RE: TCM needling and Individual experiences and Yi [Intention]

[Guest guest]

Hi Salvador, Doc, Benjamin, & All,

 

IMO, based on YOUR (personal) experiences, ALL of you have

valid comments. However, IMO, Doc's reminder of the importance

of Yi (Intention) is critical.

 

In the sentence that follows this one, I assume that all successful

therapists have at least BASIC (if not advanced) professional skill,

professional knowledge [thinking format] and empathy with the

patient. That said, I agree with Doc, Are Thoresen, and many

others that Yi (focused / directed INTENTION, based on LOVE -

genuine and compassionate desire to help or heal) is the single

most important aspect of healing in ANY medical modality.

 

IMO, this explains WHY different successful practitioners use

different needling techniques, including NOT NEEDLING (as in

external Qigong, or Qi-transmission).

 

I agree also with Benjamin that heavy-handed needling causes

many western patients react adversely. I learned THAT lesson very

quickly when I tried it in Irish (human) patients after my return from

Taiwan in 1980. I had more " needle shock " in the first few weeks of

using the stronger needling method than I had in my previous 6-7

years' experience of acupuncture. Therefore, I abandoned heavy

needling and reverted to gentle methods [insertion with minimal

needle manipulation).

 

Best regards,

Phil

 

PS: For more reading on Yi / Intention in TCM, see:

 

1. A Chi Kung (Qi Gong) Primer by Bruce Eichelberger

http://www.acupuncture.com/QiKung/ChiPri.htm [he quoted a most

interesting lesson from the Zen poet, Basho: " Do not seek to follow

in the footsteps of the men of old, seek [instead] what they sought. "

 

2. ACUPUNCTURE AND INTENTION: NEEDLING WITHOUT

NEEDLES Michael T Greenwood at:

www.medicalacupuncture.com/aama_marf/journal/Vol11_1/five.html

 

Greenwood says: " The notion of " intention, " in conjunction with

needle insertion, is an example. We can learn a point's location

and with a modicum of training, almost anyone can insert a needle

into a correct location. But is that all there is to it? Are correct

diagnoses and treatment formulas the foundation of acupuncture?

Or is there something transpiring behind the ritual of acupuncture

that accounts for many of the effects? "

He goes on todiscuss the importance of INTENTION.

 

3. Intention and Touch by John Upledger, DO, OMM, at:

http://www.massagetoday.com/archives/2002/05/12.html

 

One of my first windows into the impact of intention opened in the

late '60s,... He goes on to discuss intention in massage,

acupuncture & osteopathy ...

 

4. Chinese philosophy and Chinese medicine, by Richard

Blackwell, Principal of the Northern College of Acupuncture in

York, at: http://www.chinese-medicine.co.uk/articles/philos.htm

Blackwell says: " One aspect of this is the ongoing discussion in

the Chinese literature over the millenia about the importance of

" intention " (yi) in medicine. The famous Chinese doctor of the 7th

century, Sun Si Miao, said " medicine is intention " . Volker Scheid

and Dan Bensky describe the development of intention as " a

process of self-cultivation rather than mere knowledge creation . .

..[which] can be fed by . . . poetry and calligraphy, by biomedical

knowledge and by meditative contemplation . . . [and which is] a

social process guided by and rooted in tradition " . Scheid and

Bensky (1998), referring to the discussion of yi in the Yi Jing (the

Book of Changes, " I Ching " in the Wade-Giles transliteration), write

that " yi . . . . is that whereby one searches out profundity and

studies the all encompassing to arrive at complete understanding .

.. . . It is a process with its own trajectory or natural flow that

follows a path or dao by the exploration of subtle resonances and

the weighing of imponderables which result in complete and

penetrating insight into the totality of a situation " . Scheid and

Bensky conclude that " for many leading physicians in the history

of Chinese medicine, their ability to help their patients, their

movement toward healing power, was located in and derived from

yi. "

 

5. How do Homeopathy and Acupuncture really work?: An

important mechanism in Homeopathy and Acupuncture and its

importance and implications in Veterinary medicine, by Are

Thoresen, at:

http://www.vetlab.co.uk/voodoo/thoresen.html

 

Ignore the sarcastic introduction to Are's article by a sceptical

commentator. Read the full article and decide for yourself. IMO, it

is well written and very thought-provoking.

 

See also essays by Volker Scheid & Dan Bensky on Yi/Intention

in medicine.

 

The Beatles song went: " All you need is Love, Love, Love ... " . In

madicine, I would add ... " Love, Intention & Intuition, Knowledge,

Empathy & Mysticism " .

 

If you are interested in this idea, you may wish to join LIKEMList.

To do so, send an email to:

<LIKEMList-Subscribe >

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Salvador wrote:

> [Doc], It it my experience over many years ... that needle

> direction is very much 'provable'. One of the best places to prove

> this theory is GV20. I am not suggesting indiscriminate use of the

> point ... but I have many times placed and turned a needle in GV20

> and the person has immediately felt dizzy and as though they were

> losing the plot. On turning the needle in the other direction the

> patient has immediately revived and become focused. ... I have

> experienced this many times on the CV Channel and even on the

> meridians. Invariably this is more clearly noted when the meridian

> involved is one of the Root meridians and is in severe disharmony

> and we go in the contrary direction to that which is required for

> health. More interesting perhaps is the fact that I can create the

> same effect by using Qi energy in an either clockwise /

> anticlockwise direction. Which to me (and to my patietns) proves

> beyond doubt that both pysically and energetically the meridians

> and acupuncture points will respond to direction of flow. I was

> initially taught about physically stimulating the needle in an

> energetic up /down movement to create an effect. But I was never

> able to prove that it was necessary, as more than adequate

> healing efects can be produced by the simple turning of the needle

> in the appropriate direction. the opposite is also true and

> provable that inserting needles in the wrong meridians in the wrong

> direction will also generate dis-ease. salvador

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Doc wrote:

> Hola Salvador, With the exception of the effect on some very few

> points my experience has been quite different. I have found that

> the amount of manipulation makes much more difference towards

> effect than the direction of manipulation. I have also found

> that although my tradition differs from the mainstream TCM

> tradition in terms of directions of the needles themselves and

> tonification / dispersion effect both traditions seem to get the

> desired results. Sifu Chen used to say that the pure intention of

> the practitioner is more important than technique and point

> combinations. Doc

 

Doc also wrote:

> In my experience, TCM overstates the importance of physical

> manipulation of needles ... The current teaching of TCM certainly

> teaches some unprovable ideas about the importance of direction of

> turning a needle or of up and down manipulation in terms of

> tonification and dipersal.

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Benjamin Hawes wrote:

> I do not discount ideas of CM at all, when it comes to treating

> psychoemotional issues. I have had great success using Chinese

> medicine - understood as medicine derived from the Chinese

> classics/texts and lineages - but less success using techniques

> belonging specifically to institutionalized TCM. In other words,

> [heavy-handed] needling techniques scared away most of my

> patients. Also, the ones who stayed often got adverse reactions to

> the heavy-handed needling taught in my TCM needling. [it was only

> when] I switched to fine needles with minimum/no stimulation (with

> no classic De Qi perceived by the patient, just my own perception

> of " catching the fish " ) that I started to have good responses. Of

> course, if someone has a torn rotator cuff, I pull out the 2 " 30

> gauge harpoons, but, in my humble, limited experience, and in the

> experience of many of my fellow practitioners, the " big hammer "

> approach of modern TCM is not conducive to positive results for

> anxious / sensitive American patients. Benjamin

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "

[Guest guest]

Hi Salvador, Doc, Benjamin, & All,

 

IMO, based on YOUR (personal) experiences, ALL of you have

valid comments. However, IMO, Doc's reminder of the importance

of Yi (Intention) is critical.

 

In the sentence that follows this one, I assume that all successful

therapists have at least BASIC (if not advanced) professional skill,

professional knowledge [thinking format] and empathy with the

patient. That said, I agree with Doc, Are Thoresen, and many

others that Yi (focused / directed INTENTION, based on LOVE -

genuine and compassionate desire to help or heal) is the single

most important aspect of healing in ANY medical modality.

_

 

Hi Phil and All

 

Let me be a total pain in the a.. and disagree.

 

 

I mentioned this example some time back. I had this 2 brothers and I

confused the notes of one brother for the other. Previous to meeting

him that evening I had already decided what I would do for him as a

result of the previous treatment.

 

My intention was good. My Love was genuine my fous was spot on,

unfortunately so was my skill at finding the points. Because, I had

mistakenly picked up his brother's notes and after an extremely

causal glance I proceed to tonify some points on his back.

 

He immediately had a severe muscle spasm on his back and didn't feel

so good. His response was odd, I looked at my notes and realized I had

mistaken him for his brother. I attempted to undo the damage but he

still had a rough time for a week.

 

 

Now I have experienced my mistakes many times over the years and the

result of my experiences to date is . My Focus is very strong, my

ability to command Qi is better than average. and If I stick a needle

in a wrong point or in the right point but in the wrong direction my

patient is going to suffer regardless of how well meaning I am.

 

IMO the reason for this is that we exist in diferent worlds with

diferent Laws applying to each. The Laws of Mind are totally different

from physical Laws. When the 2 operate in harmony great things may be

acomplished but if the internal Fascia in a particular meridian is

distorting an internal organ in a clockwise direction no amount of

Mind Intent is going to unwind that Fascia if the result of my needles

is physically increasing the clockwise pull.

 

salvador

[Guest guest]

Hi Salvador,

 

 

> My intention was good. My Love was genuine my fous was spot on,

> unfortunately so was my skill at finding the points. Because, I had

> mistakenly picked up his brother's notes and after an extremely

> causal glance I proceed to tonify some points on his back.

>

 

For me, proper Intention on the client/patient is understanding that

client as the client exists " today " . When I begin a tuina session, my

intention is entirely on the energetic state and physical state of the

person. I ask how the person feels, what feels painful and what feels

hard and stuck. I palpate the whole body search for areas of

obstruction. My placing my whole Attention and Intention on what is

happening at that moment, allows me to proceed. If a place is O.K,

then I do not manipulate. If it is not O.K (painful, hard, twisted),

then I manipulate - based upon how the client is responding at that

moment. With this approach, Attention and Intention become paramount.

There is simply nothing else.

 

I realize that this approach is different from others, but it is how I

view the concepts of Attention and Intention.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Hi All, & Salvador,

 

I wrote earlier:

> Hi Salvador, Doc, Benjamin, & All, IMO, based on YOUR (personal)

> experiences, ALL of you have valid comments. However, IMO, Doc's

> reminder of the importance of Yi (Intention) is critical. In the

> sentence that follows this one, I assume that all successful

> therapists have at least BASIC (if not advanced) professional

> skill, professional knowledge [thinking format] and empathy with

> the patient. That said, I agree with Doc, Are Thoresen, and many

> others that Yi (focused / directed INTENTION, based on LOVE -

> genuine and compassionate desire to help or heal) is the single

> most important aspect of healing in ANY medical modality.

 

Salvador replied:

> Hi Phil and All, Let me be a total pain in the a.. and disagree.

> I mentioned this example some time back. I had this 2 brothers and

> I confused the notes of one brother for the other. Previous to

> meeting him that evening I had already decided what I would do for

> him as a result of the previous treatment. My intention was good.

> My Love was genuine my fous was spot on, unfortunately so was my

> skill at finding the points. Because, I had mistakenly picked up

> his brother's notes and after an extremely causal glance I

> proceed to tonify some points on his back. He immediately had a

> severe muscle spasm on his back and didn't feel so good. His

> response was odd, I looked at my notes and realized I had mistaken

> him for his brother. I attempted to undo the damage but he still

> had a rough time for a week. Now I have experienced my mistakes

> many times over the years and the result of my experiences to date

> is . My Focus is very strong, my ability to command Qi is better

> than average. and If I stick a needle in a wrong point or in the

> right point but in the wrong direction my patient is going to

> suffer regardless of how well meaning I am. IMO the reason for this

> is that we exist in diferent worlds with diferent Laws applying to

> each. The Laws of Mind are totally different from physical Laws.

> When the 2 operate in harmony great things may be acomplished but

> if the internal Fascia in a particular meridian is distorting an

> internal organ in a clockwise direction no amount of Mind Intent is

> going to unwind that Fascia if the result of my needles is

> physically increasing the clockwise pull. salvador

 

I hear you, brother. And I do not doubt your reality.

 

But you and I are 2 frogs in 2 different wells. If we could share the

SAME well, we might experience the same things. Otherwise, we

must just listen to each other without really experiencing what the

other has said.

 

We are like the blind men who bumped into the sleeping elephant;

we met the same reality, but had different experiences of it.

 

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "

[Guest guest]

> I hear you, brother. And I do not doubt your reality.

>

> But you and I are 2 frogs in 2 different wells. If we could share the

> SAME well, we might experience the same things. Otherwise, we

> must just listen to each other without really experiencing what the

> other has said.

>

> We are like the blind men who bumped into the sleeping elephant;

> we met the same reality, but had different experiences of it.

>

>

>

> Best regards,

>

------------------

 

HI Phil,

 

Are you suggesting that because each of us views 'truth from a

different part of the valley' that therefore the laws of Physics and

the Laws of Mind are also unique for each of us?

 

are you also suggesting going back to your own cliches? that we are

foreever doomed to view the world from inside our individual well?.

 

Could it be that only those who are unable/ unwilling or unaware to

climb out of their well assume that it must be true for others also.

 

It seems to me that mixing metaphors can lead to greater confussion,

This surely has been a push behind western science , to come to a

concesus through experimentation, to separate 'what I beleive' from

'what I can prove'.

 

And I can 'prove' all the statements that I share on acupuncture on

this forum, because I am sorry to say, I have the 'bodies' behind me

to prove it.

 

Salvador

[Guest guest]

AhHo Salvador,

 

salvador_march <salvador_march wrote

>>Are you suggesting that because each of us views 'truth from a

different part of the valley' that therefore the laws of Physics and

the Laws of Mind are also unique for each of us?<

 

Many Physicists would say exactly that following the study of Quantum (SP?)

Physics (read the Dancing Wu Li Masters or see What the Bleep) and many Taoists

would concurr.

 

 

>It seems to me that mixing metaphors can lead to greater confussion,

This surely has been a push behind western science , to come to a

concesus through experimentation, to separate 'what I beleive' from

'what I can prove'.<

 

I reject the incredibley culturaly biased mess called *western science* as being

anything but scientific!

 

 

 

>And I can 'prove' all the statements that I share on acupuncture on

this forum, because I am sorry to say, I have the 'bodies' behind me

to prove it.<

 

 

 

Salvador, i am not sure what you mean by this but must point out that you have

made statements that i and others in our profesion disprove daily with our

patients.

 

 

 

I would also point out thatt not all frogs who think they have climbed out of

the well really have. ;-) and i love mixed metaphors... or was that mixed drinks

 

Doc

[Guest guest]

Hi Salvador and Doc et. al,

 

I think that the Laws of Physics, and I am referring to Quantum

Physics, _may_ pertain to all of us (there are certaintly multiple

interpretations of what Quantum Physics means) .. but these laws seem

to indicate is that that what we " perceive " and " how we interpret " are

different for each of us - as well as being highly uncertain, since

the act of perceiving not only affects the event but is literally part

of it. Pretty interesting stuff, but right in line with what the

Daoists observed centuries ago. That is, we are part of everything not

neutral, seperated observers.

 

In regards to the Laws of the Mind, I am not aware of any. So maybe

someone can elaborate. As far as I know, the nature of the Mind

(Consciousness) is usually discussed as a matter of philosophy. But I

may be wrong. Is there such as thing as Laws of the Mind?

 

Regards,

Rich

 

 

> salvador_march <salvador_march@h...> wrote

> >>Are you suggesting that because each of us views 'truth from a

> different part of the valley' that therefore the laws of Physics and

> the Laws of Mind are also unique for each of us?<

>

> Many Physicists would say exactly that following the study of

Quantum (SP?) Physics (read the Dancing Wu Li Masters or see What the

Bleep) and many Taoists would concurr.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil

 

I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. One more thing--could it

be that intention does not so much power our treatments directly as

it creates receptiveness in our patients? Just like when argueing

our points in a discussion, when we " suggest " or needle or listen to

our patients with loving intention, THEY create the emotional

environment in themselves to " receive " the treatment or hear our

point of view (this environment being completely

biological/neurotransmitter mediated). I wonder if when a patient

(or discussion mate) cannot be made " receptive " that perhaps no

point of view/treatment would be " heard " or received. This is not to

say that diff dx does not matter--the patient may be receptive, but

the treatment could still not work if our thinking is wrong. But it

seems that receptivity created by loving/healing intention

communicated to the patient in so many ways could optimise our

results.

Comments?

 

Shanna

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

<@e...> wrote:

> Hi Salvador, Doc, Benjamin, & All,

>

> IMO, based on YOUR (personal) experiences, ALL of you have

> valid comments. However, IMO, Doc's reminder of the importance

> of Yi (Intention) is critical.

>

> In the sentence that follows this one, I assume that all

successful

> therapists have at least BASIC (if not advanced) professional

skill,

> professional knowledge [thinking format] and empathy with the

> patient. That said, I agree with Doc, Are Thoresen, and many

> others that Yi (focused / directed INTENTION, based on LOVE -

> genuine and compassionate desire to help or heal) is the single

> most important aspect of healing in ANY medical modality.

>

> IMO, this explains WHY different successful practitioners use

> different needling techniques, including NOT NEEDLING (as in

> external Qigong, or Qi-transmission).

>

> I agree also with Benjamin that heavy-handed needling causes

> many western patients react adversely. I learned THAT lesson very

> quickly when I tried it in Irish (human) patients after my return

from

> Taiwan in 1980. I had more " needle shock " in the first few weeks

of

> using the stronger needling method than I had in my previous 6-7

> years' experience of acupuncture. Therefore, I abandoned heavy

> needling and reverted to gentle methods [insertion with minimal

> needle manipulation).

>

> Best regards,

> Phil

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi All

it is not my intention to rub anyone the wrong way.

Ultimately we all define the universe around us by our acquired belief

systems and hopefully by the testing of these through our experiences

and willingly dropping them if not adequate.

 

My issues, which I grapple with often and which I encourage those of

you interested to contemplate with me are these. Does my experience

define truth? ( I am forever redrawing the map!)

 

Since I have only my life experiences to draw from I look at my life,

the lives of my patients and the professional lives of many

acupuncturists I have met personally and through patients coming to me

from other acupuncturists.

 

As many of you know I have previously been treated with acupuncture

for many years to the detriment of my health by many 'masters of

acupuncture'. These people had good intent, and specialised in the

sending of Qi and activating the spiritual qualities which supposedly

are inherent within an acupuncture point. So why did I continue to get

sick worse and worse?

 

What about all the patients that have come my way after years of wrong

treatment in 5 Element, TCM and Herbs? How is that possible if our

Intention is sufficient upon itself?

 

I myself, also with the best of intentions did the same to others.

For sure they liked coming to talk with me and thought they were

getting better in some ways. And it took me quite a while to begin to

notice the ways in which I was instrumental in making them worse,

(that's another story) In fact, when I was extremely incompetent I was

the busiest I have ever been in my practice for many a year.

 

So for me, Intention is a prerequisite but unless my theoretical

framework is also reasonably accurate then no amount of good

intention will make the patient healthy.

 

Of course, this conversation is fraught with difficulties. Many of us

seem to have different theories to explain what goes on with our

patients, and then there is the issue of how and where we place

needles in people to effect a cure.

 

I say, if a house is wired for electricity with multiple switches that

may be switched on from different locations. It is easy to come up

with different theories to explain how the electricity flows, But

unless one understand the whole layout (unified theory) then sometimes

the switches works and sometimes they light lights in other parts of

the building. I hire a school hall for my classes and there are 12

switches on the wall attached to many others on the staircases. I

always get confused as I end up switching lights in the wrong places.

 

All the patients that have come my way from other acupuncturist left

behind a professional that believed they were doing good work and that

their theories were good. How do we know that we are good at what we

do? what is our criteria?

 

If I cure one person's headaches and then they get thrush in the

vagina is that coincidence? What if they develop tinititus or oedema

in the legs after a few sessions of sticking some needles in the Kid

meridian? Will I question my theory or rub my hands that I caught the

person just in time? esp. since the person has told me that they have

more get up and go now? What if I cure someone's knee pain but then

they get a bronchial flue or have a bout of diarrhoea? Time of year,

dodgy food? What if The person exhibits a definite lack of Joy and I

am convinced they are a fire C.F . they love the treatments but after

5 sessions they develop antihistamine reactions to certain vegetables

or materials? Healing crisis? Or is that just life?.

 

We go to a doctor because we have indigestion he gives us a standard

quemical recipe which he will give to every patient that comes his

ways, it works, we are grateful, but after a while constipation begins

to set in. we go to an acupuncturist we complain of indigestion he

looks it up in his 'formula' book and does the points as laid down.

What is the difference? Where is the acknowledgement of the individual

needs?do we question any symptoms that arise? Do we even ask the

patient exaustively for all the presenting symptoms and keep tabs?

 

So then I get to the point is which I am going to stick a needle in a

person Does it matter which way I turn it? Well... we haven't even

got a unified theory at the physical level, let alone at the

energetic level out there in the field but I say it does. How do I

know? Because of the 'bodies trailing my wake which I claim I can

prove. So I will exit with one example.

 

A young woman, very insecure has tried to commit suicide a couple of

times I make my diagnosis hardly no symptoms at the physical level to

go on I diagnose her as Def. Gallballder and Excess Pericardium (I

don't have my notes here but I think this is so) She comes back the

week after, she has made another attempt her mother concurred with

her daughter that the treatment had been good , that she had been more

loving and emotionally in touch, but then they had a big row and

tempers flared. I note that there is a blood in the white of one eye

and they say it has been there a few days. I ponder on this and

rethink my strategy which subsequently proved accurate, I had been

wrong! I should have sedated the Gall bladder Meridian and tonified

the Pericardium.

 

So, does it matter which way I turned the needle? It very much does to

her. What about my good Intention and focus? Could someone else had

treated her effectively by flicking switches else where? I guess will

never know, But I was the 3rd acupuncturist she'd tried.

 

If you have bothered to read the above you may think me arrogant you

are probably right, I don't mean to be, I share my experiences as

they are. I am disturbed by my perceived levels of unquestioning

dogma in the acupuncture profession as a whole and I wish for all of

us a greater critical attitude beginning with what I have shared –not

a problem for most of you I am sure.

 

salvador

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Rich "

<rfinkelstein@a...> wrote:

> Hi Salvador and Doc et. al,

 

> In regards to the Laws of the Mind, I am not aware of any. So maybe

> someone can elaborate. As far as I know, the nature of the Mind

> (Consciousness) is usually discussed as a matter of philosophy. But I

> may be wrong. Is there such as thing as Laws of the Mind?

>

> Regards,

> Rich

------------------------

 

Hi Rich,

 

IMO Most certainly, for example A law of physics says that IF I want

to come and visit you amongs other things I will have to use a plane

and there will be a number of hours from my wish to the execution of

my wish.

 

Where as Mind has no such limitation If I had a picture of you to

focus on I could be with you at the speed of thought .ie. instantly.

Not physically of course because that comes under diferent Laws.

 

salvador

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " salvador_march "

<salvador_march@h...> wrote:

>

Hi Salvador,

 

Certainly lots of things to reflect upon, all of which effect the way

we view and practice Chinese/Asian medicine.

 

>

> My issues, which I grapple with often and which I encourage those of

> you interested to contemplate with me are these. Does my experience

> define truth? ( I am forever redrawing the map!)

 

I guess to answer this question would require a definition of " truth " .

However, since I am also forever redrawing the map ... as is everyone

else since ancient times, my guess is there is no such thing as

" truth " in the way most people will probably take it to mean -

something that is " true for all " . But I am sure there are lots of

people who believe otherwise.

>

> So why did I continue to get sick worse and worse? What about all

the patients that have come my way after years of wrong treatment in 5

Element, TCM and Herbs? How is that possible if our Intention is

sufficient upon itself?

 

The way I see it, is if both the practitioner and patient had

appropriate Attention and Intention, they would have both realized

that things were going the wrong way. If they realized it, they would

have both chosen to Change something - maybe an entirely different

doctor and/or modality. There is one solution for everyone. The I

believe the Uncertainty between patient and doctor always exists and

it is up to one or both of them to " change directions " when it is not

working out. I am always changing my relationships in order to effect

Change.

 

> And it took me quite a while to begin to

> notice the ways in which I was instrumental in making them worse,

> (that's another story) In fact, when I was extremely incompetent I

>was the busiest I have ever been in my practice for many a year.

 

Yes, the Universe is funny. There is no way to predict what " works "

and what doesn't. Maybe the patient wasn't really " looking to get

well " . Maybe you were offering exactly what they wanted and it was

fine with them ... even if they were getting worse. Look at all of the

people who keep going back to WM doctors even though they are getting

worse and worse and worse. For them - and I mean doctor and patient -

it is fine. I see this in all activities in my life, not just

medicine. There is no predicting what relationships really do work out

and why. Marriage is a very good example. :-)

>

> So for me, Intention is a prerequisite but unless my theoretical

> framework is also reasonably accurate then no amount of good

> intention will make the patient healthy.

 

I also have a framework, but mine works for me. It may or may not work

for other people. And when I discover something different that I like

more, then I will change the framework. Hopefully my clients will

agree that the change is worthwhile.

>

> Of course, this conversation is fraught with difficulties. Many of us

> seem to have different theories to explain what goes on with our

> patients, and then there is the issue of how and where we place

> needles in people to effect a cure.

 

Yes, I also noticed how everyone does it differently. And not just in

medicine. Every teacher or practitioner I have ever met in any field

does it differently - and each one believed that their way was

" right " . It is very ironic. So I don't look to copy other people. I

just kind of figure out what works best for me ... in singing,

dancing, taiji, qigong, tennis, tuina, whatever .. it is all the same.

Figuring it out what works best for myself.

>

 

> All the patients that have come my way from other acupuncturist left

> behind a professional that believed they were doing good work and that

> their theories were good. How do we know that we are good at what we

> do? what is our criteria?

 

My guess what they were doing was good for some people and not for

others. The people that it was good for might not even be experiencing

better help. They were just getting from the practitioner what they

were looking for - maybe some comfort that they were OK as a person -

and that was enough. I just see things as everyone is is different,

and every relationship is different. Who's to say which relationship

is better than others.

>

>What if The person exhibits a definite lack of Joy and I

> am convinced they are a fire C.F . they love the treatments but

>after 5 sessions they develop antihistamine reactions to certain

>vegetables or materials? Healing crisis? Or is that just life?.

 

Personally, I observe emotions and the direction of " healing " . Does

the patient say that they are " feeling " better? Is better inside and

are the problems moving out towards the extremities? This is how I

observe and it fits my theoretical framework that the body is trying

to " move energy " and clean itself out (Herings Law) from the inside -

the most valuable part of the body, that is Consciousness itself - to

the outside - the most expendable part of the body. It works for me

right now. I am sure others see it differently.

>

 

> So then I get to the point is which I am going to stick a needle in > a

> person Does it matter which way I turn it? Well... we haven't even

> got a unified theory at the physical level, let alone at the

> energetic level out there in the field but I say it does. How do I

> know? Because of the 'bodies trailing my wake which I claim I can

> prove. So I will exit with one example.

 

I personally do not think so for me, but if you and the patient

" agree " on this concept, then it probably does matter. That is from

where the relationship begins. Intention is a funny thing and I

believe it does create its own meaning as it Unfolds.

>

 

> If you have bothered to read the above you may think me arrogant you

> are probably right,

 

I don't see " questioning " as being arrogant. I think it is what Life

is all about. And we are all players in the Game. :-)

 

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me,

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

salvador_march wrote:

> <snip>

 

I wish for all of

> us a greater critical attitude beginning with what I have shared –not

> a problem for most of you I am sure.

 

Hi Salvador!

 

I have been working on an information system to keep an acupuncturist's

treatment records on disk locally, and share them as case studies

(without personal info, of course) with the whole profession over the

web as well. After a few years it would be possible to do empirical

statistical research with the database, which would facilitate the

criticism you think is needed.

 

No where near ready to roll it out, though.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen

<petet@a...> wrote:

> salvador_march wrote:

> > <snip>

>

 

> I have been working on an information system to keep an acupuncturist's

> treatment records on disk locally, and share them as case studies

> (without personal info, of course) with the whole profession over the

> web as well. After a few years it would be possible to do empirical

> statistical research with the database, which would facilitate the

> criticism you think is needed.

>

> No where near ready to roll it out, though.

>

> Regards,

>

> Pete

 

----

HI Pete,

 

Me thinks you have set yourself up a mammoth task, I wish you all the

best.

 

salvador

[Guest guest]

(Salvador) Hi All it is not my intention to rub anyone the wrong way.

Ultimately we all define the universe around us by our acquired belief systems

and hopefully by the testing of these through our experiences and willingly

dropping them if not adequate.

 

(Ming) To me, this is the sign of an open and inquisitive mind. I can't

imagine this would rub anyone the wrong way.

 

(Salvador) My issues, which I grapple with often and which I encourage those of

you interested to contemplate with me are these.

 

(Ming) All of us grapple with similar issues. Some chose to hold them within

themselves, while others tend to let them out in the open. Discussion of issues

can only benefit the public and further everyone’s knowledge and hopefully

wisdom. You and everyone here are doing a very good thing.

 

(Salvador) Does my experience define truth? (I am forever redrawing the map!)

 

(Ming) Experiences can lead to us to the truth or away from it. I think the

map that you and I and the rest of us are constantly redrawing is perception.

Experiences are the foundation, and perception is our vision. Perception can

arise from experiences, and perception can determine the quality of our

experiences. Our problem is that our perceptions are almost always colored by

personal bias which can be very one-sided, and bias almost invariably leads us

away from the truth. Through process of sharing experiences and exchanging

ideas, we can reduce the influence that bias has on our perception, and

hopefully lead us back on the “right” path toward truth.

 

(Salvador) Since I have only my life experiences to draw from I look at my

life, the lives of my patients and the professional lives of many acupuncturists

I have met personally and through patients coming to me from other

acupuncturists.

 

(Ming) That’s a wealth of information right there.

 

(Salvador) As many of you know I have previously been treated with acupuncture

for many years to the detriment of my health by many 'masters of acupuncture'.

These people had good intent, and specialised in the sending of Qi and

activating the spiritual qualities which supposedly are inherent within an

acupuncture point. So why did I continue to get sick worse and worse?

 

(Ming) They did not diagnose your condition properly, and they did not take the

time to re-evaluate their diagnosis even though it should have become obvious to

them that something they were doing was not benefiting your health. Had they

re-evaluated and devised another treatment plan, things could have been better.

There were valuable lessons to be learned from this experience.

 

 

 

(Salvador) What about all the patients that have come my way after years of

wrong treatment in 5 Element, TCM and Herbs? How is that possible if our

Intention is sufficient upon itself?

 

(Ming) If “Intention” alone was sufficient, then acupuncture school would have

been a tremendous waste of time and money. It is only one aspect of a system of

medical treatment. Fundamental principles, diagnosis, point selection, needling

techniques, herbal prescriptions and trust are among other elements necessary

for an effective treatment.

 

(Salvador) I myself, also with the best of intentions did the same to others.

For sure they liked coming to talk with me and thought they were getting better

in some ways. And it took me quite a while to begin to notice the ways in which

I was instrumental in making them worse, (that's another story) In fact, when I

was extremely incompetent I was the busiest I have ever been in my practice for

many a year.

 

(Ming) I don’t think you were incompetent, although I agree that everyone’s got

a learning curve to overcome initially. Some are steeper than others. All of

us went through that same stage when we started. I think what you are actually

expressing here is your perception of your treatment techniques now versus when

you started. It’s natural to feel that you were somewhat incompetent then when

you make the comparison with how you have progressed today. I think you are

being a bit too hard on yourself here.

 

(Salvador) So for me, Intention is a prerequisite but unless my theoretical

framework is also reasonably accurate then no amount of good intention will make

the patient healthy.

 

(Ming) Can’t argue with that.

 

(Salvador) Of course, this conversation is fraught with difficulties. Many of

us seem to have different theories to explain what goes on with our patients,

and then there is the issue of how and where we place needles in people to

effect a cure.

 

(Ming) One thousand good acupuncturists will come up with one thousand

different diagnoses and treatment plans, and all of them can be equally valid as

long as the patient’s condition is treatable by our discipline and the same

condition improved dramatically as a result of the diagnosis and treatment plan.

There is more than one way to perceive truth.

 

(Salvador) I say, if a house is wired for electricity with multiple switches

that may be switched on from different locations. It is easy to come up with

different theories to explain how the electricity flows, But unless one

understand the whole layout (unified theory) then sometimes the switches works

and sometimes they light lights in other parts of the building. I hire a school

hall for my classes and there are 12 switches on the wall attached to many

others on the staircases.

 

(Ming) That’s a very interesting description of the meridian system.

 

(Salvador) I always get confused as I end up switching lights in the wrong

places.

 

(Ming) It happens from time to time, even among the best that I’ve observed.

 

(Salvador) All the patients that have come my way from other acupuncturist left

behind a professional that believed they were doing good work and that their

theories were good. How do we know that we are good at what we do? what is our

criteria?

 

(Ming) The truth lies in the comfort and the relief your patients received from

you. Your comfort zone with certain technique(s) or theories determines which

one you would follow.

 

(Salvador) If I cure one person's headaches and then they get thrush in the

vagina is that coincidence? What if they develop tinititus or oedema in the

legs after a few sessions of sticking some needles in the Kid meridian? Will I

question my theory or rub my hands that I caught the person just in time? esp.

since the person has told me that they have more get up and go now? What if I

cure someone's knee pain but then they get a bronchial flue or have a bout of

diarrhoea? Time of year, dodgy food? What if The person exhibits a definite lack

of Joy and I am convinced they are a fire C.F. they love the treatments but

after 5 sessions they develop antihistamine reactions to certain vegetables or

materials? Healing crisis? Or is that just life?

 

(Ming) Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not. These are clues to how the human

system works with acupuncture. Sort them out and you will be the greatest.

Don’t forget to share the wealth with the rest of us when you have the mysteries

solved.

 

(Salvador) We go to a doctor because we have indigestion he gives us a standard

chemical recipe which he will give to every patient that comes his ways, it

works, we are grateful, but after a while constipation begins to set in. we go

to an acupuncturist we complain of indigestion he looks it up in his 'formula'

book and does the points as laid down.

What is the difference? Where is the acknowledgement of the individual needs? do

we question any symptoms that arise? Do we even ask the patient exaustively for

all the presenting symptoms and keep tabs?

 

(Ming) The acupuncturist you just described here is either amateurish or a

rookie. Many of us in this forum are much better than that. The difference is

in the approach, and vast majority of us here in the forum do acknowledge

individual needs one way or another. Part of how we accomplish them is by

asking these questions that you’ve laid out above, and they are part of the TCM

diagnosis regiment.

 

(Salvador) So then I get to the point is which I am going to stick a needle in

a person. Does it matter which way I turn it? Well... we haven't even got a

unified theory at the physical level, let alone at the energetic level out there

in the field but I say it does.

 

(Ming) There are other methods of needle manipulation, and turning them is just

one of the ways. Nevertheless, I would imagine that my colleague who practices

this form of needle manipulation would tend to agree with you on this.

 

(Salvador) How do I know? Because of the 'bodies trailing my wake which I claim

I can prove. So I will exit with one example.

 

A young woman, very insecure has tried to commit suicide a couple of times I

make my diagnosis hardly no symptoms at the physical level to go on I diagnose

her as Def. Gallballder and Excess Pericardium (I don't have my notes here but I

think this is so) She comes back the week after, she has made another attempt

her mother concurred with her daughter that the treatment had been good, that

she had been more loving and emotionally in touch, but then they had a big row

and

tempers flared. I note that there is a blood in the white of one eye and they

say it has been there a few days. I ponder on this and rethink my strategy

which subsequently proved accurate, I had been wrong! I should have sedated the

Gall bladder Meridian and tonified the Pericardium.

 

So, does it matter which way I turned the needle? It very much does to her.

What about my good Intention and focus? Could someone else had treated her

effectively by flicking switches else where? I guess will never know, But I was

the 3rd acupuncturist she'd tried.

 

(Ming) Good intention and focus are only a part of what makes the whole thing

work. Accurate diagnosis and a good set of point combination are also vital to

the success of an acupuncture treatment. As I have mentioned before, there are

as many right answers out there for one patient as there are good

acupuncturists, and you found one for her. It's obvious here that you have

applied the lessons learned from the experiences with people who made you worse.

 

(Salvador) If you have bothered to read the above you may think me arrogant you

are probably right, I don't mean to be, I share my experiences as they are. I

am disturbed by my perceived levels of unquestioning dogma in the acupuncture

profession as a whole and I wish for all of us a greater critical attitude

beginning with what I have shared –not a problem for most of you I am sure.

 

(Ming) I don’t see arrogance here, but I do sense some levels of unquestioning

dogma in the acupuncture profession.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

salvador_march wrote:

>>><snip>

>

>>I have been working on an information system to keep an acupuncturist's

>>treatment records on disk locally, and share them as case studies

>>(without personal info, of course) with the whole profession over the

>>web as well. After a few years it would be possible to do empirical

>>statistical research with the database, which would facilitate the

>>criticism you think is needed.

>>

>>No where near ready to roll it out, though.

>>

>>Regards,

>>

>>Pete

> -------------------------

> HI Pete,

>

> Me thinks you have set yourself up a mammoth task, I wish you all the

> best.

 

Hi Salvador!

 

Thanks for the encouragement, I have been working on it for nine years now.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Ming H. Lee "

<aceqihealer> wrote:

(Ming) Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not. These are clues to how the human

system works with acupuncture. Sort them out and you will be the greatest.

Don't forget to share the wealth with the rest of us when you have the

mysteries

solved.

 

 

__________

 

 

Hi Ming,

Funny you should say that. As it happens I have been working towards

a unified theory of acupuncture for many years now and I am more than

2/3rds of the way there. My theory acknoledges the value of, and

encompases within itself, 5 Element and T.C. M acupuncture but it

goes much further. It is able to predict posible out comes of

treatment as well as posible disharmonies that will arise within a

given individual at some future time. It takes into account, physical,

emotional, mental and energetics as well as family influences.

 

It has given me almost total security and conficience in treating

patients because even when I make a mistake I know where to look for

answers. I have been doing a number of workshops this year with 8

acupuncture practitioners to whom I have clinically, proved time and

again the validity of my System . I have also used the time to

improve my teaching format for next year when I hope to be able to

offer a one year post graduate course in the UK.

 

salvador