Guest guest Posted August 7, 2004 Report Share Posted August 7, 2004 After some more thinking about our current situation a few things occurred to me: A large % of chronically ill patients that practitioners see are on multiple meds. They come to us and we clean up side-effects, and make them feel better. I think it is real easy to say that if they weren't on those meds things would be much better. (and also if they ate right and exercised years ago and never went on the meds they would be much better off), but unfortunately they are on them. Now to deal with the present (and not- whatifs), the disease looks somewhat calm. And we tweak them and they feel better. If you start getting them off meds then you can really see what a mess you have to deal with and the shit hits the fan. Suppressed symptoms rage, and one can see that these chronic diseases are not as passive as one may come to believe while treating so many people on meds). One can blame whatever one wants, lifestyle, WM, society, but the fact remains people are messed up. To completely take over these chronic illnesses and get these people off everything (esp. with just acupuncture) can sometimes almost be impossible. Many times we can get people 100% meds, and we feel great and they feel great. But as a profession we are too young, IMO, to think that we can start doing that with the majority of cases out there, and this is where the black and white line gets blurred. We must work in conjunction with WM. But of course I agree that it is better not to go on the majority of meds, but unfortunately it is too late… So in a perfect world we (and the public) would know what is treated best with WM and what is best with CM. Everyone would start from ground zero and have zero meds in there system. But this is not reality. We cannot (IMO) just start saying look at all the ADR's, the meds are soooo bad, we can do better, well this is a slippery slope. (hopefully someday we can, but I doubt it yet, we are just too under-trained) Agree or disagree? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 I have a small but strong network of medical experts who I refer to on a weekly basis.Often after sometimes spending half an hour or more with a patient it will become obvious to me that THIS person needs the help of WM so I refer them on WITHOUT charging them a cent, they are USUALLY very grateful some are disappointed but its up to them to take my advice or not. I can give many examples but wont bore the list with these unless asked.As Jason has said the sign of maturity is to KNOW if not your medicine's limitations at least your own at this time.I am not AGAINST WM or Doctors in general,I have helped many who are interested in acupuncture over the years, who have come to watch and improve their understanding and skills.Even though this does not represent " proper " training,they were performing acupuncture every day after only very short courses.I did so because they are doing it anyway and would continue so better to help IMO(if nothing else for the public)these Doctors have often referred later their most difficult patients,working with their patients who are often " loaded " with medications has been some of the most challenging times. Here in Australia at least I have seen some positive changes.Firstly,Doctors SEEM to have stopped giving anti-biotic for " a virus " although it still does happen it is fading out,they now know that its useless.Secondly,many many Doctors will now recommend their patients,take acidophilus,or some other similar product to re-establish beneficial flora in the gut after a course of anti biotic.Naturopaths have been going on and on about this for years Doctors have seen the light and its not because of research IMO as that has had mixed reviews.It is because the public are and have asked QUESTIONS as to why they were NOT told about a simple thing which they have found helped them immensely.Doctors are now recommending vit C for the immune system but the " research " jury is still out on that one too. The question is Why? The answer is that because some things work very well despite " research " the sheer numbers of people finding out these things individually creates a collective community agreement that Doctors CANNOT ignore as they see the results with their own eyes.Doctors need to keep going down this track and patients NEED to keep ASKING informed(often by us)questions.The public have money and votes two powerful aspects for some leverage and THEY are starting to vote with their feet and wallets,this is creating an opportunity for WM to have a good look in the mirror. Ahhh..What about Placebo...well that plays a part but I don't think it is the WHOLE picture,that is another story.... An interesting aside which gave me a good smile yesterday was a new patient who told me her WM doctor(who has no training in either acupuncture or herbs )sold her a bottle of " pills " for stress and that is all he gave her.I asked her what they were,she then pulled them out of her bag and to my surprise it was a good ol bottle of XIAO YAO SAN available in Chinatown for $3 her payment .....$25 nice profit.I know this is rare but all I could say is WOW! Regards Ray Ford ---- Chinese Medicine Sunday, 8 August 2004 2:50:37 AM Chinese Medicine chronic diseases and present meds After some more thinking about our current situation a few things occurred to me: A large % of chronically ill patients that practitioners see are on multiple meds. They come to us and we clean up side-effects, and make them feel better. I think it is real easy to say that if they weren't on those meds things would be much better. (and also if they ate right and exercised years ago and never went on the meds they would be much better off), but unfortunately they are on them. Now to deal with the present (and not- whatifs), the disease looks somewhat calm. And we tweak them and they feel better. If you start getting them off meds then you can really see what a mess you have to deal with and the shit hits the fan. Suppressed symptoms rage, and one can see that these chronic diseases are not as passive as one may come to believe while treating so many people on meds). One can blame whatever one wants, lifestyle, WM, society, but the fact remains people are messed up. To completely take over these chronic illnesses and get these people off everything (esp. with just acupuncture) can sometimes almost be impossible. Many times we can get people 100% meds, and we feel great and they feel great. But as a profession we are too young, IMO, to think that we can start doing that with the majority of cases out there, and this is where the black and white line gets blurred. We must work in conjunction with WM. But of course I agree that it is better not to go on the majority of meds, but unfortunately it is too late… So in a perfect world we (and the public) would know what is treated best with WM and what is best with CM. Everyone would start from ground zero and have zero meds in there system. But this is not reality. We cannot (IMO) just start saying look at all the ADR's, the meds are soooo bad, we can do better, well this is a slippery slope. (hopefully someday we can, but I doubt it yet, we are just too under-trained) Agree or disagree? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " rayford " <rford@p...> wrote: > I have a small but strong network of medical experts who I refer to on a > weekly basis.Often after sometimes spending half an hour or more with a > patient it will become obvious to me that THIS person needs the help of WM > so I refer them on WITHOUT charging them a cent, they are USUALLY very > grateful some are disappointed but its up to them to take my advice or not. > > I can give many examples but wont bore the list with these unless asked.As > Jason has said the sign of maturity is to KNOW if not your medicine's > limitations at least your own at this time.I am not AGAINST WM or Doctors in > general,I have helped many who are interested in acupuncture over the years, > who have come to watch and improve their understanding and skills.Even > though this does not represent " proper " training,they were performing > acupuncture every day after only very short courses.I did so because they > are doing it anyway and would continue so better to help IMO(if nothing else > for the public)these Doctors have often referred later their most difficult > patients,working with their patients who are often " loaded " with medications > has been some of the most challenging times. I am really glad to see some sensible posts (at least IMO) on this topic. I have to say that the first few posts I read on this list (when I joined) set me off my rocker and probably dictated my tone in other following discussions. I remember them as " I would never send anyone to a western doctor, they just kill people etc etc. – they are the #1 killer in the us etc etc " I thought, if our profession is really that ignorant then we are in real trouble… So I started on my mini-campaign- sorry for anyone that I offended, but I see now that the majority of people have some sense. So most of us agree that there is a role for everyone, and let us use each other to their best abilities. > > Here in Australia at least I have seen some positive changes.Firstly,Doctors > SEEM to have stopped giving anti-biotic for " a virus " although it still does > happen it is fading out,they now know that its useless.Secondly,many many > Doctors will now recommend their patients,take acidophilus,or some other > similar product to re-establish beneficial flora in the gut after a course > of anti biotic. My experience also. There are some really great MD's out there, in some cities it just make some time to find them. I suggest everone has 1 or 2 to refer people to. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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