Guest guest Posted July 27, 2004 Report Share Posted July 27, 2004 Kayte, I just saw a patient today in the school clinic here at PCOM (NY) who said she tends to get outbreaks of genital herpes after acupuncture, especially if the acupuncturist causes a kind of 'nerve' sensation with the needling. This patient was also Qi and Blood deficient. I am thinking that too much stimulation to the nerves could cause the outbreak, since the herpes virus retreats into the spinal cord nerve roots when not in active outbreak. I think it's possible to give acu. treatments in this situation, but perhaps going only for " Qi sensation " and not " nerve pinging " would be prudent. (Also, you do mean herpes, right? Your heading says HPV which means human papilloma virus.) -roseanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2004 Report Share Posted July 27, 2004 Has anyone heard of cases where acupuncture causes a break out of Genital Herpes that has been dormant for more than 10 years. In particular this involves a 40 year old female who was being treated for rotator cuff tendonitis due to blood & Qi xu with cold damp obstruction. Treatment consisted of gentle local stimulation of the shoulder with tonification of back shu UB 18, 20. The herpes breakout ocurred within 10 days of treatment, on a vacation at high elevation 14,000 ft, after an irregular midcycle bleed that began with spotting, normal flow and continued spotting for almost 10 days. (pregnancy/miscarriage has not been ruled out - but would have been very early on) Any comments or experiences would be appreciated. Kayte Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2004 Report Share Posted July 27, 2004 Sorry I often do that HSV - Not HPV Any thoughts on the short cycle though? Kayte Chinese Medicine , ra6151@a... wrote: > Kayte, > > I just saw a patient today in the school clinic here at PCOM (NY) who said > she tends to get outbreaks of genital herpes after acupuncture, especially if > the acupuncturist causes a kind of 'nerve' sensation with the needling. This > patient was also Qi and Blood deficient. I am thinking that too much > stimulation to the nerves could cause the outbreak, since the herpes virus retreats into > the spinal cord nerve roots when not in active outbreak. > > I think it's possible to give acu. treatments in this situation, but perhaps > going only for " Qi sensation " and not " nerve pinging " would be prudent. > > (Also, you do mean herpes, right? Your heading says HPV which means human > papilloma virus.) > > -roseanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 As far as the mid-cycle bleed goes, if she was already qi & xue xu before she was at 14K feet, depending on what elevation she lives at she'd be even more for a while up at that level, which would indicate the spleen would be taking a hit not holding the blood. And if she's exercising alot more than usual the spleen will already be working harder than normal trying to get extra qi transformed and transported. Chinese Medicine , " acupuncture4health " <acupuncture4health@r...> wrote: > Has anyone heard of cases where acupuncture causes a break out of > Genital Herpes that has been dormant for more than 10 years. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " acupuncture4health " <acupuncture4health@r...> wrote: > Has anyone heard of cases where acupuncture causes a break out of > Genital Herpes that has been dormant for more than 10 years. > > In particular this involves a 40 year old female who was being > treated for rotator cuff tendonitis due to blood & Qi xu with cold > damp obstruction. Treatment consisted of gentle local stimulation > of the shoulder with tonification of back shu UB 18, 20. > > The herpes breakout ocurred within 10 days of treatment, on a > vacation at high elevation 14,000 ft, after an irregular midcycle > bleed that began with spotting, normal flow and continued spotting > for almost 10 days. (pregnancy/miscarriage has not been ruled out - > but would have been very early on) > > Any comments or experiences would be appreciated. > > Kayte --- Hi Kayte, Usually a brake out of herpes is due to a weakening of the immnune system. The irregular bled as well as the breakout of herpes sugests to me that the previous acupuncture treatment was innapropriate to that patient. I apreciate how this could be a dilemma if you are following symptoms by the text book. Herpes in the genitals also sugests a posibility of symptoms like Damp-Heat from excess energy in the LIV due to Ton of BL-18, But then again BL-20 could also be responsible.(or a mixture of both) Depressing though this might sound Both LIV and SP might have been innapropriate. Hard to say without more info. But the posibilities are large . salvador Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 I don't think it would be possible to isolate acupuncture as a cause of reemergence of genital herpes in such a situation,, especially with the factors you describe below. In my opinion, any relationship between the two is strictly circumstantial. On Jul 27, 2004, at 11:22 AM, acupuncture4health wrote: > Has anyone heard of cases where acupuncture causes a break out of > Genital Herpes that has been dormant for more than 10 years. > > In particular this involves a 40 year old female who was being > treated for rotator cuff tendonitis due to blood & Qi xu with cold > damp obstruction. Treatment consisted of gentle local stimulation > of the shoulder with tonification of back shu UB 18, 20. > > The herpes breakout ocurred within 10 days of treatment, on a > vacation at high elevation 14,000 ft, after an irregular midcycle > bleed that began with spotting, normal flow and continued spotting > for almost 10 days. (pregnancy/miscarriage has not been ruled out - > but would have been very early on) > > Any comments or experiences would be appreciated. > > Kayte > > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being > delivered. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 I agree with Z' ev. - Matt Bauer - Chinese Medicine Tuesday, July 27, 2004 5:56 PM Re: Dormant HPV and acupuncture I don't think it would be possible to isolate acupuncture as a cause of reemergence of genital herpes in such a situation,, especially with the factors you describe below. In my opinion, any relationship between the two is strictly circumstantial. On Jul 27, 2004, at 11:22 AM, acupuncture4health wrote: > Has anyone heard of cases where acupuncture causes a break out of > Genital Herpes that has been dormant for more than 10 years. > > In particular this involves a 40 year old female who was being > treated for rotator cuff tendonitis due to blood & Qi xu with cold > damp obstruction. Treatment consisted of gentle local stimulation > of the shoulder with tonification of back shu UB 18, 20. > > The herpes breakout ocurred within 10 days of treatment, on a > vacation at high elevation 14,000 ft, after an irregular midcycle > bleed that began with spotting, normal flow and continued spotting > for almost 10 days. (pregnancy/miscarriage has not been ruled out - > but would have been very early on) > > Any comments or experiences would be appreciated. > > Kayte > > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being > delivered. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 I don't have anywhere near the experience of Matt or Zev, but I can say with absolute certaintly that often times I have seen a herpes break out after starting acupuncture. 99% of the time I have not failed to tonify with a point like St. 36, so I really don't think its a matter of weakening the Wei Qi causing the outbreak. For me it has usually happened when I've treated the Shaoyang, but I've heard others say that it can happen with back points...although what I've heard of is low back points (there's where the virus resides when lying dormant). I absolutely do not think this is a bad thing for the client. I think it is pulling the dormant pathogen out and weakening it. My experience has been that people more often than not have outbreaks when I treat their Shaoyang...and then later they have fewer outbreaks and other lingering pathogen-like symptoms improve. I know its a contraversial topic, but I've seen it an awful lot. Perhaps there are enought subtle difference in technique to explain the varying experiences of practitioners. Laura Chinese Medicine , " Matt Bauer " <acu.guy@g...> wrote: > I agree with Z' ev. - Matt Bauer > - > > Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, July 27, 2004 5:56 PM > Re: Dormant HPV and acupuncture > > > I don't think it would be possible to isolate acupuncture as a cause of > reemergence of genital herpes in such a situation,, especially with the > factors you describe below. In my opinion, any relationship between > the two is strictly circumstantial. > > > On Jul 27, 2004, at 11:22 AM, acupuncture4health wrote: > > > Has anyone heard of cases where acupuncture causes a break out of > > Genital Herpes that has been dormant for more than 10 years. > > > > In particular this involves a 40 year old female who was being > > treated for rotator cuff tendonitis due to blood & Qi xu with cold > > damp obstruction. Treatment consisted of gentle local stimulation > > of the shoulder with tonification of back shu UB 18, 20. > > > > The herpes breakout ocurred within 10 days of treatment, on a > > vacation at high elevation 14,000 ft, after an irregular midcycle > > bleed that began with spotting, normal flow and continued spotting > > for almost 10 days. (pregnancy/miscarriage has not been ruled out - > > but would have been very early on) > > > > Any comments or experiences would be appreciated. > > > > Kayte > > > > > > > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link page, > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > > > > and > > adjust accordingly. > > > > If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being > > delivered. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 Hi all I am now going to place myself in the line of fire and be really unpopular: As I understand it a manifestation of herpes means that the virus comes out to replicate itself and the little blisters that arise a highly infectious at that moment when they are liquid. In my experience, the event is always preceeded by a weakening of the immune system which I assume is what allows the (opportunistic?) virus t come out from is hidding place in the nerve. I have in the past been responsible for outbreaks of herpes on some of my patients when I have misdiagnosed and treated wrongly. I, along with apparently half of the meditteranean population has the virus lurking in our bodies. In my ealier acupuncture days, I was wrongly treated by other (and myself) for many years I was often plaged by recurrences of outbreaks as a result of this. Lastly, and controversially As far as acupuncture is concerned IF a person is Deficient in the LIV they will not be def in the SP and vise versa. I know this flies contrary to what the books say but that is my experience and one of the obvious patterns that arise out of the 5 element controlling cycles. I can envisage a posibility from an acupuncture perspective where both organs / meridians would be deficient. But it seems to me that the person would be extremely weak for a very long time way beyond what we are routely likely to experience in the clinic. And yet the books and lore clearly state that one may support both. I wonder wether this is more to do with herbs. IMO The difficulty arise with the choosing points from variour meridians to deal with patterns. Tthese days I am pretty clear That patterns of disharmony are the result of a 'root' meridian(s) in distress making waves across the controlling and generating cycle. So If my Kidney energy is very weak and has been for a while I will probably have some symptoms of Liver BLood Xu I may also be very critical (LU) and appear emotionally cut off (P / Heart). This apart from symptoms to do with the KID. However, were I to include points from these other meridians (branches) I would soon start to get side effects. were I to go and do Back shu points of these other organs, because of their power, I would disrupt the system even more. salvador Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 The main reason I doubt the acupuncture treatment had to due with the outbreak of herpes was the length of time between the treatment and the outbreak - around 10 days. While nothing is impossible, the vast majority of acupuncture treatment related reactions will happen within 12 - 24 or 48 hours. Anything after that is really pushing the limits of probability. - Matt - heylaurag Chinese Medicine Tuesday, July 27, 2004 9:59 PM Re: Dormant HPV and acupuncture I don't have anywhere near the experience of Matt or Zev, but I can say with absolute certaintly that often times I have seen a herpes break out after starting acupuncture. 99% of the time I have not failed to tonify with a point like St. 36, so I really don't think its a matter of weakening the Wei Qi causing the outbreak. For me it has usually happened when I've treated the Shaoyang, but I've heard others say that it can happen with back points...although what I've heard of is low back points (there's where the virus resides when lying dormant). I absolutely do not think this is a bad thing for the client. I think it is pulling the dormant pathogen out and weakening it. My experience has been that people more often than not have outbreaks when I treat their Shaoyang...and then later they have fewer outbreaks and other lingering pathogen-like symptoms improve. I know its a contraversial topic, but I've seen it an awful lot. Perhaps there are enought subtle difference in technique to explain the varying experiences of practitioners. Laura Chinese Medicine , " Matt Bauer " <acu.guy@g...> wrote: > I agree with Z' ev. - Matt Bauer > - > > Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, July 27, 2004 5:56 PM > Re: Dormant HPV and acupuncture > > > I don't think it would be possible to isolate acupuncture as a cause of > reemergence of genital herpes in such a situation,, especially with the > factors you describe below. In my opinion, any relationship between > the two is strictly circumstantial. > > > On Jul 27, 2004, at 11:22 AM, acupuncture4health wrote: > > > Has anyone heard of cases where acupuncture causes a break out of > > Genital Herpes that has been dormant for more than 10 years. > > > > In particular this involves a 40 year old female who was being > > treated for rotator cuff tendonitis due to blood & Qi xu with cold > > damp obstruction. Treatment consisted of gentle local stimulation > > of the shoulder with tonification of back shu UB 18, 20. > > > > The herpes breakout ocurred within 10 days of treatment, on a > > vacation at high elevation 14,000 ft, after an irregular midcycle > > bleed that began with spotting, normal flow and continued spotting > > for almost 10 days. (pregnancy/miscarriage has not been ruled out - > > but would have been very early on) > > > > Any comments or experiences would be appreciated. > > > > Kayte Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 On Jul 28, 2004, at 12:40 AM, salvador_march wrote: > Hi all I am now going to place myself in the line of fire and be > really unpopular: > > As I understand it a manifestation of herpes means that the virus > comes out to replicate itself and the little blisters that arise a > highly infectious at that moment when they are liquid. > > In my experience, the event is always preceeded by a weakening of the > immune system which I assume is what allows the (opportunistic?) virus > t come out from is hidding place in the nerve. While from a biomedical view this would be a fairly complex topic, I think we could all agree that factors that weaken the correct qi such as stress, increased sexual activity, travel, and over treatment could trigger reactions. > > I have in the past been responsible for outbreaks of herpes on some of > my patients when I have misdiagnosed and treated wrongly. > While it is certainly possible that over-stimulation of patients with acupuncture can stimulate herpes attacks, Kayte's case has too many other factors to single out the treatment as the cause. I, for one, would need a lot more information before determining that the acupuncture caused the herpes attack (or spotting, for that matter). > I, along with apparently half of the meditteranean population has the > virus lurking in our bodies. In my ealier acupuncture days, I was > wrongly treated by other (and myself) for many years I was often > plaged by recurrences of outbreaks as a result of this. Some examples, please? This would be an interesting discussion indeed. > > Lastly, and controversially As far as acupuncture is concerned IF > a person is Deficient in the LIV they will not be def in the SP and > vise versa. I know this flies contrary to what the books say but that > is my experience and one of the obvious patterns that arise out of the > 5 element controlling cycles. While this is certainly possible, there are other possibilities as well. > > I can envisage a posibility from an acupuncture perspective where both > organs / meridians would be deficient. But it seems to me that the > person would be extremely weak for a very long time way beyond what we > are routely likely to experience in the clinic. > Agreed. > > And yet the books and lore clearly state that one may support both. I > wonder wether this is more to do with herbs. The difficulty arises in how TCM is taught. The acupuncture is taught to be based on the same zang-fu patterns as in herbal medicine, but acupuncture is meant to be more based on the jing-luo. Same body, different maps. However, for acupuncture, looking at the body from a zang-fu perspective without considering the channel data, which may be different, can lead to confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 Matt Bauer wrote: > The main reason I doubt the acupuncture treatment had to due with the outbreak of herpes was the length of time between the treatment and the outbreak - around 10 days. While nothing is impossible, the vast majority of acupuncture treatment related reactions will happen within 12 - 24 or 48 hours. Anything after that is really pushing the limits of probability. - Matt _____ Hi Matt, you make valid points but I have some doubts in this particular case. Of course we don't know the whole of the story. Often we need to know what to ask to make sense of the results of our treatments as patients will ascribe symptoms to all manner of events in their lives. and not even mention them to the acupuncturist. In this instance What we have been provided with is a structural disharmony, I think it was in the shoulder? The diagnosis was Blood xu? if so I would certainly want to know more as to how the diagnsosis came about. based on the little info provided I would have thought ST, LI would have been areas of further research rather than LIV and SP which have more relationship to function and rarely will influence the shoulder. If such a powerful treatment of LIV and SP was appropriate. the immnune system would have been strengthened immesurably so an attack of herpes would be suspect on its own but tied to a shift in Period? doubly suspect. Of course we don't know what the periods were like initially and it is just possible that this early period is the hormonal system rearranging its cycle to a healthier 28 days. There is still the question of, is the attack of herpes an 'healing crisis'? i rather doubt it on my assumption that herpes manifests when the immune system is weakened. and since the herpes comes out to 'replicate itself' it is IMO hardly getting weaker. P.S. as an expert on wrong treatments with more 'dead bodies' behind me than I can count (metaphorically speaking). Many wrong treatments accumulate leading to serious disharmonies that can evolve over a period of time. I just never recognized my mistakes at the time nor for that matter did my patients. A while back a new practitioner asked for help on this site She had been treating this patient for a while without much success. Based on info she provided I suggested she needed to work on the LU (I think she had been treating the SP) before she could try out my suggestions she shared with the group that the patient had been taken into hospital with serious breathing difficulties. This was not an overnight result but rather a development from a number of innapropriate treatments plus a neglect of 'Root'. I am sorry to highlight the above example it is not to make myself clever or discredit the efforts of the acupuncturist. This is a serious business we are in. I am all for making mistakes as long as we learn from them. salvador Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 wrote: > I have in the past been responsible for outbreaks of herpes on some of > my patients when I have misdiagnosed and treated wrongly. > While it is certainly possible that over-stimulation of patients with acupuncture can stimulate herpes attacks, Kayte's case has too many other factors to single out the treatment as the cause. I, for one, would need a lot more information before determining that the acupuncture caused the herpes attack (or spotting, for that matter). > I, along with apparently half of the meditteranean population has the > virus lurking in our bodies. In my ealier acupuncture days, I was > wrongly treated by other (and myself) for many years I was often > plaged by recurrences of outbreaks as a result of this. Some examples, please? This would be an interesting discussion indeed. > ---------- Hi Z'ev I'm not quite sure if you are asking for examples of others treating me or my self treatment. I think my example has its uses so I will elaborate As a result of emotional distress I developed a pain in my low back that radiated down my right thigh (really it had been there since childhood but low key). I went to Jr Wrsley's son in law who diagnosed me as a Wood CF this meant that I was consistently tonified on my LIV and GB for a long time 4 years + after 8 sessions I was getting worse I was taken to JR who confirmed the diagnosis and they continued to tonify my LIV and GB One day I woke up and the room was spinning I had the symptoms of menier's disease, I was so bad all my muscles were seizing up and the pain was getting excruciating beyond beleif. What wasn't obvious was that my memory was getting worse, so was my hearing, my digestion, and after a while whenever I ejaculated I would get herpes, this would also happen if I got into a hot bath or drank any alcohol. I passed my acupuncture exams literally on my knees because I could not sit straight due to the pain. By this time my acupuncturist died of a heart attack he was still young early 50? sad to say I think he was probably killed by long term wrong acupuncture. I moved town and went to another 'Master of 5 element acupuncture' and a favorite disciple of JR's This guy over a period of 2 years practically finished me off. By now Ihad become an extremely angry person ( I have a naturally gentle disposition although I can make crash comments when I am emotionally cut off) I couldn't go in the sun for any lenght of time as it would make me very angry and headachy. Again I had recurrences of meniers, back pain, and by now couldn't touch any alcohol because it would make me very drunk and send me to sleep if I had just a quarter of a glass of wine. I was plagued with neck tension and whenever I dropped my head to my knees it felt like a lead weight. Oh and chocolate much as I loved it it would give me herpes . I went to another 'master of acupuncture' for another six months or so. but it was more of the same. this guy was a bit more creative he would tonify me in the BL and the pericardium and the LUngs and LI as well as the LIV. and generated all manner of interesting side effects. By now I decided that IF i wanted the job done I would do it myself. so for many years I stuck needles everywhere and noted how acupuncture would distort the placement of my tendons, alter my bowels, give me herpes, headaches, excema, tinnitus,fluid blisters on my hands in the summer months,etc., Fortunately for me I am endowed with a good constitution, and my daoist practices and martial art exercises kept me from going down under until I understood how to use acupuncture to heal myself. And then there is what I have generated in others....... salvador Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 Salvador, All I can say is, wow! Why did you stick with these practitioners so long, if you kept getting worse and worse? It makes no sense. It would seem that if your liver was being supplemented, then you would get stronger, not weaker. It seems like four years of treating liver/GB is way too much with only acupuncture w/o herbs. The symptoms you describe indicate a draining of qi, not supplementation, to the point where you became very weakened. I don't see any positive rationalization for what you are describing. I am amazed you continued with the treatments! I take issue with the simplistic 'causative factor' as a basis of diagnosis, because there is no textual support anywhere in the Chinese medical literature for such an approach. I am sure other five phase trained acupuncturists would agree that usually a combination of phases are effected in almost any condition, not just one phase, channel, or zang/viscera. Thank you for sharing your case with us. On Jul 28, 2004, at 4:29 PM, salvador_march wrote: > > Hi Z'ev > > I'm not quite sure if you are asking for examples of others treating > me or my self treatment. > I think my example has its uses so I will elaborate > > As a result of emotional distress I developed a pain in my low back > that radiated down my right thigh (really it had been there since > childhood but low key). > I went to Jr Wrsley's son in law who diagnosed me as a Wood CF this > meant that I was consistently tonified on my LIV and GB for a long > time 4 years + > > after 8 sessions I was getting worse I was taken to JR who confirmed > the diagnosis and they continued to tonify my LIV and GB One day I > woke up and the room was spinning I had the symptoms of menier's > disease, I was so bad all my muscles were seizing up and the pain was > getting excruciating beyond beleif. What wasn't obvious was that my > memory was getting worse, so was my hearing, my digestion, and after > a while whenever I ejaculated I would get herpes, this would also > happen if I got into a hot bath or drank any alcohol. > > I passed my acupuncture exams literally on my knees because I could > not sit straight due to the pain. By this time my acupuncturist died > of a heart attack he was still young early 50? sad to say I think he > was probably killed by long term wrong acupuncture. > > I moved town and went to another 'Master of 5 element acupuncture' and > a favorite disciple of JR's This guy over a period of 2 years > practically finished me off. By now Ihad become an extremely angry > person ( I have a naturally gentle disposition although I can make > crash comments when I am emotionally cut off) I couldn't go in the sun > for any lenght of time as it would make me very angry and headachy. > Again I had recurrences of meniers, back pain, and by now couldn't > touch any alcohol because it would make me very drunk and send me to > sleep if I had just a quarter of a glass of wine. I was plagued with > neck tension and whenever I dropped my head to my knees it felt like a > lead weight. Oh and chocolate much as I loved it it would give me > herpes . I went to another 'master of acupuncture' for another six > months or so. but it was more of the same. this guy was a bit more > creative he would tonify me in the BL and the pericardium and the > LUngs and LI as well as the LIV. and generated all manner of > interesting side effects. > > By now I decided that IF i wanted the job done I would do it myself. > so for many years I stuck needles everywhere and noted how acupuncture > would distort the placement of my tendons, alter my bowels, give me > herpes, headaches, excema, tinnitus,fluid blisters on my hands in the > summer months,etc., > > Fortunately for me I am endowed with a good constitution, and my > daoist practices and martial art exercises kept me from going down > under until I understood how to use acupuncture to heal myself. > > And then there is what I have generated in others....... > > salvador > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 You need to also consider the incubation period of herpes which is from the time of contact to producing symptoms Brian salvador_march <salvador_march wrote: Matt Bauer wrote: > The main reason I doubt the acupuncture treatment had to due with the outbreak of herpes was the length of time between the treatment and the outbreak - around 10 days. While nothing is impossible, the vast majority of acupuncture treatment related reactions will happen within 12 - 24 or 48 hours. Anything after that is really pushing the limits of probability. - Matt _____ Hi Matt, you make valid points but I have some doubts in this particular case. Of course we don't know the whole of the story. Often we need to know what to ask to make sense of the results of our treatments as patients will ascribe symptoms to all manner of events in their lives. and not even mention them to the acupuncturist. In this instance What we have been provided with is a structural disharmony, I think it was in the shoulder? The diagnosis was Blood xu? if so I would certainly want to know more as to how the diagnsosis came about. based on the little info provided I would have thought ST, LI would have been areas of further research rather than LIV and SP which have more relationship to function and rarely will influence the shoulder. If such a powerful treatment of LIV and SP was appropriate. the immnune system would have been strengthened immesurably so an attack of herpes would be suspect on its own but tied to a shift in Period? doubly suspect. Of course we don't know what the periods were like initially and it is just possible that this early period is the hormonal system rearranging its cycle to a healthier 28 days. There is still the question of, is the attack of herpes an 'healing crisis'? i rather doubt it on my assumption that herpes manifests when the immune system is weakened. and since the herpes comes out to 'replicate itself' it is IMO hardly getting weaker. P.S. as an expert on wrong treatments with more 'dead bodies' behind me than I can count (metaphorically speaking). Many wrong treatments accumulate leading to serious disharmonies that can evolve over a period of time. I just never recognized my mistakes at the time nor for that matter did my patients. A while back a new practitioner asked for help on this site She had been treating this patient for a while without much success. Based on info she provided I suggested she needed to work on the LU (I think she had been treating the SP) before she could try out my suggestions she shared with the group that the patient had been taken into hospital with serious breathing difficulties. This was not an overnight result but rather a development from a number of innapropriate treatments plus a neglect of 'Root'. I am sorry to highlight the above example it is not to make myself clever or discredit the efforts of the acupuncturist. This is a serious business we are in. I am all for making mistakes as long as we learn from them. salvador Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 Z'ev wrote: Salvador, All I can say is, wow! Why did you stick with these practitioners so long, if you kept getting worse and worse? It makes no sense. It would seem that if your liver was being supplemented, then you would get stronger, not weaker. It seems like four years of treating liver/GB is way too much with only acupuncture w/o herbs. The symptoms you describe indicate a draining of qi, not supplementation, to the point where you became very weakened. I don't see any positive rationalization for what you are describing. I am amazed you continued with the treatments! I take issue with the simplistic 'causative factor' as a basis of diagnosis, because there is no textual support anywhere in the Chinese medical literature for such an approach. I am sure other five phase trained acupuncturists would agree that usually a combination of phases are effected in almost any condition, not just one phase, channel, or zang/viscera. Thank you for sharing your case with us. - HI Z'ev, I stuck with it because initially I'bought' into the '5 element mental conditioning of we have the right answer and T.C.M. does not. Also and this is very important, as a patient It never occured to me that the acupuncture treatments were responsible for my worsening condition. To tonify an organ that does not need it will will create problems wether we do it with acupuncture or herbs.many of the symptoms I described of having had my LIV and GB ton. for a long time gave rise to pattern of LIV def. but it also gave rise to patterns of LIV-Heat rising as well as structural problems along the GB./ LIV I don't wish to knock 5 element per se that would be like throwing the baby out with the tap water. The concept of causative factor is a valid one. But JR was only half way there. and there are usually problems when we rely on our subjective diagnosis. for example my 'constitutional factor' is composed of a tendency to Def KID and Excess ST if we look at this from the 5 Element cycle we note that LIV as the child of KID will exibit distress if the mother is weak also an excess ST can affect the GB by unsulting back through the K'O Cycle. It is possible for someone trained in looking for diagnostic clues through face colour, sound of voice, prevalent emotions, and patient smell, to then confuse the clues. 5 element fails through its failure to take account of symptoms, through its neglect of sedating where appropriate. and its asumption that Healing invariably comes through tonification of both meridians in a supposidly distressed/ deficient Element. Of course there are highly excellent practitioners out there who do great work. but these people have invariably moved beyond what is commonly taught in schools. In my opinion T.C.M is only marginally better It has most of the strenghts that 5 element lacks but it lacks the central pull it all together that the 5 element system as commonly taught is half way to adquiring. What my years of 'suffering' did was to egg me on to find a way of healing myself, this was a powerful incentive. Neither 5 element nor TCM (although TCM was a lot closer) explained my situation. I needed a new theoretical framework to make sense. The result has been a forging of a new synthesis, by pulling together strands from 5 Element, TCM, Daoism theory and energy manipulation, Chinese astrology and Western Science. to give an objecive appraisal and a new theoretical framework that explains a human being in terms of acupuncture. salvador Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 Many thanks for the input - It seems my patient is not the only one to have experienced these results. Albeit I tend to lean towards Zev and Matts interpretations. Just to clarify my diagnosis - it was Lv Xue Xu, Sp Qi Xu (a dual Lv Sp deficiency) - with cold damp accumulation in the LI and SJ. My preferred needling is Japanese style hence the utilization of the back Shu points to tonify, after the shoulder had been treated both locally and distally. The variation in cycle is a total anomaly in 20+ years and the Herpes had been dormant for more than 10 years. Since the outbreak of herpes occured after the onset of spotting and then mid cycle bleeding, my interpretation was that it was this that triggered the dormant herpes, either due to altitude or possible early term miscarriage. One more question - is this type of reaction typical of other STD's, active or dormant? And would a Latent pathogen diagnosis by more accurate? Kayte --- In Chinese Medicine , " salvador_march " <salvador_march@h...> wrote: > > > Z'ev wrote: > > Salvador, > All I can say is, wow! Why did you stick with these practitioners so > long, if you kept getting worse and worse? It makes no sense. It > would seem that if your liver was being supplemented, then you would > get stronger, not weaker. It seems like four years of treating > liver/GB is way too much with only acupuncture w/o herbs. > The symptoms you describe indicate a draining of qi, not > supplementation, to the point where you became very weakened. I don't > see any positive rationalization for what you are describing. I am > amazed you continued with the treatments! > I take issue with the simplistic 'causative factor' as a basis of > diagnosis, because there is no textual support anywhere in the Chinese > medical literature for such an approach. I am sure other five phase > trained acupuncturists would agree that usually a combination of phases > are effected in almost any condition, not just one phase, channel, or > zang/viscera. > > Thank you for sharing your case with us. > > > - > > HI Z'ev, > > I stuck with it because initially I'bought' into the '5 element mental > conditioning of we have the right answer and T.C.M. does not. Also and > this is very important, as a patient It never occured to me that the > acupuncture treatments were responsible for my worsening condition. > > To tonify an organ that does not need it will will create problems > wether we do it with acupuncture or herbs.many of the symptoms I > described of having had my LIV and GB ton. for a long time gave rise > to pattern of LIV def. but it also gave rise to patterns of LIV- Heat > rising as well as structural problems along the GB./ LIV > > > I don't wish to knock 5 element per se that would be like throwing the > baby out with the tap water. The concept of causative factor is a > valid one. But JR was only half way there. and there are usually > problems when we rely on our subjective diagnosis. > > > for example my 'constitutional factor' is composed of a tendency to > Def KID and Excess ST if we look at this from the 5 Element cycle we > note that LIV as the child of KID will exibit distress if the mother > is weak also an excess ST can affect the GB by unsulting back through > the K'O Cycle. > > It is possible for someone trained in looking for diagnostic clues > through face colour, sound of voice, prevalent emotions, and patient > smell, to then confuse the clues. 5 element fails through its failure > to take account of symptoms, through its neglect of sedating where > appropriate. and its asumption that Healing invariably comes through > tonification of both meridians in a supposidly distressed/ deficient > Element. > > Of course there are highly excellent practitioners out there who do > great work. but these people have invariably moved beyond what is > commonly taught in schools. > > In my opinion T.C.M is only marginally better It has most of the > strenghts that 5 element lacks but it lacks the central pull it all > together that the 5 element system as commonly taught is half way to > adquiring. > > > What my years of 'suffering' did was to egg me on to find a way of > healing myself, this was a powerful incentive. Neither 5 element nor > TCM (although TCM was a lot closer) explained my situation. I needed a > new theoretical framework to make sense. The result has been a > forging of a new synthesis, by pulling together strands from 5 > Element, TCM, Daoism theory and energy manipulation, Chinese astrology > and Western Science. to give an objecive appraisal and a new > theoretical framework that explains a human being in terms of acupuncture. > > salvador Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2004 Report Share Posted July 30, 2004 Salvador, On Jul 29, 2004, at 1:24 AM, salvador_march wrote: > > > > HI Z'ev, > > I stuck with it because initially I'bought' into the '5 element mental > conditioning of we have the right answer and T.C.M. does not. Also and > this is very important, as a patient It never occured to me that the > acupuncture treatments were responsible for my worsening condition. It isn't five phase theory that produces bad acupuncture. I know of many elegant practitioners who use exclusively five phase theory, and bad TCM acupuncturists. The ability of acupuncturists is determined by quality of training, and continuing study and practice practice practice. Unfortunately, our profession is still peppered with dogmas that sometimes can lead to unpleasant results if practitioners and patients refuse to look at reality (i.e., the patient keeps getting worse, despite one's diagnosis and ideas). As Zhong Shan said in 1933, " If the course of disease is baffling without sign of improvement, you must with trembling caution wholeheartedly review your diagnosis and treatment " . > > To tonify an organ that does not need it will will create problems > wether we do it with acupuncture or herbs.many of the symptoms I > described of having had my LIV and GB ton. for a long time gave rise > to pattern of LIV def. but it also gave rise to patterns of LIV-Heat > rising as well as structural problems along the GB./ LIV Unnecessary supplementation will lead to drainage; at extremes, repletion leads to emptiness, yang to yin, yin to yang. > > > I don't wish to knock 5 element per se that would be like throwing the > baby out with the tap water. The concept of causative factor is a > valid one. But JR was only half way there. and there are usually > problems when we rely on our subjective diagnosis. I think accurate diagnosis leads to accurate treatment. If the treatment fails, this means either faulty diagnosis or poor technique. Also, to continue treatment when the patient is getting worse without changing course is simple rigidity and dogma. > > > for example my 'constitutional factor' is composed of a tendency to > Def KID and Excess ST if we look at this from the 5 Element cycle we > note that LIV as the child of KID will exibit distress if the mother > is weak also an excess ST can affect the GB by unsulting back through > the K'O Cycle. This is more sophisticated, and probably closer to the mark, than just saying 'treat wood. " > > It is possible for someone trained in looking for diagnostic clues > through face colour, sound of voice, prevalent emotions, and patient > smell, to then confuse the clues. 5 element fails through its failure > to take account of symptoms, through its neglect of sedating where > appropriate. and its asumption that Healing invariably comes through > tonification of both meridians in a supposidly distressed/ deficient > Element. Symptoms confirm color, odor, sound, emotions, and other five phase correspondences. One should leave out nothing in trying to gain a comprehensive diagnosis. There is also still a tremendous amount of misunderstanding about what supplementation and drainage accomplish. In acupuncture, this means either to bring more qi and blood to a particular channel, or to drain replete qi and blood so it will go somewhere else in the channel system. And, of course, to drain evil qi and supplement correct qi. This is different than in herbal medicine, where to supplement means to boost qi, blood, fluids, specific viscera or bowels, or to drain heat, dampness, cold or evil qi. > > Of course there are highly excellent practitioners out there who do > great work. but these people have invariably moved beyond what is > commonly taught in schools. Very true. > > In my opinion T.C.M is only marginally better It has most of the > strenghts that 5 element lacks but it lacks the central pull it all > together that the 5 element system as commonly taught is half way to > adquiring. As some of us have mentioned before, there is no need for an artificial dichotomy between five phase and 'TCM'. Lonny Jarrett's book does a good job of reconciling the two. > > > What my years of 'suffering' did was to egg me on to find a way of > healing myself, this was a powerful incentive. Neither 5 element nor > TCM (although TCM was a lot closer) explained my situation. I needed a > new theoretical framework to make sense. The result has been a > forging of a new synthesis, by pulling together strands from 5 > Element, TCM, Daoism theory and energy manipulation, Chinese astrology > and Western Science. to give an objecive appraisal and a new > theoretical framework that explains a human being in terms of > acupuncture. I am sorry you had to suffer so much, but it looks like the outcome was good in learning experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2004 Report Share Posted July 30, 2004 (Tried to post this earlier but there was a server error. Apologies if this is a duplicate) I feel compelled to offer another perspective on this. I agree that given the complicated set of crcumstances in this case it's difficult to assign the cause of the outbreak to acupuncture, but given it's the first outreak in 10 years perhaps it shouldn't be discarded so quickly. I think it's interesting to look at this from a divergent meridian standpoint. Jeffrey Yuen talks about how the divergent meridians hold pathogens at bay in latency and store them in the large joints of the body. They look like a bi syndrome - like cold damp in the shoulder. The pathogens can also overflow into the curious organs - like getting stored in the spinal cord. The body doesn't have enough wei qi to dispel the pathogen directly and keeps it at bay until its immune system is strong enough to dispel it directly. Yuan qi is tapped to help out the wei qi and this prevents it from entering the zang/fu. He says improper treatment can activate the pathogen and make it enter the zang fu directly. It would seem that an outbreak could be either due to an improper treatment, or the immune system could be given a jump start to try and expel it. He gave an example of a patient of his who has had cancer for over 10 years that has not progressed because he's kept it in a state of latency. He outlines different treatments depending on whether you want to induce latency or dispel that pathogen directly. I guess what stuck out to me in your case was for cold damp the KD-UB and LR-GB divergents are involved and usually have associated pathogens in the shoulder or DU14 areas. --brian > > And would a Latent pathogen diagnosis by more accurate? > > > Kayte Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 coincidence - " acupuncture4health " <acupuncture4health <Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, July 27, 2004 1:22 PM Dormant HPV and acupuncture > Has anyone heard of cases where acupuncture causes a break out of > Genital Herpes that has been dormant for more than 10 years. > > In particular this involves a 40 year old female who was being > treated for rotator cuff tendonitis due to blood & Qi xu with cold > damp obstruction. Treatment consisted of gentle local stimulation > of the shoulder with tonification of back shu UB 18, 20. > > The herpes breakout ocurred within 10 days of treatment, on a > vacation at high elevation 14,000 ft, after an irregular midcycle > bleed that began with spotting, normal flow and continued spotting > for almost 10 days. (pregnancy/miscarriage has not been ruled out - > but would have been very early on) > > Any comments or experiences would be appreciated. > > Kayte > > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > and adjust accordingly. > > If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 I did not have the same case, but one with possibly some similarities. Women 45 y.o. Complaint: hot flashes though Menopause long behind. Other complaints: tired, easily cold, muscles pain in the morning, especial neck, anxiety, stress for many years, Overall diagnosis: Qi Def, Sp Def, Ki Yang Def, Qi Stagnation, Stagnated Heat (maybe on the Blood level) from Qi Stag for many years. Tongue and Pulse were according to this Differentiation. I Bleed-Cup Ge Shu (Ub 17) twice. Both times Hot flashes came much more vigorously. I did not know if I should consider it as the good sign (bringing deep heat closer to the surface?) --- " Dr. Martin " <nfc wrote: coincidence - " acupuncture4health " <acupuncture4health <Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, July 27, 2004 1:22 PM Dormant HPV and acupuncture > Has anyone heard of cases where acupuncture causes a break out of > Genital Herpes that has been dormant for more than 10 years. > > In particular this involves a 40 year old female who was being > treated for rotator cuff tendonitis due to blood & Qi xu with cold > damp obstruction. Treatment consisted of gentle local stimulation > of the shoulder with tonification of back shu UB 18, 20. > > The herpes breakout ocurred within 10 days of treatment, on a > vacation at high elevation 14,000 ft, after an irregular midcycle > bleed that began with spotting, normal flow and continued spotting > for almost 10 days. (pregnancy/miscarriage has not been ruled out - > but would have been very early on) > > Any comments or experiences would be appreciated. > > Kayte > > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > > and adjust accordingly. > > If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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