something sinister or something wellcome????

[Guest guest]

hello all,

the wellcome foundation (pharma company) are hosting the

IASTAM asian medicine tradion and modernity conference on 2/12/04 in

london. Topics are CM and Ayurvedic med. Big names in CM are there -

Hugh Macpherson, Vivienne Lo, Volker Scheid, etc.

 

Is this getting into bed with the enemy?

 

Are we being seduced in order to get screwed?

 

 

Lets see, here in Uk, we may lose our right to buy high dose mins

and vits and low dose all sorts of currently freely available

supplements. We've lost kava kava (cos of 15 dubious adverse reactions

throught the whole of Europe), we nearly lost St. Johns wort on

account of a similar number of dubious adverse consequences

worldwide!! We've lost chinese herbs too but I'm a western-style

herbalist so I'm not familiar with what we've lost but I do get the

written formal notifications.

 

We may lose many, many, many herbs (Chinese ones too) because of

soon-to-be-implemented restrictions involving licensing and production

facilities. The suppliers here are ceasing to supply minority herbs in

preparation for the requirements.

 

Gossip is the plan is for herbalists to write presciptions for

patients to go off to Boots the chemist to get them filled and Boots

will buy off cheapest suppliers - which will be Big Pharma bulk buying

cheap and nasty herb ingredients bulk processing into cheap and nasty

herbal products which won't work very well. Patients won't get better

and will go back to doctors for expensive but profitable drugs. Net

result? Alternative medicine fails and Big Pharma wins.

 

'Course I may be a paranoid conspiracy theorist.

 

Just becos I'm paranoid doesn't mean nobody is watching me.

 

All I know is I'm not going.

 

Boycott anyone?

 

regardez

 

 

 

 

Stephen

 

 

--

Stephen MacAllan

Lic.Ac., B.Ac., M.Ac., M.H.,

Cert.B.E.R.M., M.H.

M.B.Ac.C.,M.A.M.H.

Acupuncturist, Herbalist,

Kosmed practitioner

Vega-tester

www.stephenmacallan.co.uk

www.stephenandphilipnaturally.co.uk

powered by amiga 060/mediator

[Guest guest]

That sounds about right. Nothing short of a world wide strike will derail the

Market Forces coordinated plans to further milk the lower classes for everything

they've got, and then keep milking. Not paranoid, informed.

 

stephen macallan <stephenmacallan wrote:hello all,

the wellcome foundation (pharma company) are hosting the

IASTAM asian medicine tradion and modernity conference on 2/12/04 in

london. Topics are CM and Ayurvedic med. Big names in CM are there -

Hugh Macpherson, Vivienne Lo, Volker Scheid, etc.

 

Is this getting into bed with the enemy?

 

Are we being seduced in order to get screwed?

 

 

Lets see, here in Uk, we may lose our right to buy high dose mins

and vits and low dose all sorts of currently freely available

supplements. We've lost kava kava (cos of 15 dubious adverse reactions

throught the whole of Europe), we nearly lost St. Johns wort on

account of a similar number of dubious adverse consequences

worldwide!! We've lost chinese herbs too but I'm a western-style

herbalist so I'm not familiar with what we've lost but I do get the

written formal notifications.

 

We may lose many, many, many herbs (Chinese ones too) because of

soon-to-be-implemented restrictions involving licensing and production

facilities. The suppliers here are ceasing to supply minority herbs in

preparation for the requirements.

 

Gossip is the plan is for herbalists to write presciptions for

patients to go off to Boots the chemist to get them filled and Boots

will buy off cheapest suppliers - which will be Big Pharma bulk buying

cheap and nasty herb ingredients bulk processing into cheap and nasty

herbal products which won't work very well. Patients won't get better

and will go back to doctors for expensive but profitable drugs. Net

result? Alternative medicine fails and Big Pharma wins.

 

'Course I may be a paranoid conspiracy theorist.

 

Just becos I'm paranoid doesn't mean nobody is watching me.

 

All I know is I'm not going.

 

Boycott anyone?

 

regardez

 

Stephen

[Guest guest]

Wouldn't it be better to attend and actually see what the bad guys are up to

instead of assuming.

stephen macallan [stephenmacallan]

Friday, July 10, 2893 6:44 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: something sinister or something wellcome????

 

hello all,

the wellcome foundation (pharma company) are hosting the

IASTAM asian medicine tradion and modernity conference on 2/12/04 in

london. Topics are CM and Ayurvedic med. Big names in CM are there -

Hugh Macpherson, Vivienne Lo, Volker Scheid, etc.

 

Is this getting into bed with the enemy?

 

Are we being seduced in order to get screwed?

 

 

Lets see, here in Uk, we may lose our right to buy high dose mins

and vits and low dose all sorts of currently freely available

supplements. We've lost kava kava (cos of 15 dubious adverse reactions

throught the whole of Europe), we nearly lost St. Johns wort on

account of a similar number of dubious adverse consequences

worldwide!! We've lost chinese herbs too but I'm a western-style

herbalist so I'm not familiar with what we've lost but I do get the

written formal notifications.

 

We may lose many, many, many herbs (Chinese ones too) because of

soon-to-be-implemented restrictions involving licensing and production

facilities. The suppliers here are ceasing to supply minority herbs in

preparation for the requirements.

 

Gossip is the plan is for herbalists to write presciptions for

patients to go off to Boots the chemist to get them filled and Boots

will buy off cheapest suppliers - which will be Big Pharma bulk buying

cheap and nasty herb ingredients bulk processing into cheap and nasty

herbal products which won't work very well. Patients won't get better

and will go back to doctors for expensive but profitable drugs. Net

result? Alternative medicine fails and Big Pharma wins.

 

'Course I may be a paranoid conspiracy theorist.

 

Just becos I'm paranoid doesn't mean nobody is watching me.

 

All I know is I'm not going.

 

Boycott anyone?

 

regardez

 

Stephen

[Guest guest]

Wait a minute, fellas.

 

Reality is usually a lot more complex than simple black and white. The

Wellcome Foundation folks are also bankrolling the research into the

Dunhuang medical manuscripts, which will add a tremendous amount of

information to Chinese medical history. They are giving voice to some

of our best scholars at this conference. Large organizations like this

are usually quite complex, and one arm doesn't always know what the

other is up to.

 

Check out this link:

 

http://asianmedcom.site.securepod.com/home.htm

 

While I agree with you in principle that pharmaceutical companies don't

wish us well as a rule, and could be quite obstructive to change,

within this reality are other things that could be of benefit to us.

 

It is like visiting a totalitarian country, and finding some great

people living there amidst the fear and paranoia.

 

I don't like monopolies, but within the medical monopoly there are

dollars being put aside to preserve our medical tradition's legacy.

 

I don't like pharmaceutical drugs, but sometimes those drugs could save

lives.

 

 

On Jul 23, 2004, at 9:14 PM, Lee Tritt wrote:

 

> Wouldn't it be better to attend and actually see what the bad guys are

> up to

> instead of assuming.

>

> stephen macallan [stephenmacallan]

> Friday, July 10, 2893 6:44 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: something sinister or something wellcome????

>

> hello all,

> the wellcome foundation (pharma company) are hosting the

> IASTAM asian medicine tradion and modernity conference on 2/12/04 in

> london. Topics are CM and Ayurvedic med. Big names in CM are there -

> Hugh Macpherson, Vivienne Lo, Volker Scheid, etc.

>

> Is this getting into bed with the enemy?

>

> Are we being seduced in order to get screwed?

>

>

> Lets see, here in Uk, we may lose our right to buy high dose mins

> and vits and low dose all sorts of currently freely available

> supplements. We've lost kava kava (cos of 15 dubious adverse

> reactions

> throught the whole of Europe), we nearly lost St. Johns wort on

> account of a similar number of dubious adverse consequences

> worldwide!! We've lost chinese herbs too but I'm a western-style

> herbalist so I'm not familiar with what we've lost but I do get the

> written formal notifications.

>

> We may lose many, many, many herbs (Chinese ones too) because of

> soon-to-be-implemented restrictions involving licensing and

> production

> facilities. The suppliers here are ceasing to supply minority herbs

> in

> preparation for the requirements.

>

> Gossip is the plan is for herbalists to write presciptions for

> patients to go off to Boots the chemist to get them filled and Boots

> will buy off cheapest suppliers - which will be Big Pharma bulk

> buying

> cheap and nasty herb ingredients bulk processing into cheap and nasty

> herbal products which won't work very well. Patients won't get better

> and will go back to doctors for expensive but profitable drugs. Net

> result? Alternative medicine fails and Big Pharma wins.

>

> 'Course I may be a paranoid conspiracy theorist.

>

> Just becos I'm paranoid doesn't mean nobody is watching me.

>

> All I know is I'm not going.

>

> Boycott anyone?

>

> regardez

>

> Stephen

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

hello lee,

yes it would, sorry

stephen

 

 

 

 

> Wouldn't it be better to attend and actually see what the bad guys are up to

> instead of assuming.

>

--

Stephen MacAllan

Lic.Ac., B.Ac., M.Ac., M.H.,

Cert.B.E.R.M., M.H.

M.B.Ac.C.,M.A.M.H.

Acupuncturist, Herbalist,

Kosmed practitioner

Vega-tester

www.stephenmacallan.co.uk

www.stephenandphilipnaturally.co.uk

powered by amiga 060/mediator

[Guest guest]

Yes Z'ev, your position is reasonable. The alarm comes because the 'good and the

bad', seem more polarized these days, and far from static, transparent plans to

hem our freedoms in set, and counting down. Like watching a prison being built

and knowing it'll house innocent people.

 

<zrosenbe wrote:Wait a minute, fellas.

 

Reality is usually a lot more complex than simple black and white. The

Wellcome Foundation folks are also bankrolling the research into the

Dunhuang medical manuscripts, which will add a tremendous amount of

information to Chinese medical history. They are giving voice to some

of our best scholars at this conference. Large organizations like this

are usually quite complex, and one arm doesn't always know what the

other is up to.

 

Check out this link:

 

http://asianmedcom.site.securepod.com/home.htm

 

While I agree with you in principle that pharmaceutical companies don't

wish us well as a rule, and could be quite obstructive to change,

within this reality are other things that could be of benefit to us.

 

It is like visiting a totalitarian country, and finding some great

people living there amidst the fear and paranoia.

 

I don't like monopolies, but within the medical monopoly there are

dollars being put aside to preserve our medical tradition's legacy.

 

I don't like pharmaceutical drugs, but sometimes those drugs could save

lives.

 

 

On Jul 23, 2004, at 9:14 PM, Lee Tritt wrote:

 

> Wouldn't it be better to attend and actually see what the bad guys are

> up to

> instead of assuming.

>

> stephen macallan [stephenmacallan]

> Friday, July 10, 2893 6:44 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: something sinister or something wellcome????

>

> hello all,

> the wellcome foundation (pharma company) are hosting the

> IASTAM asian medicine tradion and modernity conference on 2/12/04 in

> london. Topics are CM and Ayurvedic med. Big names in CM are there -

> Hugh Macpherson, Vivienne Lo, Volker Scheid, etc.

>

> Is this getting into bed with the enemy?

>

> Are we being seduced in order to get screwed?

>

>

> Lets see, here in Uk, we may lose our right to buy high dose mins

> and vits and low dose all sorts of currently freely available

> supplements. We've lost kava kava (cos of 15 dubious adverse

> reactions

> throught the whole of Europe), we nearly lost St. Johns wort on

> account of a similar number of dubious adverse consequences

> worldwide!! We've lost chinese herbs too but I'm a western-style

> herbalist so I'm not familiar with what we've lost but I do get the

> written formal notifications.

>

> We may lose many, many, many herbs (Chinese ones too) because of

> soon-to-be-implemented restrictions involving licensing and

> production

> facilities. The suppliers here are ceasing to supply minority herbs

> in

> preparation for the requirements.

>

> Gossip is the plan is for herbalists to write presciptions for

> patients to go off to Boots the chemist to get them filled and Boots

> will buy off cheapest suppliers - which will be Big Pharma bulk

> buying

> cheap and nasty herb ingredients bulk processing into cheap and nasty

> herbal products which won't work very well. Patients won't get better

> and will go back to doctors for expensive but profitable drugs. Net

> result? Alternative medicine fails and Big Pharma wins.

>

> 'Course I may be a paranoid conspiracy theorist.

>

> Just becos I'm paranoid doesn't mean nobody is watching me.

>

> All I know is I'm not going.

>

> Boycott anyone?

>

> regardez

>

> Stephen

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Z'ev, Mystir and All,

 

This is a group of Oxford University (Dr. Hsu, Dr. Lo, etc.) scholars doing the

heavy lifting in Chinese medicine for all concerned. That they chose to ask

" the big guys " for money to get this work done is no surprise considering they

are the academic superstars of the current cohort of people engaged in Chinese

medicine. I suppose they could have asked Bill Gates Foundation or the UK

government. The fact that they had the confidence to seek grant money from a

pharmaceutical company is actually a good sign, IMHO. Chinese medicine deserves

a place in the sun at the highest level of scholarly endeavor.

 

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

-

mystir

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, July 25, 2004 10:58 AM

Re: Re: something sinister or something wellcome????

 

 

Yes Z'ev, your position is reasonable. The alarm comes because the 'good and

the bad', seem more polarized these days, and far from static, transparent plans

to hem our freedoms in set, and counting down. Like watching a prison being

built and knowing it'll house innocent people.

 

<zrosenbe wrote:Wait a minute, fellas.

 

Reality is usually a lot more complex than simple black and white. The

Wellcome Foundation folks are also bankrolling the research into the

Dunhuang medical manuscripts, which will add a tremendous amount of

information to Chinese medical history. They are giving voice to some

of our best scholars at this conference. Large organizations like this

are usually quite complex, and one arm doesn't always know what the

other is up to.

 

Check out this link:

 

http://asianmedcom.site.securepod.com/home.htm

 

While I agree with you in principle that pharmaceutical companies don't

wish us well as a rule, and could be quite obstructive to change,

within this reality are other things that could be of benefit to us.

 

It is like visiting a totalitarian country, and finding some great

people living there amidst the fear and paranoia.

 

I don't like monopolies, but within the medical monopoly there are

dollars being put aside to preserve our medical tradition's legacy.

 

I don't like pharmaceutical drugs, but sometimes those drugs could save

lives.

 

On Jul 23, 2004, at 9:14 PM, Lee Tritt wrote:

 

> Wouldn't it be better to attend and actually see what the bad guys are

> up to

> instead of assuming.

>

> stephen macallan [stephenmacallan]

> Friday, July 10, 2893 6:44 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: something sinister or something wellcome????

>

> hello all,

> the wellcome foundation (pharma company) are hosting the

> IASTAM asian medicine tradion and modernity conference on 2/12/04 in

> london. Topics are CM and Ayurvedic med. Big names in CM are there -

> Hugh Macpherson, Vivienne Lo, Volker Scheid, etc.

>

> Is this getting into bed with the enemy?

>

> Are we being seduced in order to get screwed?

>

>

> Lets see, here in Uk, we may lose our right to buy high dose mins

> and vits and low dose all sorts of currently freely available

> supplements. We've lost kava kava (cos of 15 dubious adverse

> reactions

> throught the whole of Europe), we nearly lost St. Johns wort on

> account of a similar number of dubious adverse consequences

> worldwide!! We've lost chinese herbs too but I'm a western-style

> herbalist so I'm not familiar with what we've lost but I do get the

> written formal notifications.

>

> We may lose many, many, many herbs (Chinese ones too) because of

> soon-to-be-implemented restrictions involving licensing and

> production

> facilities. The suppliers here are ceasing to supply minority herbs

> in

> preparation for the requirements.

>

> Gossip is the plan is for herbalists to write presciptions for

> patients to go off to Boots the chemist to get them filled and Boots

> will buy off cheapest suppliers - which will be Big Pharma bulk

> buying

> cheap and nasty herb ingredients bulk processing into cheap and nasty

> herbal products which won't work very well. Patients won't get better

> and will go back to doctors for expensive but profitable drugs. Net

> result? Alternative medicine fails and Big Pharma wins.

>

> 'Course I may be a paranoid conspiracy theorist.

>

> Just becos I'm paranoid doesn't mean nobody is watching me.

>

> All I know is I'm not going.

>

> Boycott anyone?

>

> regardez

>

> Stephen

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

[Guest guest]

Are you sure the money came from a pharmaceutical company, or was it from

the Wellcome Foundation, the latter is NOT a pharma company. Lets give

credit where it is due, if it is the pharma company (which I doubt) then its

a nice surprise, but I'm pretty sure it will be the Wellcome Foundation

which as I said before, is not connected to the pharma company.

Susie

 

 

Message: 16

Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:33:39 -0700

" Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen

Re: Re: something sinister or something wellcome????

 

Z'ev, Mystir and All,

 

This is a group of Oxford University (Dr. Hsu, Dr. Lo, etc.) scholars doing

the heavy lifting in Chinese medicine for all concerned. That they chose to

ask " the big guys " for money to get this work done is no surprise

considering they are the academic superstars of the current cohort of people

engaged in Chinese medicine. I suppose they could have asked Bill Gates

Foundation or the UK government. The fact that they had the confidence to

seek grant money from a pharmaceutical company is actually a good sign,

IMHO. Chinese medicine deserves a place in the sun at the highest level of

scholarly endeavor.

 

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

[Guest guest]

My understanding is that the Wellcome Foundation used to be connected

with the pharmaceutical company of same/similar name, but is an

independent institution now. If anyone has any other information on

this, I will gladly stand corrected. However, it doesn't change the

point that we should be careful to attack issues in a black and white

manner, such as the original issue of pharmaceutical companies funding

Chinese medical research.

 

 

On Jul 26, 2004, at 3:34 AM, susie parkinson wrote:

 

> Are you sure the money came from a pharmaceutical company, or was it

> from

> the Wellcome Foundation, the latter is NOT a pharma company. Lets give

> credit where it is due, if it is the pharma company (which I doubt)

> then its

> a nice surprise, but I'm pretty sure it will be the Wellcome Foundation

> which as I said before, is not connected to the pharma company.

> Susie

[Guest guest]

Your sentiments are right on target; you brought up a

good point I didn't consider before: when all herbal

suppliers are driven out, then the big cos. will sell

their cheap knock-offs to whomever's left, then these

cheapo concoctions will convince everyone to go

running back to their MDs, who will take us back as

errant but still-loved children.

John Garbarini

 

--- mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote:

> That sounds about right. Nothing short of a world

> wide strike will derail the Market Forces

> coordinated plans to further milk the lower classes

> for everything they've got, and then keep milking.

> Not paranoid, informed.

>

> stephen macallan <stephenmacallan

> wrote:hello all,

> the wellcome foundation (pharma company)

> are hosting the

> IASTAM asian medicine tradion and modernity

> conference on 2/12/04 in

> london. Topics are CM and Ayurvedic med. Big names

> in CM are there -

> Hugh Macpherson, Vivienne Lo, Volker Scheid, etc.

>

> Is this getting into bed with the enemy?

>

> Are we being seduced in order to get screwed?

>

>

> Lets see, here in Uk, we may lose our right to buy

> high dose mins

> and vits and low dose all sorts of currently freely

> available

> supplements. We've lost kava kava (cos of 15 dubious

> adverse reactions

> throught the whole of Europe), we nearly lost St.

> Johns wort on

> account of a similar number of dubious adverse

> consequences

> worldwide!! We've lost chinese herbs too but I'm a

> western-style

> herbalist so I'm not familiar with what we've lost

> but I do get the

> written formal notifications.

>

> We may lose many, many, many herbs (Chinese ones

> too) because of

> soon-to-be-implemented restrictions involving

> licensing and production

> facilities. The suppliers here are ceasing to supply

> minority herbs in

> preparation for the requirements.

>

> Gossip is the plan is for herbalists to write

> presciptions for

> patients to go off to Boots the chemist to get them

> filled and Boots

> will buy off cheapest suppliers - which will be Big

> Pharma bulk buying

> cheap and nasty herb ingredients bulk processing

> into cheap and nasty

> herbal products which won't work very well. Patients

> won't get better

> and will go back to doctors for expensive but

> profitable drugs. Net

> result? Alternative medicine fails and Big Pharma

> wins.

>

> 'Course I may be a paranoid conspiracy theorist.

>

> Just becos I'm paranoid doesn't mean nobody is

> watching me.

>

> All I know is I'm not going.

>

> Boycott anyone?

>

> regardez

>

> Stephen

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Susie,

 

No, in my conversations with Dr. Lo online, the topic of her specific funding

sources never came up. I'm so used to looking things up in Merck Manuel of

Diagnosis and Therapy along with many other professional publications that it

never occurred to me to be worried about professional funding sources ... though

I suppose it's something to consider. Most research in America is funded by the

Dept. of Defense with only a very small percentage coming from the National

Science Foundation and even less from NIH. Since this is not " private sector "

research (like Bell Laboratories), then the " owner " of the research are the

people who publish. After reading Elizabeth Hsu, Vivienne Lo, etc. Innovations

in , I can't think off hand of how a pharmaceutical company

would make use of this information for a product. Can you?

 

Personally, I really don't have any objection if a pharm. company decided to do

so. For example, my own feeling about statins from Merck funded research

remains the same. Chinese medicine from an herbal perspective is about cooking

herbs as formulas and drinking the decoction. It doesn't interact or interfere

with the fortunes of Merck. Nor do the fortunes of Merck interfere with CM ...

so far. Most of us in the scientific community, however, are a bit taken aback

that Merck managed to " get away " with patenting Lovastatin and keeping the

patent intact upon legal appeal. Technically you can sell naturally occurring

statins if you don't call them statins. It is a rather odd situation.

 

Regarding the work of the Chinese medical scholars and where ever they get their

funding, I would not be put off if Merck, Pfizer, Roche or other such entities

came up with funding. Regarding your specific question, I don't know the answer

but I will post to the people at Wellcome Foundation to ask this question. I'll

have to think of a way of asking that isn't too rude.

 

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

-

susie parkinson

Chinese Medicine

Monday, July 26, 2004 3:34 AM

RE: something sinister or something wellcome????

 

 

Are you sure the money came from a pharmaceutical company, or was it from

the Wellcome Foundation, the latter is NOT a pharma company. Lets give

credit where it is due, if it is the pharma company (which I doubt) then its

a nice surprise, but I'm pretty sure it will be the Wellcome Foundation

which as I said before, is not connected to the pharma company.

Susie