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i think i'm sympathetic to your points here phil - i'm just curious as to what

you're calling 'evil' though ?

if there is that which is greater than our earthly selves, i believe that it is

something which is greater than any concept we may have about 'good' and 'evil'.

i believe that, by definition, it is something which embraces both - otherwise

there is that which lies outside of it. To suggest that is to put limits on the

truth.....it is to divide the world in 2.

to keep this relevant to acupuncture, maybe you know of the treatment protocol

for possession. it is a set of 7 points needled to 'release dragons'. The

dragons are seen as the good guys who one summons with the needles. once

released they go about their job dealing with whatever is possessing the patient

- be that a haunting memory of a past traumatic event, an obsession about

something or someone, voices in ones mind, an outside influence... or whatever.

this idea of expelling 'evil' influences goes way back to taoist and buddhist

healing traditions. 'expelling' is really only a lay understanding of what is

seen to be taking place. if you look into the spiritual teachings on this what

you find is emphasis on 'conversion' rather than 'expulsion'. in other words

nothing is 'cast out of eden' so to speak, because it's evil. what it needs is a

friendly dragon (which in taoist tradition are usually protectors of the truth)

to point it back to the truth of unity - of all things being embraced within the

truth - 'good' and 'evil' alike.

in that manner, the bit of us that has gone awry is thereby 'converted' back to

a sense of completeness and unity. i put it like this because it is evident to

me that confusion only arises, bad things are only done, when we forget that we

are, from the first, perfect and complete. after all, i only go about stealing

things from other people when i feel like there's something i don't have. when i

know deeply that, in the big picture, i have absolutely everything i need for

this adventure called life, that i lack for nothing, that there is nothing

within me that needs to be cast out, nothing from the ouside that needs to be

imported, why on earth would the idea of stealing something arise ???

i think this is what you are saying when you write " If one chooses to live

an evil life, one chooses to turn away from good/God. "

when i know deeply that i am equal and one with all things, a profound peace

settles inside....and within that peace, there is neither absence nor presence

of good and evil.

To return to the possession protocol - goodness knows how it really works - but

my sense is that what goes on whilst the needles are in is that they somehow

give the patient an opportunity to reconnect with that place within themselves

that knows and understands on some level their 'oneness with all things',

however they come to experience or describe it. and when that opportunity

presents itself, all of those bits of us that are getting in the way - in this

case the 'possessors' - kind of get dragged out into the light..........not so

much expelled as reassured that they too have a place within the scheme of

things....they just need to not turn away from that truth.

for your interest, there are 2 possession protocols. one is to release 'internal

dragons' - to deal with possessions arising from internal influences. these

points are Ren 15 (actually the command point 1/4 cun below Ren 15), St25, St32,

St41.

'External dragons' are Du 20, Du11, Bl 23, Bl61.

if the patient is ready for this, reactions during treatment can often be

dramatic.

jason

 

 

 

 

 

 

========================================

Message date : Jun 26 2004, 08:53 PM

From : " "

To : Chinese Medicine

Copy to :

Subject : Hearsay?

Hi Holmes & All,

 

I wrote: > But the Spirit lives on and the Spirit in severe pain (in self-

chosen isolation from its Creator) is a terrible concept.

 

Holmes replied: > Hearsay?

 

(a) (that the Spirit lives on): Those who do not believe, or know this

from personal experience call this hearsay, superstition,

hallucination or nonesense. I do not.

 

I, and many of my family and friends, have had many personal

experiences that leave confirm the reality of Spirit independent of

the body to me/us. But I cannot prove this to one who may not be

receptive to the idea.

 

(b) (that the Spirit in severe pain (in self-chosen isolation from its

Creator) is a terrible concept ...): Many religions, especially the

Christian religions, believe in good and evil, personified in God and

the Devil.

 

Human beings, unless out of control because of psychiatric

conditions, are responsible for their actions. If one chooses to live

an evil life, one chooses to turn away from good/God. That choice

has consequences in the next life. Those who do not believe in a

next life call this hearsay, superstition, hallucination or nonesense.

I do not.

 

I believe in (and have had some personal experiences with) Spirit

(human Soul). If human Soul can exist before and after earthly life, I

find it logical to believe in a higher level of Soul (God/Devil,

Angels/Demidevils, etc.

 

But belief and science have a great gulf between them. I know that.

No microscope, telescope or scanner has yet seen anything but

natural phenomena. Supernatural, by definition, is beyond the

realm of the natural.

Best regards,

 

Email:

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "

 

 

Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam

messages,flame another member or swear.

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

delivered.

 

 

 

 

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Preamble:

To believe in something by hearsay, is to invite chaos into the system.

the buddha said : don't believe something because i tell you it is true - try it

for yourself and make your own mind up.

 

Questions:

Answer : the buddha said : imagine a man shot down with an arrow. unless he

seeks medical attention he will surely die. should he pause to ask

- who shot this arrow

-from whence did it come

-what kind of wood is the shaft made of

-is there poison on the tip or not

-how deeply is the arrow bedded

-etc etc etc

in deliberating these questions the man will die. surely the wise man pulls out

the arrow first and asks questions later.

the dragons protocol can be very effective

i do however think the questions you raise are pertinent and have wondered

myself just where they come from and on what authorty. i will do some research

and report back.

preamble :

and i wonder, even if worsley just made this up (which i very much doubt ) would

it make it any less valuable as an effective treatment? is something which is

old and 'classic' necessarily better? Everything starts off as new sometime.

jason

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