Digest Number 595 Beer, B vits and flax oil

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/7/2004 5:55:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

eastdakota writes:

Jason,

 

I think another question one would need to ask is, is the EPA and DHA broken

down by cooking in the way that most people cook eggs? I don't know about

anyone else, but I know I'd prefer a gel cap over a raw egg any day of the

week :>

 

I tried to do some quick internet research on the subject but came up with

widely differing opinions on whether one can cook with flax seed oil (and

that's not directly analogous to cooking an egg with the same components

anyways.. are there components in eggs that would somehow affect the EPA and

DHA?).

 

I would never in a million years think of cooking flax seed oil, but I can't

say that I have any good reason for this besides my mother's admonishings.

 

And since many of the good components of flax seed oil are found in fish

oils.. and people cook fish.. who knows.

 

This reminded me of something one of my pathology professors said to me (an

M.D.).. that B-vitamin supplemented beer has come on the market. Has anyone

seen this? (The idea being that beer more than any other alcoholic beverage

supposedly leeches out of your body certain B-vitamins) I laughed and

laughed.. how wonderful, let's put ALL our vitamins in beer and have a good

time of supplementing! But....... the unfortunate news is since the beer

itself leeches the B-vitamins out, although you may be injesting them, the

beer may not be allowing you to absorb them. Tricky marketing!

 

Best,

Nadia

 

Hi Nadia,

 

I think there may have been a miscommunication with your MD professor.

Rather than beer blocks B vitamin absorption, I think he might of meant

processing the alcohol in beer requires extra B vitamins. SO even though there

are B

vitamins in beer naturally, there is a net loss of B vitamins because it

takes a greater amount of B vitamins than is in beer to process out the alcohol

of

the beer.

 

As far as cooking with flax oil, I would not recommend it unless it was

low heat for a very short duration. Do you like your eggs over easy?

Flax is a polyunsaturated oil. What that means is that there are a lot

of unbound receptor sights on the ends of the carbon sections within the

molecules of oil. This means that it is very easy for the oil to become

oxidized.

This is the primary reason the food industry hydrogenates their oils. By

filling the receptor sights wit hydrogen, the oil becomes saturated and very

stable so they have a longer shelf life.

 

This is also the reason it is important to make sure your patients take a

good brand of fish oil. Fish oil is very fragile, and much of the oil on the

market is oxidized and harmful to eat.

I prefer brands that have been low temp distilled and packed with Vit E

in oxygen blocking packaging and added nitrogen. This takes care of most of

the reasons for the olil going bad. Carlson is one I like.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/8/2004 10:34:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

writes:

This is also the reason it is important to make sure your

patients take a

> good brand of fish oil. Fish oil is very fragile, and much of the

oil on the

> market is oxidized and harmful to eat.\

 

So are you saying if you cook the fish (or eggs) the oil is no good

(oxidized)?

 

-

 

 

Jason, why do you so consistently take a generalization based on truth

and try to make it something it wasn't meant to be.

 

Read what I said. The unsaturated oil is fragile. No one would refute

this. It has unbound receptor sites and oxidizes easily. No one refutes this.

The older it is or the hotter the oil gets, the more it will oxidize. No

one will refute this.

 

So, if you have fresh eggs and cook them lightly, I am sure they will be

OK. However, I bet there will be some degradation of the oil because of the

heat. Remember we are talking about specialty eggs that have a high amount of

DHA and EPA.

 

So to answer your question directly, cooking will degrade the oil. How

much depends on how old it is, how hot it gets and for how long it gets hot. I

am sure that there are ingredients that will slow down the oxidation and

other ingredients that will accelerate the oxidation.

 

Did I suggest that cooking fish makes it inedible? Don't be ridiculous.

I do think uncooked fish is a better idea. Given it is prepared correctly

and chosen by a good sushi chef.

 

Because of your way of communicating, I am wondering if there may be

cultural differences involved. May I ask you where you are from? What are you

origins? Do you hold any other licenses other than Acupuncture?

 

Thanks,

Chris

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , Musiclear@a... wrote:

 

> As far as cooking with flax oil, I would not recommend it unless

it was

> low heat for a very short duration. Do you like your eggs over easy?

> Flax is a polyunsaturated oil. What that means is that there

are a lot

> of unbound receptor sights on the ends of the carbon sections within

the

> molecules of oil. This means that it is very easy for the oil to

become oxidized.

> This is the primary reason the food industry hydrogenates their

oils. By

> filling the receptor sights wit hydrogen, the oil becomes saturated

and very

> stable so they have a longer shelf life.

>

> This is also the reason it is important to make sure your

patients take a

> good brand of fish oil. Fish oil is very fragile, and much of the

oil on the

> market is oxidized and harmful to eat.\

 

So are you saying if you cook the fish (or eggs) the oil is no good

(oxidized)?

 

-

 

> I prefer brands that have been low temp distilled and packed

with Vit E

> in oxygen blocking packaging and added nitrogen. This takes care of

most of

> the reasons for the olil going bad. Carlson is one I like.

>

> Chris

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , Musiclear@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 8/8/2004 10:34:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> writes:

> This is also the reason it is important to make sure your

> patients take a

> > good brand of fish oil. Fish oil is very fragile, and much of the

> oil on the

> > market is oxidized and harmful to eat.\

>

> So are you saying if you cook the fish (or eggs) the oil is no good

> (oxidized)?

>

> -

>

 

Please do not get so paranoid because of my simple minded question.

It is just a question. I.e. Many say you can get all your Omega's

through cooked fish, so I ask If you cook the fish is the oil damaged

to a point that is not usable to the body. I am not talking about

lightly cooking the fish, but a regular cook in the oven. I never

mentioned anything about being inedible… Maybe there is something in

the Fish that protects the oil – this is what I would like to know,

because obviously the temperatures are quite high. I.e. in Flaxseed

oil, I assume it is pretty much agreed upon that ANY cooking, or even

exposure to light, air, oxygen turns the oil rancid. I include eggs

(in my question) only because that is what we are talking about and I

wonder how much it applies to it. I am not trying to make anything

out to be more than it is, I am just asking a simple question, I do

not know much about this topic, so relax.

 

-

 

 

>

> Jason, why do you so consistently take a generalization based on

truth

> and try to make it something it wasn't meant to be.

>

> Read what I said. The unsaturated oil is fragile. No one would

refute

> this. It has unbound receptor sites and oxidizes easily. No one

refutes this.

> The older it is or the hotter the oil gets, the more it will

oxidize. No

> one will refute this.

>

> So, if you have fresh eggs and cook them lightly, I am sure they

will be

> OK. However, I bet there will be some degradation of the oil

because of the

> heat. Remember we are talking about specialty eggs that have a high

amount of

> DHA and EPA.

>

> So to answer your question directly, cooking will degrade the

oil. How

> much depends on how old it is, how hot it gets and for how long it

gets hot. I

> am sure that there are ingredients that will slow down the oxidation

and

> other ingredients that will accelerate the oxidation.

>

> Did I suggest that cooking fish makes it inedible? Don't be

ridiculous.

> I do think uncooked fish is a better idea. Given it is prepared

correctly

> and chosen by a good sushi chef.

>

> Because of your way of communicating, I am wondering if there

may be

> cultural differences involved. May I ask you where you are from?

What are you

> origins? Do you hold any other licenses other than Acupuncture?

>

> Thanks,

> Chris

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Chris,

 

Thanks for the post. For some reason I didn't get a group of messages

in digest form so had to go hunting through the records to find it..

 

I appreciate the clarification with the B-vitamins. this particular

M.D. professor is foreign and perhaps her explanation of the

situation wasn't entirely clear. So once again, thank you, that makes

much more sense and is in fact what I've heard before.

 

So perhaps there is hope for B-vitamin supplemented beer! yay! :>

 

I was under the impression that fats are hydrogenated also because of

the general consensus in the american public that they don't want to

eat lard - animal based fats - in things like cookies, crackers,

bread, etc. And since animal based fats are solids at room

temperature owing to their fewer double bonds (less kinked chains

means they can lay together much more easily and remain as a solid at

higher temperatures), the food industry has come up with the

brilliant idea of chemically processing vegetable based oils.. adding

Hydrogens and breaking double bonds, so that they can act more like

the animal based fats. Unfortunately chemically adding hydrogens

creates bizarre structures that don't occur naturally in our body-

namely trans fatty acids (as opposed to cis-fatty acids.. they can't

control where the hydrogen latches on, i gather? or don't care

enough?) As my biochem professor back in college used to say.. trans

fatty acids are incredibly stable, but(and if you only knew this

conservative guy you'd be shocked too) he felt that the worst threat

to the american public right now, diet-wise, is partially

hydrogenated oils, nonetheless.

 

so i stay away from them whenever possible.

 

and will also continue to leave darling flax seed oil in its cold,

unheated form.....

 

i don't eat eggs myself, but the question remains will there be any

significant benefit to adding these substances to the eggs..? enough

of the DHA and EPA and few enough of any toxic chemical reactions

mediated by heat? It would be interesting to find out...

 

good talking with you,

nadia

 

Chinese Medicine , Musiclear@a...

wrote:

> In a message dated 8/7/2004 5:55:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> eastdakota@h... writes:

> Jason,

>

> I think another question one would need to ask is, is the EPA and

DHA broken

> down by cooking in the way that most people cook eggs? I don't know

about

> anyone else, but I know I'd prefer a gel cap over a raw egg any day

of the

> week :>

>

> I tried to do some quick internet research on the subject but came

up with

> widely differing opinions on whether one can cook with flax seed

oil (and

> that's not directly analogous to cooking an egg with the same

components

> anyways.. are there components in eggs that would somehow affect

the EPA and

> DHA?).

>

> I would never in a million years think of cooking flax seed oil,

but I can't

> say that I have any good reason for this besides my mother's

admonishings.

>

> And since many of the good components of flax seed oil are found in

fish

> oils.. and people cook fish.. who knows.

>

> This reminded me of something one of my pathology professors said

to me (an

> M.D.).. that B-vitamin supplemented beer has come on the market.

Has anyone

> seen this? (The idea being that beer more than any other alcoholic

beverage

> supposedly leeches out of your body certain B-vitamins) I laughed

and

> laughed.. how wonderful, let's put ALL our vitamins in beer and

have a good

> time of supplementing! But....... the unfortunate news is since the

beer

> itself leeches the B-vitamins out, although you may be injesting

them, the

> beer may not be allowing you to absorb them. Tricky marketing!

>

> Best,

> Nadia

>

> Hi Nadia,

>

> I think there may have been a miscommunication with your MD

professor.

> Rather than beer blocks B vitamin absorption, I think he might of

meant

> processing the alcohol in beer requires extra B vitamins. SO even

though there are B

> vitamins in beer naturally, there is a net loss of B vitamins

because it

> takes a greater amount of B vitamins than is in beer to process out

the alcohol of

> the beer.

>

> As far as cooking with flax oil, I would not recommend it

unless it was

> low heat for a very short duration. Do you like your eggs over

easy?

> Flax is a polyunsaturated oil. What that means is that there

are a lot

> of unbound receptor sights on the ends of the carbon sections

within the

> molecules of oil. This means that it is very easy for the oil to

become oxidized.

> This is the primary reason the food industry hydrogenates their

oils. By

> filling the receptor sights wit hydrogen, the oil becomes saturated

and very

> stable so they have a longer shelf life.

>

> This is also the reason it is important to make sure your

patients take a

> good brand of fish oil. Fish oil is very fragile, and much of the

oil on the

> market is oxidized and harmful to eat.

> I prefer brands that have been low temp distilled and packed

with Vit E

> in oxygen blocking packaging and added nitrogen. This takes care

of most of

> the reasons for the olil going bad. Carlson is one I like.

>

> Chris

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/8/2004 4:06:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

writes:

Please do not get so paranoid because of my simple minded question.

It is just a question. I.e. Many say you can get all your Omega's

through cooked fish, so I ask If you cook the fish is the oil damaged

to a point that is not usable to the body. I am not talking about

lightly cooking the fish, but a regular cook in the oven. I never

mentioned anything about being inedible… Maybe there is something in

the Fish that protects the oil – this is what I would like to know,

because obviously the temperatures are quite high. I.e. in Flaxseed

oil, I assume it is pretty much agreed upon that ANY cooking, or even

exposure to light, air, oxygen turns the oil rancid. I include eggs

(in my question) only because that is what we are talking about and I

wonder how much it applies to it. I am not trying to make anything

out to be more than it is, I am just asking a simple question, I do

not know much about this topic, so relax.

 

-

 

 

Sorry if my comebacks to you are to hard or out of line. It is just that

your way of communicating with me has seemed to be condescending and my

meanings have been twisted in your return posts. That was difficult the first

few

times and annoying after that. I don't know you personally so maybe it is my

misjudgment and you have been innocently perusing the truth. I don't know. I

will say that no other person on this list or any of the other five lists I am

on, has been as difficult for me to deal with. (Except Lonny come to think

of it.) But I'm willing to get over it. My apologies again

 

I would agree with people that we could get all out omegas from fish, in

a perfect world. Unfortunately we don't live in that world.

 

I believe we should be getting our quota of anti inflammatory oils from

different aspects of our diet. Not just fish. Unfortunately with corporate

food giants over farming in depleted soils and feeding our meat products a

horribly imbalanced diet the balance of anti inflammatory oils available from

the

typical " Good " diet is far into the inflammatory range. Add in that most people

don't eat a varied diet, nor digest well, and typically live is a state of

emotional and physical stress, most people are chronically inflamed. This has

been shown to be one of the most consistent roots to many of the chronic

diseases we have been talking about, including many cancers, arthritis and heart

disease.

 

Unfortunately, unless people are very careful with their dietary choices

and live an emotionally peaceful life, I believe the level of omegas in even

wild salmon may not be enough to overcome the imbalance of inflammatory oils

that have slipped into most peoples diet.

 

It has been shown that because of the corn based fish food feed farm

raised salmon eat and the typically polluted waters they are raised in, a large

percentage have cancer by the time they are harvested and their oil content is

pushed into the omega 6 balanced rather than the omega 3 they normally would

be. Also because they are not eating the shrimp that is part of their typical

diet, farmers need to add colorant to the fish food so their flesh will be the

orange we are accustomed to rather than the gray it has become. So now, most

farm raised Salmon is really not healthy any more and certainly doesn't offer

the high omega 3 oils we are looking for.

 

Unfortunately, given the state of affairs in our food industry, unless a

person really has their act together, supplementation is pretty much a

requirement for optimal biochemistry.

 

IMHO,

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanx for the post, but I am still unclear what cooking does to the

omega-3's in eggs? anyone?

 

-Jason

 

Chinese Medicine , Musiclear@a... wrote:

> It has been shown that because of the corn based fish food feed

farm

> raised salmon eat and the typically polluted waters they are raised

in, a large

> percentage have cancer by the time they are harvested and their oil

content is

> pushed into the omega 6 balanced rather than the omega 3 they

normally would

> be. Also because they are not eating the shrimp that is part of

their typical

> diet, farmers need to add colorant to the fish food so their flesh

will be the

> orange we are accustomed to rather than the gray it has become. So

now, most

> farm raised Salmon is really not healthy any more and certainly

doesn't offer

> the high omega 3 oils we are looking for.