Adverse drug reactions and hospital admissions in the UK

August 7, 2004

Jason

Our bodies do recognise insulin, cortisone and oestrogen, but what gets

prescribed are not naturally occurring molecules and that is often the cause

of the side effects. The oestrogen drugs take have extra bits added onto

the molecules so that the drug companies can patent them, I think that

cortisone is the same, if it were the natural substance prescribed then the

drug companies couldn't make money on it. Insulin is not human it is either

from pigs, cows or more recently produced as a by product of a bacteria

which has been genetically modified and is called human insulin, however it

may not be exactly the same as human insulin.

Regards

Susie

>

> Also, our bodies have never seen these molecules before.

Do you mean like insulin, cortisone, or estrogen?????

August 7, 2004

Chinese Medicine , Musiclear@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 8/6/2004 10:20:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> writes:

> > Well we are well past that and WM has to treat a big

> > mess. They are treating life threatening illness, which 99% of people

> > on the list could not handle.

> >

> > This attitude astounds me. I think your nuts. No attack

intended,

> > but,,,,, I think your nuts. And far more insulting than my last

> comment about your

> > sanity.

>

> We all have our opinions... And I stick by mine. I wonder what

> training you have to treat such problems. An observation: I have

> noticed that many Western CM practitioners generally think they can

> treat everything. Seasoned Chinese Practitioner's who have many times

> equal western training are always very cautious and know that there

> are things best left to western medicine â€ " They understand the

> limitation more realistically. I ask, are we ready to take on all the

> acute problems, i.e. Acute Respiratory Failure or acute bacterial

> meningitis or chronic cases of cancer with *our* toolsâ€¦ What would you

> do if someone walks through your door with a M.I.? Just curiousâ€¦

> Notice I mention life threatening illnesses not cold, flues, arthritis

> chronic fatigue etcâ€¦ So I also think you are nuts, now were even

>

> Jason, the thrust of my posts have to do with dealing with chronic

> diseases and the prevention of disease. You seem to continue to

challenge back with

> our ability to treat acute trauma.

So do you think we are ready to take on the Cancers, that you

mentioned in a previous post? I still believe there are chronic

conditions that WM can deal with better than us, that is all I am

saying.

Of course I think we prob can handle many of them better than WM. I

just don't like to knee jerk against WM. (not saying you do). We are

a young profession. We can do a lot of good, but the majority of

practitioners are severely under trained, IMO, to take on these

problems without the help of WM. For example, I and especially my

colleague have a huge interest in Asthma's etc. If you think this is

easy, this would prove more to me than anything. There are many

complications and people that are very sick, and WM is sometimes just

needed. Also there can be reactions and people end up the ER. Once

they have severe trouble breathing I would again say 99% of people

can't even think about handling it. So my point is even with chronic

situations there are acute crisis's that need to be looked at. Of

course we can treat any chronic disease, period, but there always hits

a point where they get *sick sick* and have to go in and sometimes

much quicker without meds and taking herbs… This is when hospitals see

most people anyway (when they get very ill). IF this is what you are

saying then ok we agree.

So for people that are on MEDS currently, I feel that it is foolish to

say that all these people should stop taking these MEDS because we

have better solutions – just because there are ADR out there or people

die at hospitals. Trust me I do not want to ever go to a hospital.

We are in a mixed complicated situation.

>

> > In the Confucian

> > spirit, the whole is greater than the individual. That is where WM

> > is. It has to deal with a `whole world' of serious problems.

> >

> > The approach they take creates a whole world of serious

> problems. You

> > seem to gloss over this simple fact.

>

> Yes but they save many lives and point blank with technology,

>

> There certainly is a tug of war between saving lives and creating

> unnecessary pain suffering and death.

> If the FDA were to start utilizing the information available

regarding

> cheap effective preventive therapies and made these therapies as

averrable as

> drugs are now,

You mentioned this before, can you supply examples of these..

>

> My BAD,,, JAMA refrerances 106,000 -- non-error, negative

effects of

> drugs . Here are some other stats and sources. From Mercola Web site:

>

> ALL THESE ARE DEATHS PER YEAR:

> 12,000 -- unnecessary surgery 8

> 7,000 -- medication errors in hospitals 9

> 20,000 -- other errors in hospitals 10

> 80,000 -- infections in hospitals 10

> 106,000 -- non-error, negative effects of drugs 2

> These total to 250,000 deaths per year from iatrogenic causes!!

> 2. Kohn L, ed, Corrigan J, ed, Donaldson M, ed. To Err Is Human:

Building a

> Safer Health System. Washington, DC: National Academy Press; 1999.

> 8. Leape L.Unecessarsary surgery. Annu Rev Public Health.

1992;13:363-383.

>

> 9. Phillips D, Christenfeld N, Glynn L. Increase in US medication-error

> deaths between 1983 and 1993. Lancet. 1998;351:643-644.

> 10. Lazarou J, Pomeranz B, Corey P. Incidence of adverse drug

reactions in

> hospitalized patients. JAMA. 1998;279:1200-1205.

>

> It's bad Jason. Real bad.

Again there are errors, but think about how many people hospitals deal

with and save – many of the above stats are very sick people, which

CHRONIC diseases that are weak. Either way it could be less, but most

people see the overall good is better than these errors. Of course if

something happens to an individually they are going to very pissed,

but hey this is a huge medical system trying to clean up the mess we

(society) has produced. And this is not just from p-drugs, but from

environmental toxins etc. It is much more complicated…

..

>

> Again, I am generally talking about most chronic diseases. I never

> suggested we could do triple bypasses or operate on tumors. That

would be

> ridiculous.

> However, I would suggest that as people find they have arterial

damage

> and plague buildup, there are effective cheap and safe therapies

available to

> remove those buildups.

I agree…

>

> You seem to have consistently twisted what I have said to suit your

> desires. I believe you probably get my message but choose to try to

belittle my

> ideas by suggesting that I am talking about the ridiculous. Given

the extent

> that you have done this, I am beginning to question your intent in this

> conversation.

I do and I don't – I am not twisting your words (intentionally) . I

just think it is not as black and white as many think. IT is a

complicated mess, and we should not throw the baby out with the

bathwater… Understanding the real strengths (and weaknesses) on WM

(on individual diseases) and understanding our real strengths (and

weaknesses) is mandatory, not just saying WM is good at acute and CM

at chronic – that IMO is too simplified.

But all and all I think we agree on much of this…

-

August 7, 2004

Chinese Medicine , " susie parkinson "

<susie@p...> wrote:

> Jason

> Our bodies do recognise insulin, cortisone and oestrogen, but what gets

> prescribed are not naturally occurring molecules and that is often

the cause

> of the side effects. The oestrogen drugs take have extra bits added

onto

> the molecules so that the drug companies can patent them, I think that

> cortisone is the same, if it were the natural substance prescribed

then the

> drug companies couldn't make money on it. Insulin is not human it

is either

> from pigs, cows or more recently produced as a by product of a bacteria

> which has been genetically modified and is called human insulin,

however it

> may not be exactly the same as human insulin.

But is it true that the core insulin molecule is the same, although it

might be paired with something else? IS it any different than with

plants. I argue that these seem to be more easily recognized hence

utilized than a plant. But plants have less side-effects because of

so many other molecules that buffer it and supply co-factors etc. I

think the argument was that plants are more easily tolerated because

those molecules are recognized and the p-drugs are foreign. This is

what sounds fishy to me. Comments?

-

>

> Regards

> Susie

>

> >

> > Also, our bodies have never seen these molecules before.

>

> Do you mean like insulin, cortisone, or estrogen?????

August 7, 2004

After reading all of these post (and replying to a few), I get the sense that

despite the sometimes heated retorts, those on either side of this issue are not

far off. I hope it would be fair to say that all of us agree that Western

medicine excels at dramatic, life saving interventions but too often causes

adverse reactions including those worse than the original condition all the way

up to death. We should also all be able to agree that the Chinese medical

profession has a long way to go before we could be expected to take on as much

of the burden of providing health care to the masses that we have the potential

to do and that no matter how much we progress toward those ends, there are those

conditions that simply respond better to Western medicine. In other words, both

systems of health care have their relative strengths and weaknesses. Most of

what has been discussed in this forum has not been over whether or not each

system has its strengths and weaknesses but rather, a reflection of the passion

individuals have displayed in praising the strengths of one system and damming

the weaknesses of the other.

Jason - many people who practice Chinese medicine have somewhat of a chip on

their shoulder after being ridiculed by the mainstream medical establishment for

their " belief " in the value of Chinese medicine. I know I do. We have been

fought at every turn. These " authorities " lobbied against us in the U.S. when we

tried to get states to pass legislation to allow acupuncturists to practice,

they continue to advise insurance executives not to cover these services until

more scientific evidence about efficacy is available, and they never miss a

chance to warn the public through the media just how risky and unproven our

services are. Then, when we see these statistics showing how truly dangerous the

" proven " mainstream medicine is, we hear nothing from these same authorities who

seem to think those numbers are nothing more than the inevitable few eggs that

get broken when you make omelets.

I agree with Jason that we should not get too full of ourselves and think we can

replace Western medicine (if anyone really suggested this), but I also

sympathize with those who express their frustration that those truly eye-opening

statistics are not being taken as seriously as they should. I really think we

are talking shades of grey here. I am all for spirited discussion, but I hope we

can all agree that both medical systems have their strengths and weakness and

that efforts to get the best of both worlds will be more constructive once we

acknowledge this without resorting to finger pointing - as tempting as that may

be. I apologize if I am sounding preachy - I have a bad tendency to do that.

Matt Bauer

-

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, August 07, 2004 7:21 AM

Re: Adverse drug reactions and hospital admissions in the UK

Chinese Medicine , " salvador_march "

<salvador_march@h...> wrote:

> Chinese Medicine , " "

> wrote:

>

> Jason

> You neglect to point out that most of the 'acute illnesses' are the

> direct result of long term drug prescription and to some extent

> operations on the bone structure , for what is initially stress

> induced disorders. IMO If people were sent to us at that stage. the

> amount of work done by WM would be dramatically reduced within 10 years

>

No kidding.. I think the *point* is that they have not been sent to

us for the last 30 years, and they are not going to even in the next

10 years suddenly switch over. We are in a situation right now, and

we can not wave a magic wand a change that - of course many of these

illnesses are drug induced. Therefore we have to play by the rules of

reality in the present. The majority of people in the world think that

WM is doing the right thing, is saving lives, and helping people.

People on this list can argue all they want on how bad WM is, but this

is not majority thought, and is just another minority opinion.

Furthermore stats that demonstrate the amount of use for alterative

therapies are completely biased by including people buying supplements

at health food stores, but when people actually get sick they trust

the whitecoat, and many times they are right, and many times they are

wrong. OR more importantly, as stated previously, what are they to

do? What are the alteratives? Open the phone book and randomly pick

an alterative therapy (or search the internet for bogus cures) - It is

a real dilemma. AS a profession (here in the west) we don't even

really have a good idea of what we can and cannot treat. In China

they have a better idea because they are more open medically to

integration and sharing. Another reason to read Chinese.

But of course, we would have far less problems if everyone ate right

and exercised, but people don't. SO we and WM plays clean-up. I ask

are we ready as profession to really take on WM's role? But we do

need to ask how we can become more excepted, and know what we can

actually treat when people are really sick, not just having insomnia

from stress. My answer RESEARCH. Comments?

-

> salvador

August 7, 2004

Chinese Medicine , " Matt Bauer " <acu.guy@g...>

wrote:

>> I am all for spirited discussion, but I hope we can all agree that both

medical systems

have their strengths and weakness and that efforts to get the best of both

worlds will be

more constructive once we acknowledge this without resorting to finger pointing

- as

tempting as that may be. I apologize if I am sounding preachy >>

AMEN!!!!!

er... i mean, I agree.

robert hayden

August 7, 2004

Hi Salvador,

>

> Jason

> You neglect to point out that most of the 'acute illnesses' are the

> direct result of long term drug prescription and to some extent

> operations on the bone structure , for what is initially stress

> induced disorders. IMO If people were sent to us at that stage. the

> amount of work done by WM would be dramatically reduced within 10 years

>

> salvador

Just a quick story of a situation that happened last week.

A friend, good health and in her 40s, called us because she has had

pnemonia for about a month. She was being treated by a physician and

an emergency room during that period of time with antibiotics and got

progressively worse until it reached a point where the hospital " gave

up " and she had no hope. She was considering putting herself in a

nursing home. She wanted to know if we could recommend any alternative

doctors, which we did. To ease her pain, she had one session of qigong

and light tuina. After the session she was able to freely move around,

her cough had been substantially eliminated, and she basically felt

" like a new person " . We suggested that she take a melaleuca bath, (to

release the wind-cold that was being suppressed), make some changes to

her diet (basically eliminate dairy, meats, and ice drinks from her

diet), and rest. We saw her today and she continues to recover very

quickly from the " drug therapy " she was subjected to.

My opinion is that the concept of " replicatable treatments " as opposed

to " individualized " treatments have created the problems that

currently exist in Western medicine. The foundation of this being the

" double-blind studies " . These studies search for very strong and harsh

treatments that will " suppress " symptoms in a large population during

a very short period of time. Suppresssed symptoms will necessarily

lead to worsening conditions such as a cold turning into pneumonia.

This is predicted by Herings Law. These studies cannot find cures

because cures are different for each individual. Every cold may look

the same but the causes are quite different and the permutations are

literally infinite. The Mind can adjust and heal itself but

pharmaceuticals cannot.

I hope that TCM does not go down the same road as Western medicine,

because I believe the results will be the same - that is, suppression

of symptoms, poor results, and a general loss of the benefits of

individualized treatments.

Regards,

Rich

August 8, 2004

Jason,

While I agree with most of what you say, you must factor in the

infant mortality rate and death from epidemics when looking at the

changing life spans over time. Clearly, there were long-lived

populations on the earth in the past.

On Aug 6, 2004, at 6:50 PM, wrote:

> Yes but they save many lives and point blank with technology,

> medicine, etc our life span has sky rocketed i.e. Around 10,000 BC the

> average human life span was 20 years. When Jefferson was born the

> average had increased, but only to 27 years. By 1950 the world-wide

> average had increased to 46 years. In the last five decades it has

> increased to 66 years (1). – So one can argue about quality of life,

> but I give you a choice would you take 27 years or what we have now in

> America. Western Medicine has done miraculous things worldwide. I

> did not gloss of over your above statement I am looking at the whole

> picture – maybe our pictures are just different.

August 8, 2004

Matt,

I think you hit it on the head. We are quite defensive about our

'turf', because it is difficult to make a living and also face the

scorn of the medical establishment. I work with cancer patients quite

a bit, and I can tell you, oncologists are some of the most

conservative medical practitioners out there. Just last week an M.D.

working with a prostate cancer patient told the patient I was a

'quack', because his PSA's went up after corrective prostate surgery,

which tends to spike the PSA's upwards. The doc blamed it on my herbs

and acupuncture, without a shred of evidence. Fortunately, his primary

physician saw that the PSA info was unreliable, and the other dr's

comments as nonsense. Look, I've been in this field for 23 years, and

I still can't get respect from some of these folks.

At the same time, we have to be patient with acceptance and our role in

health care. We should know that what we practice is genuine, based in

a long-standing medical tradition, and eventually we will be

established in the West, even if it takes a few generations. It is my

feeling that we should do it on our own terms, not watering down how

Chinese medicine works, or try to imitate Western medicine outright.

We need to develop our own health care system, insurance, and referral

networks, while continuing to work when possible with the existing

health care structure.

On Aug 7, 2004, at 10:32 AM, Matt Bauer wrote:

> Jason - many people who practice Chinese medicine have somewhat of a

> chip on their shoulder after being ridiculed by the mainstream medical

> establishment for their " belief " in the value of Chinese medicine. I

> know I do. We have been fought at every turn. These " authorities "

> lobbied against us in the U.S. when we tried to get states to pass

> legislation to allow acupuncturists to practice, they continue to

> advise insurance executives not to cover these services until more

> scientific evidence about efficacy is available, and they never miss a

> chance to warn the public through the media just how risky and

> unproven our services are. Then, when we see these statistics showing

> how truly dangerous the " proven " mainstream medicine is, we hear

> nothing from these same authorities who seem to think those numbers

> are nothing more than the inevitable few eggs that get broken when you

> make omelets.

>

> I agree with Jason that we should not get too full of ourselves and

> think we can replace Western medicine (if anyone really suggested

> this), but I also sympathize with those who express their frustration

> that those truly eye-opening statistics are not being taken as

> seriously as they should. I really think we are talking shades of grey

> here. I am all for spirited discussion, but I hope we can all agree

> that both medical systems have their strengths and weakness and that

> efforts to get the best of both worlds will be more constructive once

> we acknowledge this without resorting to finger pointing - as tempting

> as that may be. I apologize if I am sounding preachy - I have a bad

> tendency to do that.

August 8, 2004

Chinese Medicine , " Rich "

<rfinkelstein@a...> wrote:

> Hi Salvador,

>

> My opinion is that the concept of " replicatable treatments " as opposed

> to " individualized " treatments have created the problems that

> currently exist in Western medicine. The foundation of this being the

> " double-blind studies " . These studies search for very strong and harsh

> treatments that will " suppress " symptoms in a large population during

> a very short period of time. Suppresssed symptoms will necessarily

> lead to worsening conditions such as a cold turning into pneumonia.

> This is predicted by Herings Law. These studies cannot find cures

> because cures are different for each individual. Every cold may look

> the same but the causes are quite different and the permutations are

> literally infinite. The Mind can adjust and heal itself but

> pharmaceuticals cannot.

Thanx for the story… I think there is a happy medium when it comes to

reproducible treatments. I.e. We can keep things a little more open;

i.e.100 people with pneumonia get an herbal formula for dr. X " It CAN

be modified for the individual, then we see how it fairs.

In China, they are doing incredible research like above, but also they

will have a base formula for whatever disease then just modify it for

the pattern. This in my mind (and theirs) is worthwhile information

that allows one to see how modality X fairs against Disease Y – with a

base formula idea. The same can be done with acupuncture, qigong or

whatever.

I love reading modern Chinese journals especially zhongyizazhi. they

has case studies, research, theory discussion etc. And you notice

that certain therapies don't do that well against disease Y. And you

realize that you can research this stuff and not just have to rely on

anecdotal evidence or classical references.

-

>

> I hope that TCM does not go down the same road as Western medicine,

> because I believe the results will be the same - that is, suppression

> of symptoms, poor results, and a general loss of the benefits of

> individualized treatments.

>

> Regards,

> Rich

August 8, 2004

Hi Z'ev,

Thanks and I see it the same especially when you said:

" At the same time, we have to be patient with acceptance and our role in

health care. "

I agree that patience is a wonderful virtue - I can't wait until I achieve it. -

Matt

-

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, August 07, 2004 9:00 PM

Re: Re: Adverse drug reactions and hospital admissions in the

UK