re: study of TCM--Jason and all

August 2, 2004

Do we share a teacher? I studied with Dr Jerry Alan Johnson and completed

the Master of Medical Qigong programme.

Kind regards

Dermot

-

" Rich " <rfinkelstein

Monday, August 02, 2004 2:52 AM

Re: re: study of TCM--Jason and all

>

> >

> > The main issue is intellectual honesty. Can you find a source to

> > connect one's work with the vast history of Chinese medicine, or is it

> > something new?

>

> You may be interested in Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's translations of the

> original source texts of many of the qigong techniques that are in

> practice today. However, this is just the tip of the iceberg since

> there are literally thousands of practices that are passed down

> through family practice. But like the many qigong doctors that I have

> had the privilege to meet, where there is a will there is a way. And I

> am sure that in your continued studies of medical qigong you will find

> the information you are seeking. You may want to start by emailing or

> telephoning Dr. Jerry Alan Johnson. His information can be found at:

>

> http://www.fivebranches.edu/programs/certificates/qigong.asp

>

> Regards,

> Rich

August 2, 2004

(JASON)I appreciate your comments, but in defense of this I have to say a

couple things: First I am sorry if you feel I intimidate others.

(RAY) I do not " feel " that you intimidate others it is what I have observed

from your language in the past,so it is what I " think " two different things.I

am not feeling emotionally " charged " about this just presenting observations

As we have no other cues such as real time tone or facial expression,body

language etc on this list,words are all we have to go by.This makes things

tricky.If you wish to be agressive or over the top,ok that's up to you.How

you are coming across is my opinion and I wondered if there is any room for

politeness and respect other than if you are feeling angry, or really want

to intimidate puposefully.Personally after all these years of dealing with

some of the most damaged people on the planet I am not afraid or intimidated

by you but I think some others are and I would like to hear what they have

to say sometimes without others " crushing them " I am sure there are so many

very sensitive people on this list who just clam up when met with such an

attitude,often they may be feeling their way and this I think can be

encouraged.Asking for references or proof is surely the best response,it is

how it is being done that seems a wee bit over the top.

(Jason)Some things that are presented are just wrong or right........

(Ray)This is true IMO too.Contrary to what you say you have often slammed

ideas with a good tongue lashing without stating this but say everyone

should just get overthemselves.I am the owner/director of a

multi-disciplinary health care centre, encompassing many different

modalities,such as Naturopathy,Chiropractic,Osteopathic,Tuina,Massage

Chinese Herbal Medicine.Kinesiology, Qi Gong and Acupuncture.EVERYONE has

there own way of doing things but the one thing I know from this interaction

is that we get the very best out of people if we let them have their " say

without being put down in any way. So many times there are disagreements but

a sense of co-operation and respect has held us together for a number of

years now,as I have said a little respect goes a long way.

(Jason) I think it should be known that I might not 100% believe in

what I am saying and may change my mind completely by the next day.......I

can to try to disprove the other.

(Ray)Exactly.So why spend so much time and energy disproving others.

(Jason)I would like to hear more of why you think I assume too much about

the

`new age movement?' I do have my assumptions and they may be wrong.

(Ray) What I was saying was in reference to people on this list AND new age

gobbledegook not everything thet sounds " New Age " actually is " New Age " A

therapy that is becoming very popular here is the placing of hot stones on

the body(over a towell).It is often performed by people with a very " New Age

" Deepak Chopra " kinda mind set and promoted as such.But in fact it is

thousands of years old and has been praciced for generations by people who

really know what they are doing,just because one doesn't know about

something does not make it " new age " is the point.

(Jason) The newage movement is a real thing that penetrates

our field, for better or worse. I believe it demands attention.

(Ray) I don't know if you have been to China,but my experiences there over

many many visits have shown me that in fact many so called " new age " ideas

and therapies are not at all new.

(Jason)I think if someone wants to present information on whatever, if they

have some source and are just MSUing why would they be intimidated?

(Ray)Because sometimes people believe things to be true from their own

experiences but do not YET have the evidence or resources that YOU would

feel satisfied with,but who knows they might be able to substantiate their

hypothesis to your satisfaction at a later date if they can be bothered.Just

because they cant prove it on demand doesnt make them WRONG necessarily.

I would be very surprised if your personal understanding of TCM has NOT gone

through many transformations from student days to the present,I know mine

has.Some things that you may have ardently defended 10 years ago may in fact

have done a complete 180 since then usually with the " help " of others

through seminars,books ,journals etc. As I have said people need to find

their way with encouragment and if requested-help.

(Jason)Finally in regard to QiGong like I have stated, I do believe in it.

Do you not think it is valuable to evaluate through history & present

day info (etc) what role it actually has in the world of TCM or just

CM? How effective is it really?presented information that I

have I.e. I have not read journal articles that present any research.

This is valuable and it true. It doesn't mean there are not journal

articles, just I have not read them. If there some (which I am sure

there are somewhere) I would love to see as many as possible. This

would really say something. I like to critically evaluate things, and

not just take things because someone said it was the macdaddy of

treatments.

(Ray)If you haven't been to China MAYBE that is the place to start,in every

hospital or Academy I have been to in ALL the major cities they have a Qi

Gong department.Often this is just one room and one or two practitioners so

the term department is a bit misleading.Nevertheless it is there.There are

journals specifically relating to all types of qi gong but would be of no

use to you unless you can read Mandarin.I met the editor of one of these

journals and we became friends,he spent each and every day writing up the

research and that was in a TCM hospital department.

I do not think the Journals would convince you of anything anyway because of

the difficulty with methodology,at that time and probably still the

research " would not stand up to scientific scrutiny i.e.controlled or blind

studies.That said there are still some very impressive things to be seen

performed by many talented people who are obviously well trained in ALL

aspects of TCM (IMO) not just a few trained by Mcdonalds although Mcdonalds

is also very popular!The use of Qi Gong was not limited to the preservation

of health either the many practitioners I saw were all treating disease.

(Jason)I suggest that instead of trying to `fix' me and the way I

communicate

you may try to understand where I am coming from and not take things

so seriously.

(Ray)My intention was not to " fix " you but to offer some observations so

that others who have seemed to go very quiet at times after a mauling can

get a chance to have their say too without being jumped on even if they are

wrong "

Regards to you too

Ray Ford

August 2, 2004

Rich,

thanx for the comments...

-

Chinese Medicine , " Rich "

<rfinkelstein@a...> wrote:

> Hi Jason,

>

> > To Rich: Thanx for the link, it does acknowledge some formal training

> > for medical qigong. It does not really mention the idea of external

> > qigong, but it seems that it is some part of it.

>

> The author of the article, Jerry Alan Johnson, has a link which

> describes his cource curriculum.

>

> http://www.fivebranches.edu/programs/certificates/qigong.asp

>

> His approach is different from the approach that I am learning but it

> may be of some interest to you.

>

> I can also recommend the Qigong massage and Qigong practice books and

> videos by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming. They are very accessible and extremely

> well thought out in their presentation. Dr. Yang has tried, within his

> means, to present the knowledge that was largely destroyed during the

> PRC cultural revolution or lost through time.

>

> http://www.ymaapub.com.

>

> There are no limits to the study of qigong. If you are interested,

> then I think it is well worth the learning time since it heightens the

> awareness of the qi that is being discussed in texts and the object of

> treatment.

>

> > The unfortunate thing seems to be that this is far from mainstream,

>

> One of the reasons I became interested in alternative medicines was

> because I became disenchanted with " mainstream thought " . I would think

> that physicians who are trying to break down some of the barriers of

> " mainstream medicine " would not be so much in a hurry to erect their

own.

>

> > and I guess that hospitals and universities are not that convinced

> of the efficacy.

>

> Hardly the case. The communist government suppresses information - but

> this should not be so much of a surprise. They totally rewrote Chinese

> history to suit their purposes. Or do you think that Chinese medicine

> was the one aspect of the culture that was left alone? Qigong practice

> in China is very widespread - I have heard estimates of anywhere from

> 80 million to 1/3 of the population. In any case, there is almost zero

> difference between qigong applied to oneself or to another. As I said,

> no diagnosis is necessary. It is a simple matter of moving qi (and

> eliminating obstructions) so that the body can heal itself. Or do you

> believe it absolutely requires a TCM diagnosis and the application of

> acupunture needles and/or herbs for the body to heal? This is where

> our disconnect may lie.

>

> > I

> > am really skeptical on how important `TCM doctors' think it is.

>

> There exists " egos " in every profession. Qigong doctors think what

> they are doing is best, tuina doctors think their practice is best,

> and acupuncturists/herbalists think their's is best. Western MDs think

> theirs is best and TCM is quackery. And so on. Human beings are the

> same everywhere. I guess numbers " rule " but it does not make the

> practice more or less effective. Or do you think I should go back to

> mainstream western medicine?

>

> You

> > always hear success stories (i.e. yours) but can this method be

> > translated into reproducible results.

>

> My doctor reproduces it every day. That is why he has a full calendar

> and has new patients referred to him in quantity. I do not know if

> anyone else can do what he does because he is unique - as am I. But I

> do not know of two acupuncturists who are exact twins and have the

> same results. I have been to several acupuncturists over the last 20

> years and each is quite different arriving at completely different

> diagnosis and applying entirely different treatments. And that is life.

>

> >I only say this because we all

> > know that Chinese Academia is very much into research. \

>

> Yes, it please the Western " market " . :-) After all, TCM is becoming a

> very big business for China as the dollar value increases

> exponentially. No doubt they will soon be doing " double blind studies "

> which will lead to symptomatic treatments in the same way that these

> studies effected western pharmaceutical medicines. It seems that

> people in general desire treatments that have been proven to relieve

> symptoms in " others " . I personally am not interested in those

> treatments for my own body.

>

> > I don't see

> > qigong even being researched in the journals I have checked out.

>

> There are many studies. You can find some translated on the web. But

> why would anyone publish studies for the very limited market that

> exists in the U.S. The primary TCM " export " at this time is herbs and

> acupunture. The Chinese Communist government is very focused on what

> makes money. How strange it all is. :-) The Chinese economy is now

> growing at more than twice the rate of the U.S. I don't know what to

> call it anymore. Communism with a hunger for money? :-)

>

> > Why

> > would journal that specialize in TCM not even mention it if it so

> > great (in their minds)?

>

> There are journals meant for your eyes and journals read in China. In

> any case, the qigong doctors are highly prized and can be found in all

> cities throughout China. My doctor practiced and lectured in China for

> over 25 years.

>

> > Is it just a fridge idea that can benefit

> > health but when it comes to healing disease is questionable?

>

> In my experiences it is most effective when combined with tuina. The

> tuina removes the obstructions and the qigong moves the qi. A great

> one-two combo. :-)

>

> > I do not

> > know… I still think this external qigong is not mainstream excepted as

> > TCM, otherwise not only would they be in the journals, but mentions in

> > textbooks, and Chinese docs would talk about it… Comments?

>

> I think that if you are interested, you will do your own research and

> come to your own conclusions as I did. There is a wealth of

> information available. The National Qigong Association is having a 4

> day conference in Lake Geneva, WI at the end of August. It should be

> interesting. I also know of a French doctor who teaches at a TCM

> school in my city who spent 20 years in Asia studying medicine. She

> teaches Tuina and qigong and says that in her practice in Asia she

> primarily used qigong because it was the most effective. So if you

> investigate, I think you will find lots of interesting information out

> there.

>

> Regards,

> Rich

August 2, 2004

Hi Dermot,

Unfortunately I have not had the opportunity to hear Dr Johnson yet.

My doctor/teacher was born in China where he learned medical

qigong/tuina as a family practice and later worked in TCM hospitals as

a lecturer and a practitioner. He also has practiced Daoist and

Buddhist meditation techniques for over 30 years as a way of

cultivating qi. It is a very interesting practice but I am sure there

are many other sucessuful medical qigong approaches that employ

different techniques. If it is possible to briefly describe your/Dr.

Johnson's approach, I would be highly appreciative. And thank you for

the book recommendation.

Regards,

Rich

Chinese Medicine , " Dermot O'Connor "

<dermot@a...> wrote:

> Do we share a teacher? I studied with Dr Jerry Alan Johnson and

completed

> the Master of Medical Qigong programme.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Dermot

>

August 2, 2004

Shanna,

You are right that phlegm theory is not basic, but I feel the concept

that there can be multiple kinds of phlegm (hot, cold, etc) is basic

theory 101 (for TCM). I think the point of the story was that the

shaman was correct, but was just a different language and view of

reality. I do not think that many of the ideas previously have

conformed to basic TCM belief system. This does that mean they are

wrong, but a little bit out of this tradition. You may believe

anything goes, and people can express anything, and that is fine. I

find many of these uprooted (meaning not-cited, or just `oral

tradition' tiresome) and detracting. Yes qigong works, but let us get

back to talking about some disease, Disease X. What use is it to say,

" well the this theory doesn't really apply to TCM theory, but to get

rid of the disease just do a gallbladder flush then remove the

energetic obstructions with some qigong… " What do I do with that?

Maybe just my own limitation, I just think productively first comes

from speaking a common language. When we have people on here that

deny facts like TCM has a very literary tradition and there is

fundamental rules then IMO, we have a problem.

I believe any tradition is just disproved (wrong) if others are doing

something successfully when they say it can't be done. Would you

agree? For example, if western medicine says there is just no way to

treat gallstones (that may be their reality), their reality is

correct, but the truth may be that they are just wrong, because CM

does treat Gallstones successfully. Does this logic make sense to

anyone? This is a somewhat anthropological approach in comparing

systems. Even if western medicine has citations they are wrong in the

big picture, and they might fight, because the paradigms clash, they

do not speak the same language. The common language becomes

reproducible results; Via non-dependent (on practitioner) techniques

via some type of research, comments?

-

Chinese Medicine , " shannahickle "

<shannahickle> wrote:

> Hi Jason

>

> I don't think phlegm theory could be considered basic. It's a

> complicated pathogen to dispel and to understand apparently. Perhaps

> the example you took over the top below wasn't the best you could

> have chosen to get your point across--I remember the dialogue being

> one of differing traditions and points of view with respect to

> treating phlegm diseases with citations on both sides supporting

> their aguments as to wheather it is appropriate to moxa phlegm

> conditions in general (even if the " no moxa " citation was the lame

> CAM). Another example of the inherant contradictions among Asian

> medicine theories and practices--nothing more, nothing less.

> Of course, unless your claim of " fictitious story " really means

> ficitious and doesn't refer to the recent dialogue on phlegm. If

> this is the case, then what in particular is your gripe here and why

> make up stories? IMHO, everyone on this group seems to be speaking

> the same language albeit coming from differing traditions, using

> different methods but all with some common root. This richness could

> serve us, not to say I think everyone is " right " according to my

> training and thinking. Just that everyone has the " right " to express

> their ideas concerning their practices.

>

> Shanna

>

August 2, 2004

Jason,

You continue to maintain a offensive demeanour at times and then say it

is an others problem when they take offence. That is rich; can't you

respect a persons reaction to verbal criticism is real AND is directly

caused by not what your points may be.....but how you express it?

Listen and respect for once.

On the topic of qigong healing...........it is not so uncommon in

Chinese hospitals as you assume. Have you been to china yet? I think

you need an extended stay for a good old reality check.

Anyway, Qi Gong is a loaded topic in China now...........loaded enough

to get you killed if you are thought to practice the " WRONG " kind.

Consider this when you assume that because you have not read about it

in a standard communist text it is not an important or real part of

modern TCM. Most of the real qigong (especially external

projection/healing) is not politically correct today due to the fa lun

gong movement and past conjurers making obscene money from false

claims.

The medical qi gong healers I met in china called themselves tuina

practitioners (in hospitals or private clinics) and only this.

Best Wishes,

Steve

On 02/08/2004, at 11:08 PM, wrote:

> Shanna,

>

> You are right that phlegm theory is not basic, but I feel the concept

> that there can be multiple kinds of phlegm (hot, cold, etc) is basic

> theory 101 (for TCM). I think the point of the story was that the

> shaman was correct, but was just a different language and view of

> reality. I do not think that many of the ideas previously have

> conformed to basic TCM belief system. This does that mean they are

> wrong, but a little bit out of this tradition. You may believe

> anything goes, and people can express anything, and that is fine. I

> find many of these uprooted (meaning not-cited, or just `oral

> tradition' tiresome) and detracting. Yes qigong works, but let us get

> back to talking about some disease, Disease X. What use is it to say,

> " well the this theory doesn't really apply to TCM theory, but to get

> rid of the disease just do a gallbladder flush then remove the

> energetic obstructions with some qigong… " What do I do with that?

> Maybe just my own limitation, I just think productively first comes

> from speaking a common language. When we have people on here that

> deny facts like TCM has a very literary tradition and there is

> fundamental rules then IMO, we have a problem.

>

> I believe any tradition is just disproved (wrong) if others are doing

> something successfully when they say it can't be done. Would you

> agree? For example, if western medicine says there is just no way to

> treat gallstones (that may be their reality), their reality is

> correct, but the truth may be that they are just wrong, because CM

> does treat Gallstones successfully. Does this logic make sense to

> anyone? This is a somewhat anthropological approach in comparing

> systems. Even if western medicine has citations they are wrong in the

> big picture, and they might fight, because the paradigms clash, they

> do not speak the same language. The common language becomes

> reproducible results; Via non-dependent (on practitioner) techniques

> via some type of research, comments?

>

> -

>

> Chinese Medicine , " shannahickle "

> <shannahickle> wrote:

> > Hi Jason

> >

> > I don't think phlegm theory could be considered basic. It's a

> > complicated pathogen to dispel and to understand apparently. Perhaps

> > the example you took over the top below wasn't the best you could

> > have chosen to get your point across--I remember the dialogue being

> > one of differing traditions and points of view with respect to

> > treating phlegm diseases with citations on both sides supporting

> > their aguments as to wheather it is appropriate to moxa phlegm

> > conditions in general (even if the " no moxa " citation was the lame

> > CAM). Another example of the inherant contradictions among Asian

> > medicine theories and practices--nothing more, nothing less.

> > Of course, unless your claim of " fictitious story " really means

> > ficitious and doesn't refer to the recent dialogue on phlegm. If

> > this is the case, then what in particular is your gripe here and why

> > make up stories? IMHO, everyone on this group seems to be speaking

> > the same language albeit coming from differing traditions, using

> > different methods but all with some common root. This richness could

> > serve us, not to say I think everyone is " right " according to my

> > training and thinking. Just that everyone has the " right " to express

> > their ideas concerning their practices.

> >

> > Shanna

August 2, 2004

Hi RoseAnne,

Chinese Medicine , ra6151@a... wrote:

> When Rich says that his Qi Gong Dr.

> doesn't diagnose, perhaps this could be restated as " the diagnsosis

is always the

> same - lack of flow of the vital qi " . (forgive me Rich and correct

me if this isn't right.)

I think this is basically true. The major premise is that 1) the body

is self-maintaining and self-healing if there is qi flow, and 2) qi

flow can be obstructed by a) " cold qi " or b) wind/damp. The

obstructions should be removed by for example 1) tuina techniques 2)

gua sha 3) cupping, 4) qigong techniques. The focus is always to move

the energy from the inside out toward the extremities - the direction

of healing.

I think this is a reasonable capsulization of the

approach/methodology. The approach has the advantage of being simple

enough for ordinary people to understand and begin their own

self-masssage program - e.g. just move the qi where there is

pain/obstruction - e.g, massage, stretching, yoga, qigong exercises,

taiji, etc., Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's qigong massage books and qigong

books provide excellent ideas in this respect. There are many books

written in China that also outline similar practices - e.g " The

mystery of Longevity " , " Practical Ways to Good Health Through Chinese

Traditional Medicine " , " Chinese Massage Therapy " .

> That treatment was explained as " encouraging

> the local cellular breathing " in the area of the injury. From the

outside, it > didn't look like she was doing anything but putting her

hands on the person

> and waiting. She explained by saying when there is an injury, some

of the cells

> will be struggling, and until their proper breathing (flow into and

out of

> the cell and the mitochondria) are restored, the injury can't heal.

Yes, my doctor's approach is very similar. His methodology calls for

complete bodywork of the entire body - muscle system, skeletal,

joints/tendons, meridian system - in order to ensure smooth flow.

Attention is payed to areas of obstruction - normally indicated by

pain or some visual marks that may, for example, be indicated by

cupping techniques. The body is treated as a complete system. Any

problems in one are - e.g kidney, liver, spleen - can be caused by

problems in any other area, whether it be the meridians, bowels,

vicera, skeletal system (e.g, inherited cold qi), spine, joints, etc.

Since everything is being " worked " then whereever the problems lie -

and there are normally many areas of obstruction - they will be worked

on.

> So now I do have a question for Rich: Is there ever a time, in your

opinion, when a 'qi gong' treatment is not the best treatment, or

perhaps makes things worse?

My doctor uses a combination of tuina and qigong techniques as I

outlined. Among the dozens of patients I have known to visit him, I

have never known a situation where there has not been progress.

However, there are patients who find his tuina methods to " forceful "

and stop going after a period of time. There has also been a case that

I know of that the patient got better but never fully recovered. Some

patients, I theorize, are not ready to " let go " of the underlying

emotional issues. However, the approach is very safe from my own

experiences but if others have different experiences I would be very

interested in hearing about them.

Thank you for assisting me in these discussions. I was very interested

in hearing about your own teachers root techniques.

Regards,

Rich

August 2, 2004

Chinese Medicine , " rayford "

<rford@p...> wrote:

>

> (Ray)Because sometimes people believe things to be true from their own

> experiences but do not YET have the evidence or resources that YOU would

> feel satisfied with,but who knows they might be able to substantiate

their

> hypothesis to your satisfaction at a later date if they can be

bothered.Just

> because they cant prove it on demand doesnt make them WRONG necessarily.

> I would be very surprised if your personal understanding of TCM has

NOT gone

> through many transformations from student days to the present,I know

mine

> has.Some things that you may have ardently defended 10 years ago may

in fact

> have done a complete 180 since then usually with the " help " of others

> through seminars,books ,journals etc. As I have said people need to find

> their way with encouragment and if requested-help.

I will say my stance one more time on this. I could care less if

someone has personal experience with no citations, etc. The point is,

just say it. i.e. " Hey I have no idea why this works, I can't find it

in any book, but on the last 5 patients with hepatitis with liver

constraint pattern i did blah blah, and wow they not only felt better

but their viral loads went down… " This IMO is great! If someone makes

a `statement of fact' whatever that may be, or quotes a statistic, you

bet I will ask for a source. Let us just be clear on where our

`stuff' is coming from. I don't think I have ever said otherwise.

But let me get your feedback on this, same scenario, and I say " On the

last 5 patients with MS I took an amethest crystal and layed in on

their heart chakra for 10 minutes and they felt better. " Even if they

say, I made up this technique it is not really TCM, but based on XYZ

and it has helped MS patients feel better... This is still not the

most useful info. but it is clear where it is from...

Is there a different in these 3?

-

August 2, 2004

Hi Jason,

Can I ask you which books from PRC China - Chinese medical or

otherwise - do you rely on for " historical facts " ?

Regards,

Rich

August 2, 2004

Rich,

I don't think I can briefly convey Dr. Johnson's approach in an e-mail. I

will say however, that he does encourage using both right and left brain

activity - so using all rational diagnostic skills from any previous

acupuncture/herbal training. Only after this do we perform a " Qigong

diagnosis " which involves feeling energy around the patient, primarily in

the first Wei Qi field which surrounds the body and Qigong practitioners

associate with the Lower Dantian (I'm sure you are familiar with this energy

centre).

In a general diagnosis we learn to recognise how energy patterns feel. This

comes with practise - but with proper direction usually comes quite quickly.

I have to say I was sceptical about Medical Qigong until I had my first

experience of feeling powerful energy sensations on my hands. So you learn

to recognise deficiency, stagnation, hot, cold, etc. etc.

After diagnosis you follow with treatment. With the Qigong doctors I

trained with in Shandong College of TCM in Jinan and Xi Yuan Hospital in

Beijing they encourage the use of needles - and projecting energy through

these needles. This is a very powerful technique, but Dr Johnson tends not

to use needles. He doesn't object however if you want to use them and I

have to say my acupuncture techniques improved considerably after Medical

Qigong training Using Medical Qigong you learn how to purge stagnation,

tonify where there is deficiency and then to regulate.

I know that this might not give you much insight into Dr Johnson's approach

buf you have any specific questions I'd be happy to answer them.

Kind regards

Dermot

-

" Rich " <rfinkelstein

Monday, August 02, 2004 1:57 PM

Re: re: study of TCM--Jason and all

> Hi Dermot,

>

> Unfortunately I have not had the opportunity to hear Dr Johnson yet.

> My doctor/teacher was born in China where he learned medical

> qigong/tuina as a family practice and later worked in TCM hospitals as

> a lecturer and a practitioner. He also has practiced Daoist and

> Buddhist meditation techniques for over 30 years as a way of

> cultivating qi. It is a very interesting practice but I am sure there

> are many other sucessuful medical qigong approaches that employ

> different techniques. If it is possible to briefly describe your/Dr.

> Johnson's approach, I would be highly appreciative. And thank you for

> the book recommendation.

>

> Regards,

> Rich

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Dermot O'Connor "

> <dermot@a...> wrote:

> > Do we share a teacher? I studied with Dr Jerry Alan Johnson and

> completed

> > the Master of Medical Qigong programme.

> >

> > Kind regards

> >

> > Dermot

August 2, 2004

Chinese Medicine , " Rich "

<rfinkelstein@a...> wrote:

> Hi Jason,

>

> Can I ask you which books from PRC China - Chinese medical or

> otherwise - do you rely on for " historical facts " ?

>

> Regards,

> Rich

I rely mainly on Unschuld, as stated previously. As you know his

sources are immense and he does not MSU. His 'facts' might be

debatable, but that is another issue. I.e. In Medicine in China he

has approx 70 (primary) Chinese sources, 29 Japanese and Chinese

secondary sources, and over 100+ secondary western sources. I would

never attempt to make historical connections or assumptions on my own,

I am just not well read enough. All I can do is mention someone that

has spent there life work doing such things. But as we all know,

history is a slippery slope in and of itself, but one can only go on

what is presented, not what one believes (IMO).

-

August 2, 2004

Steve,

I concurr totally with your observations about Qigong in China.

Most doctors in the hospitals I visited in China have a huge amount of

respect for Medical Qigong. Since Falun Gong there is a lot less Qigong and

Tai Chi performed in public places than there used to be.

Kind regards

Dermot

-

" Steve Slater " <dragonslive

Monday, August 02, 2004 2:17 PM