Guest guest Posted July 26, 2004 Report Share Posted July 26, 2004 In the context of " classical Chinese medicine " , Jeffery Yuen puts forward ideas relating to this in terms of the body's natural (1) response to PFs (pathogenic factors). As I understand it, the idea is that symptoms can often be expression of a natural healing response, as distinct from direct expression by the PF. E.g. a fever may be less pathogenic than an expression of the healing process. (This idea is recognized in Western theory, in for instance the inflammatory response. I'm sure this idea isn't news to most of us, either in Chinese or Western arenas.) A good example he often cites is damp-heat: In each particular case, is the dampness response to a heat excess, or is the heat a response to excess dampness? (or possibly some combination). He stresses that diagnostic care is called for to figure this out, and with treatment go for resolving the root and avoid unnecessarily suppressing the response. (This is somewhat more sophisticated than what I remember from basic/school TCM training, which was treat damp-heat by ridding damp and heat. Scanning back through the CAM and other books from the Foreign Language Press confirms this. ) His view of antibiotics, shared by others also, is that they simply smother heat with dampness, essentially driving the heat into latency and hence further inward, i.e. engendering a deep and chronic condition. The understanding of differentiating PF and response plays a major part in his interpretations of the classics. For example, the SuWen as dealing basically with wind as the root PF (i.e. inappropriate adaptation to change (one can see " wind " as a metaphor for change) in weather, seasons, etc.), with cold as a close 2nd, and, in succeeding stages of development, damp, heat, etc. developing as responses by the channel systems (the ZangFu perspective he considers more explicitly developed only later, in the Song era) as the PF fights its way deeper. (Again, he didn't make this up; the ShangHanLun spells it systematically and at length. Elucidating the SuWen in this way is new to me.) In his SuWen exegesis, the various levels of response -- e.g. throat bi, rebellious Qi, chest Bi, eventually to the low back, and finally up through the back Shu points and into the organs - are then manifestations of various mechanisms of the channel systems to block or divert further, deeper penetration of the wind (pathogenic change). So in this context, " healing crisis " may be when treatment (or nature) is succeeding in driving the PF back through the levels to the surface (Wei level) and then entirely out. This approach then also shows up later in the GongXiaPai (School of Attacking and Purging), which " reduces " etiology to weakness in the Wei level (Lung and Liver), and focuses treatment on drawing to and expelling at that level, which is at times somewhat harsh. So it does appear that Hering's Law and these viewpoints in Chinese tradition embody similar insights. (1) Side-issue: I find myself using " nature " and " natural " , as many of us do. But, as far as I can tell, Chinese thought doesn't have words exactly the same as these. On the one hand, earth (di) is sometimes used in a way that approximates our sense of nature around us, i.e. trees, rivers, animals etc., or the sense of " mother nature " . Weather and climate correspond more to heaven (tian). (Some Native American belief systems use analogous constructs of Great Spirit and Mother Earth.) On the other hand, referring to natural process, the Chinese word may be more " dao " (the way of things (de), colloquially a road or path). This, however, does not necessarily mean " Doaism " . Confucian writers/writings also use the term, as in the Han classics. One might be tempted to interpret use of this term as Daoist. But according to P. Unschuld and others, the overall tenor of the NeiJing reflects more a Confucian approach, the Han medicine mirroring structures - e.g. canals and officials -- and values of the social and political organizing principles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2004 Report Share Posted July 26, 2004 Chris Thanks for the wonderful explanations. Definitely something to think about. Shanna Chinese Medicine , <@w...> wrote: > In the context of " classical Chinese medicine " , Jeffery Yuen puts forward > ideas relating to this in terms of the body's natural (1) response to PFs > (pathogenic factors). As I understand it, the idea is that symptoms can > often be expression of a natural healing response, as distinct from direct > expression by the PF. E.g. a fever may be less pathogenic than an > expression of the healing process. (This idea is recognized in Western > theory, in for instance the inflammatory response. I'm sure this idea isn't > news to most of us, either in Chinese or Western arenas.) > > A good example he often cites is damp-heat: In each particular case, is the > dampness response to a heat excess, or is the heat a response to excess > dampness? (or possibly some combination). He stresses that diagnostic care > is called for to figure this out, and with treatment go for resolving the > root and avoid unnecessarily suppressing the response. (This is somewhat > more sophisticated than what I remember from basic/school TCM training, > which was treat damp-heat by ridding damp and heat. Scanning back through > the CAM and other books from the Foreign Language Press confirms this. ) > His view of antibiotics, shared by others also, is that they simply smother > heat with dampness, essentially driving the heat into latency and hence > further inward, i.e. engendering a deep and chronic condition. > > The understanding of differentiating PF and response plays a major part in > his interpretations of the classics. For example, the SuWen as dealing > basically with wind as the root PF (i.e. inappropriate adaptation to change > (one can see " wind " as a metaphor for change) in weather, seasons, etc.), > with cold as a close 2nd, and, in succeeding stages of development, damp, > heat, etc. developing as responses by the channel systems (the ZangFu > perspective he considers more explicitly developed only later, in the Song > era) as the PF fights its way deeper. (Again, he didn't make this up; the > ShangHanLun spells it systematically and at length. Elucidating the SuWen > in this way is new to me.) In his SuWen exegesis, the various levels of > response -- e.g. throat bi, rebellious Qi, chest Bi, eventually to the low > back, and finally up through the back Shu points and into the organs - are > then manifestations of various mechanisms of the channel systems to block > or divert further, deeper penetration of the wind (pathogenic change). > > So in this context, " healing crisis " may be when treatment (or nature) is > succeeding in driving the PF back through the levels to the surface (Wei > level) and then entirely out. This approach then also shows up later in the > GongXiaPai (School of Attacking and Purging), which " reduces " etiology to > weakness in the Wei level (Lung and Liver), and focuses treatment on > drawing to and expelling at that level, which is at times somewhat harsh. > > So it does appear that Hering's Law and these viewpoints in Chinese > tradition embody similar insights. > > (1) Side-issue: I find myself using " nature " and " natural " , as many of us > do. But, as far as I can tell, Chinese thought doesn't have words exactly > the same as these. On the one hand, earth (di) is sometimes used in a way > that approximates our sense of nature around us, i.e. trees, rivers, > animals etc., or the sense of " mother nature " . Weather and climate > correspond more to heaven (tian). (Some Native American belief systems use > analogous constructs of Great Spirit and Mother Earth.) On the other hand, > referring to natural process, the Chinese word may be more " dao " (the way > of things (de), colloquially a road or path). This, however, does not > necessarily mean " Doaism " . Confucian writers/writings also use the term, as > in the Han classics. One might be tempted to interpret use of this term as > Daoist. But according to P. Unschuld and others, the overall tenor of the > NeiJing reflects more a Confucian approach, the Han medicine mirroring > structures - e.g. canals and officials -- and values of the social and > political organizing principles. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2004 Report Share Posted July 26, 2004 On Jul 26, 2004, at 1:38 AM, wrote: > In the context of " classical Chinese medicine " , Jeffery Yuen puts > forward > ideas relating to this in terms of the body's natural (1) response to > PFs > (pathogenic factors). As I understand it, the idea is that symptoms can > often be expression of a natural healing response, as distinct from > direct > expression by the PF. E.g. a fever may be less pathogenic than an > expression of the healing process. (This idea is recognized in Western > theory, in for instance the inflammatory response. I'm sure this idea > isn't > news to most of us, either in Chinese or Western arenas.) No, a fever, (or fa/re/heat effusion according to the Wiseman dictionary) in the Shang Han Lun is seen as the body's response to cold or wind damage, not a quality of the evil/pathogen itself. > > A good example he often cites is damp-heat: In each particular case, > is the > dampness response to a heat excess, or is the heat a response to excess > dampness? (or possibly some combination). He stresses that diagnostic > care > is called for to figure this out, and with treatment go for resolving > the > root and avoid unnecessarily suppressing the response. (This is > somewhat > more sophisticated than what I remember from basic/school TCM training, > which was treat damp-heat by ridding damp and heat. Scanning back > through > the CAM and other books from the Foreign Language Press confirms this. > ) > His view of antibiotics, shared by others also, is that they simply > smother > heat with dampness, essentially driving the heat into latency and hence > further inward, i.e. engendering a deep and chronic condition. Very interesting stuff, and it draws parallel's with Miki Shima's recent work with homotoxicology, which postulates a six stage development of pathogenic invasion from exterior to interior. Miki has compared this theory to the Shang Han Lun six channel theory, and is using the combination homeopathics clinically for deep, chronic latent pathogens. I myself think that latent pathogens from misguided medical treatment, both allopathic and alternative, is a major problem in modern clinical practice. I cringe every time I see an inappropriate antibiotic or steroidal treatment done on a patient. In the Shang Han Lun, these are called 'transmuted patterns'. > > The understanding of differentiating PF and response plays a major > part in > his interpretations of the classics. For example, the SuWen as dealing > basically with wind as the root PF (i.e. inappropriate adaptation to > change > (one can see " wind " as a metaphor for change) in weather, seasons, > etc.), > with cold as a close 2nd, and, in succeeding stages of development, > damp, > heat, etc. developing as responses by the channel systems (the ZangFu > perspective he considers more explicitly developed only later, in the > Song > era) as the PF fights its way deeper. (Again, he didn't make this up; > the > ShangHanLun spells it systematically and at length. Elucidating the > SuWen > in this way is new to me.) In his SuWen exegesis, the various levels of > response -- e.g. throat bi, rebellious Qi, chest Bi, eventually to the > low > back, and finally up through the back Shu points and into the organs - > are > then manifestations of various mechanisms of the channel systems to > block > or divert further, deeper penetration of the wind (pathogenic change). Clearly, this is not something 'made up'. I call the methods in the Su Wen, Wen Bing, SHL 'immunological maps', i.e. the clear description of the body's immune response to pathogens as they 'transmute' through different stages. The Chinese developed a language for describing how the body responds to external and internal evils via channels, viscera-bowels, and developed methods for how to rid the body of these evils. > > So in this context, " healing crisis " may be when treatment (or nature) > is > succeeding in driving the PF back through the levels to the surface > (Wei > level) and then entirely out. This approach then also shows up later > in the > GongXiaPai (School of Attacking and Purging), which " reduces " etiology > to > weakness in the Wei level (Lung and Liver), and focuses treatment on > drawing to and expelling at that level, which is at times somewhat > harsh. And the gong xia pai was the most controversial of the Jin-Yuan era schools in its harshness. The stronger the methodology, the more possibility of undesirable 'side effects'. > > So it does appear that Hering's Law and these viewpoints in Chinese > tradition embody similar insights. I think we need here to clarify two issues. 1) Yes, Chinese medicine describes what we can consider to be a form of 'healing crisis'. The very first chapter of Jin gui yao lue/Prescriptions from the Golden Cabinet describes how we can determine if skin diseases are improving or getting worse, by how they move from the periphery (limbs) to the trunk or visa versa. However, the Worsley school clearly adapted " Hering's Law of Cure " , a very coherent homeopathic doctrine I must say, as part of it's school of acupuncture. I don't say it isn't true, I just ask that proponents of this school acknowledge their sources, that is all. 2) The idea of using a healing crisis as a cliche to describe all reactions to treatment, even if they are negative ones (iatrogenesis). This is a crutch that is used all too often when treatment is faulty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2004 Report Share Posted July 27, 2004 Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:20:24, Z'ev wrote: >>> In the context of " classical Chinese medicine " , Jeffery Yuen puts > forward ideas relating to this in terms of the body's natural (1) response to PFs (pathogenic factors)… >> No, a fever, (or fa/re/heat effusion according to the Wiseman dictionary) in the Shang Han Lun is seen as the body's response to cold or wind damage, not a quality of the evil/pathogen itself. Introducing the " natural " and " healing " concepts to modify " response " was misrepresentation on my part of Jeffery Yuen's teachings. He does interpret much of SuWen symptomatology as response. Then again, the inflammatory response is also not a quality of the pathogen itself. >>I call the methods in the Su Wen, Wen Bing, SHL 'immunological maps', i.e. the clear description of the body's immune response to pathogens as they 'transmute' through different stages. The Chinese developed a language for describing how the body responds to external and internal evils via channels, viscera-bowels, and developed methods for how to rid the body of these evils. This is one of the aspects in the " classics " that fascinates me, at least as so interpreted: the clear and plausible depiction of the processes of pathology (and physiology). This framework actually helps make sense of the hodge-podge of bio-medical knowledge, whose intricate analytical detail distracts understanding from larger perspectives. Given the different epistemological levels involved on both sides, there is no inherent conflict, rather lending substance to the notion of complementary. Another aspect consists of the different levels of channel systems (as found in classical traditions but largely understated, if not ignored in TCM), each expressing/describing a particular progression of physiology and pathology. Correspondences can be found in modern medical science, but in fragmentary form and spread across various specialties, which are, again, preoccupied with their own ever expanding realms of detail. The idea is becoming more plausible to me that there's something to be gleaned, perhaps extended from the theories that can be interpreted from the classics, that may help the Western viewpoint in organizing its massive body of data along clearer theoretical lines. And this could lead to more rational and effective treatment strategies. (Pardon me for changing the subject somewhat.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 And this is exactly how the idea of so-called 'integration' should be presented. Zhang Xi-chun said that biomedical data should be accessed within the framework of Chinese medical theory. The more sophisticated aspects of Chinese medical theory such as six channel and four aspect pattern differentiation can be used to organize biomedical data into a coherent form. On Jul 27, 2004, at 12:27 PM, wrote: > This is one of the aspects in the " classics " that fascinates me, at > least > as so interpreted: the clear and plausible depiction of the processes > of > pathology (and physiology). This framework actually helps make sense > of the > hodge-podge of bio-medical knowledge, whose intricate analytical detail > distracts understanding from larger perspectives. Given the different > epistemological levels involved on both sides, there is no inherent > conflict, rather lending substance to the notion of complementary. Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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