TCM

[Guest guest]

Li Shizhi (the founding elder of Chengdu College of TCM who once prescribed Yinqiao San to Mao Zedong) - himself a TCM doctor, scholar, and administrator at the College which is generally regarded as the "most traditional" among TCM institutions in China - in which he expressed concern about my enthusiasm for traditional herbology. He flatly admonished me to curb my faith in the efficacy of Chinese medicine. Many of my more classically oriented teachers, therefore, cautiously asserted that Mao may have had good intentions at the time, but that the "integration" project marked the beginning of a process that ruined the true nature of traditional medicine.>>>>>In reading this I am wandering why such suspicion in trained TCM officials, which I have also seen in China when I was there, is so prevalent? Is it because of experience? self hate? or what

Alon

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

You've raised an interesting question. And I think

the answer is quite complicated. Aldous Huxley wrote

that " familiarity breeds discontent. " And I think

that it is a fairly common trait of highly educated

and intelligent people that they come to find the

faults and flaws in their working and living

environments.

 

It's not clear to me what the source of the quote

is to which you are responding. I never saw it

if it was a post to this list. Who is the writer?

 

I presume that it is either a Chinese student from

CDUTCM or someone who was there early enough to have

had a conversation with one of the founding elders

of the school. I never met Li Shizhi, and not knowing

the context in which the remark you cite was made,

it's hard to draw conclusions from it.

 

But in order to criticize any subject effectively

you have to know it very well. And when those involved

deeply in any pursuit get together, it's not unusual

to hear them deconstruct it energetically in order to

brings its weaknesses to view. More than self-hatred,

I would attribute this kind of talk to the natural

tendency of those who toil in a field to want to see

its weaknesses improved as well as to the communist

era emphasis placed on self-criticism.

 

Who knows, the remark below might even have been

made precisely to discourage the individual to

whom it was made. I first went to CDUTCM in 1992

and have studied with several teachers there

including some of the old timers. I've had plenty

of conversations with faculty, students, and adminstrators

in which we fairly ruthlessly attacked all different

aspects of the subject, the students, the teachers

and the teaching, the clinical realities, etc.

 

No one ever cautioned me not to have faith in

the subject. Then again, for me it's never been

a matter of faith.

 

There is a rather active school of thought in

the Chinese medical community in the PRC that

is critical to varying degrees of a range of

issues related to TCM pedagogy and the practice

of clinical medicine as well as research and development.

If you read Chinese, I've got some interesting

documents that reflect this activity.

 

As you no doubt understand from your time in

China, criticism is not dealt with there as

it is in the States and other Western cultures.

This is partly a communist value and partly

a more fundamental Chinese value. I think it's

important that you bring this up and that we

wonder about what such a statement means.

 

One of the lessons I learned in China is that

things are seldom what they seem.

 

Ken

> Li Shizhi (the founding elder of Chengdu College of TCM who once

prescribed Yinqiao San to Mao Zedong) - himself a TCM doctor,

scholar, and administrator at the College which is generally regarded

as the " most traditional " among TCM institutions in China - in which

he expressed concern about my enthusiasm for traditional herbology.

He flatly admonished me to curb my faith in the efficacy of Chinese

medicine. Many of my more classically oriented teachers, therefore,

cautiously asserted that Mao may have had good intentions at the

time, but that the " integration " project marked the beginning of a

process that ruined the true nature of traditional medicine.

> >>>>>In reading this I am wandering why such suspicion in trained

TCM officials, which I have also seen in China when I was there, is

so prevalent? Is it because of experience? self hate? or what

> Alon

[Guest guest]

On Tuesday, October 30, 2001, at 03:22 PM, yulong wrote:

 

> Alon,

>

> You've raised an interesting question. And I think

> the answer is quite complicated. Aldous Huxley wrote

> that " familiarity breeds discontent. " And I think

> that it is a fairly common trait of highly educated

> and intelligent people that they come to find the

> faults and flaws in their working and living

> environments.

>

> It's not clear to me what the source of the quote

> is to which you are responding. I never saw it

> if it was a post to this list. Who is the writer?

>

Heiner Fruehauf, in the California Journal of Oriental Medicine.

 

 

[Guest guest]

It's not clear to me what the source of the quoteis to which you are responding. I never saw itif it was a post to this list. Who is the writer?>>>This is from an article in the J of Chinese Med by heiner fruehauf. The article is about the loss of tradition in China. The question I raised is something I have straggled with allot after coming back from working in China. And is partly why I have so strongly focused on the question of true efficacy. Even some of the most strongest advocate Dr's for TCM, when their family members got truly ill, that is more than a cold or simple digestive discomfort etc., resulted to western medicine. Many of them were not strongly trained in WM and so did not have the influence of biased education. And personally this is why I worry that people sometimes sound like the view CM as a religion i.e. we just have to be more education than we will see the truth.

Alon

[Guest guest]

Dear Group,

 

There are so many misunderstood in western societies

about TCM and Asia country. Western always saw us

through frosted glass. The focus is always vague. I am

not blame about this. I wish anyone of you could cross

the culture gap and language bar

to see us more clearly.

 

About the self-weak of Mainland China¡¦s TCM medicine

officer, I might say this is kind of

inferiority.(Erickson¡¦s theory: industry VS

inferiority).

 

Chair Man Mao used locked nation policy to dominate

mainland china. During the period, medical treatment

in China were almost rely on TCM. Therefore, TCM is

the main stream medicine in Mainland during that

period, and it developed excellent well...

 

When the iron curtain opened. All of sudden, 1.WM came

in very fast and the effect is much faster then

TCM.2.All of sudden, China find out they left so much

behind in the world, This really hurt the

self-confidence and self esteem feeling deeply.

 

So, They destroy many good TCM tradition just incase

of catch up the western faster.

And, They are going to the wrong way now.

There are at lest three categories of TCM practice

type in Mainland now.

1. Pure TCM way, Which is rare day by day when the

aging TCM expert pass way.

Those treasures of experience and excellent knowledge

of TCM are all gone with them.

2. TCM mixed WM

3. WM mixed TCM

 

The most value part of TCM dying day by day, and I am

telling truth to every one of you. This is not the

arrogant of Chinese, I must say this is quite true.

 

When you insist use TCM herb in Western way (WM mixed

TCM), it means western only use the surface of TCM,

the very small part of TCM, not the whole picture of

TCM. But, The strong ruling power of WM will going to

destroy TCM in the not far future.

 

In Taiwan, We had different history of TCM medicine

policy then Mainland China. I have to say, WM ¡¥s

policy in Taiwan almost destroy. TCM, but it was never

reach the goal (benefit owner never let go the benefit

they already have, and I am sorry that I have to say

that in this way) and TCM in Taiwan growing up very

well now. If The WM policy maker in Taiwan had mercy

in TCM development, they should release the TCM

control power more in TCM approach., not in Western

approaches.

 

Because policy makes would like to follow the WM

approach incase to catch up the Western standard of

medication, They have to make choice, and this will

going to destroy TCM if every standard of TCM all

follow the WM rules.

 

Maybe we should figure out (invent new methods, more

ancient TCM approaches) new methods before turn herbal

formula drink into TCM powder or pills.

I am not against the WM scientific standard (GMP),

This is a good attitude when you face human being,

when you face lives. I mean, in my opinion, we should

figure the primary steps of herbal formula in ancient

way as best as possible, then, turn it into

Western approaches.

 

The WM ignore the primary steps of TCM and pay all

attention in second steps and third steps¡K.., I

don¡¦t think this is correct attitude when you doing

scientific research.

The wrong hypothesis will develop wrong results.

 

How to gain the correct primary steps of TCM herbs ,

turn the all mystery of TCM be more clearly is the

most important part of TCM before scientific

approached.

 

And , every expert of TCM in western have to cross the

culture gap/the difficulty reading of ancient Chinese

language, try to figure out what it was, find out the

correct explanation of TCM theory and herbal theory..

 

This is why I always insist to talk to all of you.

And TCM is not relign,it is reality,it is real.

I know.

 

Jean

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

=====

 

 

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< ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw

[Guest guest]

--- ken rose wrote:

>> I presume that it is either a Chinese student from

CDUTCM or someone who was there early enough to have

had a conversation with one of the founding elders

of the school. I never met Li Shizhi, and not knowing

the context in which the remark you cite was made,

it's hard to draw conclusions from it.<<

 

The quote actually came from Li's grandson. The

entire text of the article is at

http://www.jcm.co.uk/SampleArticles/tcmcrisis.html

 

 

 

 

=====

Robert Hayden, L.Ac.

http://jabinet.net

 

 

 

Make a great connection at Personals.

http://personals.

[Guest guest]

which the remark you cite was made,it's hard to draw conclusions from it.<<>>>>>The comment is not on the article but just on the paragraph and the fact that I have seen this as well

Alon

[Guest guest]

Robert and Emanuelle,

 

I apologize for the tone of my opening remark. The school that I

studied at required that we learn the Worsley FE system. The teacher

that I had was none other than Niel Guminick (Worsley's second hand

man). While we were in the class we had to do an intake on a patient

and analyze the patient's constitution according to Worsley's FE

system. I decided to write my paper on myself since I was having a

hard time determining my constitution. My final line was....

 

" I can not determine the constitution of the patient " .

 

Niel's response was that the patient was possessed. (Remember, this

is me... the patient.) So in class I asked him to describe

possession to me. I asked him what was doing the possessing, how you

know when someone is possessed....etc.

 

Niel said that he did not have a clear idea of what possession meant

and he could not answer any of my other questions.

 

At the end of that class there were 53 very unhappy students. And

since the school continues to make that class part of the ciriculum

there have been many many other students who have to sit through an

entire quarter of a system of medicine that they can not combine

with the information they learn.

 

I understand the fault lies with the school, but to my knowledge the

idea of possession, regardless of its roots, is not properly

understood by even by the higher ups in the Worsley program. As Tami

seems to indicate when she writes " ....the issue of possession. It

seems that every professor that lectured on this subject had a

different BELIEF (emphasis mine) about it. "

 

My point was that in America, (and I understand that the European's

are way ahead of us here,) in order to be accepted as a serious

medicine we need to get our terminology straight.

 

Robert wrote, " I somehow find it hard to believe that anyone would

think 5E practitioners think they're practicing TCM. "

 

I am not concerned with what the practitioners think they are

practicing, I am concerned with what the public thinks they are

being treated with.

 

I am going to be working with MDs at one of the UCLA satelite

clinics. I also attended an integrative medicine seminar held at

UCLA. That, my friends, is the future of our medicine. We are going

to be working with doctors who will care very much about what is or

is not considered TCM. The legislature will also care very much

about what is or is not TCM. If you are sued by a patient, YOU will

also care very much about what is or is not TCM. (Ask Bob Flaws. He

found out the hard way.) As the medical schools begin to educate

their residence about CAM therapies, doctors are going to be looking

to us for information.

 

Robert wrote, " On the other hand, after a decade of involvement in

the profession, I am convinced that the public basically doesn't

care much about our intramural squabbles and term sets and

hairsplitting. "

 

I believe we have an obligation to the public to educate them about

our profession. If you want a patient to begin to eat foods that are

good for them, how are you going to explain why rice is better for

their digestive problem than wheat, if you don't explain the

principles of the medicine.

 

If we don't educate the public, we leave them reliant on us to treat

them and to prevent their diseases instead of empowering them to do

it for themselves.

 

Thank you for pointing out the flaws with my earlier comments. After

I reread it I realized how it sounded and I really do apologize.

 

Peace,

Naomi

[Guest guest]

No Yuk Ming. It's not me, although I did almost come to Toronto to see

you when you were there. Was the info I sent you adequate for your

book? Did you find the Latin for the food items?

 

Anne Biris

 

Sent from my iPhone

 

On Nov 11, 2009, at 8:03 AM, " Yuk Ming " <sxm2649 wrote:

 

> I seldom frequent bookstores (especially those selling mainlhy

> English books. Therefore, i can not be of much help in this regard.

> However, if you are a tcm practitioner, I am more than happy to host

> you and meet you for sharing experiences, provided you have time and

> also enjoy that. Send your details to me and I will respond

> promptly. (You are not anne, aren't you)

>

> Sung,Yuk-ming

> (852) 9530 9007

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Anne,

 

Thanks a lot. They are exactly what I need. What a shame we could not meet and

learn from each other. TCM is all about lineage and I learn a lot just by paying

visits to my mentor and other professors places. As Zhang, Chong-jing says,

learn the teachings from our ancients industriously and collect and make use of

other's formulas extensively.

 

A good example is I recently have frequent body massage in Shenzhen (across the

border) and learnt valuable knowledge from my masseurs. They include anti-aging

tips to acu points to treat coughing.

 

Sung, Yuk-ming