Shanna-Cutting edge

[Guest guest]

Lon: The " cutting edge " I'm talking about as being what is best is the most

authentic practice now that's pushing the evolution of the medicine forward. I

don't just mean " anything that's new. " Your position that what's been done in

the past is always the best part just isn't tenable as far as I can see.

What's best now would have to be an authentic response that spontaneously

arises in the treatment room in the moment with a given patient. Theory can

*never* be the largest input into an authentic action because authenticity

happens spontaneously and always *prior* to thought.

 

Shanna:Stephen J. Gould coined

 

the term " punctuated equilibrium " to explain great huge changes that

 

took place due to sudden environmental changes which modified the

 

course of evolution forever; i.e. ice ages, meteor impacts, great

 

flooding etc.

 

Lon: Your talking about physical evolution. The evolution of consciousness is

potentially happening *now*-It never takes time.

 

Shanna: Mother Nature has no

 

goals.

 

Lon: Oh really? Well Father nature might have a few. 15 Billion years of

becomming to evolve a form of matter that can now direct its own evolution

through

conscious choice and you think " nature " or what's driving it has a neuteral

position? It doesn't strike me that way. DO you really beleive this?

 

Shanna:I

 

guess I always advocate for the use of both sides of the brain,

 

integration of past, present and future and the middle path in

 

general--especially when it comes to treating the patient. What do

 

you think?

 

Lon: There is a perspective that can only ever be attained by wholly and

completely dropping the past. I'm not saying " through everything in Cm for the

last 4000 out the window " . I'm saying that the only perspective that could ever

cast light on what is of value and what needs to be left behind arises when

the past is dropped entirely. That's true in an individual human life as well.

Freedom has no history. -It's just as true as any principle of

thermodynamics.-Lon

[Guest guest]

Hi Lonny

 

Chinese Medicine ,

Spiritpathpress@a... wrote:

> Lon: The " cutting edge " I'm talking about as being what is best is

the most

> authentic practice now that's pushing the evolution of the

medicine forward. I

> don't just mean " anything that's new. " Your position that what's

been done in

> the past is always the best part just isn't tenable as far as I

can see.

> What's best now would have to be an authentic response that

spontaneously

> arises in the treatment room in the moment with a given patient.

Theory can

> *never* be the largest input into an authentic action because

authenticity

> happens spontaneously and always *prior* to thought.

 

Shanna: I think infants and toddlers can be said to experience near-

authentic action and spontaneity because of lack of conditioning.

But should we all go around throwing fits and soiling ourselves?

Isn't a certain amount of history, knowledge and experience useful

as a base on which to grow?

 

On what do you base your treatment then if not on thought at some

level? Do you choose points according to their indications? This

would involve learning from the past and thought. Is it just the

diagnosis which comes " spontaneously and prior to thought " or does

the whole treatment/diagnosis come in some mysterious flash? How to

know what to keep and what to throw out? Shouldn't these things be

well considered, using the entire knowledge base as a place to

start? I'm not against reform and advancement or even intuition in

the medicine. I'm only suggesting that treating a patient " prior to

thought " could have grave consequences. Why not use our capacity for

thought, for " concious choice " as you say below, in our treatments?

>

> Shanna:Stephen J. Gould coined

>

> the term " punctuated equilibrium " to explain great huge changes

that

>

> took place due to sudden environmental changes which modified the

>

> course of evolution forever; i.e. ice ages, meteor impacts, great

>

> flooding etc.

>

> Lon: Your talking about physical evolution. The evolution of

consciousness is

> potentially happening *now*-It never takes time.

 

Shanna: Everything is happening now, even physical evolution. But

both physical and conscious evolution have a history which got them

here via a combination of steady-state and punctuated evolutionary

events. Even conciousness can experience slow growth (maturation

from 2 year old to adult) mixed with puctuated evolution (near-death

experience, loss of loved one, flash of insight on a sunny day).

 

 

>

> Shanna: Mother Nature has no

>

> goals.

>

> Lon: Oh really? Well Father nature might have a few. 15 Billion

years of

> becomming to evolve a form of matter that can now direct its own

evolution through

> conscious choice and you think " nature " or what's driving it has a

neuteral

> position? It doesn't strike me that way. DO you really beleive

this?

 

Shanna: Yes, I do think that nature holds a neutral position. The

direction of the evolution of our own individual conciousnesses is

done via each person's free will and is for the most part outside

the realm of mother nature, assuming a person was born with normal

intelligence. Who is it that you believe has goals in the evolution

of our conciousnesses? Are you speaking of " God " ? What do you think

drives nature? Is there some intelligent " Oz " behind the curtain

with a plan or motivations? Of course, over many generations, there

seem to be effects of mass evolution of conciousness due to people

at the " cutting edge " as you say redefining what is acceptable and

what is not and generally raising the vibration, or lowering it as

the case may be. The Inquisition didn't do much for the common man's

conciousness though the people running it professed it would.

>

> Shanna:I

>

> guess I always advocate for the use of both sides of the brain,

>

> integration of past, present and future and the middle path in

>

> general--especially when it comes to treating the patient. What do

>

> you think?

>

> Lon: There is a perspective that can only ever be attained by

wholly and

> completely dropping the past. I'm not saying " through everything

in Cm for the

> last 4000 out the window " . I'm saying that the only perspective

that could ever

> cast light on what is of value and what needs to be left behind

arises when

> the past is dropped entirely.

 

Shanna: How to drop the past without losing what is of value with

what has been left behind? Shouldn't we bring the past with us into

the now as we continually reevaluate what we are doing and how the

patient is responding? What do you base treatment on? Is it entirely

a flash of intuition in the moment? I must say I'm intrigued by what

you say but not sure where it leads nor from whence it originates--

past and future talk I know. Thanks for putting up with my ignorance

with respect to your belief system.

 

Thanks, Shanna

 

That's true in an individual human life as well.

> Freedom has no history. -It's just as true as any principle of

> thermodynamics.-Lon

[Guest guest]

Rich <rfinkelstein wrote:

 

Hi again Shanna,

 

I am having problems with my email account which I think I have

fixed. This may account for why my original post did not appear on the

forum board. In regards to your comments:

 

What I have observed is that the abilty (or awareness) to facilitate

the process of " healing " (or as I prefer to view it - " growing " ) can

spring from many sources - and often the route may seem ungainly and

paradoxical but it seems that this is the nature of life. So you and

Lon may have differing perspectives (or maybe not) but they both seem

" true " to me.

 

Regards,

Rich

 

Hi Shanna and Lon,

 

>

> Shanna: How to drop the past without losing what is of value with

> what has been left behind?

 

Rich: I guess there are many paradoxes in life. All of Buddhism and

Daoism (hence Asian medicine) is built on the paradoxes of life. For

me there is never a Past or a Future, only Now. That is only what

there can be. So everything is manifesting at the moment. So what is

Learning? For me, it is the Distance that we can See at this Moment.

Our Awareness of the Universe. How do we increase Awareness? I believe

by making ourselves more Open. How do we make ourselves more Open?

Paradoxally (as I learned from Taiji and Qigong) by learning how to

Close. :-) It is a crazy world indeed! :-)

 

> Shouldn't we bring the past with us into

> the now as we continually reevaluate what we are doing and how the

> patient is responding? What do you base treatment on? Is it entirely

> a flash of intuition in the moment?

 

Actually, I think that is is what happens. A flash of intuition in the

moment. Isn't it weird?

 

 

 

Shanna: It is weird. I still find it hard to believe that you guys

don't use any knowledge (past) on some level with

your flashes of intuition (now). That's what I try to do. I have

certainly had these flashes but not outside the context of what I have

learned and experienced (past). I attended TCM school for four years

and so I can't claim (do you? can you?) true intuition when I have

these ah ha moments. My intuition may lead me in a direction, take me

away from being overly pedantic and analytical, or even wake me up and

out of rigid thought about what I think is " going on " : but my

education continually lurks in the background informing me of

possibilities, of basics. I then reconnect, concurret with these

flashes, to the " past " knowledge helping me to advance, explaining

them within the framework of " the principles " (past) and thereby

gaining experience and depth of knowledge. None of us, I think, can

entirely leave our pasts behind--we would have to experience total

amnesia for this to be the case, forgetting how to read and speak and

walk as well. All of this is a part of our histories and imprinted on

our experience, shaping the now. We can't take it for granted. Do you

propose that a totally untrained person could practice acupuncture

effectively, even in a superior manner? Certainly palpation is a

powerful skill and I believe entire schools could be built on it as a

principle of diagnosis and treatment. Maybe you're changing my mind

after all? Are my analytical skills getting in the way of helping my

patients? Oh my Goddess! A flash of intuition! A light hovering over

my head! I feel myself opening and closing at the same time! The

paradoxes!

 

Thanks for engaging me! :-)

 

Shanna

 

ps: did you post this? feel free to post the response if you so desire.