Guest guest Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 Hi Ming and All, I responded to this post but it never showed up on the board for some reason. Kinda weird. So I will try again. I have mainly focused on clearing his dampheat because the tongue coating is so thick and the alcohol so clearly makes him worse. But I think there is also yin deficiency, so if I clear too much dampheat he starts to feel worse, so its tricky. I've tried to soothe the liver to help him cope with the dampheat draining, but then he gets qi deficient very easily and his stomach starts to hurt and he is tired etc. He seems to tip one direction or the other with very little nudging. Its frustrating because just when I think I've made some headway on his dampheat he has a drinking binge. Its tough not to get upset with him when he does this (honestly), but on another level its easy to understand---a person can only resist doing something that they know will give them temporary relief for so long. Also, without an understanding of energy medicine I think its easy for him to believe that one binge every couple months won't really hurt him (but I'm convinced he would recover nearly fully if he stopped doing that, along with getting acupuncture). I think that his paranoia (fear) along with many other symptoms indicates kidney xu, but its nearly impossible to tonify the kidneys when there is so much dampheat. At times he has benefited from acupuncture treatments that both tonify the kidneys (K 3) and clear dampheat (Ren 3, LI 11, Sp 9, GB 34). Othertimes it doesn't seem to help, and he may even feel worse. I don't know that there's one answer to this, but I thought I'd throw the situation out there to see if anyone has any ideas. Also I really wanted to know if the dragon treatment or AE would maybe help. Thanks for listening! Laura Chinese Medicine , " Ming H. Lee " <aceqihealer> wrote: > Hey Laura, > > Can you tell me what you are already doing that doesn't seem to work? I have a feeling the answer could be right under your nose. > > Ming > > heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > Hi, > > I have a patient who is also a friend of mine that I have been > thinking about using the aggressive energy treatment on. He is a > truly remarkable man who, despite his mental illness, remains highly > perceptive and wise (except when he is talking about his psychotic > beliefs, of course). He was a recovering addict with 11 years clean > and sober when his mother died and his girlfriend broke up with him, > leading to a now 3-year relapse on alcohol. During that time he > started to develop psychosis--hearing voices and paranoia. He's > gotten to a point where he usually goes about 2 months before he has > another drinking binge, but even with this much time inbetween > binges, his psychotic symptoms get much worse afterward. There is a > very clear connection between his psychosis and his drinking. > > If you've seen the movie, " A Beautiful Mind " , that is my friend. > Most of the time he is able to avoid believing the cruel, degrading > and frightening things that the voices are telling him. But > sometimes it is a real challenge not to...understandably. > > His mother had some very serious problems and made his whole life > very, very difficult (she probably needed the dragon treatment-- she'd > been a victim of horrendous violence). Perhaps he needs the dragon > treatment too, but I haven't any idea how to do it. So I thought I > would consider an aggressive energy treatment. Please let me know if > any of you have experience with treating someone like this. So far > he has been just about the most challenging person I've ever > treated. Everytime I think I've figured out an angle on how to help > him things switch on me. He really, really does not want to have to > take anti-psychotics. He's gone to other acupuncturists and not > improved there either. Can TCM or 5 E help someone with symptoms > like this? > > By the way, he has a very thick, VERY THICK yellow coating on the > back of his tongue and is also yin xu (probably jing too). > > Thanks in advance, > > Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 Hi Laura I had a similar patient who, as a child, was subjected to " religous abuse " by his parents. He was also an identical twin and his parents eventually sent his brother and him for " therapy " because they rebelled against their parents extremely fundamentalist Christian teachings and demands. At the mental hospital in the 70's where they were incarcerated, the doctors delighted in the chance to do a twin study and subjected them to many experiments and experimental medications to which they both responded with various violent physical side-effects--since there was nothing wrong with them to begin with! Twenty five years later at 40, he presented with most of the same stuff you describe, hearing voices that he was convinced were trying to help him with his spiritual development. Luckily, they weren't telling him to kill people!! He was a very intelligent, well-meaning, spiritually seeking individual and found he needed some alcohol each day to keep smoothe enough to operate. He did, however, have a hair trigger temper and would break things readily when angry and was frightened he might hurt someone if he got into an intimate relationship. His tongue coat was extremely thick and yellow. His face was completely red all the time (he was a blonde and I wasn't sure at first if it was heart-heat or not). I diagnosed him with Phlegm Fire Misting the Portals and gave him Sheng Tie Luo Yin which took wonderful effect immediately. One cannot obtain Sheng Tie Luo (iron filings) these days and I understand it's potentially kind of toxic with heavy metal contamination so I chose to sub Long Gu instead. Also the patient didn't like the smell of Dan Nan Xing (bile processed Tian Nan Xing) so we took it out. He's really doing quite well, much more calm, I could even distinguish a change in his very nervous speaking after only one cup of the formula when he called me the next day to report his feeling. Sheng di Huang is present in the formula so yin is addressed though for your patient their may need to be some adjustments if his yin is even more depleted than my patient's. This formula seems to address yang rising, phlegm, heart fire and yin xu so one could just mess around with the dosages a little to lean it in the right direction. I'm not sure this is what you're dealing with, but, at least for me, it took a lot of guts to try such a strong formula and make such a drastic diagnosis (I only have 2 1/2 years experience). But he has no side effects and is doing great as I said. His social life is blossoming. He drinks less and wants to quit smoking as well. The effects of Chinese herbs are truly the most amazing medicine I have ever had the pleasure to witness. Email me offlist if you want to further discuss this or whatever. Good Luck. Regards, Shanna Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > Hi Ming and All, > > I responded to this post but it never showed up on the board for some > reason. Kinda weird. So I will try again. > > I have mainly focused on clearing his dampheat because the tongue > coating is so thick and the alcohol so clearly makes him worse. But > I think there is also yin deficiency, so if I clear too much dampheat > he starts to feel worse, so its tricky. I've tried to soothe the > liver to help him cope with the dampheat draining, but then he gets > qi deficient very easily and his stomach starts to hurt and he is > tired etc. He seems to tip one direction or the other with very > little nudging. Its frustrating because just when I think I've made > some headway on his dampheat he has a drinking binge. Its tough not > to get upset with him when he does this (honestly), but on another > level its easy to understand---a person can only resist doing > something that they know will give them temporary relief for so > long. Also, without an understanding of energy medicine I think its > easy for him to believe that one binge every couple months won't > really hurt him (but I'm convinced he would recover nearly fully if > he stopped doing that, along with getting acupuncture). > > I think that his paranoia (fear) along with many other symptoms > indicates kidney xu, but its nearly impossible to tonify the kidneys > when there is so much dampheat. At times he has benefited from > acupuncture treatments that both tonify the kidneys (K 3) and clear > dampheat (Ren 3, LI 11, Sp 9, GB 34). Othertimes it doesn't seem to > help, and he may even feel worse. > > I don't know that there's one answer to this, but I thought I'd throw > the situation out there to see if anyone has any ideas. Also I > really wanted to know if the dragon treatment or AE would maybe help. > > Thanks for listening! > > Laura > > > Chinese Medicine , " Ming H. Lee " > <aceqihealer> wrote: > > Hey Laura, > > > > Can you tell me what you are already doing that doesn't seem to > work? I have a feeling the answer could be right under your nose. > > > > Ming > > > > heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I have a patient who is also a friend of mine that I have been > > thinking about using the aggressive energy treatment on. He is a > > truly remarkable man who, despite his mental illness, remains > highly > > perceptive and wise (except when he is talking about his psychotic > > beliefs, of course). He was a recovering addict with 11 years clean > > and sober when his mother died and his girlfriend broke up with > him, > > leading to a now 3-year relapse on alcohol. During that time he > > started to develop psychosis--hearing voices and paranoia. He's > > gotten to a point where he usually goes about 2 months before he > has > > another drinking binge, but even with this much time inbetween > > binges, his psychotic symptoms get much worse afterward. There is > a > > very clear connection between his psychosis and his drinking. > > > > If you've seen the movie, " A Beautiful Mind " , that is my friend. > > Most of the time he is able to avoid believing the cruel, degrading > > and frightening things that the voices are telling him. But > > sometimes it is a real challenge not to...understandably. > > > > His mother had some very serious problems and made his whole life > > very, very difficult (she probably needed the dragon treatment-- > she'd > > been a victim of horrendous violence). Perhaps he needs the dragon > > treatment too, but I haven't any idea how to do it. So I thought I > > would consider an aggressive energy treatment. Please let me know > if > > any of you have experience with treating someone like this. So far > > he has been just about the most challenging person I've ever > > treated. Everytime I think I've figured out an angle on how to > help > > him things switch on me. He really, really does not want to have > to > > take anti-psychotics. He's gone to other acupuncturists and not > > improved there either. Can TCM or 5 E help someone with symptoms > > like this? > > > > By the way, he has a very thick, VERY THICK yellow coating on the > > back of his tongue and is also yin xu (probably jing too). > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 Hey Laura, I think the problem may actually lie in his fire element, and as you know this includes his heart, small intestine, and san jiao channels. He has a thick coating on his tongue, yet attempts to clear his dampheat made him feel worse. When you tried to sooth the liver, he get qi deficient and his stomach would starts to hurt. What these signs suggest to me is that his spleen and liver are not his major problems. If spleen and stomach points do not relieve the dampness, you might also consider the san jiao channel. Alcoholism does do damage to the liver, yes, but the bigger problem here is his own frustration with the lack of progress to his addiction problem and his mental illness. Kidney deficiency may be one of the factors that leads to paranoia, but it appears that it is what this deficiency leads to that should be the concern: Heart Fire, which can also be heart yin deficiency. Since K3 worked before, it seems likely that his problem can be eased if his kidney water is able to interact with his heart fire and vice versa. Your focus here should be two fronts: 1). Addiction and 2). balance his yin and yang through reconnecting the heart and the kidney, which is the fundamental yin (K) and yang (H) elements in the human body. Let's try these points: (UB=Urinary Bladder=BL) UB15, UB22, UB23, UB27(This point is optional, but needle if he feels sore when you palpate). K3, Sp6, P6, H5, H7, and either (SI 3 and SI 8) or (SJ7and SJ10) or a mixed combination of these 4 points depending on which set of points get the bigger soreness or pain reaction when you palpate these points. For herbal formula you try Tien Wan Bu Xin Dan, which is frequently used for treating insomnia, but the formula is specifically used to connect the water and fire elements in the body. Alternatively, you can also try Liu Wei Di Huang Wan + herb Suan Zao Ren if you are concerned about relieving his dampheat. This one has the advantage of tonifying yin and relieving dampness at the same time. Both are good choices here. Keep me posted on what happens next. BTW, the only time to panic is when your patient has lost faith in you, and you don't have that problem here. You have a very good patient and a friend. Good luck! :=) Ming heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: Hi Ming and All, I responded to this post but it never showed up on the board for some reason. Kinda weird. So I will try again. I have mainly focused on clearing his dampheat because the tongue coating is so thick and the alcohol so clearly makes him worse. But I think there is also yin deficiency, so if I clear too much dampheat he starts to feel worse, so its tricky. I've tried to soothe the liver to help him cope with the dampheat draining, but then he gets qi deficient very easily and his stomach starts to hurt and he is tired etc. He seems to tip one direction or the other with very little nudging. Its frustrating because just when I think I've made some headway on his dampheat he has a drinking binge. Its tough not to get upset with him when he does this (honestly), but on another level its easy to understand---a person can only resist doing something that they know will give them temporary relief for so long. Also, without an understanding of energy medicine I think its easy for him to believe that one binge every couple months won't really hurt him (but I'm convinced he would recover nearly fully if he stopped doing that, along with getting acupuncture). I think that his paranoia (fear) along with many other symptoms indicates kidney xu, but its nearly impossible to tonify the kidneys when there is so much dampheat. At times he has benefited from acupuncture treatments that both tonify the kidneys (K 3) and clear dampheat (Ren 3, LI 11, Sp 9, GB 34). Othertimes it doesn't seem to help, and he may even feel worse. I don't know that there's one answer to this, but I thought I'd throw the situation out there to see if anyone has any ideas. Also I really wanted to know if the dragon treatment or AE would maybe help. Thanks for listening! Laura Chinese Medicine , " Ming H. Lee " <aceqihealer> wrote: > Hey Laura, > > Can you tell me what you are already doing that doesn't seem to work? I have a feeling the answer could be right under your nose. > > Ming > > heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > Hi, > > I have a patient who is also a friend of mine that I have been > thinking about using the aggressive energy treatment on. He is a > truly remarkable man who, despite his mental illness, remains highly > perceptive and wise (except when he is talking about his psychotic > beliefs, of course). He was a recovering addict with 11 years clean > and sober when his mother died and his girlfriend broke up with him, > leading to a now 3-year relapse on alcohol. During that time he > started to develop psychosis--hearing voices and paranoia. He's > gotten to a point where he usually goes about 2 months before he has > another drinking binge, but even with this much time inbetween > binges, his psychotic symptoms get much worse afterward. There is a > very clear connection between his psychosis and his drinking. > > If you've seen the movie, " A Beautiful Mind " , that is my friend. > Most of the time he is able to avoid believing the cruel, degrading > and frightening things that the voices are telling him. But > sometimes it is a real challenge not to...understandably. > > His mother had some very serious problems and made his whole life > very, very difficult (she probably needed the dragon treatment-- she'd > been a victim of horrendous violence). Perhaps he needs the dragon > treatment too, but I haven't any idea how to do it. So I thought I > would consider an aggressive energy treatment. Please let me know if > any of you have experience with treating someone like this. So far > he has been just about the most challenging person I've ever > treated. Everytime I think I've figured out an angle on how to help > him things switch on me. He really, really does not want to have to > take anti-psychotics. He's gone to other acupuncturists and not > improved there either. Can TCM or 5 E help someone with symptoms > like this? > > By the way, he has a very thick, VERY THICK yellow coating on the > back of his tongue and is also yin xu (probably jing too). > > Thanks in advance, > > Laura Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. 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Guest guest Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 Thank you for these ideas. I will definitely look into them. I have felt that he needed Chinese herbs to truly heal, but haven't had the guts to prescribe much. I have given him Long Dan Xie Gan Tang with some Bai He, and that seemed to help for a short time, but then he started to get worse. I think he had a drinking binge at that point, so I got nervous about giving him herbs. But this sounds like a good choice. He also took up smoking again after all that he went through, after being free of nicotine for many years. Its really sad and shocking to watch what has happened--he actually used to be a bit obsessive about how careful he was with his diet and health! For instance, he never used salt or sugar! I just wish that he could get the same inspiration again to live such a healthy lifestyle. I think its going to be mandatory if he wants another chance at a good life. He still teaches guitar to children and adults, and all of his clients adore him and send him referrals. He has to turn people away all the time. The guy could really just soar if given a chance. If he could get a handle on his addictions....and his loneliness (relationships with women have been few and far between, and that is very hard for him). By the way, I think that his gallbladder is another issue. His mother's nearly exploded, requiring emergency surgery, so there's probably a genetic weakness. And he often wakes with a sense of dread, which also points to his heart as well. Thanks again! Laura Chinese Medicine , " shannahickle " <shannahickle> wrote: > Hi Laura > > I had a similar patient who, as a child, was subjected to " religous > abuse " by his parents. He was also an identical twin and his parents > eventually sent his brother and him for " therapy " because they > rebelled against their parents extremely fundamentalist Christian > teachings and demands. At the mental hospital in the 70's where > they were incarcerated, the doctors delighted in the chance to do a > twin study and subjected them to many experiments and experimental > medications to which they both responded with various violent > physical side-effects--since there was nothing wrong with them to > begin with! Twenty five years later at 40, he presented with most of > the same stuff you describe, hearing voices that he was convinced > were trying to help him with his spiritual development. Luckily, > they weren't telling him to kill people!! He was a very intelligent, > well-meaning, spiritually seeking individual and found he needed > some alcohol each day to keep smoothe enough to operate. He did, > however, have a hair trigger temper and would break things readily > when angry and was frightened he might hurt someone if he got into > an intimate relationship. His tongue coat was extremely thick and > yellow. His face was completely red all the time (he was a blonde > and I wasn't sure at first if it was heart-heat or not). I diagnosed > him with Phlegm Fire Misting the Portals and gave him Sheng Tie Luo > Yin which took wonderful effect immediately. One cannot obtain Sheng > Tie Luo (iron filings) these days and I understand it's potentially > kind of toxic with heavy metal contamination so I chose to sub Long > Gu instead. Also the patient didn't like the smell of Dan Nan Xing > (bile processed Tian Nan Xing) so we took it out. He's really doing > quite well, much more calm, I could even distinguish a change in his > very nervous speaking after only one cup of the formula when he > called me the next day to report his feeling. Sheng di Huang is > present in the formula so yin is addressed though for your patient > their may need to be some adjustments if his yin is even more > depleted than my patient's. This formula seems to address yang > rising, phlegm, heart fire and yin xu so one could just mess around > with the dosages a little to lean it in the right direction. I'm not > sure this is what you're dealing with, but, at least for me, it took > a lot of guts to try such a strong formula and make such a drastic > diagnosis (I only have 2 1/2 years experience). But he has no side > effects and is doing great as I said. His social life is blossoming. > He drinks less and wants to quit smoking as well. The effects of > Chinese herbs are truly the most amazing medicine I have ever had > the pleasure to witness. Email me offlist if you want to further > discuss this or whatever. Good Luck. > > Regards, Shanna > Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " > <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > Hi Ming and All, > > > > I responded to this post but it never showed up on the board for > some > > reason. Kinda weird. So I will try again. > > > > I have mainly focused on clearing his dampheat because the tongue > > coating is so thick and the alcohol so clearly makes him worse. > But > > I think there is also yin deficiency, so if I clear too much > dampheat > > he starts to feel worse, so its tricky. I've tried to soothe the > > liver to help him cope with the dampheat draining, but then he > gets > > qi deficient very easily and his stomach starts to hurt and he is > > tired etc. He seems to tip one direction or the other with very > > little nudging. Its frustrating because just when I think I've > made > > some headway on his dampheat he has a drinking binge. Its tough > not > > to get upset with him when he does this (honestly), but on another > > level its easy to understand---a person can only resist doing > > something that they know will give them temporary relief for so > > long. Also, without an understanding of energy medicine I think > its > > easy for him to believe that one binge every couple months won't > > really hurt him (but I'm convinced he would recover nearly fully > if > > he stopped doing that, along with getting acupuncture). > > > > I think that his paranoia (fear) along with many other symptoms > > indicates kidney xu, but its nearly impossible to tonify the > kidneys > > when there is so much dampheat. At times he has benefited from > > acupuncture treatments that both tonify the kidneys (K 3) and > clear > > dampheat (Ren 3, LI 11, Sp 9, GB 34). Othertimes it doesn't seem > to > > help, and he may even feel worse. > > > > I don't know that there's one answer to this, but I thought I'd > throw > > the situation out there to see if anyone has any ideas. Also I > > really wanted to know if the dragon treatment or AE would maybe > help. > > > > Thanks for listening! > > > > Laura > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Ming H. Lee " > > <aceqihealer> wrote: > > > Hey Laura, > > > > > > Can you tell me what you are already doing that doesn't seem to > > work? I have a feeling the answer could be right under your nose. > > > > > > Ming > > > > > > heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > I have a patient who is also a friend of mine that I have been > > > thinking about using the aggressive energy treatment on. He is a > > > truly remarkable man who, despite his mental illness, remains > > highly > > > perceptive and wise (except when he is talking about his > psychotic > > > beliefs, of course). He was a recovering addict with 11 years > clean > > > and sober when his mother died and his girlfriend broke up with > > him, > > > leading to a now 3-year relapse on alcohol. During that time he > > > started to develop psychosis--hearing voices and paranoia. He's > > > gotten to a point where he usually goes about 2 months before he > > has > > > another drinking binge, but even with this much time inbetween > > > binges, his psychotic symptoms get much worse afterward. There > is > > a > > > very clear connection between his psychosis and his drinking. > > > > > > If you've seen the movie, " A Beautiful Mind " , that is my > friend. > > > Most of the time he is able to avoid believing the cruel, > degrading > > > and frightening things that the voices are telling him. But > > > sometimes it is a real challenge not to...understandably. > > > > > > His mother had some very serious problems and made his whole > life > > > very, very difficult (she probably needed the dragon treatment-- > > she'd > > > been a victim of horrendous violence). Perhaps he needs the > dragon > > > treatment too, but I haven't any idea how to do it. So I > thought I > > > would consider an aggressive energy treatment. Please let me > know > > if > > > any of you have experience with treating someone like this. So > far > > > he has been just about the most challenging person I've ever > > > treated. Everytime I think I've figured out an angle on how to > > help > > > him things switch on me. He really, really does not want to > have > > to > > > take anti-psychotics. He's gone to other acupuncturists and not > > > improved there either. Can TCM or 5 E help someone with > symptoms > > > like this? > > > > > > By the way, he has a very thick, VERY THICK yellow coating on > the > > > back of his tongue and is also yin xu (probably jing too). > > > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > > > Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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