Guest guest Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 Benjamin Hawes <ben_laura wrote: >I would argue that there are many things in TCM that are no less bogus.< The same may be said of all systems of medicine including Allopathic. In fact the same may be said in any field of human endeavor. > In my experience, TCM overstates the importance of physical manipulation of needles,< The current teaching of TCM certainly teaches some unprovable ideas about the importance of direction of turning a needle or of up and down manipulation in terms of tonification and dipersal. >is piss poor when it comes to treating psychoemotional issues.< Here I very strongly disagree with you, and so would the hundreds of patients i have treated succesfully for a wide range of psychoemotional issue as would their *shrinks*. (and since so many folks seem to be using all of there initials) Ron S " Doc " Rosen OMD, DAc, LAc, FNAAOM, Dipl Ac, Dipl CH,DD etc. ;-) " The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. " -- Albert Einstein Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Enter now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 Chinese Medicine , Doc <Doc@s...> wrote: > > > Benjamin Hawes <ben_laura@n...> wrote: > > >I would argue that there are many things in TCM that are no less bogus.< > > The same may be said of all systems of medicine including Allopathic. In fact the same may be said in any field of human endeavor. > > > In my experience, TCM overstates the importance of physical > manipulation of needles,< > > The current teaching of TCM certainly teaches some unprovable ideas about the importance of direction of turning a needle or of up and down manipulation in terms of tonification and dipersal. ------- Hi Doc, Sorry for butting in on a subject I am largely ignorant of But I felt I couldn't let the comment on needles go by unchecked. It it my experience over many years of experimentation that needle direction is very much 'provable' One of the best places to prove this theory is DU-20 . I am not suggesting indiscriminate use of the point to prove a point (no pun intended). But I have many a time placed and turned a needle in DU-20 and the person has immediately felt dizzy and as though they were losing the plot. On turning the needle in the other direction the patient has immediately revived and become focussed. Over the years I have experienced this many a time on the Ren- channel and even on the meridians. Invariably this is more clearly noted when the meridian involved is one of the Root meridians and is in severe disharmony and we go in the contrary direction to that which is required for health. More interesting perhaps is the fact that I can create the same effect by using Qi energy in an either clockwise / anticlockwise direction. Which to me (and to my patietns) proves beyond doubt that both pysically and energetically the meridians and acupuncture points will respond to direction of flow. I was initially taught about physically stimulating the needle in an energetic up /down movement to create an effect. But I was never able to prove that it was necessary, as more than adequate healing efects can be produced by the simple turning of the needle in the appropriate direction. the opposite is also true and provable that inserting needles in the wrong meridians in the wrong direction will also generate dis-ease. salvador Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 Hola Salvador, With the exception of the effect on some very few points my experience has been quite different. I have found that the amount of manipulation makes much more difference towards effect than the direction of manipulation. I have also found that although my tradition differs from the mainstream TCM tradition in terms of directions of the needles themselves and tonification / dispersion effect both traditions seem to get the desired results. Sifu Chen used to say that the pure intention of the practitioner is more important than technique and point combinations. Doc salvador_march <salvador_march wrote: Chinese Medicine , Doc <Doc@s...> wrote: > > > Benjamin Hawes <ben_laura@n...> wrote: > > >I would argue that there are many things in TCM that are no less bogus.< > > The same may be said of all systems of medicine including Allopathic. In fact the same may be said in any field of human endeavor. > > > In my experience, TCM overstates the importance of physical > manipulation of needles,< > > The current teaching of TCM certainly teaches some unprovable ideas about the importance of direction of turning a needle or of up and down manipulation in terms of tonification and dipersal. ------- Hi Doc, Sorry for butting in on a subject I am largely ignorant of But I felt I couldn't let the comment on needles go by unchecked. It it my experience over many years of experimentation that needle direction is very much 'provable' One of the best places to prove this theory is DU-20 . I am not suggesting indiscriminate use of the point to prove a point (no pun intended). But I have many a time placed and turned a needle in DU-20 and the person has immediately felt dizzy and as though they were losing the plot. On turning the needle in the other direction the patient has immediately revived and become focussed. Over the years I have experienced this many a time on the Ren- channel and even on the meridians. Invariably this is more clearly noted when the meridian involved is one of the Root meridians and is in severe disharmony and we go in the contrary direction to that which is required for health. More interesting perhaps is the fact that I can create the same effect by using Qi energy in an either clockwise / anticlockwise direction. Which to me (and to my patietns) proves beyond doubt that both pysically and energetically the meridians and acupuncture points will respond to direction of flow. I was initially taught about physically stimulating the needle in an energetic up /down movement to create an effect. But I was never able to prove that it was necessary, as more than adequate healing efects can be produced by the simple turning of the needle in the appropriate direction. the opposite is also true and provable that inserting needles in the wrong meridians in the wrong direction will also generate dis-ease. salvador Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 salvador_march wrote: <snip> > I have many a time placed and turned a needle in DU-20 and the person > has immediately felt dizzy and as though they were losing the plot. > On turning the needle in the other direction the patient has > immediately revived and become focussed. Hi Salvador! Dare I ask, which way for dizzy and which way for focused? Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen <petet@a...> wrote: > salvador_march wrote: > <snip> > > > I have many a time placed and turned a needle in DU-20 and the person > > has immediately felt dizzy and as though they were losing the plot. > > On turning the needle in the other direction the patient has > > immediately revived and become focussed. > > Hi Salvador! > > Dare I ask, which way for dizzy and which way for focused? > > Regards, > > Pete ___________ Hi Pete, I'd hate for you to follow in my foot steps, far too many bodies to climb over! The short answer is that there is no rule for right or wrong way. It very much depends on the individual needs. These days I would not dare to presume that I know which direction to turn a needle in, without checking it out energetically first. But talking of DU-20 which IMO is way over used I will share an example of appropriate use at the level of the Spirit Because it happened to me a few moths back. this patient whom I had not seen for ages came to me out of the blue because for 2 weeks she had been plaged with horrrible headaches which neither doctor, chiropractor nor drugs could touch. I knew that one of her Root Meridians was a Tendency for excess ST energy and she did have a number of small complaints that pointed in this direction. I assumed this would be where the problem lay. As I sedated a number of points on her ST meridian she had a little releif but not really that significant. We chatted, as one does, and she shared how for the last 6 months she had becomed consumed with spiritual books, angels, etc., This was my clue and set me wondering, so I energetically tested her chackric centers and there it was, massive problems with her 7th chackra. I lightly touched DU-20 and made the point spiral anti-clockwise the headache begun to subdide immediately. I followed this with a needle, and headache was gone completely like it had never been there. What was the explanation? in my opinion this person had energetic emotional blocks in her relations to herself and Life? shas been for a long time a, 'blamer for her ills', on the universe. her focus for the past six months had increased the amount of energy to her 7th Chackra but she had a bottleneck and the ensuing energetic pressure was experienced by her as a continuos headache. salvador P.S. there seems to be an increasing fashion in our group to add little sayings that reflect our ...where we are at? levels of wiseness? I shall be just as trendy and do no less Here goes: " I am not completely mad! some bits of me are missing " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 Chinese Medicine , Doc <Doc@s...> wrote: > Hola Salvador, > With the exception of the effect on some very few points my experience has been quite different. I have found that the amount of manipulation makes much more difference towards effect than the direction of manipulation. I have also found that although my tradition differs from the mainstream TCM tradition in terms of directions of the needles themselves and tonification / dispersion effect both traditions seem to get the desired results. > Sifu Chen used to say that the pure intention of the practitioner is more important than technique and point combinations. > > ____________________ Hi Doc, You have raised a number of issues with your last couple of mails that have been in my mind for a nmber of years. 1) if I see forty people a week in my Acupuncture practice am I therefore more effective and knowledgeable than someone who may only see 10? or put another way If I have 40 students for Taiji quan everyweek do I have greater understanding and knowledge that someone who may be lucky to only see 10 a week? 2) is intention sufficent in itself? what if my intention is tonfy a Liver which is already highly overactive will my tonification ease the internal pressure and disharmony? salvador Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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