Guest guest Posted July 31, 2004 Report Share Posted July 31, 2004 For all who are interested in modern journals, in the latest JTCM (BeiJing, June 2004), there is an article on cadavers in relation to needling the pleura of the lung at GB21. They look at how far one can go to get into X tissue. Here is a the 1st paragraph: " AS an important acupoint on the shoulder, gb21 is indicated for … However, improper needling on this acupoint may cause pneumothorax due to its location close to the apex and upper lobe of the lung. THIS IS A CONDITION WHICH IS OFTEN SEEN IN CLINICAL REPORTS. Following is a detailed topography we obtained from 20 cadavers (40 shoulders) and would like to share … " It is a very interesting article, and furthermore, I would guess that some people find cadavers quite useful… - Chinese Medicine , jason davies <jason@d...> wrote: > > " susie parkinson " > wrote: > > Jason, are there many cases of pneumothorax from acupuncture? Its not > > common at all in the UK, I don't believe there has been a case for > years. > > The most significant case I heard of was a Doctor causing a > pneumothorax and > > he would have had access to cadavers in his training. > > maybe cases don't always get recorded in this country (UK). A GP friend of mine saw a patient with pneumothorax from acupuncture 2 weeks ago and knew of another GP friend who had also seen one recently! they were not serious presentations, but pneumothorax nevertheless. > jason davies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2004 Report Share Posted August 1, 2004 Hi Jason I agree that the use of cadavers would be quite informative for anyone doing acupuncture at any depth. However, keep in mind that the Chinese use 24 guage needles as compared to our 34-36 guage in common use making them more dangerous at the same depth. Also, in my experience, the Chinese practicing on Chinese people in China are more likely to needle to the limit while in the west practitioners seem to in general needle at or just deep to the shallow limit. There is pressure in China for deep needling and vigorous stimulation from patients in particular since they really don't believe there will be any gain without pain. Here we have the opposite type of patient who is actually more pleased with a painless and effective treatment. Just something to think about. Shanna Chinese Medicine , " " wrote: > For all who are interested in modern journals, in the latest JTCM > (BeiJing, June 2004), there is an article on cadavers in relation to > needling the pleura of the lung at GB21. They look at how far one can > go to get into X tissue. Here is a the 1st paragraph: > > " AS an important acupoint on the shoulder, gb21 is indicated for … > However, improper needling on this acupoint may cause pneumothorax due > to its location close to the apex and upper lobe of the lung. THIS IS > A CONDITION WHICH IS OFTEN SEEN IN CLINICAL REPORTS. Following is a > detailed topography we obtained from 20 cadavers (40 shoulders) and > would like to share … " > > It is a very interesting article, and furthermore, I would guess that > some people find cadavers quite useful… > > - > > > Chinese Medicine , jason davies > <jason@d...> wrote: > > > > " susie parkinson " > > wrote: > > > Jason, are there many cases of pneumothorax from acupuncture? Its not > > > common at all in the UK, I don't believe there has been a case for > > years. > > > The most significant case I heard of was a Doctor causing a > > pneumothorax and > > > he would have had access to cadavers in his training. > > > > maybe cases don't always get recorded in this country (UK). A GP > friend of mine saw a patient with pneumothorax from acupuncture 2 > weeks ago and knew of another GP friend who had also seen one > recently! they were not serious presentations, but pneumothorax > nevertheless. > > jason davies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2004 Report Share Posted August 1, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " shannahickle " <shannahickle> wrote: > Hi Jason > > I agree that the use of cadavers would be quite informative for > anyone doing acupuncture at any depth. really that is the point, but also if it stops 1 pneomothorax that is worth it... But IMO there is so much more that can be learned from cadavers, much more than the safety issue, especially if one treats musculoskeletal disorders. It is just more (accurate) information vs. just a book... However, keep in mind that > the Chinese use 24 guage needles as compared to our 34-36 guage in > common use making them more dangerous at the same depth. Also, in my > experience, the Chinese practicing on Chinese people in China are > more likely to needle to the limit while in the west practitioners > seem to in general needle at or just deep to the shallow limit. > There is pressure in China for deep needling and vigorous > stimulation from patients in particular since they really don't > believe there will be any gain without pain. Here we have the > opposite type of patient who is actually more pleased with a > painless and effective treatment. Just something to think about. > Of course I agree, but there are still western practitioners (in the states) that do practice this type of needling. There are also many Chinese in the states that do also and teach this style. Obviously something is going on if there were 4 pneomothoraxes last year just in Colorado. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 Incidence of needle-induced pneumothorax is either on the rise, or more likely, is being better reported. It is moot if the larger part of these were caused by acupuncturists, or by physicians who had incorporated acupuncture in their practice. A great deal of the reportage is in professional journals for physicians. In a write-up for Acupncture Today I discussed the condition, reported incidence, emphasizing GB 21 as it is, if misused, a prime point for accidents, offering tactics to stay out of trouble. If interedted have a look at: http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2004/jun/06keikobad.html Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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