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All the figures are in the documents. Please look closer, and even try to

disproove any of it. It is actually worse. The figures are the absolute

minimum. If the TCM community had that percentage of error, we'd be hung by the

neck and whipped to the seventh generation.

If doing good is a real motivation, then to help influence the system by saving

a million lives by creating awareness of lethal problems seems worthwhile to me.

I'm probably not going to accomplish that much in my clinic in my lifespan. I

don't really see many medical people talking at all about these things. And to

poo-poo all the problems as just somebody's opinion without even considering it,

I feel that is unbelievably ignorant or selfish. This is big kid stuff. Things

are moving quickly away from being able to be solved. In time we may not even

have the vocabulary for dealing with critcism of the Market Forces.

Would you want to eliminate the sources of cancer, or play around trying to

keep your patients alive for a couple more years, as you see younger and younger

less likely patients getting cancer or everything else? I don't know if they

lack the ability to see where things are going, or the strength to deal with it,

or don't want to bite the hand that feeds them, or all the above. Repeating

these kind of findings doesn't make anyone wealthy or popular,( I am active in

other areas beside medicine) my son said I should let it go cause nobody cares

and wouldn't believe it, and you'll just get depressed. That is sad. The

saddest thing to me is that the healthcare people, the ones that should see the

increases in disease suffering and their causes -don't. They can't believe it.

Not because many things aren't true, but because it threatens their professional

pride, and the comfort of some authority to proscribe treatment

protocols--whether or not they have disastrous effect down

the road. In a poetic sense, every tear on earth is polluted, each year more

toxic with profitable industrial effluent that pools and eats away at little

bodies and nobodys' seed is spared. How can you not care? We see the damage

better than almost anyone. I wish and pray and meditate for positive ways to

influence the situation. My qi, when I'm right, can flow and help maybe a

couple people ata time at most. That's not enough. We need to discuss and

dialog this stuff. Here in this group, I am almost the only one who brings up

these broad topics, I know I'm a pain and I'm sorry but, that is a shame. But it

isn't a big burden on the group. I hope I don't get tossed out of the group for

not pretending everything is just peachy in the High Dollar world of for profit

healthcare.

 

< wrote:

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Chinese Medicine , mystir

<ykcul_ritsym> wrote:

> All the figures are in the documents. Please look closer, and even

try to disproove any of it.

 

(JAson) please, show me, as I showed in my last post the stats ARE NOT

there. I specifically quoted what was there and showed how it does not

match what is being said... Come on if you see just point me where,

instead of playing this game!

 

 

?It is actually worse. The figures are the absolute minimum. If the

TCM community had that percentage of error, we'd be hung by the neck

and whipped to the seventh generation.

> If doing good is a real motivation, then to help influence the

system by saving a million lives by creating awareness of lethal

problems seems worthwhile to me. I'm probably not going to accomplish

that much in my clinic in my lifespan. I don't really see many

medical people talking at all about these things.

 

 

(JAson) The original ideas and quotes are in medical journals. So I am

unclear what you are talking about

 

>And to poo-poo all the problems as just somebody's opinion without

even considering it, I feel that is unbelievably ignorant or selfish.

 

(JAson)Of course no one is poo pooing anything, My point is that

things are very overly exaggerated to prove certain points. This is

not reality. Trust me I have considered everything written here.

Show the facts and everyone will listen.

 

As far as the rest of this medical bashing (below) I won't even

comment... Yes I was there at one point, but IMO this attitude gets us

no where... I would like to remind everyone of the Neijing when Qi bo

asked huang di why we have all these 'crazy' health problems...

He says (paraphrased b/c I don't have the neijing in front of me) -

" People at one time lived at one with nature but now they have lost

their way, a sad state of affairs " - yes 2000 years ago...

 

-

 

 

This is big kid stuff. Things are moving quickly away from being able

to be solved. In time we may not even have the vocabulary for dealing

with critcism of the Market Forces.

> Would you want to eliminate the sources of cancer, or play

around trying to keep your patients alive for a couple more years, as

you see younger and younger less likely patients getting cancer or

everything else? I don't know if they lack the ability to see where

things are going, or the strength to deal with it, or don't want to

bite the hand that feeds them, or all the above. Repeating these kind

of findings doesn't make anyone wealthy or popular,( I am active in

other areas beside medicine) my son said I should let it go cause

nobody cares and wouldn't believe it, and you'll just get depressed.

That is sad. The saddest thing to me is that the healthcare people,

the ones that should see the increases in disease suffering and their

causes -don't. They can't believe it. Not because many things

aren't true, but because it threatens their professional pride, and

the comfort of some authority to proscribe treatment

protocols--whether or not they have disastrous effect down

> the road. In a poetic sense, every tear on earth is polluted,

each year more toxic with profitable industrial effluent that pools

and eats away at little bodies and nobodys' seed is spared. How can

you not care? We see the damage better than almost anyone. I wish and

pray and meditate for positive ways to influence the situation. My

qi, when I'm right, can flow and help maybe a couple people ata time

at most. That's not enough. We need to discuss and dialog this

stuff. Here in this group, I am almost the only one who brings up

these broad topics, I know I'm a pain and I'm sorry but, that is a

shame. But it isn't a big burden on the group. I hope I don't get

tossed out of the group for not pretending everything is just peachy

in the High Dollar world of for profit healthcare.

>

> wrote:

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Here's a copy of the article. I would reccomend everyone to read it, look up the

references and make your own determination of what is true.

 

You can also look up several studies in the medical journals ie; JAMA, BMJ,

Lancet and New England Journal of Medicine.

 

Below is a summary with the references to the above article " Death by Medicine "

 

This article was produced by Life Extension. I have been subscribing to this

magazine for several years and the information I read several years ago is

starting to be adopted by Western Medicine, although still slow in implementing,

 

The web site is www.lef.org

 

Brian N Hardy, DC, LAc, DACBN, CCN

 

 

OFFICE OF TECHNOLOGY ASSESSMENT (OTA)

 

Health Care Technology and Its Assessment in Eight Countries, 1995.

General Facts

In 1990, US life expectancy was 71.8 years for men and 78.8 years for women,

among the lowest rates in the developed countries.

The 1990 US infant mortality rate in the US was 9.2 per 1,000 live births, in

the bottom half of the distribution among all developed countries.

Health status is correlated with socioeconomic status.

Health care is not universal.

Health care is based on the free market system with no fixed budget or

limitations on expansion.

Health care accounts for 14% of the US GNP ($800 billion in 1993).

The federal government does no central planning, though it is the major

purchaser of health care for older people and some poor people.

Americans are less satisfied with their health care system than people in

other developed countries.

US medicine specializes in expensive medical technology; some large US cities

have more magnetic resonance image (MRI) scanners than most countries.

Huge public and private investments in medical research and pharmaceutical

development drive this “technological arms race.”

Any efforts to restrain technological developments in health care are opposed

by policymakers concerned about negative impacts on medical-technology

industries.

Hospitals

In 1990, the US had 5,480 acute-care hospitals, 880 specialty (psychiatric,

long-term care, and rehabilitation) hospitals, and 340 federal (military,

veterans, and Native American) hospitals, or 2.7 hospitals per 100,000

population.

In 1990, the average length of stay for 33 million admissions was 9.2 days.

The bed occupancy rate was 66%. Lengths of stay were shorter and admission rates

lower than other countries.

In 1990, the US had 615,000 physicians, or 2.4 per 1,000 population; 33% were

primary care (family medicine, internal medicine, and pediatrics) and 67% were

specialists.

In 1991, government-run health care spending totaled $81 billion.

Total US health care spending rose to $752 billion in 1991 from $70 billion

in 1950. Spending grew five-fold per capita.

Reasons for increased healthcare spending include:

The high cost of defensive medicine, with an escalation in services solely

to avoid malpractice litigation.

US health care based on defensive medicine costs nearly $45 billion per

year, or about 5% of total health care spending, according to one source.

The availability and use of new medical technologies have contributed the

most to increased health care spending, argue many analysts. These costs are

impossible to quantify.

 

The reasons government attempts to control health care costs have failed

include:

Market incentive and profit-motive involvement in the financing and

organization of health care, including private insurers, hospital systems,

physicians, and the drug and medical-device industries.

Expansion is the goal of free enterprise.

 

 

Health-Related Research and Development

 

The US spends more than any other country on health-related R & D.

In 1989, the federal government spent $9.2 billion on R & D, while private

industry spent an additional $9.4 billion.

Total US R & D expenditures rose 50% from 1983 to 1992.

NIH receives about half of US government R & D funding.

NIH spent more on basic research ($4.1 billion in 1989) than for clinical

trials of medical treatments on humans ($519 million in 1989).

Most of the clinical trials evaluate new treatment protocols for cancer and

complications of AIDS, and do not study existing treatments, even though their

effectiveness is in many cases unknown and questionable.

In 1990, the NIH had just begun to do meta-analysis and cost-effectiveness

analysis.

Pharmaceutical and Medical-Device Industries

About two-thirds of the industry's $9.4 billion budget went to drug research;

device manufacturers spent the remaining one-third.

In addition to R & D, the medical industry spent 24% of total sales on

promoting their products and 15% of total sales on development.

Total marketing expenses in 1990 were over $5 billion.

Many products provide no benefit over existing products.

Public and private health care consumers buy these products.

If health care spending is perceived as a problem, a highly profitable drug

industry exacerbates the problem.

Controlling Health Care Technology

The FDA ensures the safety and efficacy of drugs, biologics, and medical

devices.

The FDA does not consider costs of therapy.

The FDA does not consider the effectiveness of a therapy.

The FDA does not compare a product to currently marketed products

The FDA does not consider nondrug alternatives for a given clinical problem.

It costs $200 million in development costs to bring a new drug to market.

AIDS-drug interest groups forced new regulations that speed up the approval

process.

Such drugs should be subject to greater post-marketing surveillance

requirements. As of 1995, these provisions had not yet come into play.

Many argue that reductions in the pre-approval testing of drugs open the

possibility of significant undiscovered toxicities.

Health Care Technology Assessment

Failure to evaluate technology was a focus of a 1978 report from OTA with

examples of many common medical practices supported by limited published data

(10-20%).

In 1978, Congress created the National Center for Health Care Technology

(NCHCT) to advise Medicare and Medicaid.

With an annual budget of $4 million, NCHCT published three broad assessments

of high-priority technologies and made about 75 coverage recommendations to

Medicare.

Congress disbanded NCHCT in 1981. The medical profession opposed it from the

beginning. The AMA testified before Congress in 1981 that “clinical policy

analysis and judgments are better made—and are being responsibly made—within the

medical profession. Assessing risks and costs, as well as benefits, has been

central to the exercise of good medical judgment for decades.”

The medical device lobby also opposed government oversight by NCHCT.

 

Examples of Lack of Proper Management of HealthCare

 

Treatments for Coronary Artery Disease

 

Since the early 1970s, the number of coronary artery bypass surgeries (CABGS)

has risen rapidly without government regulation or clinical trials.

Angioplasty for single vessel disease was introduced in 1978. The first

published trial of angioplasty versus medical treatment was done in 1992.

Angioplasty did not reduce the number of CABGS, as was promoted.

Both procedures increase in number every year as the patient population grows

older and sicker.

Rates of use are higher in white patients and private insurance patients, and

vary greatly by geographic region, suggesting that use of these procedures is

based on non-clinical factors.

As of 1995, the NIH consensus program had not assessed CABGS since 1980 and

had never assessed angioplasty.

RAND researchers evaluated CABGS in New York in 1990. They reviewed 1,300

procedures and found 2% were inappropriate, 90% were appropriate, and 7% were

uncertain. For 1,300 angioplasties, 4% were inappropriate and 38% uncertain.

Using RAND methodologies, a panel of British physicians rated twice as many

procedures “inappropriate” as did a US panel rating the same clinical cases. The

New York numbers are in question because New York State limits the number of

surgery centers, and the per-capita supply of cardiac surgeons in New York is

about one-half of the national average.

The estimated five-year cost is $33,000 for angioplasty and $40,000 for

CABGS. Angioplasty did not lower costs, due to its high failure rates.

Computed Tomography (CT)

The first CT scanner in the US was installed at the Mayo Clinic in 1973. By

1992, the number of operational CT scanners in the US had grown to 6,060. By

comparison, in 1993 there were 216 CT units in Canada .

There is little information available on how CT scans improve or affect

patient outcomes

In some institutions, up to 90% of scans performed were negative.

Approval by the FDA was not required for CT scanners, nor was any evidence of

safety or efficacy.

Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI)

MRIs were introduced in Great Britain in 1978 and in the US in 1980. By 1988,

there were 1,230 units and by 1992 between 2,800 and 3,000.

A definitive review published in 1994 found less than 30 studies of 5,000

that were prospective comparisons of diagnostic accuracy or therapeutic choice.

The American College of Physicians assessed MRI studies and rated 13 of 17

trials as “weak,” i.e., lacking data concerning therapeutic impact or patient

outcomes.

The OTA concluded: “It is evident that hospitals, physician-entrepreneurs,

and medical device manufacturers have approached MRI and CT as commodities with

high-profit potential, and decision-making on the acquisition and use of these

procedures has been highly influenced by this approach. Clinical evaluation,

appropriate patient selection, and matching supply to legitimate demand might be

viewed as secondary forces.”

Laparoscopic Surgery

Laparoscopic cholecystectomy was introduced at a professional surgical

society meeting in late 1989. By 1992, 85% of all cholecystectomies were

performed laparoscopically.

There was an associated increase of 30% in the number of cholecystectomies

performed.

Because of the increased volume of gall bladder operations, their total cost

increased 11.4% between 1988 and 1992, despite a 25.1% drop in the average cost

per surgery.

The mortality rate for gall bladder surgeries did not decline as a result of

the lower risk because so many more were performed.

When studies were finally done on completed cases, the results showed that

laparoscopic cholecystectomy was associated with reduced inpatient duration,

decreased pain, and a shorter period of restricted activity. But rates of bile

duct and major vessel injury increased and it was suggested that these rates

were worse for people with acute cholecystitis. No clinical trials had been done

to clarify this issue.

Patient demand, fueled by substantial media attention, was a major force in

promoting rapid adoption of these procedures.

The major manufacturer of laparoscopic equipment produced the video that

introduced the procedure in 1989.

Doctors were given two-day training seminars before performing the surgery on

patients.

Infant Mortality

In 1990, the US ranked 24th in infant mortality of 38 developed countries

with a rate of 9.2 deaths per 1,000 live births.

US black infant mortality is 18.6 per 1,000 live births, compared to 8.8 for

whites.

Screening for Breast Cancer

Mammography screening in women under 50 has always been a subject of debate.

In 1992, the Canadian National Breast Cancer Study of 50,000 women showed

that mammography had no effect on mortality for women aged 40-50.

The National Cancer Institute (NCI) refused to change its recommendations on

mammography.

The American Cancer Society decided to wait for more studies on mammography.

In December 1993, NCI announced that women over 50 should have routine

screenings every one to two years but that younger women would derive no benefit

from mammography.

Summary

The OTA concluded: “There are no mechanisms in place to limit dissemination

of technologies regardless of their clinical value.”

Shortly after the release of this report, the OTA was disbanded.

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9;362(9382):419-27.

 

 

 

< wrote:

Chinese Medicine , mystir

<ykcul_ritsym> wrote:

> All the figures are in the documents. Please look closer, and even

try to disproove any of it.

 

(JAson) please, show me, as I showed in my last post the stats ARE NOT

there. I specifically quoted what was there and showed how it does not

match what is being said... Come on if you see just point me where,

instead of playing this game!

 

 

?It is actually worse. The figures are the absolute minimum. If the

TCM community had that percentage of error, we'd be hung by the neck

and whipped to the seventh generation.

> If doing good is a real motivation, then to help influence the

system by saving a million lives by creating awareness of lethal

problems seems worthwhile to me. I'm probably not going to accomplish

that much in my clinic in my lifespan. I don't really see many

medical people talking at all about these things.

 

 

(JAson) The original ideas and quotes are in medical journals. So I am

unclear what you are talking about

 

>And to poo-poo all the problems as just somebody's opinion without

even considering it, I feel that is unbelievably ignorant or selfish.

 

(JAson)Of course no one is poo pooing anything, My point is that

things are very overly exaggerated to prove certain points. This is

not reality. Trust me I have considered everything written here.

Show the facts and everyone will listen.

 

As far as the rest of this medical bashing (below) I won't even

comment... Yes I was there at one point, but IMO this attitude gets us

no where... I would like to remind everyone of the Neijing when Qi bo

asked huang di why we have all these 'crazy' health problems...

He says (paraphrased b/c I don't have the neijing in front of me) -

" People at one time lived at one with nature but now they have lost

their way, a sad state of affairs " - yes 2000 years ago...

 

-

 

 

This is big kid stuff. Things are moving quickly away from being able

to be solved. In time we may not even have the vocabulary for dealing

with critcism of the Market Forces.

> Would you want to eliminate the sources of cancer, or play

around trying to keep your patients alive for a couple more years, as

you see younger and younger less likely patients getting cancer or

everything else? I don't know if they lack the ability to see where

things are going, or the strength to deal with it, or don't want to

bite the hand that feeds them, or all the above. Repeating these kind

of findings doesn't make anyone wealthy or popular,( I am active in

other areas beside medicine) my son said I should let it go cause

nobody cares and wouldn't believe it, and you'll just get depressed.

That is sad. The saddest thing to me is that the healthcare people,

the ones that should see the increases in disease suffering and their

causes -don't. They can't believe it. Not because many things

aren't true, but because it threatens their professional pride, and

the comfort of some authority to proscribe treatment

protocols--whether or not they have disastrous effect down

> the road. In a poetic sense, every tear on earth is polluted,

each year more toxic with profitable industrial effluent that pools

and eats away at little bodies and nobodys' seed is spared. How can

you not care? We see the damage better than almost anyone. I wish and

pray and meditate for positive ways to influence the situation. My

qi, when I'm right, can flow and help maybe a couple people ata time

at most. That's not enough. We need to discuss and dialog this

stuff. Here in this group, I am almost the only one who brings up

these broad topics, I know I'm a pain and I'm sorry but, that is a

shame. But it isn't a big burden on the group. I hope I don't get

tossed out of the group for not pretending everything is just peachy

in the High Dollar world of for profit healthcare.

>

> wrote:

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Chinese Medicine , Brian Hardy

<mischievous00> wrote:

> Here's a copy of the article. I would reccomend everyone to read it,

look up the references and make your own determination of what is true.

>

> You can also look up several studies in the medical journals ie;

JAMA, BMJ, Lancet and New England Journal of Medicine.

>

> Below is a summary with the references to the above article " Death

by Medicine "

>

> This article was produced by Life Extension. I have been subscribing

to this magazine for several years and the information I read several

years ago is starting to be adopted by Western Medicine, although

still slow in implementing,

 

1) This is one of the most poorly referenced articles I have ever

seen. Any real journal article would have ever stat referenced so

that you can look anything up and where it came from. This does not

have this! This is useless.

2) This article has nothing to do with the previous discussed articles

or statistics. What kind of smoke screen are you releasing?

3) You say look in JAMA etc.. are you off your rocker? JAMA does not

support what you say or for that matter any mainstream medical journal

that I have seen, please once agian show me where.

4) the Death by medicine stat was checked (read my previous email) and

it was no where to be found. This type of information is why

mainstream people and MD's laugh at much of alterative medicine.

 

 

This is my last response unless you or someone can actually supply

something that has substantial facts to prove the original statement

(where this thread came from), which I will remind everyone of that

" iatrogenic deaths shown in the following table is 783,936. " " Or that

it is the #1 killer in the US " . My silence should not be taken of

acceptance of your smokescreen. But, I welcome anything that has a

valid source…

 

In summary, Your life extension file is completely useless from any

real academic validity, and does not support the stat in question. I

am very disappointed in the lack of rigor in this conversation.

 

-

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Hi Mystir!

 

I think it has something to do with the broad problem being too big for

anyone to tackle. Pick a smaller part of it that you can *effectively*

handle and do just that. Surely your objective is not to be " a pain " , as

you put it.

 

At 07:38 PM 7/6/2004, you wrote:<snip>

I am almost the only one who brings up these broad topics, I know I'm a

pain and I'm sorry but, that is a shame. But it isn't a big burden on the

group. I hope I don't get tossed out of the group for not pretending

everything is just peachy in the High Dollar world of for profit healthcare.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

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Pete Theisen <petet wrote:

>Hi Hi Mystir!

>I think it has something to do with the broad problem >being too big for anyone

to tackle. Pick a smaller part >of it that you can *effectively* handle and do

just >that. Surely your objective is not to be " a pain " , as

>you put it.

 

Hi Pete. Thanks, that was kindly spoken. I am working on a series of questions

for Z'ev about the yin huo and heart and emotions and the Treatise on Stomach

and Spleen and the Nourish the middle school, which I've gotten re-energized

about from his post. Just his little synopsis clarified a lot from the treatise

which I had a hardtime penetrating 12 years ago, and instigated a cascade of

wonder about how the shen and body actually work in its multiple energies and

substances. But I want to first think thru my impressions as best I can before

wasting his time and making him do the reading thinking and reflecting for me.

He seems like a nice guy. In a stable world, this is the stuff I would pursue

primarily. I've put a backpack on and went to study with people for exchange of

labor in the Mythical Past of youth, and will again when my circumstances are

self supporting. There is much to do for now. I suppose in an ultimate sense,

there really isn't anything to do about anything, but

I'm hooked on the game.

 

I am trying ways to be effective in broad and narrow areas. To me, it seems

there is an unavoidable junction of critical consequence to life support systems

and their freedoms that will have to be dealt with by the global family of

humans in the very near future, of which medical freedom and nutritional access

will be one important part. I respect the intelligence and broad vision and

openmindedness of these groups and your minds are/can/should be another

important part of the future solutions, so more useful awareness is better.

Sanitation, nutrition, and stressreduction to you and yours, Respectfully

submitted.

 

 

 

 

 

New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages!

 

 

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Chinese Medicine , mystir

<ykcul_ritsym> wrote:

>

>

> Pete Theisen <petet@a...> wrote:

> >Hi Hi Mystir!

> >I think it has something to do with the broad problem >being too

big for anyone to tackle. Pick a smaller part >of it that you can

*effectively* handle and do just >that. Surely your objective is not

to be " a pain " , as

> >you put it.

>

> Hi Pete. Thanks, that was kindly spoken. I am working on a series of

questions for Z'ev about the yin huo and heart and emotions and the

Treatise on Stomach and Spleen and the Nourish the middle school,

which I've gotten re-energized about from his post.

 

If it helps, I wrote a paper on yinfire that can be accessed at my

website: I would love to hear what you think... (just a warning the

beginning it somewhat dense)... It goes into some deep controversial

ideas...

 

http://Chinese Medicine/Articles_Pract/Yinfire%20Essay.pdf

 

-

Chinesemedicinedoc.com

 

 

Just his little synopsis clarified a lot from the treatise which I had

a hardtime penetrating 12 years ago, and instigated a cascade of

wonder about how the shen and body actually work in its multiple

energies and substances. But I want to first think thru my impressions

as best I can before wasting his time and making him do the reading

thinking and reflecting for me. He seems like a nice guy. In a

stable world, this is the stuff I would pursue primarily. I've put a

backpack on and went to study with people for exchange of labor in the

Mythical Past of youth, and will again when my circumstances are self

supporting. There is much to do for now. I suppose in an ultimate

sense, there really isn't anything to do about anything, but

> I'm hooked on the game.

>

> I am trying ways to be effective in broad and narrow areas. To me,

it seems there is an unavoidable junction of critical consequence to

life support systems and their freedoms that will have to be dealt

with by the global family of humans in the very near future, of which

medical freedom and nutritional access will be one important part. I

respect the intelligence and broad vision and openmindedness of these

groups and your minds are/can/should be another important part of the

future solutions, so more useful awareness is better. Sanitation,

nutrition, and stressreduction to you and yours, Respectfully submitted.

>

>

>

>

>

> New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages!

>

>

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Hi Mystir!

 

Another way to look at it, if you try to do too much you may end up

actually doing nothing, or nothing well.

 

At 12:04 PM 7/10/2004, you wrote:<snip>

 

>Pete Theisen <petet wrote:<snip> I am working on a series of

>questions for Z'ev <snip>

 

>I've put a backpack on and went to study with people for exchange of labor

>in the Mythical Past<snip>

>

>I am trying ways to be effective in broad and narrow areas.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

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< wrote:

---@

If it helps, I wrote a paper on yinfire that can be accessed at my

website: I would love to hear what you think... (just a warning the

beginning it somewhat dense)... It goes into some deep controversial

ideas...

 

http://Chinese Medicine/Articles_Pract/Yinfire%20Essay.pdf

 

 

Thanks much Jason, this is fascinating thought. Give me a few days to digest

this and hopefully a great thread may follow. I'm sure many people in the group

have thoughts on this, and new ground may even be gained.

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