Digest Number 605

August 17, 2004

Dear All !

There is this discussion going on on Qi gong. And I feel a little frustrated!

The critics of alternative medicine are actually right, in a real argument, I

haven't much to counter.

1Because there really is no proof of Qi gong being effective treating disease.

2There are , especially in China, many criminal elements using all the

mambojumbo Qigong spiritualism to make money and whatsoever. 3 There are

patients with severe conditions being delayed because some quacker is

prescribing herbs, putting needles and applying Qi without having an idea of

what she/he is doing. 4Most of

the research being done also lacks blinding and placebo. Research being

conducted by the " other side " (those who wish to

dump everything except 'western medicine' somewhere in the ocean), always

succeeds in proving those methods as absolutely useless in treating any kind of

disease. Making me feel a little helpless. What adds

up to the whole mess is, that there are these Qigong masters and other people

who are making a lot of money teaching all kinds of techniques on a way to

enlightment. Selling it as special exercises, drinks, devices, pillows,

Qi-machines, energized water etc.Obvious rubbish sometimes, just made to add oil

on the fires. I would like to ask what you think. I mean what is Qi

gong to you? do you give Qi to your patients? I would like to ask those who use

Qigong in their practices, whether they feel that their patients improve. Are

their any percentages of how many of your patients get better through your

treatments, no matter whether it is Qi gong, Herbs or Acupuncture. I

would suggest we come up with our own definition of what is what:

Develop a concept of what Qigong can be, how we can use it. MAybe we can find a

commonsense.(Otherwise others will do it for us and that won't look to good.)

Honestly, there are many weird people doing all kinds of weird stuff, in some

hospitals there are doctors who have no idea what they are doing.Example ,

broken neck -death after Zheng gu (bone setting)by an orthopedic TCM professor,

because he didn,t realize that the patient was suffering from a bone tumor,

causing his neck pain and severe headaches. A Qigong master, teaching

techniques to diabetics and hypertension patients, even advising them to get off

their medication. I feel the situation is getting more and more difficult.

And there are many efforts, not only in western countries to once and for all

cut down all alternative treatment methods. Definitely there is a lot to

do........

Get your free @.hk address at Mail.

August 17, 2004

Hi Steve,

> I mean what is Qi gong to you?

The way I practice, is to basically:

1) Open up physical channels in my body using simple circular-like

exercises.

2) Open and modulate mental channels in my body by using repetive

(i.e. circular) exercises such as breathing techniques

3) Observe energy flow in my body. This is a matter of increasing

" awareness " , in a manner no different than what any person involved in

any activity can accomplish over time.

4) Storing energy in my " batteries " (dantiens) by bringing my mind to

those regions.

I don't find it at all " mystical " . It is what everyone does, every day

of their life, only I may do it with greater Awareness.

2)Do you give Qi to your patients?

Depending upon one's definition of Qi, I believe it is impossible not

to give Qi because it is impossible not to exchange some form of

energy. Even pharmaceutical drugs are fundamentally Qi, - i.e.

energy). I believe it is the " resonance " of Qi that differentiates.

Call it the quantum probability wave or the String vibration.

3) I would like to ask those who use Qigong in their practices,

whether they feel that their patients improve.

Subjectively speaking (as are all thoughts), I find that people, for

the most part, react very positively to touch, warmth, and all other

types of " energetic movements " (e.g. physical and mental exercises),

if they are " open " to it. Some people are not going to like it - e.g.

" Don't come near me!! " . For those, qigong is probably not appropriate.

It will be interesting to hear other viewpoints.

Regards,

Rich

August 17, 2004

Steve,

Are you frustrated by qigong or TCM in general? I think that every

profession has practitioners that cause their practice embarassment. At the

moment in the UK there is uproar and scandal over numerous dentists carrying

out unnessary procedures. This doesn't mean that dentistry is wrong or

bad...it just means that there are bad dentists out there.

Likewise there are bad TCM practitioners, who give unethical and poor advice

to patients. This doesn't mean that TCM is bad or that Qigong is bad.

Some of your points:

1Because there really is no proof of Qi gong being effective treating

disease.

This is what many in the medical profession say about TCM in general. There

is in fact a large body of evidence that TCM and Qigong are effective at

treating disease. Sometimes we dont know why, but this is a different

issue.

2There are , especially in China, many criminal elements using all the

mambojumbo Qigong spiritualism to make money and whatsoever.

This is true and does damage the profession, but again not all practitioners

are charlatans.

3 There are patients with severe conditions being delayed because some

quacker is prescribing herbs, putting needles and applying Qi without having

an idea of what she/he is doing.

There are poor practioners in every profession

4Most of the research being done also lacks blinding and placebo.

There are a number of issues with performing research trials within a TCM

contaxt

a) The funding available for such trials is only a fraction of the

funding available to the pharmacutical industry.

b) Illness, diagnosis and consequently treatment varies greatly from

individual. For research trials each individual generaaly should receive

the same treatment, which doesnt make sense when it comes to holistic

medicine.

c) Blinding and placebo are part of TCM research trials but more

difficult to implement.

Kind regards

Dermot.

-

" steve brinkop " <littleprince_s

Tuesday, August 17, 2004 10:55 AM

Re: Digest Number 605

>

> Dear All !

>

> There is this discussion going on on Qi gong. And I feel a little

frustrated!

The critics of alternative medicine are actually right, in a real argument,

I haven't much to counter.

1Because there really is no proof of Qi gong being effective treating

disease.

2There are , especially in China, many criminal elements using all the

mambojumbo Qigong spiritualism to make money and whatsoever. 3 There

are patients with severe conditions being delayed because some quacker is

prescribing herbs, putting needles and applying Qi without having an idea of

what she/he is doing. 4Most

of the research being done also lacks blinding and placebo. Research

being conducted by the " other side " (those who wish to

> dump everything except 'western medicine' somewhere in the ocean), always

succeeds in proving those methods as absolutely useless in treating any kind

of disease. Making me feel a little helpless.

What adds up to the whole mess is, that there are these Qigong masters and

other people who are making a lot of money teaching all kinds of techniques

on a way to enlightment. Selling it as special exercises, drinks, devices,

pillows, Qi-machines, energized water etc.Obvious rubbish sometimes, just

made to add oil on the fires. I would like to ask what you think.

I mean what is Qi gong to you? do you give Qi to your patients? I would like

to ask those who use Qigong in their practices, whether they feel that their

patients improve. Are their any percentages of how many of your patients get

better through your treatments, no matter whether it is Qi gong, Herbs or

Acupuncture. I would suggest we come up with our own definition of

what is what:

> Develop a concept of what Qigong can be, how we can use it. MAybe we can

find a commonsense.(Otherwise others will do it for us and that won't look

to good.)

Honestly, there are many weird people doing all kinds of weird stuff, in

some hospitals there are doctors who have no idea what they are

doing.Example , broken neck -death after Zheng gu (bone setting)by an

orthopedic TCM professor, because he didn,t realize that the patient was

suffering from a bone tumor, causing his neck pain and severe headaches. A

Qigong master, teaching techniques to diabetics and hypertension patients,

even advising them to get off their medication. I feel the situation is

getting more and more difficult. And there are many efforts, not only in

western countries to once and for all cut down all alternative treatment

methods. Definitely there is a lot to do........

>

> Get your free @.hk address at Mail.

>

August 17, 2004

Everything stated negatively here about TCM, applies as much to WM, and actually

much much more so, because of wider prevalence of WM. Period.

1Because there really is no proof of Qi gong being effective treating disease.

This isn't true, I see it help, and as a component of tx it increases

effectiveness. Also WM is helpless treating many complaints. The trend will be

to focus on problems it can somewhat deal with and pretend the rest doesn't

exist. They aren't perfect either. Im' sure I'm not the only one who hears

story after story of a person being bounced around for years then and only ends

up with a different main complaint.

In TCM, some people recover and that is the end of it, but there are others

who, no matter who they see or have done, seem to need tx on a routine basis to

keep function high. WM has many protocols that prove to be inneffective, and

tie patient's future life to to the drug-of-the-month.

2There are , especially in China, many criminal elements using all the

mambojumbo Qigong spiritualism to make money and whatsoever.

Plenty of WM people and industries use mumbo-jumbo science and research data to

make money

Dermot O'Connor <dermot wrote: