Guest guest Posted July 31, 2004 Report Share Posted July 31, 2004 Thank you for the elaboration, but I was aware that Qigong is part of modern TCM and knew that there are just qigong branches within hospitals, and I think my point got distorted, maybe from unclear writing... But I was though under the impression that these qigong hospitals were mainly teaching qigong to heal, are you saying that (in china) you get diagnosed and sent over to the qigong branch and you have a qigong healer put his hands on you? If so I was unaware of this and would like to hear more. Interesting… - Chinese Medicine , " Rich " <rfinkelstein@a...> wrote: > Hi Benjamin, > > If I might add to your comments which I very much agree with: > > > > > JASON SAID: {If one wants to just be some energy qi gong healer, fine > > this path might work, but again this is not TCM. I am only > > emphasizing this, because we are dealing with a subject TCM > > specifically on this list. } > > > > Is this a " TCM " list? Or is this a traditional Chinese medicine > list? Are we > > discussing the tradition of Chinese medicine, or the national > medicine of > > the PRC? If this is a " TCM " list exclusively, then your criticism is > valid > > within that narrow framework. > > As I noted in a post to Jason, qigong (chi kung) is very much part of > the national medicine of the PRC and is taught in universities in > China and is considered a seperate branch within hospitals that sits > alongside herbology, acupuncture, and tuina. There is no conflict, as > far as I can see, in discussing qigong within any definition of TCM. > > From my experiences, any type of qigong, which of course would include > medical qigong, is nearly impossible to trasnfer on as " text " . This > may account for part of the reason that it is not considered an > " exportable " product by the PRC - though interestingly taiji is > considered an exportable product (maybe because of the photos which > make it a " physical practice " as opposed to an internal practice). > There is also the problem that the PRC suppresses various forms of > qigong practice for political reasons. Finally, there is the cultural > issue. Most Westerners are not " open " to the possibilities of this > practice. Hence, its lack of propogation and penetration into Western > cultures. But for me and my friends, it and tuina, is what we rely on > for our medical treatments. > > Regards, > Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2004 Report Share Posted July 31, 2004 " wrote: > Thank you for the elaboration, but I was aware that Qigong is part of > modern TCM and knew that there are just qigong branches within > hospitals, and I think my point got distorted, maybe from unclear > writing... But I was though under the impression that these qigong > hospitals were mainly teaching qigong to heal, are you saying that (in > china) you get diagnosed and sent over to the qigong branch and you > have a qigong healer put his hands on you? If so I was unaware of > this and would like to hear more. Interesting… > > - ---- Hi Jason, IMO the highests forms of CM diagnsosis and elegantly refined and efective treatments require the use of 'Qi Energy' The cultivation of which is highly priced in Chinese culture. I say this from my own experience, since I routinely use Qi energy both to aid/ refine my diagnosis in term of Root dysharmonies and to find stagnated and deficient points on the relevant meridians. Since I work with acupuncture points and meridians making full use of the handed down information on meridians, organs, 5 element cycle etc., I consider my practice to be CM . I have also been known to succesfully apply this Qi energy to specific acupuncture points on children instead of using needles and this also, I consider to come under the auspices of CM. Also, when I insert a needle into a patient, it makes all the difference in the world, if I and my Qi are sufficiently present. I am also illiterate when it comes to the classics, Have never practiced with a master of acupuncture nor been to China or had any meaningful contact with any chinese acupuncturist. Sorry just one, who gave me pills for LIV stag and I had nose bleeds for weeks till I realized the cause. salvador Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2004 Report Share Posted August 1, 2004 Hi Jason Yes. Qi Gong doctors in China will diagnose a patient using a combination of traditional diagnostics agumented with qi techniques and then will " lay hands " usually near the patient to effect a healing response. If the doctor were actually to touch the patient it would be classified as Qi Gong massage as far as I know which, for the most part, consists of very light Tui Na type movements. Sometimes many healers may participate at once for things which take a lot of qi like busting up tumors. The Qi Gong doctor will then, also, prescribe and teach Qi Gong homework for the patient to perform for himself which might include a combination of internal and external forms. It was my experience when I was in China that each patient is permitted to request the type of therapy they want; herbal, acu, qi gong, tui na (though wheather they will be seen in a timely manner in these departments in another issue--Herbal is the shortest consult, needs little room to accomplish and therefore very popular and a doctor can see up to 40 patients in 3 hours). Due to the labor intensiveness of tui na and qi gong I think it takes " guan xi " or connections to get moved to the top of the list in these departments. Also patients who are perceived to need one therapy over another might get moved up in line i.e. back pain would be easier to get into Tui Na clinic than nausea and vomiting though both can be treated quite successfully with this modality. Shanna Chinese Medicine , " " wrote: > Thank you for the elaboration, but I was aware that Qigong is part of > modern TCM and knew that there are just qigong branches within > hospitals, and I think my point got distorted, maybe from unclear > writing... But I was though under the impression that these qigong > hospitals were mainly teaching qigong to heal, are you saying that (in > china) you get diagnosed and sent over to the qigong branch and you > have a qigong healer put his hands on you? If so I was unaware of > this and would like to hear more. Interesting… > > - > > > Chinese Medicine , " Rich " > <rfinkelstein@a...> wrote: > > Hi Benjamin, > > > > If I might add to your comments which I very much agree with: > > > > > > > > JASON SAID: {If one wants to just be some energy qi gong healer, fine > > > this path might work, but again this is not TCM. I am only > > > emphasizing this, because we are dealing with a subject TCM > > > specifically on this list. } > > > > > > Is this a " TCM " list? Or is this a traditional Chinese medicine > > list? Are we > > > discussing the tradition of Chinese medicine, or the national > > medicine of > > > the PRC? If this is a " TCM " list exclusively, then your criticism is > > valid > > > within that narrow framework. > > > > As I noted in a post to Jason, qigong (chi kung) is very much part of > > the national medicine of the PRC and is taught in universities in > > China and is considered a seperate branch within hospitals that sits > > alongside herbology, acupuncture, and tuina. There is no conflict, as > > far as I can see, in discussing qigong within any definition of TCM. > > > > From my experiences, any type of qigong, which of course would include > > medical qigong, is nearly impossible to trasnfer on as " text " . This > > may account for part of the reason that it is not considered an > > " exportable " product by the PRC - though interestingly taiji is > > considered an exportable product (maybe because of the photos which > > make it a " physical practice " as opposed to an internal practice). > > There is also the problem that the PRC suppresses various forms of > > qigong practice for political reasons. Finally, there is the cultural > > issue. Most Westerners are not " open " to the possibilities of this > > practice. Hence, its lack of propogation and penetration into Western > > cultures. But for me and my friends, it and tuina, is what we rely on > > for our medical treatments. > > > > Regards, > > Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2004 Report Share Posted August 1, 2004 Shanna, Interesting information.. Here is my next question: If qi projection qigong is integrated into the hospitals, how does one get this position of qigong healer? Do they obtain a degree from the university? Is it based on ability to let's say move a apple ? I have never seen any mention of such a curriculum (which doesn't mean much) but more importantly I have never seen in TCM books For X disease treat with these herbs, this acupuncture Rx and Y qigong method… Maybe this information has yet to make it to English language (quite possible..) Yet I never seen it in my limited Chinese reading either… also I have never heard Chinese Docs talk about it… It just seems like some sort of mystery.. Maybe there is website someone knows about that shows a university offering such a degree… can someone elaborate? - Chinese Medicine , " shannahickle " <shannahickle> wrote: > Hi Jason > > Yes. Qi Gong doctors in China will diagnose a patient using a > combination of traditional diagnostics agumented with qi techniques > and then will " lay hands " usually near the patient to effect a > healing response. If the doctor were actually to touch the patient > it would be classified as Qi Gong massage as far as I know which, > for the most part, consists of very light Tui Na type movements. > Sometimes many healers may participate at once for things which take > a lot of qi like busting up tumors. The Qi Gong doctor will then, > also, prescribe and teach Qi Gong homework for the patient to > perform for himself which might include a combination of internal > and external forms. It was my experience when I was in China that > each patient is permitted to request the type of therapy they want; > herbal, acu, qi gong, tui na (though wheather they will be seen in a > timely manner in these departments in another issue--Herbal is the > shortest consult, needs little room to accomplish and therefore very > popular and a doctor can see up to 40 patients in 3 hours). Due to > the labor intensiveness of tui na and qi gong I think it takes " guan > xi " or connections to get moved to the top of the list in these > departments. Also patients who are perceived to need one therapy > over another might get moved up in line i.e. back pain would be > easier to get into Tui Na clinic than nausea and vomiting though > both can be treated quite successfully with this modality. > > Shanna > > Chinese Medicine , " " > wrote: > > Thank you for the elaboration, but I was aware that Qigong is part > of > > modern TCM and knew that there are just qigong branches within > > hospitals, and I think my point got distorted, maybe from unclear > > writing... But I was though under the impression that these qigong > > hospitals were mainly teaching qigong to heal, are you saying that > (in > > china) you get diagnosed and sent over to the qigong branch and you > > have a qigong healer put his hands on you? If so I was unaware of > > this and would like to hear more. Interesting… > > > > - > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Rich " > > <rfinkelstein@a...> wrote: > > > Hi Benjamin, > > > > > > If I might add to your comments which I very much agree with: > > > > > > > > > > > JASON SAID: {If one wants to just be some energy qi gong > healer, fine > > > > this path might work, but again this is not TCM. I am only > > > > emphasizing this, because we are dealing with a subject TCM > > > > specifically on this list. } > > > > > > > > Is this a " TCM " list? Or is this a traditional Chinese medicine > > > list? Are we > > > > discussing the tradition of Chinese medicine, or the national > > > medicine of > > > > the PRC? If this is a " TCM " list exclusively, then your > criticism is > > > valid > > > > within that narrow framework. > > > > > > As I noted in a post to Jason, qigong (chi kung) is very much > part of > > > the national medicine of the PRC and is taught in universities in > > > China and is considered a seperate branch within hospitals that > sits > > > alongside herbology, acupuncture, and tuina. There is no > conflict, as > > > far as I can see, in discussing qigong within any definition of > TCM. > > > > > > From my experiences, any type of qigong, which of course would > include > > > medical qigong, is nearly impossible to trasnfer on as " text " . > This > > > may account for part of the reason that it is not considered an > > > " exportable " product by the PRC - though interestingly taiji is > > > considered an exportable product (maybe because of the photos > which > > > make it a " physical practice " as opposed to an internal > practice). > > > There is also the problem that the PRC suppresses various forms > of > > > qigong practice for political reasons. Finally, there is the > cultural > > > issue. Most Westerners are not " open " to the possibilities of > this > > > practice. Hence, its lack of propogation and penetration into > Western > > > cultures. But for me and my friends, it and tuina, is what we > rely on > > > for our medical treatments. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2004 Report Share Posted August 1, 2004 This url may be of interest to you: http://www.qigongmedicine.com/Merchant/preface.html I do not know anything about the author however what he says rings true. If I were to guess, qigong doctors are probably either family trained or trained in martial arts schools and then go on to get medical degrees, after which they practice qigong. I cannot imagine how a person can be trained in a standard academic enviornment. In a Chinese martial arts school they would be practicing qigong skills for many hours in a day. Family trained people would spend a good part of their childhood practicing qigong meditation. It would be interesting to hear others experiences. My doctor is family trained. Rich Chinese Medicine , " " wrote: > Thank you for the elaboration, but I was aware that Qigong is part of > modern TCM and knew that there are just qigong branches within > hospitals, and I think my point got distorted, maybe from unclear > writing... But I was though under the impression that these qigong > hospitals were mainly teaching qigong to heal, are you saying that (in > china) you get diagnosed and sent over to the qigong branch and you > have a qigong healer put his hands on you? If so I was unaware of > this and would like to hear more. Interesting… > > - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2004 Report Share Posted August 1, 2004 Hi Salvatore, > IMO the highests forms of CM diagnsosis and elegantly refined and > efective treatments require the use of 'Qi Energy' The cultivation of > which is highly priced in Chinese culture. Yes, this is pretty much how I feel nowadays. I have tried many modalities, as have my friends, and at this point we seem to have come to an agreement that this qigong combined with tuina are the most effective approach - and one that we can also assimilate into our daily lives. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2004 Report Share Posted August 1, 2004 Hi Jason, > are you saying that (in > > china) you get diagnosed and sent over to the qigong branch and you > > have a qigong healer put his hands on you? If so I was unaware of > > this and would like to hear more. Interesting… > > I have not been to a qigong hospital in China but my current qigong/tuina doctor practiced in China for almost 30 years. He uses both tuina and qigong. In so far as qigong is concerned, at times it will touch and at times he will not. The purpose of the treatments is to remove obstructions in the body so that the qi can flow within the body and into/out of the body. Qi that flows can naturally heal the body - just like water flowing into a dried branch in a tree. This type of treatment requires a completely different " diagnostic " approach than that which is found in TCM texts. Once you have practiced qigong or taiji, this will make much more sense since it is rather easy to feel the " qi layer " that surrounds the body (wei qi) and how it interacts with the qi of the client/patient. However, it does take an " open mind " - that is a consciousness that is open to learning this technique. If you are not open to it now, you may change your mind in the future. Anyone can learn it and it is a very nice skill to have. Nothing " mystical " in it at all. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2004 Report Share Posted August 1, 2004 Hi Shanna, Thank you for this vividly interesting presentation. I'm not sure where you were in China, but Dr. Kang was in Shanghai prior to your time in China. He fits the profile of the kind of doctor that you are speaking of who can accomplish a lot with tuina ... as well as with qigong but he calls it tuina. You are also correct that Dr. Kang would much prefer to see lots of patients and simply write herbal prescriptions. His manipulations are becoming somewhat legendary around here. I've worked in his clinic and seen him accomplish many surprising things. I'm a very Western science guy and teach anatomy/physiology. So I have tended in the past (1980s) to believe that Chinese medicine is for chronic non-emergency medicine type issues ... not for setting broken bones. I've been strongly rebuked for having such an opinion by the likes of Dr. Kang and others of his cohort who claim that their tuina procedures are superior to WM orthopedic procedures. In 1989 I had the chance to personally experience as a patient one long and extraordinarily arduous tuina treatment from Dr. Kang lasting 1.5 hours. Dr. Kang was treating my long standing problem arising from a fractured T-12 vertebra and a ruptured disc, so he had a lot of work to do. I also sense he was kind of trying to prove a point to me (and also to pay me back for helping him.) The success of his treatment was quite unexpected. I don't have a ruptured disc now nor have I had back pain in that area in these past fifteen years. My level of disability before that treatment was not insignificant, so I owe Dr. Kang quite a lot. He also proved his point regarding the efficacy of tuina. At the time of the treatment it felt like I was in a marathon wrestling match. 90 minutes is a long time to go through the painful rigors of a full-on tuina treatment. It's also a long time for the practitioner to perform tuina at a high intensity. As to your point about " needing some pull " in order to see such a physician for tuina, you are correct. Dr. Kang and others like him tend to guard their energies. I've only seen him do this much work on few people though he's done some interesting brief manipulations. Z'ev is also correct in noting that such training tends not to come with the standard TCM college curriculum. Dr. Kang endured a long family training before arriving in a TCM medical university. Thanks again for your presentation. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen Hi Jason Yes. Qi Gong doctors in China will diagnose a patient using a combination of traditional diagnostics agumented with qi techniques and then will " lay hands " usually near the patient to effect a healing response. If the doctor were actually to touch the patient it would be classified as Qi Gong massage as far as I know which, for the most part, consists of very light Tui Na type movements. Sometimes many healers may participate at once for things which take a lot of qi like busting up tumors. The Qi Gong doctor will then, also, prescribe and teach Qi Gong homework for the patient to perform for himself which might include a combination of internal and external forms. It was my experience when I was in China that each patient is permitted to request the type of therapy they want; herbal, acu, qi gong, tui na (though wheather they will be seen in a timely manner in these departments in another issue--Herbal is the shortest consult, needs little room to accomplish and therefore very popular and a doctor can see up to 40 patients in 3 hours). Due to the labor intensiveness of tui na and qi gong I think it takes " guan xi " or connections to get moved to the top of the list in these departments. Also patients who are perceived to need one therapy over another might get moved up in line i.e. back pain would be easier to get into Tui Na clinic than nausea and vomiting though both can be treated quite successfully with this modality. Shanna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2004 Report Share Posted August 1, 2004 Dear Emmanual Your experiences dovetail very closely that of my own. That is, the treatment time per session is long and vigorous, typically at least one-hour. I personally spend no less than 1.5 hours. My doctor has similar sucesses in very difficult cases - e.g ruptured discs. Other western trained M.D.s who use his services are very surprised at the results. He has been able to reverse strongly deteriorating situations which all other doctors (western and eastern) considered lost. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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