Unblock the qi to treat everything?

August 2, 2004

Chinese Medicine , ra6151@a... wrote:

>

> In a message dated 8/1/04 10:08:06 PM, zrosenbe@s... writes:

>

> << Rich wrote:

>

> > I think your premise is that good treatment is dependent upon the

> > quality of diagnostic techniques outlined in TCM texts. >>

>

> Group - I am not answering or rebutting any one person with this

post, but

> just chiming in on the discussion.

>

> I had another thought about diagnosis and treatment that I wanted to

put out

> there for consideration. My thought is that perhaps the closer to

the 'root'

> one is aiming one's treatment, the less need there is for a

differentiated

> diagnosis and differentiated treatment. When Rich says that his Qi

Gong Dr.

> doesn't diagnose, perhaps this could be restated as " the diagnsosis

is always the

> same - lack of flow of the vital qi " . (forgive me Rich and correct

me if

> this isn't right.)

>

> As a practitioner aims to treat the 'branch' then a more differentiated

> diagnosis and treatment become necessary.

>

> I came to this thought remembering assisting my own mentor/teacher

in the

> 1980's as she taught a week-long workshop on treating dance

injuries. Even

> though the different injuries were differentiated and discussed in a

detailed way

> in the morning sessions, in the afternoon sessions, where she

actually treated

> people while we observed, she gave more or less the same treatment

to each

> person, regardless of the injury. That treatment was explained as

" encouraging

> the local cellular breathing " in the area of the injury. From the

outside, it

> didn't look like she was doing anything but putting her hands on the

person

> and waiting. She explained by saying when there is an injury, some

of the cells

> will be struggling, and until their proper breathing (flow into and

out of

> the cell and the mitochondria) are restored, the injury can't heal. In

> retrospect, I think she was giving a " root " treatment to each

person, (probably partly

> because that was a concept she had been exploring and elucidating

for several

> years at the time of that workshop.)

>

> And believe it or not, my teacher succeeded, over the years, in

teaching many

> of us how to feel the activity of and improve the vitality of the

> mitochondria and " cellular breathing " . I used that approach for

years in my practice and

> primarily did 'root' treatments.

>

> It was, in fact, a desire to learn more about differentiated

diagnosis that

> brought me to the study of TCM.

Interesting thoughts and I can't say I disagree, but I ask (everyone),

how helpful is it to talk about therapies via the internet without a

differential dx? If everything is just as simple as unblocking the qi

flow, then why are we talking? I agree this might be true, but these

techniques (to just unblock the flow) are special techniques that

really 'can't be described in books' as was stated earlier – hence not

via the internet. I assume this is because it is harder to do than

just waving a wand. Otherwise everyone would be healed.

So we are really about finding solutions for people's diseases, we

need some framework to discuss this stuff, we can open it up to

everything and we might just have people saying, `open the flow' that

will cure the MS… Ok…. But really that is where `formal' TCM comes in,

IMO. It is a language and system that we can actually get to the meat

of real problems. Hey it might not be the best way, i.e. diagnosising

with all this complicated theory, i.e. phlegm, and coming up with an

herbal or acupuncture idea. But how else is this group productive?

Maybe that is not the aim of the group, maybe we just should spend all

our time just talking about this stuff… The only reason I have spent

so much time yapping, hopefully so we can define some approach that

can benefit patients. Maybe I was wrong to assume, because of the

name of the group, that we had a set framework, and if so that is

fine. IS there a mission statement of this group? [Attilio-see web site's

homepage].

Granted I would love to be able to just touch my patients and cure

their disease, but I can't (at this moment), so I rely on theory,

herbs and acupuncture, what I thought was TCM. I also think if I was

convinced that qigong could really cure diseases (and anyone could

learn it) then I would put my energy there. Right now I just do qigong

for my health.

That is why research would be great. I.e. A woman comes in with

osteoporosis; I have a good idea what to expect from Chinese herbs

because of research, right or wrong. I have not seen much in

acupuncture, so I would recommend herbs primarily. Am I convinced

that qigong with tuina can really change the bone? Not really, others

would say otherwise, and I ask those people, how do you know? That is

the magic question. It is real easy, as pointed out in a previous

post, to think that your therapy can cure everything, but to

acknowledge it's limitations is something profound. So how does a

qingong /tuina healer know what they can and cannot treat without

research, theory, books, historical case studies, etc etc. This is

what is confusing to me. Comments?

-

>

> So now I do have a question for Rich: Is there ever a time, in your

> opinion, when a 'qi gong' treatment is not the best treatment, or

perhaps makes

> things worse?

>

> -RoseAnne

August 2, 2004

HI Jason,

> Interesting thoughts and I can't say I disagree, but I ask (everyone),

> how helpful is it to talk about therapies via the internet without a

> differential dx? If everything is just as simple as unblocking the qi

> flow, then why are we talking? I agree this might be true, but these

> techniques (to just unblock the flow) are special techniques that

> really 'can't be described in books' as was stated earlier – hence not

> via the internet.

Qigong and tuina skills, like acupuncture or herbal skills, cannot be

taught or learned over the internet. They both require an appropriate

environment - though the pedalogical process may be quite different

for each type of skill. However, just like acupuncture and herbs,

there are many topics that can be discussed such as differences in

methodologies, experiences, and teaching/learning processes. For

example, Dr. Johnson's medical qigong approach has similarities and

differences from that which I have experienced. I am interested in

knowing more about this. As a result, I may attend one of his

workshops or purchase his book. This is not dissimilar from any

discussion that one may have concerning the applications of herbs or

acupuncture.

>

> So we are really about finding solutions for people's diseases, we

> need some framework to discuss this stuff, we can open it up to

> everything and we might just have people saying, `open the flow' that

> will cure the MS…

Opening the flow does have its advantages since it is a way of

empowering people to care for themselves and heal themselves 24X7. For

example, I have learned how to use " full body breathing " 24 hours a

day - including while I sleep. As a result, my health is better (more

pure qi entering my body while using less internal qi to digest food),

my weight has stabilized (I have lost 31 pounds in 3 months with no

" hunger " or " reboound " effect), and I am able to spend more time on

treatments (vigorous tuina can be demanding without strong internal

qi). I, for example, can suggest simple qigong movement and breathing

exercises to my friends and acquaintenances so that they can improve

their health. Health then automatically becomes integrated into

someone's life as opposed to waiting until their are problems that

must be resolved by a physician.

> I was wrong to assume, because of the

> name of the group, that we had a set framework, and if so that is

> fine.

I believe that even the TCM framework has the blessings of the PRC can

be interpreted in a variety of ways. For example, there is the whole

discussion of medical qigong and tuina, which are certainly accepted

TCM practices. I have one of the accepted PRC tuina textbooks

published by Shandong Science and Technology Press, which suggests an

approach that bears little resemblance to the approach that my doctor

used while practicing in TCM hospitals in China. As an aside, it is

interesting that in China the " standards " are set by a process that is

heavily influences by politics and economics. A criticism that is

often leveled against Western medicine and the substantial influence

of the AMA.

> Granted I would love to be able to just touch my patients and cure

> their disease, but I can't (at this moment), so I rely on theory,

> herbs and acupuncture, what I thought was TCM.

As I, and others have pointed out, both tuina and medical qigong are

fully recognized as TCM practices by the PRC, they are taught in TCM

colleges and universities - inside and outside of China, and have a

history at least as long as acupuncture and herbs. However, if you are

not familiar with these practices, you may want to begin the study.

They are quite interesting and useful.

> I also think if I was

> convinced that qigong could really cure diseases (and anyone could

> learn it) then I would put my energy there. Right now I just do

qigong for my health.

There is no bright line between self practice and applying qi to

others. The flow of qi has no boundaries. If you are doing it for

health, you can certainly use it to help cure others. As a beginning

you can introduce others to your self-practice and suggest that they

learn it as you do with your teacher.

> So how does a

> qingong /tuina healer know what they can and cannot treat without

> research, theory, books, historical case studies, etc etc. This is

> what is confusing to me. Comments?

I think the time honored way is to apprentice under a teacher,

observe, understand, and then apply. I believe that the theory is

straightforward but the skills in application improve over time as

does experience. When one begins, he or she can do so much, in 30

years you can do that much more. If you want to do on day one what a

30 year practitioner can do, I think you may be desiring something

that is almost impossible to achieve - though I do not eliminate the

possibility of " gifted " practitioners, just like their are child

prodigoes in mathematics, piano, art, etc.

Regards,

Rich

August 2, 2004

There are 3 questions I will like to comment here. I'll start with this one.

Is there ever a time when a 'qigong' treatment is not the best treatment, or

perhaps makes things worse?

-RoseAnne

The only time when qigong treatment is not the best treatment and can make

things worse is when the person who calls himself/herself " Qigong Master "

doesn't know what the hell he/she is doing. These people are either charlatans

who makes money that way or those self-serving delusional people who took one

class from a reputable master in qigong and somehow became convinced that they

can perform these ultimate treatments on people. Often time, the knowledge

these people possess is often full of misconceptions and MSUs, and their level

of understanding of qigong is just pathetic. When they do damage, they not only

damage their patients, but they damage the reputation and the perception of

“Qigong Master” as the ultimate healers. Unfortunately, there are a lot more of

these quacks than “Qigong Masters” who are genuine healers. So, it is difficult

promote qigong as a proper mainstream healing practice. People will believe

what they see more often.

So how does a qigong /tuina healer know what they can and cannot treat without

research, theory, books, historical case studies, etc etc. This is what is

confusing to me. Comments?

-

I had the fortune of being the patient and student of a Shanghai Qigong name

Master Jie Situ who taught qigong classes at Pitzer College in Claremont,

California, and I have a pretty good idea of what qigong can potentially achieve

and what to expect from a great qigong master, because I have experienced it

first hand. This leads to the second question: How does a qigong / tuina

healer know what they can and cannot treat without research, theory, books,

historical case studies, etc. etc.? First off, a good qigong master will tell

you what they can or cannot do for you after their initial diagnosis. They will

never tell you that they can cure any disease you can name. Although they can

be kind of egotistical when talking about their skill, but they always remain

modest and honest when it comes to your health. Quite a few modern day qigong

masters do possess those knowledge (i.e. research, theory, books, etc.) but they

will not display that knowledge to you if you don’t ask them.

The same way you and I won’t think of divulging certain information if not

asked about it. As a habit, they will answer your questions as qigong masters

would: from the qigong master’s perspective. Usually, the first thing that they

will tell you is that your qi is blocked. They tell you this, because that the

first thing they detect, not due to lack of knowledge. And it's their

specialty. Their method of diagnosis is complete with pulse, tongue and

coating, medical history and observations. The only thing that’s different

between an acupuncturist/herbalist and a good qigong master is that qigong

master can do it all with his/her hand which is extra sensitive to your

bio-rhythm and your energy-field. A true qigong master like Master Situ can

give you a complete medical history like he gave me by putting his hand over

your body, and it tends to be rather accurate. Sometimes they will confirm

their diagnosis by looking at your tongue and taking your pulse if he thinks he

has

trouble convincing you.

I won’t go into further details, because it’ll start to sound like science

fiction or fantasy, and I can’t offer research papers on this subject. I will

end my answer to the second question by saying that there is no limit to that

what qigong can do in unlocking the hidden human potential that everyone

innately possesses.

Am I convinced that qigong with tuina can really change the bone?

My answer would be: It’s not that qigong and tuina themselves that changes the

bone. It’s how they bring your body back into balance which would lead to

various adjustments within your body that brings about the changes in the bone.

A really good qigong master, acupuncturist, herbalist can help you with that.

They are all Doctors of .

Ming H. Lee, MPH, L.Ac.

August 2, 2004

Chinese Medicine , " Rich "

<rfinkelstein@a...> wrote:

>

> > Granted I would love to be able to just touch my patients and cure

> > their disease, but I can't (at this moment), so I rely on theory,

> > herbs and acupuncture, what I thought was TCM.

>

> As I, and others have pointed out, both tuina and medical qigong are

> fully recognized as TCM practices by the PRC, they are taught in TCM

> colleges and universities - inside and outside of China, and have a

> history at least as long as acupuncture and herbs. However, if you are

> not familiar with these practices, you may want to begin the study.

> They are quite interesting and useful.

I have studied both, and just not convinced of efficacy in treating

real diseases, that is it. Like I said I practice qigong almost daily.

-JB

August 2, 2004

Jason,

You should get your hands on two books:

1) Healing, Intention and Energy Medicine - Science, Research Methods abd

Clinical Implications

I particularly draw your attention to Chapter 9 " Qigong: basic science

studies in biology " and Chapter 10 " Qigong clinical studies " . This is a

very balanced book which presents the scientific evidence for and against

Qigong as well as other forms of " energetic medicine " . Cases are presented

warts and all and as you'd expect its not always positive, but on the main

it is.

2) Chinese Medical Qigong Therapy - A Comprehensive Clinical Text

In the appendices of this book there are over 80 pages of research trial

data and information regarding Medical Qigong therapy.

Hope this helps

Kind regards