Guest guest Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 << I think infants and toddlers can be said to experience near- authentic action and spontaneity because of lack of conditioning. But should we all go around throwing fits and soiling ourselves? Isn't a certain amount of history, knowledge and experience useful as a base on which to grow? Lon: Infants have original nature (de) and sages have virtue (de). The actions of infants are spontaneous but also wholly egoic. That is to say that an infant's sole motivation is self comfort and survival. It's a fine day, for example, when parents note that a child takes an action motivated by concern for something larger than self. Yes, history, knowledge, and experience can be a fine base on which to grow. And, they can also be a swamp that one never gets out of or sees beyond. Many individual's live deluded lives victimized by their personal history and the same can be true for cultures, including that of CM. This attachment is present when we refuse to let go of the past, even for a moment, to look at what's true now based entirely on its own merits. Shanna: On what do you base your treatment then if not on thought at some level? Lon: Awareness. Consciousness, thought, and feeling are all distinct. There are three large sources of input. 1. An impression the moment I see the person based on spontaneous recognition prior to thought. The Nan Jing calls this " To Look and to Know " . " Gui Pi Tang just walked into the room " . 2. Discussion. Then I talk to the person, sensing what they present and how they relate to it. There can be a mixture of thought and spontaneous recognition here as well. 3. Pulses, tongue, etc. How is what they said represented in the physiology as gleaned from pulse and tongue " There can be a mixture of thought and spontaneous recognition here as well. For example, I might touch the pulse and spontaneously ask a question or have the instantaneous recognition that I need to treat certain points. Sometimes, all three line up and confirm each other. Sometimes not. Sometimes I have to refer to theory. But, when I'm doing my best work there's just a flow between perception, recognition, and action that is uninterrupted by thought. Shanna: Do you choose points according to their indications? Lon: I actually never studied the TCM point indications like " drains damp " , " tonifies qi " prior to clinical practice. I learned to treat based on 5 element considerations as well as on psychospiritual basis of point function passed down orally through my teachers. Over the years of clinical practice I'd research what others had found to compare to my own experiences and I've learned some of the TCM point functions this way. My texts elaborate my orientation toward and understandings of point functions (850 pages worth in " Clinical Practice " ). Shanna: This would involve learning from the past and thought. Is it just the diagnosis which comes " spontaneously and prior to thought " or does the whole treatment/diagnosis come in some mysterious flash? How to know what to keep and what to throw out? Lon: After a while. If sufficient attention has been paid, one can shoot bulls eyes fairly consistently blindfolded. Shanna: Shouldn't these things be well considered, using the entire knowledge base as a place to start? Lon: Yes as a beginning stage in the experientially young student. Nothing I've said should e construed as suggesting that practitioners or students should just go out and do " whatever " based on their own thoughts or feelings. I'm elaborating what I've seen is true after 25 years of rigorous study and practice in CM. Discipline and fixing the will is the basis of all attainment. I'm just saying that the highest levels of attainment, at some point, go beyond what has been before. And, I'm suggesting that what is of value historically in Cm is the development of an inductive and synthetic mode of thought which is potentially more easily attained now by students than spending a lot of time focused on the language or history of CM. Shanna: I'm not against reform and advancement or even intuition in the medicine. I'm only suggesting that treating a patient " prior to thought " could have grave consequences. Lon: Yes. True. It would be arrogant until one could actually do it. So, look at the patient's arm, touch it, put a dot where Si-6 is, then measure. Did you get it right? After getting it right 2 or 3 times don't bother ever measuring again. I talk extensively about the process of cultivating intuition (one of the highest virtues) in both my texts. Shanna: Why not use our capacity for thought, for " conscious choice " as you say below, in our treatments? >> Lon: Its a good idea. The best choice is to cultivate the single pointedness that revives the heart, focuses the shen, restores intuition, and creates spontaneity in action. << Shanna: Everything is happening now, even physical evolution. But both physical and conscious evolution have a history which got them here via a combination of steady-state and punctuated evolutionary events. Even consciousness can experience slow growth (maturation from 2 year old to adult) mixed with punctuated evolution (near-death experience, loss of loved one, flash of insight on a sunny day). >> Lon-Yes. But, your so interested in taking time. Why? I'm merely pointing out that something is possible that doesn't take time and that THAT'S what I'm most interested in. What I'm talking about is the exponential change that occurs when a human single pointedly focuses their consciousness on its own evolution. Yes, matter has been at it for 15 billion years, and.......I'm most interested in what's possible now.......what's new......to help us meet the challenges of the extraordinary circumstances that we now live in. << Shanna: Yes, I do think that nature holds a neutral position. Lon: Im not sure what you mean by nature. Do you mean " matter " ? There is arising and there is nonarising. If one thinks of the void as God then the imperative will be emptiness and peace. If one places relatively more emphasis on the manifest world then God is the creative force to become...the very interest that makes something come from nothing. Here, the imperative is to evolve and god is not seen as being beyond the world but rather as being " involuted " into it and revealed in the process of evolution. So, I'd say god is made manifest through matter and it impresses me that for 15 billion years the continual and unbroken trend in matter is to *evolve* toward increased states of complexity and integration. Shanna:The direction of the evolution of our own individual conciousnesses is done via each person's free will and is for the most part outside the realm of mother nature, assuming a person was born with normal intelligence. Lon: I wouldn't see us as in any way separate from nature. We are nature. We are the most highly evolved form of matter in the *known* universe and, still nature. So, yes there's 15 billion years of history behind us and yet, we, as matter, have a form of consciousness that can drop its history wholly to see what's true now. << Shanna: How to drop the past without losing what is of value with what has been left behind? >> Lon: Sometimes " Transcend (go beyond) and include " is good. This means we go beyond what was but include it. For example, ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. Sometimes transcend and exclude is better. This means that a *higher* perspective can illuminate what needs to be let go of because its unwholsome. Having a history does not necessarily mean something is good or bad......But to make that discernment we'd have to hold a higher, more evolved, perspective-one that's free from history itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 Hi Lonny From your previous posts I guess I assumed you were a lot more radical than you seem to purport here. I find your ideas interesting and refreshing although I'd still really like to learn to read Chinese and study both the classics and current journals. I do use many of the " methods " you speak of in my clinic as well ie Tian Ma Gou Teng Yin has walked into my office four times this week alone! Not knowing much at all about 5 element except the exchanges I've seen here, I can't really comment. It does appear to be " new " and therefore not as tried and true as Classical . But then how many of us are practicing that? TCM is probably around the same age as 5 element isn't it? Though the tradition to which it is tied (classical) is much older indeed (and maybe you'd say musty and worn out; restrictive even?). Thanks for sharing your views and philosophy here. I get it and I think it may just be a matter of personal style. Seems the patient still is healed anyway. As for poor Emmanuel's accidental post, it sounded much worse than it was meant. He and I have developed a very casual e-lationship and he certainly meant no harm or particular judgement--just quip as you said. " Hugs " from him are strictly ancestral and an inside joke with us. Please don't read more into it than was meant--strictly to me. As to Wilbur and Cohen, I d to What Is Enlightenment for a couple of years but couldn't really relate to their tone and found them a bit arrogant and therefore quite un-Buddhist--believing themselves to have discovered a " new Buddhism " it seems. I guess I'm just more of an armchair Shambhala Sun kind of person. Simplicity, no diagrams, just inner experience. Less talk, more experience, no plan. Now I'm sounding like you. Again, the paradoxes!! Thanks again for your patient sharing. I come away more illuminated as to your methods and beliefs. Good luck. Respectfully, Shanna Chinese Medicine , Spiritpathpress@a... wrote: > > << I think infants and toddlers can be said to experience near- > > authentic action and spontaneity because of lack of conditioning. > > But should we all go around throwing fits and soiling ourselves? > > Isn't a certain amount of history, knowledge and experience useful > > as a base on which to grow? > > Lon: Infants have original nature (de) and sages have virtue (de). The > actions of infants are spontaneous but also wholly egoic. That is to say that an > infant's sole motivation is self comfort and survival. It's a fine day, for > example, when parents note that a child takes an action motivated by concern for > something larger than self. > Yes, history, knowledge, and experience can be a fine base on which to > grow. And, they can also be a swamp that one never gets out of or sees beyond. > Many individual's live deluded lives victimized by their personal history and > the same can be true for cultures, including that of CM. This attachment is > present when we refuse to let go of the past, even for a moment, to look at > what's true now based entirely on its own merits. > > > Shanna: On what do you base your treatment then if not on thought at some > > level? > > Lon: Awareness. Consciousness, thought, and feeling are all distinct. > > > There are three large sources of input. > > 1. An impression the moment I see the person based on spontaneous recognition > prior to thought. The Nan Jing calls this " To Look and to Know " . " Gui Pi Tang > just walked into the room " . > > 2. Discussion. Then I talk to the person, sensing what they present and how > they relate to it. There can be a mixture of thought and spontaneous > recognition here as well. > > 3. Pulses, tongue, etc. How is what they said represented in the physiology > as gleaned from pulse and tongue " There can be a mixture of thought and > spontaneous recognition here as well. For example, I might touch the pulse and > spontaneously ask a question or have the instantaneous recognition that I need to > treat certain points. > > Sometimes, all three line up and confirm each other. Sometimes not. Sometimes > I have to refer to theory. But, when I'm doing my best work there's just a > flow between perception, recognition, and action that is uninterrupted by > thought. > > > Shanna: Do you choose points according to their indications? > > Lon: I actually never studied the TCM point indications like " drains damp " , > " tonifies qi " prior to clinical practice. I learned to treat based on 5 > element considerations as well as on psychospiritual basis of point function > passed down orally through my teachers. Over the years of clinical practice I'd > research what others had found to compare to my own experiences and I've learned > some of the TCM point functions this way. My texts elaborate my orientation > toward and understandings of point functions (850 pages worth in " Clinical > Practice " ). > > > Shanna: This would involve learning from the past and thought. Is it just > the > > diagnosis which comes " spontaneously and prior to thought " or does > > the whole treatment/diagnosis come in some mysterious flash? How to > > know what to keep and what to throw out? > > Lon: After a while. If sufficient attention has been paid, one can shoot > bulls eyes fairly consistently blindfolded. > > Shanna: Shouldn't these things be > > well considered, using the entire knowledge base as a place to > > start? > > Lon: Yes as a beginning stage in the experientially young student. Nothing > I've said should e construed as suggesting that practitioners or students should > just go out and do " whatever " based on their own thoughts or feelings. I'm > elaborating what I've seen is true after 25 years of rigorous study and practice > in CM. Discipline and fixing the will is the basis of all attainment. I'm > just saying that the highest levels of attainment, at some point, go beyond what > has been before. And, I'm suggesting that what is of value historically in Cm > is the development of an inductive and synthetic mode of thought which is > potentially more easily attained now by students than spending a lot of time > focused on the language or history of CM. > > > Shanna: I'm not against reform and advancement or even intuition in > > the medicine. I'm only suggesting that treating a patient " prior to > > thought " could have grave consequences. > > Lon: Yes. True. It would be arrogant until one could actually do it. So, look > at the patient's arm, touch it, put a dot where Si-6 is, then measure. Did > you get it right? After getting it right 2 or 3 times don't bother ever > measuring again. I talk extensively about the process of cultivating intuition (one > of the highest virtues) in both my texts. > > > Shanna: Why not use our capacity for > > thought, for " conscious choice " as you say below, in our treatments? >> > > Lon: Its a good idea. The best choice is to cultivate the single pointedness > that revives the heart, focuses the shen, restores intuition, and creates > spontaneity in action. > > << Shanna: Everything is happening now, even physical evolution. But > > both physical and conscious evolution have a history which got them > > here via a combination of steady-state and punctuated evolutionary > > events. Even consciousness can experience slow growth (maturation > > from 2 year old to adult) mixed with punctuated evolution (near- death > > experience, loss of loved one, flash of insight on a sunny day). >> > > Lon-Yes. But, your so interested in taking time. Why? I'm merely pointing out > that something is possible that doesn't take time and that THAT'S what I'm > most interested in. What I'm talking about is the exponential change that occurs > when a human single pointedly focuses their consciousness on its own > evolution. Yes, matter has been at it for 15 billion years, and.......I'm most > interested in what's possible now.......what's new......to help us meet the > challenges of the extraordinary circumstances that we now live in. > > > << Shanna: Yes, I do think that nature holds a neutral position. > > Lon: Im not sure what you mean by nature. Do you mean " matter " ? There is > arising and there is nonarising. If one thinks of the void as God then the > imperative will be emptiness and peace. If one places relatively more emphasis on the > manifest world then God is the creative force to become...the very interest > that makes something come from nothing. Here, the imperative is to evolve and > god is not seen as being beyond the world but rather as being " involuted " into > it and revealed in the process of evolution. So, I'd say god is made manifest > through matter and it impresses me that for 15 billion years the continual and > unbroken trend in matter is to *evolve* toward increased states of complexity > and integration. > > > Shanna:The > > direction of the evolution of our own individual conciousnesses is > > done via each person's free will and is for the most part outside > > the realm of mother nature, assuming a person was born with normal > > intelligence. > > Lon: I wouldn't see us as in any way separate from nature. We are nature. We > are the most highly evolved form of matter in the *known* universe and, still > nature. So, yes there's 15 billion years of history behind us and yet, we, as > matter, have a form of consciousness that can drop its history wholly to see > what's true now. > > > > << Shanna: How to drop the past without losing what is of value with > > what has been left behind? >> > > Lon: Sometimes " Transcend (go beyond) and include " is good. This means we go > beyond what was but include it. For example, ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. > Sometimes transcend and exclude is better. This means that a *higher* > perspective can illuminate what needs to be let go of because its unwholsome. Having > a history does not necessarily mean something is good or bad......But to make > that discernment we'd have to hold a higher, more evolved, perspective-one > that's free from history itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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