Guest guest Posted July 15, 2001 Report Share Posted July 15, 2001 Todd: Even Flaws admits that the theory of yin fire is not well known in China in his article " Yin Fire Case Histories from China " on the BP website. " Unfortunately, this theory is not well known either in China, its birthplace, or in the West, the adopted home of Chinese medicine. Recently, in talking to a graduate of a six year program at the Guangdong College of , it became apparent to me that this theory is not routinely taught even to postgraduate students in the People's Republic of China. Therefore, I am always on the look- out for any information on this theory and its clinical use. " But, much to his credit, he is quite correct in acknowledging the theory's importance and application. His championing yin fire in TCM is commendable and insightful. In our system, we often see it in pulse diagnosis but find it easier to follow from a 5-Phases perspective----in line with Birch's differentiation between Zang-fu and 5-Phases in his essay in Manaka's " Chasing the Dragon " (Paradigm, 1995). James Ramholz Sunday, July 15, 2001 8:08 PM cha yin fire Recently some of my students told me that some of their other professors have been suggesting that Bob Flaws's take on yin fire is basically made up and has little or no antecedent in actual chinese literature. That his thoughts are highly speculative and not well supported. I found this peculiar because the latest BP online journal contains articles from chinese language journals that use yin fire theory to treat complex unusual illnesses, just as Flaws suggests. Any thoughts? -- Chinese Herbs VOICE: (858) 946-0070 FAX: (858) 946 0067 Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2001 Report Share Posted July 15, 2001 , jramholz wrote: : > > Even Flaws admits that the theory of yin fire is not well known in > China in his article " Yin Fire Case Histories from China " on the BP > website. But his exposition of this theory is not MSU. It IS based on antecedent. It is my understanding that articles on this theory have been appearing frequently in chinese journals of recent years. It was definitely not taught from the 60's to the mid 90's in china, and none of my chinese colleagues put much stock in it. However, my personal teacher of TCM in Portland actually learned CM from her father as a child. He was devotee of li dong yuan and zhu dan xi and I was always perplexed at her prescribing. She always treated complex multiple patterns, often modifying bu zhong yi qi tang with damp transformers, bitter cooling agents and yin tonics. When I inquired, she would merely say that was what her father did and direct me to the pi wei lun and dan xi xin fa. It was only after Flaws began to write about this that I fully understood her approach (albeit in hindsight). I suspect that that this theory has become more in vogue as China becomes more westernized. Adopting our diet and lifestyles has no doubt led to the appearance of similar health problems that were not as prevalent during the heyday of maoism. My teacher had such great success with serious illnesses, so much moreso than any of the other acus I was exposed to at that time that I have adopted her methods without question. Thus my adherence to addressing mutually engendering pathology and my bias towards high dosage. she would frequently comment that so and so's formula would never work because the doses were way too low. thus, while other methods may work just as well, I have seen no reason to vary from this theme over the past 9 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2001 Report Share Posted July 15, 2001 Not only is this an uninformed view, that the yin fire concept has been 'made up', many later physicians based their prescription method on Li Dong-yuan. One example is Fu Qing-zhu, who wrote perhaps the greatest standard text on gynecology. Many of his prescriptions are based on spleen/stomach theory, such as Wan Dai Tang. Another modern TCM physician, Sun Bin-yan, the cancer specialist, also bases his prescriptions largely on spleen/stomach theory. A great Japanese physician, Ekiken Kaibara, based his approach to medicine on Dr. Li's work as well. As Bensky notes in " Formulas and Strategies " , there are whole schools of thought in prescriptions based on just Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang. Bob's work is based on solid ground, and there is something very important going on here. Dr. Li's approach best explains the complex disease patterns seen in modern practice. To ignore it is as at one's own peril if one is practicing herbal medicine. On Sunday, July 15, 2001, at 07:07 PM, > Recently some of my students told me that some of their other professors > have been suggesting that Bob Flaws's take on yin fire is basically made > up and has little or no antecedent in actual chinese literature. That > his thoughts are highly speculative and not well supported. I found > this peculiar because the latest BP online journal contains articles > from chinese language journals that use yin fire theory to treat complex > unusual illnesses, just as Flaws suggests. Any thoughts? > > -- > > Chinese Herbs > > VOICE: (858) 946-0070 > FAX: (858) 946 0067 > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2001 Report Share Posted July 16, 2001 Todd: We're both on the same side of this issue. The entire second paragraph in my last post was a quotation from the Flaws article, " Yin Fire Case Histories from China. " I never thought he made it up; and he is the one who says there are few antecedents. Just because a theory hasn't received wide-spread acclaim, doesn't mean it is not important. It's to Flaws' credit that he saw the value of yin fire and promoted it in TCM. Now, what about other " orphan " theories? For example, who uses the Yun Chi (Su Wen chapters 64-71) in clinical practice? Jim Ramholz Sunday, July 15, 2001 9:24 PM Re: yin fire , jramholz wrote: : > > Even Flaws admits that the theory of yin fire is not well known in > China in his article " Yin Fire Case Histories from China " on the BP > website. But his exposition of this theory is not MSU. It IS based on antecedent. It is my understanding that articles on this theory have been appearing frequently in chinese journals of recent years. It was definitely not taught from the 60's to the mid 90's in china, and none of my chinese colleagues put much stock in it. However, my personal teacher of TCM in Portland actually learned CM from her father as a child. He was devotee of li dong yuan and zhu dan xi and I was always perplexed at her prescribing. She always treated complex multiple patterns, often modifying bu zhong yi qi tang with damp transformers, bitter cooling agents and yin tonics. When I inquired, she would merely say that was what her father did and direct me to the pi wei lun and dan xi xin fa. It was only after Flaws began to write about this that I fully understood her approach (albeit in hindsight). I suspect that that this theory has become more in vogue as China becomes more westernized. Adopting our diet and lifestyles has no doubt led to the appearance of similar health problems that were not as prevalent during the heyday of maoism. My teacher had such great success with serious illnesses, so much moreso than any of the other acus I was exposed to at that time that I have adopted her methods without question. Thus my adherence to addressing mutually engendering pathology and my bias towards high dosage. she would frequently comment that so and so's formula would never work because the doses were way too low. thus, while other methods may work just as well, I have seen no reason to vary from this theme over the past 9 years. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2001 Report Share Posted July 16, 2001 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: Dr. Li's approach best explains the complex disease patterns seen in modern practice. To ignore it is as at one's own peril if one is practicing herbal medicine. Z'ev: Or practicing acupuncture, too. In our style of 5-Phases, the spleen and stomach play a central and multifaceted role. Earth and Water form the basis of the endocrine system; Earth and Wood, the digestive system; Earth and Fire, the nervous system; Earth and Metal the immune system. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2001 Report Share Posted July 16, 2001 Now, what about other " orphan " theories? For example, who uses the Yun Chi (Su Wen chapters 64-71) in clinical practice? Jim Ramholz Well don't stop there!! Tell us more about it , please Heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2001 Report Share Posted July 16, 2001 Heiko: Using these other " orphan " ideas is an interesting exercise. It has been my observation that the Tai Yang phase of the cold and flu season has been getting shorter and shorter during the last decade. Colds and flu now go deeper much more quickly; sometimes not clearly manifesting superficial symptoms. Because 2001 is a Metal Snake year and Water deficient year, how does the overall energy balance contribute to the general 5-Phase conditions in the Fall? What symptoms should you be expecting during the next cold and flu season, and what herbal formula would you use or modify? Jim Ramholz , Heiko Lade <heiko@l...> wrote: > Now, what about other " orphan " theories? For example, who uses the > Yun Chi (Su Wen chapters 64-71) in clinical practice? > > Jim Ramholz > > Well don't stop there!! > Tell us more about it, please > > Heiko James Ramholz Silk Road Acupuncture Center 112 E. Laurel Fort Collins, CO 80524-3029 (970) 482-5900 Voice (970) 482-4681 Fax (303) 522-3348 Cell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Hi all, I recently read 's paper that he shared on yin fire, and found it very interesting. I'm curious to hear what experiences you all have had with treating yin fire. I was thinking about how challenging our medicine is: As he mentioned, dampness can make you thirsty by blocking the fluids. On the other hand, yin deficiency can also coincide with dampness...so this is tricky medicine that we practice! Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 Yes, tricky indeed. Pls all who have a view in any way related, pls post. I am reviewing all I can find as far as theory, Dx, Tx and so on, and how it may differ from the shao yang heat. peace, fran heylaurag <heylaurag wrote:Hi all, I recently read 's paper that he shared on yin fire, and found it very interesting. I'm curious to hear what experiences you all have had with treating yin fire. I was thinking about how challenging our medicine is: As he mentioned, dampness can make you thirsty by blocking the fluids. On the other hand, yin deficiency can also coincide with dampness...so this is tricky medicine that we practice! Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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