Guest guest Posted July 25, 2004 Report Share Posted July 25, 2004 Hi all, I recently learnt that all acupuncture students are required to perform at least three autopsies. This is to further advance their point location. Of course, their not looking for the actual point, but rather the body's geography. Understanding the skeletal, muscular, nervous, etc systems is paramount to correct point location. I have been studying point location myself and found that certain body points, or rather landmarks, greatly help finding the point. If I had the chance to examine a corpse and acupuncture it, then I can also further develop my understanding of not only location, but depth and possible adverse effects, i.e. puncturing the Zangfu. However, most if not all acupuncture schools in the West, do not have the facilities to allow students to perform autopsies and practice their acupuncture location and needle insertion. I believe that in China, students can actually buy a corpse for as little as 800 yuan, £55. I would recommend that acupuncture schools and colleges adopt autopsy examinations if at all possible. Kind regards Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2004 Report Share Posted July 26, 2004 At a school I attended, for Anatomy/Physiology there was an optional of human autopsy and dissection. I have dressed game and slaughtered and prepared for consumption a small amount of creatures for a farmer to learn anout the inside of the body, what the glands and organs look like, the networks of connective tissue, etc,etc. and have had private training in minor surgical technique and procedure. However, I don't think this will make anybody a better acupuncturist automatically, at all, or you would be able to say all surgeons make better acupuncturists. And that just isn't so. I think this should remain an elective, not a requirement. Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto wrote: Hi all, I recently learnt that all acupuncture students are required to perform at least three autopsies. This is to further advance their point location. Of course, their not looking for the actual point, but rather the body's geography. Understanding the skeletal, muscular, nervous, etc systems is paramount to correct point location. I have been studying point location myself and found that certain body points, or rather landmarks, greatly help finding the point. If I had the chance to examine a corpse and acupuncture it, then I can also further develop my understanding of not only location, but depth and possible adverse effects, i.e. puncturing the Zangfu. However, most if not all acupuncture schools in the West, do not have the facilities to allow students to perform autopsies and practice their acupuncture location and needle insertion. I believe that in China, students can actually buy a corpse for as little as 800 yuan, £55. I would recommend that acupuncture schools and colleges adopt autopsy examinations if at all possible. Kind regards Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2004 Report Share Posted July 26, 2004 Hi Attilio, I've been teaching human dissection now since 1986 and have fully dissected close to 300 human cadavers. It makes acupuncture a different experience if you have worked on each tissue and understand its resilience. It also gives you confidence that you are not doing bodily harm in most locations ... or it could give you pause, as well, in a few locations. I can't think of too many points away from the thorax where I'd be afraid to needle. If people learned really good surface anatomy as might be taught in tui na, that in itself would certainly help their acupuncture technique. Robert Hayden's discussion of palpating to find " live points " was one of my favorite posts of recent times. Unlike other local colleges, my anatomy/physiology course at Merritt College in Oakland, CA uses human cadavers. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen Hi all, I recently learnt that all acupuncture students are required to perform at least three autopsies. This is to further advance their point location. Of course, their not looking for the actual point, but rather the body's geography. Understanding the skeletal, muscular, nervous, etc systems is paramount to correct point location. I have been studying point location myself and found that certain body points, or rather landmarks, greatly help finding the point. If I had the chance to examine a corpse and acupuncture it, then I can also further develop my understanding of not only location, but depth and possible adverse effects, i.e. puncturing the Zangfu. However, most if not all acupuncture schools in the West, do not have the facilities to allow students to perform autopsies and practice their acupuncture location and needle insertion. I believe that in China, students can actually buy a corpse for as little as 800 yuan, £55. I would recommend that acupuncture schools and colleges adopt autopsy examinations if at all possible. Kind regards Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2004 Report Share Posted July 26, 2004 The school I went to had a joint program with a medical school to spend one day a semester with cadavers that were already dissected. I don't know if it actually helped my point location, but I thought it was very helpful to be able to see where needles went, and be able to play around freely. Gee, if you needle SJ17 up it really does go into the ear canal. Some areas of the body you really have to take to heart the warnings in the texts, and other areas are not as dangerous as you're led to believe. More knowledge, more confidence, less risk. --brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2004 Report Share Posted July 26, 2004 Hi all Although I've never had the honor of dissecting a cadaver, I've always thought it would be important--several even (short, tall, infant, adult, fat, thin). We were supposed to have been able to observe this during the Massage School training I had years ago but the class got cancelled at the local University and we missed our chance. I've always regretted this and thought that getting deeper than the surface would be most informative; especially since getting into acupuncture. While I don't think it is " absolutely essential " I do think it would be most helpful. Our forefathers have left us with standards as to needling depth and cautions about piercing body structures which we are required to take at face value and always remember from a rote learning perspective. The " seeing and touching " of the interior would, for me, a kinesthetic learner, really be helpful and most illuminating I think. Thanks, Shanna Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote: > Hi Attilio, > > I've been teaching human dissection now since 1986 and have fully dissected close to 300 human cadavers. It makes acupuncture a different experience if you have worked on each tissue and understand its resilience. It also gives you confidence that you are not doing bodily harm in most locations ... or it could give you pause, as well, in a few locations. I can't think of too many points away from the thorax where I'd be afraid to needle. If people learned really good surface anatomy as might be taught in tui na, that in itself would certainly help their acupuncture technique. Robert Hayden's discussion of palpating to find " live points " was one of my favorite posts of recent times. Unlike other local colleges, my anatomy/physiology course at Merritt College in Oakland, CA uses human cadavers. > > Respectfully, > Emmanuel Segmen > > > Hi all, > > I recently learnt that all acupuncture students are required to perform at > least three autopsies. This is to further advance their point location. Of > course, their not looking for the actual point, but rather the body's > geography. Understanding the skeletal, muscular, nervous, etc systems is > paramount to correct point location. I have been studying point location > myself and found that certain body points, or rather landmarks, greatly help > finding the point. If I had the chance to examine a corpse and acupuncture > it, then I can also further develop my understanding of not only location, > but depth and possible adverse effects, i.e. puncturing the Zangfu. > > However, most if not all acupuncture schools in the West, do not have the > facilities to allow students to perform autopsies and practice their > acupuncture location and needle insertion. I believe that in China, students > can actually buy a corpse for as little as 800 yuan, £55. I would recommend > that acupuncture schools and colleges adopt autopsy examinations if at all > possible. > > Kind regards > > Attilio > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2004 Report Share Posted July 27, 2004 Hello Emmanuel, I would like to teach second year acupuncture students physiology and pathology of the internal western medical body visualy. Cadavers are in short supply so would like to project a virtual body onto the white board. Could you recommend any good software packages and/or useful University sites that may give me access to such visual information and potential downloads. I hope to present physiology in the mornings and follow through with pathology relevant to the system being taught in the afternoon. Any suggestions from your impressive teaching experience very welcome. regards, jsu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2004 Report Share Posted July 27, 2004 At the school I attend, Oriental Medicine/Acupuncture students are required to spend two trimesters in a Western anatomy/physiology course that includes human prosection. As we are housed with a chiropractic program in our university, we have the benefit of observing and working with the cadavers that the chiro students dissect. It is an incredibly worthwhile experience! It should definitely be required of all TCM students here in the states! Chinese Medicine , " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > Hi all, > > I recently learnt that all acupuncture students are required to perform at > least three autopsies. This is to further advance their point location. Of > course, their not looking for the actual point, but rather the body's > geography. Understanding the skeletal, muscular, nervous, etc systems is > paramount to correct point location. I have been studying point location > myself and found that certain body points, or rather landmarks, greatly help > finding the point. If I had the chance to examine a corpse and acupuncture > it, then I can also further develop my understanding of not only location, > but depth and possible adverse effects, i.e. puncturing the Zangfu. > > However, most if not all acupuncture schools in the West, do not have the > facilities to allow students to perform autopsies and practice their > acupuncture location and needle insertion. I believe that in China, students > can actually buy a corpse for as little as 800 yuan, £55. I would recommend > that acupuncture schools and colleges adopt autopsy examinations if at all > possible. > > Kind regards > > Attilio > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2004 Report Share Posted July 27, 2004 Hi JSU (how shall I address you?), Regarding software and other technologies with regard to teaching anatomy/physiology, I have to share with you that I'm anti-technological ... or more precisely non-technological (as I actually love playing with technologies and writing software games/editors.) I like using cadavers with as much blunt (not sharp) dissection as possible ... no scalpels except for entering the skin. I use dissection scissors mostly backwards to open spaces and only rarely to transect structures. I use fairly cheap microscopes and human histology slides. I do have a camera hook up to a TV set so I can cruise around on a slide at different powers and show my students things. I also use expensive anatomy models, skeletal models and so on. When asked by my administration how I intend to make use of the Internet and computer technology, I laughingly say I promise not to distract my students with such things. Fortunately my college dean has multiple PhDs including engineering and physical oceanography, and he couldn't agree more with my perspective. He's grateful that someone will present the real anatomy/physiology and not cause students to sit in front of computers. While I'm ranting, I should probably also note that Chinese medicine is always a subtext of my teaching. So physiological reasoning from embryology and basic homeostasis on out to endocrinology/immunology/acids-bases-fluids-electrolytes really gets a work out. In my opinion CM pushes the limits of Western scientific thought. I also have to share with you that I fall out of my seat laughing when someone brings up the idea of using Western scientific studies to prove/disprove the fundamental ideas of CM. I view it as a great idea to evaluate CM in order to further the development of Western science. So I can't really help you with software or Internet sites. However, I do honor the notion that you might share my love of integrating ideas from CM and anatomy/embryology/physiology. If you want to talk about that, you'll have my rapt attention. Today I gave a lecture on why CM discusses Kidney in the same breath as sexual function. Embryologically by 5 to 6 weeks of gestation the developing fetus has a more or less single tissue which is about to differentiate into gonad, adrenal cortex and kidney with the gonads descending down mesonephric or paramesonephric ducts ... right through the tissues of the developing kidney ... leaving behind a virtual gonad in the tissues of the adrenal cortex (all steroid hormone producing tissues). Any sort of insightful integration of CM/Western science is " game on " for me. I'm sensing that your brain might have such insights that you might be willing to discuss. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen Hello Emmanuel, I would like to teach second year acupuncture students physiology and pathology of the internal western medical body visualy. Cadavers are in short supply so would like to project a virtual body onto the white board. Could you recommend any good software packages and/or useful University sites that may give me access to such visual information and potential downloads. I hope to present physiology in the mornings and follow through with pathology relevant to the system being taught in the afternoon. Any suggestions from your impressive teaching experience very welcome. regards, jsu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 Emmanuel, Put together the thread that Chris and I have been developing on how the six channel and four aspect 'immunological maps' create a framwork for infectious diseases, and your eloquent and beautiful discussion on embryology and Chinese medicine, and we see just how Chinese medicine and biomedicine can enrich each other without cheapening the framework of the medicine (CM) we know and love. On Jul 27, 2004, at 2:56 PM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote: > However, I do honor the notion that you might share my love of > integrating ideas from CM and anatomy/embryology/physiology. If you > want to talk about that, you'll have my rapt attention. Today I gave > a lecture on why CM discusses Kidney in the same breath as sexual > function. Embryologically by 5 to 6 weeks of gestation the developing > fetus has a more or less single tissue which is about to differentiate > into gonad, adrenal cortex and kidney with the gonads descending down > mesonephric or paramesonephric ducts ... right through the tissues of > the developing kidney ... leaving behind a virtual gonad in the > tissues of the adrenal cortex (all steroid hormone producing tissues). > Any sort of insightful integration of CM/Western science is " game on " > for me. I'm sensing that your brain might have such insights that you > might be willing to discuss. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2004 Report Share Posted July 28, 2004 Emmanuel, Thank you for your rich reply. I agree whole heartedly with you. Yes the evaluation of CM can surely aid the development of WM, your embryological insights embody this in its very essence. My present situation is that of a western trained pharmacologist who has evolved through the learning and practice of CM. The articulation of integrating complemtary threads of these beautiful systems with complementing metaphors is an education I wish to develop and teach. I am re-writing the teaching materials for the physiology and pathology unit of an acupuncture college and look foreward to discovering, assimilating and articulating such threads. The students have completed their first year including a thorough hands on surface anatomy and point location assessment. This coming September I will start teaching the western medical component of the ccourse and enter the traditionally forbidden domain of the internal body. This will be enlivened with a virtual environment as that is all I have available to me. The students will not be in front of computers rather emersed in animated visual projection of recorded film, such as that from your camera, and computer generated models of the functioning of organs and body systems. I look foreward to following and developing these discusions with you as I develop my teaching style and material. Please allow me time to ponder these ideas, I sence you have been working from a similar perspective for some time. Regards, jsu. p.s. you can address me as jsu or jay. My first name's jason second stephen, both on list already. f Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote: > Hi JSU (how shall I address you?), > > Regarding software and other technologies with regard to teaching anatomy/physiology, I have to share with you that I'm anti- technological ... or more precisely non-technological (as I actually love playing with technologies and writing software games/editors.) I like using cadavers with as much blunt (not sharp) dissection as possible ... no scalpels except for entering the skin. I use dissection scissors mostly backwards to open spaces and only rarely to transect structures. I use fairly cheap microscopes and human histology slides. I do have a camera hook up to a TV set so I can cruise around on a slide at different powers and show my students things. I also use expensive anatomy models, skeletal models and so on. When asked by my administration how I intend to make use of the Internet and computer technology, I laughingly say I promise not to distract my students with such things. Fortunately my college dean has multiple PhDs including engineering and physical oceanography, and he couldn't agree more with my perspective. He's grateful that someone will present the real anatomy/physiology and not cause students to sit in front of computers. > > While I'm ranting, I should probably also note that Chinese medicine is always a subtext of my teaching. So physiological reasoning from embryology and basic homeostasis on out to endocrinology/immunology/acids-bases-fluids-electrolytes really gets a work out. In my opinion CM pushes the limits of Western scientific thought. I also have to share with you that I fall out of my seat laughing when someone brings up the idea of using Western scientific studies to prove/disprove the fundamental ideas of CM. I view it as a great idea to evaluate CM in order to further the development of Western science. > > So I can't really help you with software or Internet sites. However, I do honor the notion that you might share my love of integrating ideas from CM and anatomy/embryology/physiology. If you want to talk about that, you'll have my rapt attention. Today I gave a lecture on why CM discusses Kidney in the same breath as sexual function. Embryologically by 5 to 6 weeks of gestation the developing fetus has a more or less single tissue which is about to differentiate into gonad, adrenal cortex and kidney with the gonads descending down mesonephric or paramesonephric ducts ... right through the tissues of the developing kidney ... leaving behind a virtual gonad in the tissues of the adrenal cortex (all steroid hormone producing tissues). Any sort of insightful integration of CM/Western science is " game on " for me. I'm sensing that your brain might have such insights that you might be willing to discuss. > > Respectfully, > Emmanuel Segmen > > > Hello Emmanuel, > > I would like to teach second year acupuncture students physiology and pathology of the internal western medical body visualy. Cadavers are in short supply so would like to project a virtual body onto the white board. Could you recommend any good software packages and/or useful University sites that may give me access to such visual information and potential downloads. > > I hope to present physiology in the mornings and follow through with pathology relevant to the system being taught in the afternoon. > > Any suggestions from your impressive teaching experience very welcome. > > regards, > jsu > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 I too belive it is good to have seen the insides of living things, more knowlegde is always better. As you look in the opened body, can you see the acupuncture points? No, you cannot. The house is dark, the master has fled. Don't kid yourself. We see only where they probably were. (Parathyroid glands, hmm, those little things, they look so like not-a-big-deal.) But to require acupuncture students to be cutting away at dead people seems more of a waste of time and money compared to clinic time, classics study, or several other profession related areas. What's next, total hip replacement? Most of my teachers were surgeons too, but I feel dissection should be an elective. We have to resist the urge and stop burdening prospective students with nonessentials. Time might be better spent visualizing path of qi, its overflow and overlaps, various needle technique and so on. The eagerness to dig around in the spirit shell is a little shocking, but understandable. It is funny how quickly the topic of additional requirements rises. Take Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 The attempt to bring in cadavers is more to make TCM look like WM then anything else, just as the study of anatomy and physiology, and many course which are taught in med school. Med school is 4 years, TCM is 4 years and so on. China would be the first place to do it because China is taken as the fountainhead of TCM, and china is hell bent on exploiting it. And cadavers are aplenty in China. What is required of surface anatomy is easily found in pictographic books on anatomy, or by referring to a refernce level book on acupuncture such the Manual of Acupuncture by Deadman et al. The classic manistay, the Essentials, gives more than enough guidance in decription of points, and warns of majory arteries, and veins and vulnerab;e structure underneath critical points. Great healers through centuries from 200 AD down worked with points without having recourse to cadavers. Acupuncture is an energetic art, not a structural science. And it is a matter of time before some enterprising school of TCM will invoke cadavers. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2004 Report Share Posted July 30, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " homi kaikobad " <aryaone@e...> wrote: > The attempt to bring in cadavers is more to make TCM look like WM then > anything > else, just as the study of anatomy and physiology, and many course which are > taught in med school. Med school is 4 years, TCM is 4 years and so on. > > China would be the first place to do it because China is taken as the > fountainhead of TCM, and china is hell bent on exploiting it. And cadavers > are aplenty in China. > > What is required of surface anatomy is easily found in pictographic books on > anatomy, or by referring to a refernce level book on acupuncture such the > Manual of Acupuncture by Deadman et al. > > The classic manistay, the Essentials, gives more than enough guidance in > decription of points, and warns of majory arteries, and veins and vulnerab;e > structure underneath critical points. > > Great healers through centuries from 200 AD down worked with points > without having recourse to cadavers. This is nonsense. The more information one has the better healer one can be. I hope this trend of not needing books nor cadavers etc is not contagious. It is a great learning tool, period. Maybe if people knew their anatomy a little better there wouldn't be as many pnemothoraxs. For one that dislikes books so much I find it odd to say the deadman is enough, that is IMO silly. - > > Acupuncture is an energetic art, not a structural science. > > And it is a matter of time before some enterprising school of TCM will > invoke cadavers. > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad > MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ > www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. > NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2004 Report Share Posted July 30, 2004 Jason, are there many cases of pneumothorax from acupuncture? Its not common at all in the UK, I don't believe there has been a case for years. The most significant case I heard of was a Doctor causing a pneumothorax and he would have had access to cadavers in his training. There are all sorts of things which it would be good to include in acupuncture training, but it is expensive enough here in the UK without the added cost of cadavers. If there aren't any serious adverse events (which there are not) then why add the extra expense for every student? Susie JAson said: Maybe if people knew their anatomy a little better there wouldn't be as many pnemothoraxs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2004 Report Share Posted July 31, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " susie parkinson " <susie@p...> wrote: > Jason, are there many cases of pneumothorax from acupuncture? Its not > common at all in the UK, I don't believe there has been a case for years. > The most significant case I heard of was a Doctor causing a pneumothorax and > he would have had access to cadavers in his training. > There are all sorts of things which it would be good to include in > acupuncture training, but it is expensive enough here in the UK without the > added cost of cadavers. If there aren't any serious adverse events (which > there are not) then why add the extra expense for every student? > Susie > No that is from my understanding wrong. There were, according to my colleague who is affiliated with the state board, 4 neumothorax's in Colorado alone last year! I was not debating anything about cost, which it is not that much if you hit up the local med schools, but debating that all one needs to know is deadman. And to discount valuable information for price reasons is one thing, but to say that cadavers are not important because we are an energy medicine is just silly (IMO)... I found such labs irreplaceable. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2004 Report Share Posted July 31, 2004 Jason That is interesting, but why didn't they report them? Also who had done the acupuncture? A great deal of acupuncture is performed by physios and GPs. I am also interested to know how they diagnosed a not serious presentation because I presume you mean that there were few signs & symptoms. I was taught that a fine acupuncture needle was highly unlikely to cause a pneumothorax and a couple of doctors have also told me that an acupuncture needle is too fine to cause such a problem. There were two large studies published in 2001/2002 which showed the incidence of serious adverse effects of acupuncture to be very low. What you and the other Jason are talking about appears to be hearsay or dare I say it MSUing! Regards Susie " susie parkinson " wrote: > Jason, are there many cases of pneumothorax from acupuncture? Its not > common at all in the UK, I don't believe there has been a case for years. > The most significant case I heard of was a Doctor causing a pneumothorax and > he would have had access to cadavers in his training. maybe cases don't always get recorded in this country (UK). A GP friend of mine saw a patient with pneumothorax from acupuncture 2 weeks ago and knew of another GP friend who had also seen one recently! they were not serious presentations, but pneumothorax nevertheless. jason davies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2004 Report Share Posted August 1, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " susie parkinson " <susie@p...> wrote: > > Jason > That is interesting, but why didn't they report them? Also who had done the > acupuncture? A great deal of acupuncture is performed by physios and GPs. I don't think that is the point... and I don't know why they didn't report them and actually I don't know who 'they' is?... can you clarify your point please... > I am also interested to know how they diagnosed a not serious presentation > because I presume you mean that there were few signs & symptoms. I was > taught that a fine acupuncture needle was highly unlikely to cause a > pneumothorax and a couple of doctors have also told me that an acupuncture > needle is too fine to cause such a problem. That is not true, acupuncture needles clearly can cause pneumothoraxs - this is well documented... But your first statment is talking about GP's (causing the problems) and then you say it is impossible to cause such a problem (I am unclear)... And why is pneumothorax not serious... it can be very serious... > There were two large studies published in 2001/2002 which showed the > incidence of serious adverse effects of acupuncture to be very low. What you > and the other Jason are talking about appears to be hearsay or dare I say it > MSUing! It is not MSUing, I have quoted my sources in previous posts... Are you saying these (your) studies say that pneumothoraxes do not occur with acupuncture, your statement seems vague… can you give us the citation please.. thanx... - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2004 Report Share Posted August 1, 2004 No, it is not MSU. In the last two months, two incidences of pneumothorax were reported to me by other practitioners. It does happen. I've heard of several cases over the course of 23 years of practice. Let's not pull the wool over our eyes. On Jul 31, 2004, at 11:03 AM, susie parkinson wrote: > Jason > That is interesting, but why didn't they report them? Also who had > done the > acupuncture? A great deal of acupuncture is performed by physios and > GPs. > I am also interested to know how they diagnosed a not serious > presentation > because I presume you mean that there were few signs & symptoms. I was > taught that a fine acupuncture needle was highly unlikely to cause a > pneumothorax and a couple of doctors have also told me that an > acupuncture > needle is too fine to cause such a problem. > There were two large studies published in 2001/2002 which showed the > incidence of serious adverse effects of acupuncture to be very low. > What you > and the other Jason are talking about appears to be hearsay or dare I > say it > MSUing! > Regards > Susie Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2004 Report Share Posted August 1, 2004 Dear Jason Balack You are responding to an email I sent in response to ANOTHER Jason, so of course you don't understand. I don't think I need to clarify my point, you can understand it if you look at the post you responded to, which had the previous posts underneath. And yes, you are MSUing by your own criteria because you did not quote your sources for pneumothorax when you referred to 4 cases in Colorado - where is that documented? Pneumothorax cases in China are not really relevant. There are lots of things that go in China that wouldn't be allowed here in the UK and presumable not in the US, for example non sterile needles. As Shanna said the needles used in China are much thicker than in the West and therefore much more likely to cause a pneumothorax. I'm not saying that it isn't possible to have a pneumothorax from acupuncture - all things are possible, but that it doesn't happen very often. The sources I was referring to for acupuncture safety in the UK are: 1)Acupunct Med. 2001 Dec;19(2):93-102. MacPherson H, Thomas K, Walters S, Fitter M. " A prospective survey of adverse events and treatment reactions following 34,000 consultations with professional acupuncturists. " 2) Adrian White, Simon Hayhoe, Anna Hart, and Edzard Ernst. BMJ, Sep 2001; 323: 485 - 486. " Adverse events following acupuncture: prospective survey of 32 000 consultations with doctors and physiotherapists " I agree wholeheartedly that we have to ensure that acupuncture is as safe as possible, but some practitioners will make mistakes however much training they have had - we are human. The evidence points to the fact that acupuncture is much safer than other forms of conventional medicine. My original point was that it would be nice to have access to cadavers when training, but its not an ideal world and we can't have everything. The very few serious adverse events documented suggest that in the UK at least, we are managing to provide a professional and safe service. Maybe the training we have here is very different from that in the US. Ours is all overseen by the British Acupuncture Accreditation Board who try to ensure a consistent academic and practical standard whilst still allowing for the diverse schools of acupuncture. Regards Susie Parkinson Message: 19 Sun, 01 Aug 2004 02:09:24 -0000 " " < Re: Autopsies and Acupuncture Chinese Medicine , " susie parkinson " <susie@p...> wrote: > > Jason > That is interesting, but why didn't they report them? Also who had done the > acupuncture? A great deal of acupuncture is performed by physios and GPs. I don't think that is the point... and I don't know why they didn't report them and actually I don't know who 'they' is?... can you clarify your point please... > I am also interested to know how they diagnosed a not serious presentation > because I presume you mean that there were few signs & symptoms. I was > taught that a fine acupuncture needle was highly unlikely to cause a > pneumothorax and a couple of doctors have also told me that an acupuncture > needle is too fine to cause such a problem. That is not true, acupuncture needles clearly can cause pneumothoraxs - this is well documented... But your first statment is talking about GP's (causing the problems) and then you say it is impossible to cause such a problem (I am unclear)... And why is pneumothorax not serious... it can be very serious... > There were two large studies published in 2001/2002 which showed the > incidence of serious adverse effects of acupuncture to be very low. What you > and the other Jason are talking about appears to be hearsay or dare I say it > MSUing! It is not MSUing, I have quoted my sources in previous posts... Are you saying these (your) studies say that pneumothoraxes do not occur with acupuncture, your statement seems vague… can you give us the citation please.. thanx... - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2004 Report Share Posted August 1, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " susie parkinson " <susie@p...> wrote: > Dear Jason Balack > You are responding to an email I sent in response to ANOTHER Jason, so of > course you don't understand. I don't think I need to clarify my point, you > can understand it if you look at the post you responded to, which had the > previous posts underneath. I guess that is why is didn't make sense, my mistake, all these posts and 2 jason's makes it hard > > And yes, you are MSUing by your own criteria because you did not quote your > sources for pneumothorax when you referred to 4 cases in Colorado - where is > that documented? No I mentioned who said it, I did not make it up. They might of, but my source was clear. Personal conversations are valid source of information, you just have to note it like I did. I do not know where it is documented, but you could call the Colorado board if you like. > > Pneumothorax cases in China are not really relevant. There are lots of > things that go in China that wouldn't be allowed here in the UK and > presumable not in the US, for example non sterile needles. As Shanna said > the needles used in China are much thicker than in the West and therefore > much more likely to cause a pneumothorax. I'm not saying that it isn't > possible to have a pneumothorax from acupuncture - all things are possible, > but that it doesn't happen very often. Well I think mine and Z'ev's previous posts have addressed all the above. Chinese needles are used in the states and vigorous needling is here, I have definitely seen it. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2004 Report Share Posted August 1, 2004 Hi Susie! Acronyms are confusing. Several posts have contained the term " MSUing " . What does this mean? Regards, Pete At 01:56 PM 8/1/04 +0100, you wrote:<snip> >And yes, you are MSUing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 A long line of spectacular healers from Tchi Po down did not have the need to work with cadavers. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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