something sinister or something wellcome????

[Guest guest]

Just to explain things a bit further.to our friends in the US; The Welcome

Foundation supports a lot of medical research including historical research

It also has an excellent library in London with a good section on

oriental medicine.The Welcome foundation has sprung from the pharmaceutical

industry, but it is a foundation set up to support medical research in all

areas It is also not Oxford but SOAS, the School of Oriental and Asian

Studies at the University of London that is being funded on this at present.

SOAS itself is coming up with some excellent research on early Chinese

medicine at the moment

 

 

Regards

 

Helene.

-

<Chinese Medicine >

<Chinese Medicine >

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 10:17 AM

Digest Number 573

 

 

 

There are 17 messages in this issue.

 

Topics in this digest:

 

1. Re: ZEV Evolution & freedom

<

2. RE: something sinister or something wellcome????

" susie parkinson " <susie

3. Re: ideas on the " Healing Crisis "

<

4. Re: Autopsies and Acupuncture

" briansbeard " <brian_s_beard

5. Re: RE: something sinister or something wellcome????

" " <zrosenbe

6. Re: Re: something sinister or something wellcome????

John Garbarini <johnlg_2000

7. Re: Autopsies and Acupuncture

" shannahickle " <shannahickle

8. Shanna-Cutting edge

Spiritpathpress

9. Re: ideas on the " Healing Crisis "

" shannahickle " <shannahickle

10. Re: ZEV Evolution & freedom

" shannahickle " <shannahickle

11. Re: Digest Number 570

" John Jiang " <john.jiang

12. Shanna #2

Spiritpathpress

13. Re: RE: something sinister or something wellcome????

" Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen

14. Re: Re: ideas on the " Healing Crisis "

" " <zrosenbe

15. Re: Shanna #2

" Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen

16. apologies

" Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen

17. Re: Shanna-Cutting edge

" shannahickle " <shannahickle

 

 

______________________

______________________

 

Message: 1

Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:39:06 -0700

<

Re: ZEV Evolution & freedom

 

Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:14:37, Spiritpathpress wrote:

 

>> I only take issue with the notion that the most relevant truth is to be

found in

the past or needs to be referenced to the past. Freedom has no history.

 

There's clearly no absolute necessity that mastery come through historical

or literary study. Some are gifted or incarnated with vision and healing

powers. For most, however, the path entails cultivation, and tradition can

be seen as accumulated hints and shortcuts that nurture cultivation.

 

And there's a notion of freedom called " positive " freedom, as distinct from

" negative " freedom; or the " freedom of having a capability " vs. the

" freedom from some restraint " . The example used when I was first exposed

to this, many years ago, was the freedom to be able to read classical Greek

(e.g. poetry or philosophy). The parallel with classical Chinese medical

writing readily jumps out.

 

Also, the kind of freedom realized through a meditative practice when one

becomes able to reliably " relate " to perception/experience rather than only

" react " , for most people is a function of long, arduous cultivation. But,

again, not necessarily so.

 

Back when I studied music history, and followed history into the present

(in co-study and camaraderie with composition students), there was tension

between those who undertook the classical path of intense training and

first mastery and imitation of prior compositional techniques before

attempting to freely express themselves, and those who just wanted to be

immediately free and " creative " .

 

Again, there are people like Mozart, who had to study just enough to learn

where the keys were and how to write notes, and whose late masterworks

seemed to just roll off his pen. But most were more like Beethoven, who

studied for years with Haydn, and labored endlessly through sketch books

and multiple versions and refinements to arrive at the late quartets. Some

of the earliest masterworks of Schoenberg, Berg and Webern were orchestral

arrangements of organ works by J.S. Bach, nuanced with orchestral

sophistication and mastery on a par with Richard Strauss and Debussy.

 

With the freedom of mastery, one can experience history as a component of

the present (as in Carl Boehm's " Implicate Order " ).

 

 

 

 

______________________

______________________

 

Message: 2

Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:34:31 +0100

" susie parkinson " <susie

RE: something sinister or something wellcome????

 

Are you sure the money came from a pharmaceutical company, or was it from

the Wellcome Foundation, the latter is NOT a pharma company. Lets give

credit where it is due, if it is the pharma company (which I doubt) then its

a nice surprise, but I'm pretty sure it will be the Wellcome Foundation

which as I said before, is not connected to the pharma company.

Susie

 

 

Message: 16

Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:33:39 -0700

" Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen

Re: Re: something sinister or something wellcome????

 

Z'ev, Mystir and All,

 

This is a group of Oxford University (Dr. Hsu, Dr. Lo, etc.) scholars doing

the heavy lifting in Chinese medicine for all concerned. That they chose to

ask " the big guys " for money to get this work done is no surprise

considering they are the academic superstars of the current cohort of people

engaged in Chinese medicine. I suppose they could have asked Bill Gates

Foundation or the UK government. The fact that they had the confidence to

seek grant money from a pharmaceutical company is actually a good sign,

IMHO. Chinese medicine deserves a place in the sun at the highest level of

scholarly endeavor.

 

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

 

______________________

______________________

 

Message: 3

Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:38:13 -0700

<

Re: ideas on the " Healing Crisis "

 

In the context of " classical Chinese medicine " , Jeffery Yuen puts forward

ideas relating to this in terms of the body's natural (1) response to PFs

(pathogenic factors). As I understand it, the idea is that symptoms can

often be expression of a natural healing response, as distinct from direct

expression by the PF. E.g. a fever may be less pathogenic than an

expression of the healing process. (This idea is recognized in Western

theory, in for instance the inflammatory response. I'm sure this idea isn't

news to most of us, either in Chinese or Western arenas.)

 

A good example he often cites is damp-heat: In each particular case, is the

dampness response to a heat excess, or is the heat a response to excess

dampness? (or possibly some combination). He stresses that diagnostic care

is called for to figure this out, and with treatment go for resolving the

root and avoid unnecessarily suppressing the response. (This is somewhat

more sophisticated than what I remember from basic/school TCM training,

which was treat damp-heat by ridding damp and heat. Scanning back through

the CAM and other books from the Foreign Language Press confirms this. )

His view of antibiotics, shared by others also, is that they simply smother

heat with dampness, essentially driving the heat into latency and hence

further inward, i.e. engendering a deep and chronic condition.

 

The understanding of differentiating PF and response plays a major part in

his interpretations of the classics. For example, the SuWen as dealing

basically with wind as the root PF (i.e. inappropriate adaptation to change

(one can see " wind " as a metaphor for change) in weather, seasons, etc.),

with cold as a close 2nd, and, in succeeding stages of development, damp,

heat, etc. developing as responses by the channel systems (the ZangFu

perspective he considers more explicitly developed only later, in the Song

era) as the PF fights its way deeper. (Again, he didn't make this up; the

ShangHanLun spells it systematically and at length. Elucidating the SuWen

in this way is new to me.) In his SuWen exegesis, the various levels of

response -- e.g. throat bi, rebellious Qi, chest Bi, eventually to the low

back, and finally up through the back Shu points and into the organs - are

then manifestations of various mechanisms of the channel systems to block

or divert further, deeper penetration of the wind (pathogenic change).

 

So in this context, " healing crisis " may be when treatment (or nature) is

succeeding in driving the PF back through the levels to the surface (Wei

level) and then entirely out. This approach then also shows up later in the

GongXiaPai (School of Attacking and Purging), which " reduces " etiology to

weakness in the Wei level (Lung and Liver), and focuses treatment on

drawing to and expelling at that level, which is at times somewhat harsh.

 

So it does appear that Hering's Law and these viewpoints in Chinese

tradition embody similar insights.

 

(1) Side-issue: I find myself using " nature " and " natural " , as many of us

do. But, as far as I can tell, Chinese thought doesn't have words exactly

the same as these. On the one hand, earth (di) is sometimes used in a way

that approximates our sense of nature around us, i.e. trees, rivers,

animals etc., or the sense of " mother nature " . Weather and climate

correspond more to heaven (tian). (Some Native American belief systems use

analogous constructs of Great Spirit and Mother Earth.) On the other hand,

referring to natural process, the Chinese word may be more " dao " (the way

of things (de), colloquially a road or path). This, however, does not

necessarily mean " Doaism " . Confucian writers/writings also use the term, as

in the Han classics. One might be tempted to interpret use of this term as

Daoist. But according to P. Unschuld and others, the overall tenor of the

NeiJing reflects more a Confucian approach, the Han medicine mirroring

structures - e.g. canals and officials -- and values of the social and

political organizing principles.

 

 

 

 

______________________

______________________

 

Message: 4

Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:46:48 -0000

" briansbeard " <brian_s_beard

Re: Autopsies and Acupuncture

 

 

The school I went to had a joint program with a medical school to

spend one day a semester with cadavers that were already dissected. I

don't know if it actually helped my point location, but I thought it

was very helpful to be able to see where needles went, and be able to

play around freely. Gee, if you needle SJ17 up it really does go into

the ear canal. Some areas of the body you really have to take to

heart the warnings in the texts, and other areas are not as dangerous

as you're led to believe. More knowledge, more confidence, less risk.

 

--brian

 

 

 

 

______________________

______________________

 

Message: 5

Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:52:19 -0700

" " <zrosenbe

Re: RE: something sinister or something wellcome????

 

My understanding is that the Wellcome Foundation used to be connected

with the pharmaceutical company of same/similar name, but is an

independent institution now. If anyone has any other information on

this, I will gladly stand corrected. However, it doesn't change the

point that we should be careful to attack issues in a black and white

manner, such as the original issue of pharmaceutical companies funding

Chinese medical research.

 

 

On Jul 26, 2004, at 3:34 AM, susie parkinson wrote:

 

> Are you sure the money came from a pharmaceutical company, or was it

> from

> the Wellcome Foundation, the latter is NOT a pharma company. Lets give

> credit where it is due, if it is the pharma company (which I doubt)

> then its

> a nice surprise, but I'm pretty sure it will be the Wellcome Foundation

> which as I said before, is not connected to the pharma company.

> Susie

 

 

 

______________________

______________________

 

Message: 6

Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:30:17 -0700 (PDT)

John Garbarini <johnlg_2000

Re: Re: something sinister or something wellcome????

 

Your sentiments are right on target; you brought up a

good point I didn't consider before: when all herbal

suppliers are driven out, then the big cos. will sell

their cheap knock-offs to whomever's left, then these

cheapo concoctions will convince everyone to go

running back to their MDs, who will take us back as

errant but still-loved children.

John Garbarini

 

--- mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote:

> That sounds about right. Nothing short of a world

> wide strike will derail the Market Forces

> coordinated plans to further milk the lower classes

> for everything they've got, and then keep milking.

> Not paranoid, informed.

>

> stephen macallan <stephenmacallan

> wrote:hello all,

> the wellcome foundation (pharma company)

> are hosting the

> IASTAM asian medicine tradion and modernity

> conference on 2/12/04 in

> london. Topics are CM and Ayurvedic med. Big names

> in CM are there -

> Hugh Macpherson, Vivienne Lo, Volker Scheid, etc.

>

> Is this getting into bed with the enemy?

>

> Are we being seduced in order to get screwed?

>

>

> Lets see, here in Uk, we may lose our right to buy

> high dose mins

> and vits and low dose all sorts of currently freely

> available

> supplements. We've lost kava kava (cos of 15 dubious

> adverse reactions

> throught the whole of Europe), we nearly lost St.

> Johns wort on

> account of a similar number of dubious adverse

> consequences

> worldwide!! We've lost chinese herbs too but I'm a

> western-style

> herbalist so I'm not familiar with what we've lost

> but I do get the

> written formal notifications.

>

> We may lose many, many, many herbs (Chinese ones

> too) because of

> soon-to-be-implemented restrictions involving

> licensing and production

> facilities. The suppliers here are ceasing to supply

> minority herbs in

> preparation for the requirements.

>

> Gossip is the plan is for herbalists to write

> presciptions for

> patients to go off to Boots the chemist to get them

> filled and Boots

> will buy off cheapest suppliers - which will be Big

> Pharma bulk buying

> cheap and nasty herb ingredients bulk processing

> into cheap and nasty

> herbal products which won't work very well. Patients

> won't get better

> and will go back to doctors for expensive but

> profitable drugs. Net

> result? Alternative medicine fails and Big Pharma

> wins.

>

> 'Course I may be a paranoid conspiracy theorist.

>

> Just becos I'm paranoid doesn't mean nobody is

> watching me.

>

> All I know is I'm not going.

>

> Boycott anyone?

>

> regardez

>

> Stephen

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

______________________

______________________

 

Message: 7

Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:50:03 -0000

" shannahickle " <shannahickle

Re: Autopsies and Acupuncture

 

Hi all

 

Although I've never had the honor of dissecting a cadaver, I've

always thought it would be important--several even (short, tall,

infant, adult, fat, thin). We were supposed to have been able to

observe this during the Massage School training I had years ago but

the class got cancelled at the local University and we missed our

chance. I've always regretted this and thought that getting deeper

than the surface would be most informative; especially since getting

into acupuncture. While I don't think it is " absolutely essential " I

do think it would be most helpful. Our forefathers have left us with

standards as to needling depth and cautions about piercing body

structures which we are required to take at face value and always

remember from a rote learning perspective. The " seeing and touching "

of the interior would, for me, a kinesthetic learner, really be

helpful and most illuminating I think.

 

Thanks, Shanna

 

Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel

Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote:

> Hi Attilio,

>

> I've been teaching human dissection now since 1986 and have fully

dissected close to 300 human cadavers. It makes acupuncture a

different experience if you have worked on each tissue and

understand its resilience. It also gives you confidence that you

are not doing bodily harm in most locations ... or it could give you

pause, as well, in a few locations. I can't think of too many

points away from the thorax where I'd be afraid to needle. If

people learned really good surface anatomy as might be taught in tui

na, that in itself would certainly help their acupuncture

technique. Robert Hayden's discussion of palpating to find " live

points " was one of my favorite posts of recent times. Unlike other

local colleges, my anatomy/physiology course at Merritt College in

Oakland, CA uses human cadavers.

>

> Respectfully,

> Emmanuel Segmen

>

>

> Hi all,

>

> I recently learnt that all acupuncture students are required to

perform at

> least three autopsies. This is to further advance their point

location. Of

> course, their not looking for the actual point, but rather the

body's

> geography. Understanding the skeletal, muscular, nervous, etc

systems is

> paramount to correct point location. I have been studying point

location

> myself and found that certain body points, or rather landmarks,

greatly help

> finding the point. If I had the chance to examine a corpse and

acupuncture

> it, then I can also further develop my understanding of not only

location,

> but depth and possible adverse effects, i.e. puncturing the

Zangfu.

>

> However, most if not all acupuncture schools in the West, do not

have the

> facilities to allow students to perform autopsies and practice

their

> acupuncture location and needle insertion. I believe that in

China, students

> can actually buy a corpse for as little as 800 yuan, £55. I

would recommend

> that acupuncture schools and colleges adopt autopsy examinations

if at all

> possible.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Attilio

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry just to correct myself - SOAS stands for School of Oriental and

African Studies in case someone notices - my apologies

 

Helene

-

" McMurtrie Watson " <hencaliban

<Chinese Medicine >

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 10:57 PM

something sinister or something wellcome????

 

 

> Just to explain things a bit further.to our friends in the US; The Welcome

> Foundation supports a lot of medical research including historical

research

> . It also has an excellent library in London with a good section on

> oriental medicine.The Welcome foundation has sprung from the

pharmaceutical

> industry, but it is a foundation set up to support medical research in all

> areas It is also not Oxford but SOAS, the School of Oriental and Asian

> Studies at the University of London that is being funded on this at

present.

> SOAS itself is coming up with some excellent research on early Chinese

> medicine at the moment

>

>

> Regards

>

> Helene.

> -

> <Chinese Medicine >

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Tuesday, July 27, 2004 10:17 AM

> Digest Number 573

>

>

>

> There are 17 messages in this issue.

>

> Topics in this digest:

>

> 1. Re: ZEV Evolution & freedom

> <

> 2. RE: something sinister or something wellcome????

> " susie parkinson " <susie

> 3. Re: ideas on the " Healing Crisis "

> <

> 4. Re: Autopsies and Acupuncture

> " briansbeard " <brian_s_beard

> 5. Re: RE: something sinister or something wellcome????

> " " <zrosenbe

> 6. Re: Re: something sinister or something wellcome????

> John Garbarini <johnlg_2000

> 7. Re: Autopsies and Acupuncture

> " shannahickle " <shannahickle

> 8. Shanna-Cutting edge

> Spiritpathpress

> 9. Re: ideas on the " Healing Crisis "

> " shannahickle " <shannahickle

> 10. Re: ZEV Evolution & freedom

> " shannahickle " <shannahickle

> 11. Re: Digest Number 570

> " John Jiang " <john.jiang

> 12. Shanna #2

> Spiritpathpress

> 13. Re: RE: something sinister or something wellcome????

> " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen

> 14. Re: Re: ideas on the " Healing Crisis "

> " " <zrosenbe

> 15. Re: Shanna #2

> " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen

> 16. apologies

> " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen

> 17. Re: Shanna-Cutting edge

> " shannahickle " <shannahickle

>

>

> ______________________

> ______________________

>

> Message: 1

> Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:39:06 -0700

> <

> Re: ZEV Evolution & freedom

>

> Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:14:37, Spiritpathpress wrote:

>

> >> I only take issue with the notion that the most relevant truth is to be

> found in

> the past or needs to be referenced to the past. Freedom has no history.

>

> There's clearly no absolute necessity that mastery come through historical

> or literary study. Some are gifted or incarnated with vision and healing

> powers. For most, however, the path entails cultivation, and tradition can

> be seen as accumulated hints and shortcuts that nurture cultivation.

>

> And there's a notion of freedom called " positive " freedom, as distinct

from

> " negative " freedom; or the " freedom of having a capability " vs. the

> " freedom from some restraint " . The example used when I was first exposed

> to this, many years ago, was the freedom to be able to read classical

Greek

> (e.g. poetry or philosophy). The parallel with classical Chinese medical

> writing readily jumps out.

>

> Also, the kind of freedom realized through a meditative practice when one

> becomes able to reliably " relate " to perception/experience rather than

only

> " react " , for most people is a function of long, arduous cultivation. But,

> again, not necessarily so.

>

> Back when I studied music history, and followed history into the present

> (in co-study and camaraderie with composition students), there was tension

> between those who undertook the classical path of intense training and

> first mastery and imitation of prior compositional techniques before

> attempting to freely express themselves, and those who just wanted to be

> immediately free and " creative " .

>

> Again, there are people like Mozart, who had to study just enough to learn

> where the keys were and how to write notes, and whose late masterworks

> seemed to just roll off his pen. But most were more like Beethoven, who

> studied for years with Haydn, and labored endlessly through sketch books

> and multiple versions and refinements to arrive at the late quartets. Some

> of the earliest masterworks of Schoenberg, Berg and Webern were orchestral

> arrangements of organ works by J.S. Bach, nuanced with orchestral

> sophistication and mastery on a par with Richard Strauss and Debussy.

>

> With the freedom of mastery, one can experience history as a component of

> the present (as in Carl Boehm's " Implicate Order " ).

>

>

>

>

> ______________________

> ______________________

>

> Message: 2

> Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:34:31 +0100

> " susie parkinson " <susie

> RE: something sinister or something wellcome????

>

> Are you sure the money came from a pharmaceutical company, or was it from

> the Wellcome Foundation, the latter is NOT a pharma company. Lets give

> credit where it is due, if it is the pharma company (which I doubt) then

its

> a nice surprise, but I'm pretty sure it will be the Wellcome Foundation

> which as I said before, is not connected to the pharma company.

> Susie

>

>

> Message: 16

> Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:33:39 -0700

> " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen

> Re: Re: something sinister or something wellcome????

>

> Z'ev, Mystir and All,

>

> This is a group of Oxford University (Dr. Hsu, Dr. Lo, etc.) scholars

doing

> the heavy lifting in Chinese medicine for all concerned. That they chose

to

> ask " the big guys " for money to get this work done is no surprise

> considering they are the academic superstars of the current cohort of

people

> engaged in Chinese medicine. I suppose they could have asked Bill Gates

> Foundation or the UK government. The fact that they had the confidence to

> seek grant money from a pharmaceutical company is actually a good sign,

> IMHO. Chinese medicine deserves a place in the sun at the highest level

of

> scholarly endeavor.

>

> Respectfully,

> Emmanuel Segmen

>

>

>

> ______________________

> ______________________

>

> Message: 3

> Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:38:13 -0700

> <

> Re: ideas on the " Healing Crisis "

>

> In the context of " classical Chinese medicine " , Jeffery Yuen puts forward

> ideas relating to this in terms of the body's natural (1) response to PFs

> (pathogenic factors). As I understand it, the idea is that symptoms can

> often be expression of a natural healing response, as distinct from direct

> expression by the PF. E.g. a fever may be less pathogenic than an

> expression of the healing process. (This idea is recognized in Western

> theory, in for instance the inflammatory response. I'm sure this idea

isn't

> news to most of us, either in Chinese or Western arenas.)

>

> A good example he often cites is damp-heat: In each particular case, is

the

> dampness response to a heat excess, or is the heat a response to excess

> dampness? (or possibly some combination). He stresses that diagnostic

care

> is called for to figure this out, and with treatment go for resolving the

> root and avoid unnecessarily suppressing the response. (This is somewhat

> more sophisticated than what I remember from basic/school TCM training,

> which was treat damp-heat by ridding damp and heat. Scanning back through

> the CAM and other books from the Foreign Language Press confirms this. )

> His view of antibiotics, shared by others also, is that they simply

smother

> heat with dampness, essentially driving the heat into latency and hence

> further inward, i.e. engendering a deep and chronic condition.

>

> The understanding of differentiating PF and response plays a major part in

> his interpretations of the classics. For example, the SuWen as dealing

> basically with wind as the root PF (i.e. inappropriate adaptation to

change

> (one can see " wind " as a metaphor for change) in weather, seasons, etc.),

> with cold as a close 2nd, and, in succeeding stages of development, damp,

> heat, etc. developing as responses by the channel systems (the ZangFu

> perspective he considers more explicitly developed only later, in the Song

> era) as the PF fights its way deeper. (Again, he didn't make this up; the

> ShangHanLun spells it systematically and at length. Elucidating the SuWen

> in this way is new to me.) In his SuWen exegesis, the various levels of

> response -- e.g. throat bi, rebellious Qi, chest Bi, eventually to the low

> back, and finally up through the back Shu points and into the organs - are

> then manifestations of various mechanisms of the channel systems to block

> or divert further, deeper penetration of the wind (pathogenic change).

>

> So in this context, " healing crisis " may be when treatment (or nature) is

> succeeding in driving the PF back through the levels to the surface (Wei

> level) and then entirely out. This approach then also shows up later in

the

> GongXiaPai (School of Attacking and Purging), which " reduces " etiology to

> weakness in the Wei level (Lung and Liver), and focuses treatment on

> drawing to and expelling at that level, which is at times somewhat harsh.

>

> So it does appear that Hering's Law and these viewpoints in Chinese

> tradition embody similar insights.

>

> (1) Side-issue: I find myself using " nature " and " natural " , as many of us

> do. But, as far as I can tell, Chinese thought doesn't have words exactly

> the same as these. On the one hand, earth (di) is sometimes used in a way

> that approximates our sense of nature around us, i.e. trees, rivers,

> animals etc., or the sense of " mother nature " . Weather and climate

> correspond more to heaven (tian). (Some Native American belief systems use

> analogous constructs of Great Spirit and Mother Earth.) On the other hand,

> referring to natural process, the Chinese word may be more " dao " (the way

> of things (de), colloquially a road or path). This, however, does not

> necessarily mean " Doaism " . Confucian writers/writings also use the term,

as

> in the Han classics. One might be tempted to interpret use of this term as

> Daoist. But according to P. Unschuld and others, the overall tenor of the

> NeiJing reflects more a Confucian approach, the Han medicine mirroring

> structures - e.g. canals and officials -- and values of the social and

> political organizing principles.

>

>

>

>

> ______________________

> ______________________

>

> Message: 4

> Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:46:48 -0000

> " briansbeard " <brian_s_beard

> Re: Autopsies and Acupuncture

>

>

> The school I went to had a joint program with a medical school to

> spend one day a semester with cadavers that were already dissected. I

> don't know if it actually helped my point location, but I thought it

> was very helpful to be able to see where needles went, and be able to

> play around freely. Gee, if you needle SJ17 up it really does go into

> the ear canal. Some areas of the body you really have to take to

> heart the warnings in the texts, and other areas are not as dangerous

> as you're led to believe. More knowledge, more confidence, less risk.

>

> --brian

>

>

>

>

> ______________________

> ______________________

>

> Message: 5

> Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:52:19 -0700

> " " <zrosenbe

> Re: RE: something sinister or something wellcome????

>

> My understanding is that the Wellcome Foundation used to be connected

> with the pharmaceutical company of same/similar name, but is an

> independent institution now. If anyone has any other information on

> this, I will gladly stand corrected. However, it doesn't change the

> point that we should be careful to attack issues in a black and white

> manner, such as the original issue of pharmaceutical companies funding

> Chinese medical research.

>

>

> On Jul 26, 2004, at 3:34 AM, susie parkinson wrote:

>

> > Are you sure the money came from a pharmaceutical company, or was it

> > from

> > the Wellcome Foundation, the latter is NOT a pharma company. Lets give

> > credit where it is due, if it is the pharma company (which I doubt)

> > then its

> > a nice surprise, but I'm pretty sure it will be the Wellcome Foundation

> > which as I said before, is not connected to the pharma company.

> > Susie

>

>

>

> ______________________

> ______________________

>

> Message: 6

> Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:30:17 -0700 (PDT)

> John Garbarini <johnlg_2000

> Re: Re: something sinister or something wellcome????

>

> Your sentiments are right on target; you brought up a

> good point I didn't consider before: when all herbal

> suppliers are driven out, then the big cos. will sell

> their cheap knock-offs to whomever's left, then these

> cheapo concoctions will convince everyone to go

> running back to their MDs, who will take us back as

> errant but still-loved children.

> John Garbarini

>

> --- mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote:

> > That sounds about right. Nothing short of a world

> > wide strike will derail the Market Forces

> > coordinated plans to further milk the lower classes

> > for everything they've got, and then keep milking.

> > Not paranoid, informed.

> >

> > stephen macallan <stephenmacallan

> > wrote:hello all,

> > the wellcome foundation (pharma company)

> > are hosting the

> > IASTAM asian medicine tradion and modernity

> > conference on 2/12/04 in

> > london. Topics are CM and Ayurvedic med. Big names

> > in CM are there -

> > Hugh Macpherson, Vivienne Lo, Volker Scheid, etc.

> >

> > Is this getting into bed with the enemy?

> >

> > Are we being seduced in order to get screwed?

> >

> >

> > Lets see, here in Uk, we may lose our right to buy

> > high dose mins

> > and vits and low dose all sorts of currently freely

> > available

> > supplements. We've lost kava kava (cos of 15 dubious

> > adverse reactions

> > throught the whole of Europe), we nearly lost St.

> > Johns wort on

> > account of a similar number of dubious adverse

> > consequences

> > worldwide!! We've lost chinese herbs too but I'm a

> > western-style

> > herbalist so I'm not familiar with what we've lost

> > but I do get the

> > written formal notifications.

> >

> > We may lose many, many, many herbs (Chinese ones

> > too) because of

> > soon-to-be-implemented restrictions involving

> > licensing and production

> > facilities. The suppliers here are ceasing to supply

> > minority herbs in

> > preparation for the requirements.

> >

> > Gossip is the plan is for herbalists to write

> > presciptions for

> > patients to go off to Boots the chemist to get them

> > filled and Boots

> > will buy off cheapest suppliers - which will be Big

> > Pharma bulk buying

> > cheap and nasty herb ingredients bulk processing

> > into cheap and nasty

> > herbal products which won't work very well. Patients

> > won't get better

> > and will go back to doctors for expensive but

> > profitable drugs. Net

> > result? Alternative medicine fails and Big Pharma

> > wins.

> >

> > 'Course I may be a paranoid conspiracy theorist.

> >

> > Just becos I'm paranoid doesn't mean nobody is

> > watching me.

> >

> > All I know is I'm not going.

> >

> > Boycott anyone?

> >

> > regardez

> >

> > Stephen

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ______________________

> ______________________

>

> Message: 7

> Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:50:03 -0000

> " shannahickle " <shannahickle

> Re: Autopsies and Acupuncture

>

> Hi all

>

> Although I've never had the honor of dissecting a cadaver, I've

> always thought it would be important--several even (short, tall,

> infant, adult, fat, thin). We were supposed to have been able to

> observe this during the Massage School training I had years ago but

> the class got cancelled at the local University and we missed our

> chance. I've always regretted this and thought that getting deeper

> than the surface would be most informative; especially since getting

> into acupuncture. While I don't think it is " absolutely essential " I

> do think it would be most helpful. Our forefathers have left us with

> standards as to needling depth and cautions about piercing body

> structures which we are required to take at face value and always

> remember from a rote learning perspective. The " seeing and touching "

> of the interior would, for me, a kinesthetic learner, really be

> helpful and most illuminating I think.

>

> Thanks, Shanna

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel

> Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote:

> > Hi Attilio,

> >

> > I've been teaching human dissection now since 1986 and have fully

> dissected close to 300 human cadavers. It makes acupuncture a

> different experience if you have worked on each tissue and

> understand its resilience. It also gives you confidence that you

> are not doing bodily harm in most locations ... or it could give you

> pause, as well, in a few locations. I can't think of too many

> points away from the thorax where I'd be afraid to needle. If

> people learned really good surface anatomy as might be taught in tui

> na, that in itself would certainly help their acupuncture

> technique. Robert Hayden's discussion of palpating to find " live

> points " was one of my favorite posts of recent times. Unlike other

> local colleges, my anatomy/physiology course at Merritt College in

> Oakland, CA uses human cadavers.

> >

> > Respectfully,

> > Emmanuel Segmen

> >

> >

> > Hi all,

> >

> > I recently learnt that all acupuncture students are required to

> perform at

> > least three autopsies. This is to further advance their point

> location. Of

> > course, their not looking for the actual point, but rather the

> body's

> > geography. Understanding the skeletal, muscular, nervous, etc

> systems is

> > paramount to correct point location. I have been studying point

> location

> > myself and found that certain body points, or rather landmarks,

> greatly help

> > finding the point. If I had the chance to examine a corpse and

> acupuncture

> > it, then I can also further develop my understanding of not only

> location,

> > but depth and possible adverse effects, i.e. puncturing the

> Zangfu.

> >

> > However, most if not all acupuncture schools in the West, do not

> have the

> > facilities to allow students to perform autopsies and practice

> their

> > acupuncture location and needle insertion. I believe that in

> China, students

> > can actually buy a corpse for as little as 800 yuan, £55. I

> would recommend

> > that acupuncture schools and colleges adopt autopsy examinations

> if at all

> > possible.

> >

> > Kind regards

> >

> > Attilio

> >

> >

> >

> >