The study of TCM

July 27, 2004

Hi all,

After spending some 6 months now in Beijing studying, I've painful come to

the conclusion that there is such a big difference with the depth of

learning between students in China and the West. It's nothing to do with the

style of teaching or opportunities (actually westerns get more chances than

the Chinese), but simply the language.

There's absolutely no getting around that all the books are in Chinese and

very very few in English. We are still trying to get hold of decent

translations of the classics, let along further books that go on to explain

the classics in more practical depth. An example is the availability of the

four major classics (Neijing, Shanhanlun, Wenbing and Jinguiwaolue) on VCD,

wonderfully explained in great depth by leading academics of TCM in 24 VCDs

each 50 minutes long. You do the maths. And all in Chinese.

If you really want to learn Chinese medicine, you've got to be able to read

Chinese. Fact. If you don't then you'll end up with some diluted,

westernised form of TCM that loses the essence of the whole. And it's the

essence we're all after, we all were attracted to when we first set out the

idea of learning TCM but most fail to actually grasp, including me. We run

around in the dark, scrambling for some concepts to explain the questions,

but only get half the meaning.

Attilio

July 27, 2004

Hear , hear.

I have some questions about learning to read chinese.

Do you read chinese? Could you before you went to China?

If so how did you learn Chinese, at University, self study?

Do you have recommendations to make on how best to approach a study

of learning to read TCM chinese by way of self study?

Best wishes

Alwin

" Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

> There's absolutely no getting around that all the books are in

Chinese and

> very very few in English. We are still trying to get hold of decent

> translations of the classics, let along further books that go on to

explain

> the classics in more practical depth. An example is the

availability of the

> four major classics (Neijing, Shanhanlun, Wenbing and Jinguiwaolue)

on VCD,

> wonderfully explained in great depth by leading academics of TCM in

24 VCDs

> each 50 minutes long. You do the maths. And all in Chinese.

>

> If you really want to learn Chinese medicine, you've got to be able

to read

> Chinese. Fact. If you don't then you'll end up with some diluted,

> westernised form of TCM that loses the essence of the whole. And

it's the

> essence we're all after, we all were attracted to when we first set

out the

> idea of learning TCM but most fail to actually grasp, including me.

We run

> around in the dark, scrambling for some concepts to explain the

questions,

> but only get half the meaning.

>

> Attilio

July 27, 2004

wow, here we go again!

Ken Rose, where are you?

It seems pretty clear in the USA at least that the CM colleges in general are

moving in

the direction of biomedical integration and not in the direction of language

acquisition and classical study. At best you may see some language courses as

electives but I think this is not common. There may be some schools that adopt

Chinese language as a prereq, but at present IIRC only Dan Bensky & Paul

Karstens'

school (SIOM) makes any attempt to integrate language study and translation

skills

inot their program.

Of course one could argue that one should have A & P, microbiology, biochemistry,

etc,

as prereqs and focus on medical Chinese skills in the schools. But that doesn't

seem

to be happening.

There are many reasons for this, but power and money are probably the driving

force

behind this curriculum focus. The students want jobs in an integrated health

care

setting, and those who keep the gates of the health care system want to know how

the CM school grads will successfully assimilate to a WM-dominated environment.

They couldn't care less if we read Chinese, and they sign the paychecks.

And so it goes. Seems to me that if there would be a translation track

available in CM

colleges, one where perhaps the people more interested in CM scholarship than in

maintaining a practice could find themselves, we might be able to at least move

some

pebbles of understanding in the foothills of the mountains of CM. But seeing as

how,

for example, Blue Poppy is getting set to delete many of their translated

classics from

their catalog due to slow sales, one wonders if such an education would prove

financially viable to those who would undertake it.

Anyway, some thoughts.

robert hayden

July 27, 2004

Chinese Medicine , @v... wrote:

> Hear , hear.

>

> I have some questions about learning to read chinese.

>

> Do you read chinese? Could you before you went to China?

> If so how did you learn Chinese, at University, self study?

> Do you have recommendations to make on how best to approach a study

> of learning to read TCM chinese by way of self study?

>

> Best wishes

>

> Alwin

>

Alwin,

here is as good a place to start as any:

http://redwingbooks.com/products/books/ChiMedChiCha1.cfm

rh

July 27, 2004

Attilio, I was wondering if you could shed any light what type of

information is available if one were able to read chinese. Are they

primarily on the classics, or journal articles, or a hodge podge of

both. And does the material get interpreted through pre or post mao

medicine.

It seems to me at this point it would be necessary to learn the

simplified character system because it seems to be the primary one

used and also being taught. Would this limit what one would be able

to read in any way?

--brian

July 28, 2004

Chinese Medicine , " briansbeard "

<brian_s_beard@h...> wrote:

>

> Attilio, I was wondering if you could shed any light what type of

> information is available if one were able to read chinese. Are they

> primarily on the classics, or journal articles, or a hodge podge of

> both. And does the material get interpreted through pre or post mao

> medicine.

>

pretty much anything you can imagine... We get a 1% (my estimate) in

the English langauge...

-Jason

> It seems to me at this point it would be necessary to learn the

> simplified character system because it seems to be the primary one

> used and also being taught. Would this limit what one would be able

> to read in any way?

>

> --brian

July 28, 2004

Hi Brian,

As far as I am aware, the information is on everything and a lot more. Of

course, the classics were just a small example I was giving but there are

also literature on new acupuncture points, point combinations, new systems

of acupuncture, internal medicine theory, etc, etc, etc. For example, there

is a hot book of acupuncture in Beijing at the moment. It's the experience

of a well known doctor specialising in acupuncture. The points he uses are

new and have shown to be very effective. Photocopies of this book run at

highly exaggerated prices and it's not just the students that are buying it,

other respected acupuncturists are aswell and yes, it's all in Chinese.

There's really no hope of seeing it in English.

Alot of the academics escaped Mao teaching styles as they were taught the

old style of TCM before the communist era. Hence there understanding of

medicine is alot like what we perceive it to be, traditional. Therefore,

their books, articles and VCDs are in relation to the old style theories

rather than the younger generations. I noticed this alot on the hospital

wards. The directors of each ward go around with all the doctors and

students and discuss each patient's case. The directors have a massive and

impressive knowledge of TCM and internal medicine, where they are always

more likely to use a often forgotten TCM formula compared to the younger

generation of doctors which often opted for western drugs with a slap-dash

use of basic formulas to clear up the side-effects. That's the future of TCM

in China I'm afraid, for the large part of the majority of doctors anyway.

The young are looking to the west just as we look to the east. That's why

apart from the older generation in China, the further development of Chinese

medicine WILL happen outside China. And it will be in the hands of those

that speak and understand Chinese.

My understanding of Chinese is still extremely limited even though I studied

it for a year are a requirement of my degree course and having spent 6

months in China. It's a hard and slow language to learn unless your just

gifted for it. Yes, I would suggest the simplified form first.

Kind regards

Attilio

briansbeard [brian_s_beard]

27 July 2004 23:18

Chinese Medicine

Re: The study of TCM

Attilio, I was wondering if you could shed any light what type of

information is available if one were able to read chinese. Are they

primarily on the classics, or journal articles, or a hodge podge of

both. And does the material get interpreted through pre or post mao

medicine.

It seems to me at this point it would be necessary to learn the

simplified character system because it seems to be the primary one

used and also being taught. Would this limit what one would be able

to read in any way?

--brian

July 28, 2004

Wed, 28 Jul 2004 03:11:34, Attilio wrote:

>… For example, there is a hot book of acupuncture in Beijing at the

moment. …. There's really no hope of seeing it in English.

What Attilio describes, I suspect, resembles the patterns of fashion and

popularity that take place in most (modern, literate) societies. Like, for

instance, the Atkin's diet literature as focus of the newly medically

condoned diet fad in the USA. Or the writings/lectures of Deepak Chopra a

few years back. If a particular book or pool of ideas is more significant

and enduring (becomes part of tradition, i.e. gets " carried along " ), it

will, given current trends, most likely find its way into English.

We need to be able to distinguish the appropriation of those aspects in CM

that transfer into other socio-cultural contexts, from a lionization of all

things Chinese. We in the West are, on a broad scale, for the first time in

history coming into substantive contact with Chinese culture. Hence an

understandable tendency to plunge into it with a sense of wonder and

discovery. This is an education of sorts - in some Western traditions,

e-ducation (leading out of) meant not just training in basic cultural

skills, but exposure to " foreign " world cultures and their artifacts.

Leading-out from one's family, village/region, nationality via exposure to

other worlds brings about an altered, more realistic awareness of one's own

identity and roots.

A generation steeping itself in another culture in this way is a phenomena

that recurs throughout history. In the 1920's, American artists (painters,

writers, poets) flocked to France. Later in, and even today, American

musicians commonly study at length in Germany. 2000 years ago, aristocratic

Romans acquired a Greek education, either in Greece or in it's colonies in

Southern Italy. During the Renaissance, artists of all sorts from northern

European countries commonly studied in Italy. Earlier, the Flemish lands

were the place to go. In all cases, what these cultural pilgrims brought

back, what eventually bore enduring fruit in their native cultures was not

mirror images of their places of study, but something adapted and in a

sense appropriate to their home worlds.

>>… the further development of Chinese medicine WILL happen outside China.

And it will be in the hands of those that speak and understand Chinese.

The export of Chinese medicine (as by Chinese teachers and practitioners

and as practiced with Chinese patients) is an historical phase. (The

wholesale and literal export of TCM, per se, is an artifact of governmental

foreign and economic policy, subject to the vagaries of political change.)

The medicine (as a tradition of principles and diverse traditions) is a

combination of (a) culturally transcendent principles and models, and (b)

a plethora of more culture-bound attitudes and practices. The former

characteristics (a) are of those that are of essential interest for use in

Western cultures.

I take issue with the conclusion that fluency in Chinese language will be

the deciding factor in this transference process. Those who achieve

expertise in deciphering the classical literature (in its historical

languages) will make significant contributions. But being able to grasp the

quality of thought and expression of Chinese medicine is possible with a

degree of study and exposure well short of fluency in the modern/colloquial

language and culture. Particularly as contemporary Chinese education

thoroughly inculcates a rigidly censored view of much of the actual

traditional heritage.

An understanding of the structure and nature of the Chinese language is

helpful. Getting to know the structure and basic elements (radicals) of the

pictographic writing system is not a major task - though it can be

fascinating. Just conversing (at length and over time) with Chinese

immigrants, with some knowledge of languages, can impart a vivid sense of

the structure of the language - native born Chinese who learn English as a

second language, and relatively later in life, speak English using largely

Chinese syntax and grammar, which reveals much about the basic tenor of the

language.

Diligent study with Chinese teachers who can also think/express fluently in

Western thought (which, however, is not that common), I believe, can impart

an essential and accurate understanding of the material.

Example in a related area: There are a substantial number of Western

masters of Buddhist and Zen meditative traditions who have not needed to

master Sanskrit or Japanese.

Example closer to home: Dr. Leon Hammer's book and teaching tradition forms

a substantive contribution, I would say an enduring landmark, in the

tradition of Chinese pulse diagnosis. (Not that it isn't subject to

controversy and criticism, which is also part of tradition in both

cultures.) His ability to speak and write, skillfully intertwining

biomedical and essential Chinese medical concepts, clearly reflects a

mastery of fundamental aspects of both traditions. Although his knowledge

of the Chinese language is quite limited and not purposively cultivated,

one cannot deny that he has been able to communicate in depth in matters of

Chinese medicine, both with his mentor, Dr. Shen, and with his students.

Another aspect of the topic is whether the identity as " Chinese " medicine

will follow the further development which will take place in other

cultures. But enough for now.

July 28, 2004

Hi Chris et al,

I very much embrace the sentiments of this post.

> The export of Chinese medicine (as by Chinese teachers and practitioners

> and as practiced with Chinese patients) is an historical phase.

This can be applied to many aspects of the Chinese cultural economic

plans. In the 1970s it was decided that it was possible to export all

aspects of Chinese culture (including taiji, qigong, acrobatic

demonstrations such as Shaolin monks, etc.) and a " product " was

packaged that could be attractive to importing countries. These

products may or may not have had (have) relevancy to the original

cultural roots. Just like movies in Hollywood were packaged for

foreign distribution when that market became lucrative - e.g. very

little dialog and lots of action scenes.

> I take issue with the conclusion that fluency in Chinese language >

will be

> the deciding factor in this transference process.

I very much agree. My wife is Chinese, is practicing Chinese

tuina/qigong along with me, and is fluent in the language as well as

the culture and concepts. However, this has not been the deciding

factor in our understanding of Chinese medicine and its roots. The

deciding factor has been our understanding the nature of " qi " and the

role it plays in the conception and maintenance of life. The reading

of text does not seem to be able to take the place of the ability to

actually actualize the experience. My Chinese doctor has very limited

textbook knowledge (he apprenticed), yet is able to deliver a quality

of care that I have not seen in other skilled doctors. I believe this

is because of his 30 years training in Daoism, Buddhism, and Qigong -

the " fundamental experiences " from which all of Chinese medicine is

built upon.

> An understanding of the structure and nature of the Chinese language is

> helpful.

Yes, I very much agree. My own initiation into this process began with

my reading of " Who Can Ride the Dragon " by Huan, which is an excellent

descrption of the cultural underpinnings to Chinese medicine. But

unfortunately, though I have many Chinese friends, very few have any

knowledge or interest in discussing or investigating the language and

culture. They are on a different track in life - e.g. purchasing new

cell phones. :-) It appears the West and East may be trading places. :-)

I believe that Chinese medicine did not fall out of a vacuum, but

evolved from the study of life and the human condition. I think that

it is very difficult to " transmit " this knowledge via texts. It is

like trying to describe a snowflake to someone who has never seen one.

It is for this reason that I would suggest that more study time inside

and outside of school should be devoted towards the understanding and

actual experience of " qi " - via traditional methods such as meditation

,qigong, taiji, fasting, etc. By skipping over this step one is

skipping over the essential nature of Asian medicine and I do not feel

it is possible to every understand it. Once one has this

understanding, I believe that access to texts in their original

" poetic " form would be highly advantageous and interesting.

Regards,

Rich

July 28, 2004

Brian,

For Westerners interested in becoming fluent in Chinese, simplified characters

or traditional characters are equally good way to start. I originally came from

Taiwan many years ago, and we use traditional Chinese characters there.

However, my TCM training has been in simplified Chinese characters, yet it

wasn't a difficult transition once I realize that simplified characters are

actually script form of Chinese writing in publish print or traditional

characters stripped of its beauty and vital organs. To me, it became just the

difference in the number of strokes to write.

As far as limit to what a Licensed Acupuncturist Westerner can read is

concerned, simplified characters are actually better choices to start for two

reasons. Majority of the TCM books in Chinese now is in simplified characters.

The other issues is what your eyes are accustomed to read. If you are trained

in simplified characters, you'll have an easier time storming through the pages

of a good TCM book in Chinese. As you accumulate your experiences in

deciphering simplified Chinese characters, you'll have less trouble translating

between traditional and simplified characters.

Hope this helps.

Ming

briansbeard <brian_s_beard wrote:

It seems to me at this point it would be necessary to learn the

simplified character system because it seems to be the primary one

used and also being taught. Would this limit what one would be able

to read in any way?

--brian

July 28, 2004

Thanks for everyone's thoughtful replies on this topic. I've had an

interest in learning chinese for some time and have been trying to

figure out how best to do go about doing it (and come up with some

time!), but the discussion here certainly provides some motivation

and direction for doing so.......

--brian

July 28, 2004

another option is Wenlin, software which is fairly popular among those learning

CM

Chinese:

http://wenlin.com/

haven't used it myself but i've heard lots of positive comments about it.

rh

Chinese Medicine , " briansbeard "

<brian_s_beard@h...> wrote:

>

> Thanks for everyone's thoughtful replies on this topic. I've had an

> interest in learning chinese for some time and have been trying to

> figure out how best to do go about doing it (and come up with some

> time!), but the discussion here certainly provides some motivation

> and direction for doing so.......

>

> --brian

July 28, 2004

MessageHi Attilio,

I'm actually a bit fearful of agreeing with you on list regarding this point. I

was going to teach and also be a TCM student starting in 1988 at the American

College of TCM in San Francisco. The teaching part would have been Western

science (anatomy, physiology, immunology). I had just left western medical

school in my 3rd year to go on to graduate school. After looking at the

situation at ACTCM and spending time with the faculty, I realized that I'd be

training to become an " incompetent " if I stayed at ACTCM. I did work for a year

in the clinic at ACTCM and became familiar with the clinical faculty. A few of

the ACTCM faculty were far beyond even most of my medical school professors at

the University of Texas, and virtually all of the students at ACTCM really

didn't have a clue about that ... they still don't ... a few do. I really

wanted to work for a living in some capacity of genuine competence, so I chose

to go on in Western science in graduate school, and keep CM as an avocation.

While I love being a life-long student, I find it painful to be incompetent at

my normal duties. In 1988, I realized quite vividly that anyone studying CM

would need to imbibe Chinese culture before even beginning the training in

Chinese medicine itself. Or at least this would make the most sense. The

training of CM in the U.S. essentially produces something like a nurse

practitioner, which is not terrible ... but it's not a doctor.

To those on list who read this, I asked Attilio if he thought I should post it,

and he thought it was a good idea. I don't wish to be insulting to those who

have developed enormous facility as practitioners without a lot of Chinese

language or cultural training. This was a personal decision for me, and I went

on in Western science with CM as an avocation/personal study that pushes the

envelope of my Western science thought. I greatly honor people like Z'ev, Marne

Ergil and others who read and write in Chinese ... some for the purpose of

translation and others for the purpose of studying to enrich their practice. I

know that Dr. Ping Qi Kang here in San Francisco continues to avidly read dozens

of Chinese clinical journals each month. He was the chief of the Hospital #1 in

Shanghai for one and a half decades. He's typical of any such clinician, and he

modifies his formula strategies based on what he reads. Hepatitis C as well as

HIV infections are new diseases to which he has managed to successfully manage

by keeping abreast of his field. I honestly can't imagine myself getting

involved in a professional field of endeavor in which I could not read the basic

literature as well as the historical literature. Currently in Chinese medicine

in America, there are not enough books currently translated into English to

comprise a single bibliography for a thesis or peer reviewed journal paper. Any

such bibliography in this current year would have to include books and articles

written in Chinese. So Attilio's point is well taken and perhaps even obvious

to anyone initiated into professional graduate training.

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

Hi all,

After spending some 6 months now in Beijing studying, I've painful come to the

conclusion that there is such a big difference with the depth of learning

between students in China and the West. It's nothing to do with the style of

teaching or opportunities (actually westerns get more chances than the Chinese),

but simply the language.

There's absolutely no getting around that all the books are in Chinese and very

very few in English. We are still trying to get hold of decent translations of

the classics, let along further books that go on to explain the classics in more

practical depth. An example is the availability of the four major classics

(Neijing, Shanhanlun, Wenbing and Jinguiwaolue) on VCD, wonderfully explained in

great depth by leading academics of TCM in 24 VCDs each 50 minutes long. You do

the maths. And all in Chinese.

If you really want to learn Chinese medicine, you've got to be able to read

Chinese. Fact. If you don't then you'll end up with some diluted, westernised

form of TCM that loses the essence of the whole. And it's the essence we're all

after, we all were attracted to when we first set out the idea of learning TCM

but most fail to actually grasp, including me. We run around in the dark,

scrambling for some concepts to explain the questions, but only get half the

meaning.

Attilio

July 28, 2004

Chris,

I guess I'd disagree with your tone by agreeing with a part of your content and

disagreeing with other parts of your content. (BTW, Atkins diet is " reviled " by

Western science, not condoned.)

Travel to where the knowledge is would be a good idea whether you are an artist,

musician, a Western doctor or a Chinese doctor. You want to be close to both

the tradition of practice as well as the written traditions. In another century

from now, what was Chinese/Japanese or Oriental medicine might well have pushed

the envelope of human endeavor across other scientific or clinical horizons yet

to be named. For now, most of the literature both current and modern as well as

historical and ancient is all in Chinese. People wanting to know how to treat

disease states of modern times will need to read Chinese. Ironically from what

I can see it's the modern Chinese literature that's missing from English more

than the ancient or traditional. Since 1988, I've watch Chinese doctors of

merit imbibe huge boxes per month of current clinic literature. How much of

that has been translated into English? Practically none. When I see an

interesting Medline article on Chinese medicine and look at the bibliography,

there's virtually no English language papers or very few. Do you believe that a

non-Chinese speaker is even in a position to assess or qualify any English

translation of Chinese medicine as pretty good, pretty poor or even relevant?

How would you know a " landmark " English language book on Chinese medicine if you

couldn't read it's bibliography? Or if you could not read the " landmark "

Chinese language books?

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

-

What Attilio describes, I suspect, resembles the patterns of fashion and

popularity that take place in most (modern, literate) societies. Like, for

instance, the Atkin's diet literature as focus of the newly medically condoned

diet fad in the USA. Or the writings/lectures of Deepak Chopra a

few years back. If a particular book or pool of ideas is more significant and

enduring (becomes part of tradition, i.e. gets " carried along " ), it will, given

current trends, most likely find its way into English.

We need to be able to distinguish the appropriation of those aspects in CM

that transfer into other socio-cultural contexts, from a lionization of all

things Chinese. We in the West are, on a broad scale, for the first time in

history coming into substantive contact with Chinese culture. Hence an

understandable tendency to plunge into it with a sense of wonder and discovery.

This is an education of sorts - in some Western traditions, e-ducation (leading

out of) meant not just training in basic cultural skills, but exposure to

" foreign " world cultures and their artifacts. Leading-out from one's family,

village/region, nationality via exposure to other worlds brings about an

altered, more realistic awareness of one's own identity and roots.

A generation steeping itself in another culture in this way is a phenomena

that recurs throughout history. In the 1920's, American artists (painters,

writers, poets) flocked to France. Later in, and even today, American musicians

commonly study at length in Germany. 2000 years ago, aristocratic Romans

acquired a Greek education, either in Greece or in it's colonies in Southern

Italy. During the Renaissance, artists of all sorts from northern

European countries commonly studied in Italy. Earlier, the Flemish lands were

the place to go. In all cases, what these cultural pilgrims brought back, what

eventually bore enduring fruit in their native cultures was not

mirror images of their places of study, but something adapted and in a sense

appropriate to their home worlds.

Another aspect of the topic is whether the identity as " Chinese " medicine will

follow the further development which will take place in other cultures. But

enough for now.

July 29, 2004

Attilio:

I am still considering going to China for 1-2 months to do some additional

studies in the hospitals.

In your opinion and after being in China for the past 6 months do you feel that

you have learned much more than you did in your previous studies and do you

think that I will gain more experience in 1-2 months over there if I go.

I am looking at Nanjing, Hangzhou and Shanghai. I understand they practice more

TCM than some of the other hospitals that use TCM after using Western Medicine.

Brian

Emmanuel Segmen <susegmen wrote: