RE: Acupuncture for side effects of statins

[Guest guest]

If your patient insists on taking statins when he clearly has side effects,

then I recommend he takes a Co-Enzyme Q10 supplement daily as statins do

deplete this. There is some evidence to suggest that statins contribute to

chronic heart failure. Statins also have a detrimental effect on the liver

and the symptoms you describe could be related to liver/Gb syndromes, so I

would look there to help with side effects. Points such as GB34, Liv 8, Liv

3.

regards

Susie

> Message: 8

> Sat, 26 Jun 2004 13:51:42 +0000

> " Stephen Lamade " <lhommedieu

> Acupuncture for side effects of statins.

>

> Does anyone have any advice? I have a patient who is experiencing the

> following side-effects from taking statins to lower hereditiary high

> cholesterol: mild buring sensation in the soles of both feet,

> intermittent

> mild pain in his ankles and knees, and some mild muscle cramping.

>

> He is willing to try herbal treatments in the future but wants to see how

> effective the statin (Crestor) can be before he switches over to an

> alternative method. In the meantime, he would like some relief from the

> side-effects.

>

> Best,

>

> Steve

[Guest guest]

In addition to the CoQ10 at a dosage of 200-300 mg per day, I would suggest

that he lower his dosage of the statin because those sx are suggestive of

rhabdomyalgia, which is a common side effect. He should also have his liver

enzymes tested to make sure that there is no liver damage.

 

I would also look into using red rice yeast as an alternative to the statin

medication. It is very effective in lowering cholesterol. It also is a

statin, albeit in a natural form, so he could experience side effects and his

doctor

should know that he is switching. I use it commonly with my patients and

have seen overall cholesterol drops from 320's to 180, and LDL drops from 150's

to 110 or lower. I personally use it and dropped from 216 to 148 within six

months at one capsule every other day. I use a product from BioEssence in

Northern California and it is standardized well and well tolerated.

 

I also have my patients take Milk Thistle which is a liver protectant every

night when they are on a staqtin or red rice yeast. If there are Yin Xu signs,

I give them Ecliptex from Health Concerns which has Milk Thistle as well as

yin tonics. Sounds like that might be happening with your patient.

 

Lisa Walker

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Susie,

Does red rice yeast has the same effect as statins? I am taken red rice

yeast with hawthorn and Co-Enzyme Q10 (all in capsule form) since a year ago. I

had noticed that my lips had become purple in color, However my tongue is ok.

Does any one knows if there is red rice yeast side effect?

 

My mother has been taken the same capsule for one year but died of heart attack

two months after she stopped taken red rice yeast.

 

Your reply will be appreciated

 

Thanks

Silvia Tawse

Medical Herbalist

 

Quoting Susie Parkinson <susie:

 

> If your patient insists on taking statins when he clearly has side

> effects,

> then I recommend he takes a Co-Enzyme Q10 supplement daily as statins

> do

> deplete this. There is some evidence to suggest that statins contribute

> to

> chronic heart failure. Statins also have a detrimental effect on the

> liver

> and the symptoms you describe could be related to liver/Gb syndromes, so

> I

> would look there to help with side effects. Points such as GB34, Liv 8,

> Liv

> 3.

> regards

> Susie

> > Message: 8

> > Sat, 26 Jun 2004 13:51:42 +0000

> > " Stephen Lamade " <lhommedieu

> > Acupuncture for side effects of statins.

> >

> > Does anyone have any advice? I have a patient who is experiencing

> the

> > following side-effects from taking statins to lower hereditiary high

> > cholesterol: mild buring sensation in the soles of both feet,

> > intermittent

> > mild pain in his ankles and knees, and some mild muscle cramping.

> >

> > He is willing to try herbal treatments in the future but wants to see

> how

> > effective the statin (Crestor) can be before he switches over to an

> > alternative method. In the meantime, he would like some relief from

> the

> > side-effects.

> >

> > Best,

> >

> > Steve

[Guest guest]

Red rice yeast IS a statin, so it can have the same side effects, though

since it is supplied in a natural form, ie the active ingrediernts have not been

isolated out of the natural product, the side effects are minimal. In

sensitive people, though, they can develop the same side effects. In the

majority of

people, and in China for thousands of years, it is safe and effective. It is

Hong Chu, a food product in China.

 

Lisa Walker

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> Thanks

> Silvia Tawse

> Medical Herbalist

 

S,

 

Just curious what a medical herbalist is?

 

-

[Guest guest]

Gabriele,

Thank you. I think that would be a useful resource.

Ann

 

 

If you wish, and if Attilio permits it, I can send to the

list a large amounts of abstracts comcerning Policosanols.

Best regards, , Bologna-Italy

[Guest guest]

Point of order. Clarification. Red yeasted rice is the cheap source material

for the original research that Merck sponsored at UCLA Medical School in which

statins were characterized. Statins are individual molecules with

pharmacological effects ... and also pharmacological side-effects. Red yeasted

rice is quite weak and not a good treatment for lowering cholesterol ... nor is

it likely to have any major side effects as any given molecule is quite dilute

in concentration. Hospital #1 in Shanghai has in recent years used a formula

utilizing the following herbs: Shan Zha, Jue Ming Zi, He Shou Wu, Tian Qi, Hu

Zhang, Jiao Gu Lan, and Lai Fu Zi. This lowers cholesterol as well or better

than statins with no observable side effects.

 

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

 

-

lucy2x

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, June 30, 2004 5:17 PM

Re: RE: Acupuncture for side effects of statins

 

Red rice yeast IS a statin, so it can have the same side effects, though since

it is supplied in a natural form, ie the active ingrediernts have not been

isolated out of the natural product, the side effects are minimal. In sensitive

people, though, they can develop the same side effects. In the majority of

people, and in China for thousands of years, it is safe and effective. It is

Hong Chu, a food product in China.

 

Lisa Walker

[Guest guest]

I am glad you made this point, Emmanuel. If we are going to use

Chinese medicinals as 'natural' substitutes for pharmaceuticals, we are

going to lose in comparison, both p.r. wise and clinically. The

practice of Chinese internal/herbal medicine is based on prescriptions,

combinations of medicinals that work together to treat patterns, not

isolated symptoms or diseases per se.

 

 

On Jul 1, 2004, at 2:05 PM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote:

 

> Point of order. Clarification. Red yeasted rice is the cheap source

> material for the original research that Merck sponsored at UCLA

> Medical School in which statins were characterized. Statins are

> individual molecules with pharmacological effects ... and also

> pharmacological side-effects. Red yeasted rice is quite weak and not

> a good treatment for lowering cholesterol ... nor is it likely to have

> any major side effects as any given molecule is quite dilute in

> concentration. Hospital #1 in Shanghai has in recent years used a

> formula utilizing the following herbs: Shan Zha, Jue Ming Zi, He Shou

> Wu, Tian Qi, Hu Zhang, Jiao Gu Lan, and Lai Fu Zi. This lowers

> cholesterol as well or better than statins with no observable side

> effects.

>

> Respectfully,

> Emmanuel Segmen

>

> -

> lucy2x

> Chinese Medicine

> Wednesday, June 30, 2004 5:17 PM

> Re: RE: Acupuncture for side effects of statins

>

> Red rice yeast IS a statin, so it can have the same side effects,

> though since it is supplied in a natural form, ie the active

> ingrediernts have not been isolated out of the natural product, the

> side effects are minimal. In sensitive people, though, they can

> develop the same side effects. In the majority of people, and in

> China for thousands of years, it is safe and effective. It is Hong

> Chu, a food product in China.

>

> Lisa Walker

>

>

>

>

> Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear,

> religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear.

>

>

> http://babel.altavista.com/

>

>

> and

> adjust accordingly.

>

> If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

> delivered.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jason,

I do call myself medical Herbalist as I have a Bsc(Hons)degree in

Herbal Medicine. Hopefully, after regulation for Western Herbalist in the U.K.

this title could be better known.

 

Kind Regards

 

Silvia Tawse

Medical Herbalist

Croydon-UK

Quoting <:

 

>

> > Thanks

> > Silvia Tawse

> > Medical Herbalist

>

> S,

>

> Just curious what a medical herbalist is?

>

> -

[Guest guest]

Hi Lisa,

Thank you for your reply. I have told by a Consultant that when someone

takes statin it must be for life because if that person stops taken it

cholesterol level increases. I was wondering if the same happens with red rice

yeast. I started to wean it off. Now I am taken every other day.

 

Kind regards

Silvia

 

Quoting lucy2x:

 

> Red rice yeast IS a statin, so it can have the same side effects, though

>

> since it is supplied in a natural form, ie the active ingrediernts have

> not been

> isolated out of the natural product, the side effects are minimal. In

> sensitive people, though, they can develop the same side effects. In

> the majority of

> people, and in China for thousands of years, it is safe and effective.

> It is

> Hong Chu, a food product in China.

>

> Lisa Walker

[Guest guest]

In addition to taking statins for lowering cholesterol, there must also be

behavior modification, dietary changes. If a patient continues to eat a poor

diet without exercise, stopping the statin or red rice yeast will probably

allow an increase in cholesterol. If the person has a genetic predisposition

towards high cholesterol, they will probably have to take it long term. My

cholesterol is 148, down from 206 and I take one every other day, and eat a

healthy

low fat diet. I also take fish oil, CoQ10 and other supplements. I choose to

lower my risk. I've tried herbal formulas for cholesterol (pollilipids--a

study by the AMA showed that it could raise LDL levels and it wasn't effective

for me), (Cholisma by Evergreen which did not work for me) and ShanZha, Jue

Ming Zi, Dan Shen, Ju Hua formula for 6 months which did not lower my

choesterol.

I've had a heart attack so I tend to lower risk as much as possible. My

patients have done very well on red rice yeast. I have about 15 people on it

now, the longest for 2 years and there have been no side effects, even in

patients who had side effects from statins. We start on a low dose of 1 per day

and

go from there. Also, I always have them get a baseline cholesterol and liver

panel before they start the RRY and then recheck at 3 and 6 months.

 

Lisa Walker

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I beg to differ Emmanuel--Red rice yeast does lower cholesterol and is a

Chinese herb--its effects can be as dramatic as Lipijtor or Mevacor with fewer

side effects.

 

Lisa

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

There have been indications that excess carbs are often one of the cause

of high cholesterol. Check your carb intake and that of your patients. For a

good number of people lowering carbs, is the key.

 

Chris

 

 

 

In a message dated 7/2/2004 5:53:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lucy2x

writes:

In addition to taking statins for lowering cholesterol, there must also be

behavior modification, dietary changes. If a patient continues to eat a poor

diet without exercise, stopping the statin or red rice yeast will probably

allow an increase in cholesterol. If the person has a genetic predisposition

towards high cholesterol, they will probably have to take it long term. My

cholesterol is 148, down from 206 and I take one every other day, and eat a

healthy

low fat diet. I also take fish oil, CoQ10 and other supplements. I choose

to

lower my risk. I've tried herbal formulas for cholesterol (pollilipids--a

study by the AMA showed that it could raise LDL levels and it wasn't

effective

for me), (Cholisma by Evergreen which did not work for me) and ShanZha, Jue

Ming Zi, Dan Shen, Ju Hua formula for 6 months which did not lower my

choesterol.

I've had a heart attack so I tend to lower risk as much as possible. My

patients have done very well on red rice yeast. I have about 15 people on it

now, the longest for 2 years and there have been no side effects, even in

patients who had side effects from statins. We start on a low dose of 1 per

day and

go from there. Also, I always have them get a baseline cholesterol and liver

panel before they start the RRY and then recheck at 3 and 6 months.

 

Lisa Walker

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Lisa,

 

Feel free to differ with my reporting. I feel no offense though I don't see

your comments as differing. Merck made their choice for a reason that you are

utilizing. My commentary is that Merck sponsored researchers were following a

trail of clinically effective protocols and chose to locate a single Chinese

herb as a source material to derive a single molecule. They decided it would

have made no sense to look at the highly complex mix of molecules in a formula.

Clinicians in Shanghai, including Dr. Kang, wonder why people use Hong Qu (red

yeasted rice) instead of the clinically proven formula. I'm just a messenger of

this information and am glad to hear of your clinical as well as personal

success. Thank you for expanding the base of information. Since red yeasted rice

generally sells for less than $2 per pound, what a great deal it is for those

who obtain benefit.

 

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

I beg to differ Emmanuel--Red rice yeast does lower cholesterol and is a

Chinese herb--its effects can be as dramatic as Lipijtor or Mevacor with fewer

side effects.

 

Lisa

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , STawse@c... wrote:

> Hi Jason,

> I do call myself medical Herbalist as I have a

Bsc(Hons)degree in

> Herbal Medicine. Hopefully, after regulation for Western Herbalist

in the U.K.

> this title could be better known.

 

Thank you for the information, I wish the US had more regulations in

regard to herbs...

 

-Jason

 

 

>

> Kind Regards

>

> Silvia Tawse

> Medical Herbalist

> Croydon-UK

> Quoting :

>

> >

> > > Thanks

> > > Silvia Tawse

> > > Medical Herbalist

> >

> > S,

> >

> > Just curious what a medical herbalist is?

> >

> > -

[Guest guest]

Chris (and Lisa),

 

I view your comments as correct. I now teach this part of my physiology course

regarding pathologies of diabetes with a 2002 review paper. The paper

unequivocally concludes that the pathologies and rapid aging processes of

diabetics (both I and II) are a result of hyperglycemia. Results of

hyperglycemia include AGEs (advance glycosylation end products) which solidify

as plaques (using cholesterol carriers). Another intriguing consequence is

activation of complement proteins resulting in membrane attach complexes.

Pretty nasty stuff that ultimately destroys peripheral vessels.

 

One caveat. I don't as a nutritionist approve of the current fads in low carb

diets. The real and appropriate idea is to avoid hyperglycemia, keep the

cholesterol low and increase soluble/insoluble fiber. This is achieved by high

carb diets that employ complex carbohydrates (think cooked vegies and fresh

fruit) and avoiding refined carbohydrates (think flour, refined sugars) and

avoid heavy reliance on animal products for nutrients (no complex carbs -

fiber). I can go into the G.I. biochemistry that brings about spikes in blood

glucose from delivering foods made from flour and all of the benefits of fiber,

but that would be boring. I do make my students work hard to see clearly the

flaws in the Atkins diet. While the Dr. Dean Ornish diet at first seems as

commercially faddish, it's being promoted at University of California San

Francisco and other centers to obtain Medicare funding. Ornish's diet does

follow correctly nutritional protocols and has a vast supportive literature that

shows its efficacy. Ornish is trying with other enlightened clinicians to seek

third party payments from private and public sources for lifestyle changes

including adjustments to diet and exercise. As a clinician you get paid by

insurance and Medicare to guide your patients with regard to lifestyle changes.

This is a pretty radical idea in today's healthcare system that I find

profoundly inspiring. Pardon my three cheers for Ornish. This strongly

supports Lisa's observations below as well.

 

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

 

There have been indications that excess carbs are often one of the cause

of high cholesterol. Check your carb intake and that of your patients. For a

good number of people lowering carbs, is the key.

 

Chris

[Guest guest]

Hi Lisa,

People at risk from heart attack not only have high LDL but also high

Apolipoprotein B(ApoB).

 

I have now my cholesterol level normal but my Apo B is 0.94 g/L. Normal level

is from 0.49 to 1.03 g/L.

 

What are the herbs that you are using for the liver?

 

All the best

 

Silvia Tawse

Medical Herbalist

Croydon-UK

P.S. Does anyone has a second hand Bensky Materia Medica for sale?

[Guest guest]

I have now my cholesterol level normal but my Apo B is 0.94 g/L. Normal level

is from 0.49 to 1.03 g/L.

 

What are the herbs that you are using for the liver?

 

All the best

 

Silvia Tawse

Medical Herbalist

________________________________

 

Hi Sylvia,

 

It appears that Apo B can be lowered by weightloss or by supplementation with

carnitine. Two papers from Medline follow.

 

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

 

Carnitine supplementation improves apolipoprotein B levels in pediatric

peritoneal dialysis patients.

Pediatr Nephrol 2003 Nov;18(11):1184-8 (ISSN: 0931-041X)

Kosan C; Sever L; Arisoy N; Caliskan S; Kasapcopur O

Department of Pediatric Nephrology, Medical Faculty of Ataturk University,

Erzurum, Turkey. ckosan.

There have been conflicting reports concerning the effect of carnitine

supplementation on lipid metabolism in patients on peritoneal dialysis (PD). We

investigated several parameters of lipid metabolism in pediatric PD patients

supplemented with carnitine. The study included 20 patients receiving PD

(treatment group) aged 2-18 years and a matched healthy control group. In the

treatment group, baseline triglyceride, total cholesterol, low-density

lipoprotein cholesterol, very low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, and

apolipoprotein B levels were higher than in the control group. High-density

lipoprotein cholesterol, free fatty acid, phospholipids, and apolipoprotein A-I

levels were not different from those in the control group. The baseline plasma

free carnitine level was lower and acyl-carnitine level was higher in the

treatment group. No difference was found between the groups with respect to

plasma total carnitine levels. Oral l-carnitine supplementation (50 mg/kg per

day for 30 days) led to a significant decrease (from a baseline value of

146.6+/-51.8 mg/dl to 63.6+/-22.2 mg/dl, P<0.001) in apolipoprotein B levels,

and no significant change in the other lipid parameters of the treatment group.

Oral l-carnitine supplementation does not ameliorate the lipid profile in

pediatric PD patients, but it causes a significant decrease in apolipoprotein B

levels. Hence, carnitine supplementation may be recommended for decreasing

apolipoprotein B levels in this patient population.

 

_

Postprandial changes in the distribution of apolipoprotein AIV between

apolipoprotein B- and non apolipoprotein B-containing lipoproteins in obese

women.

Metabolism 2003 Dec;52(12):1537-41 (ISSN: 0026-0495)

Ferrer F; Nazih H; Zair Y; Krempf M; Bard JM

Laboratoire de Biochimie fondamentale et appliquee, UFR de Pharmacie,

Nantes, France.

Plasma apolipoprotein AIV (apo AIV) level has been shown to be a good

marker of triglyceride changes after a high-fat diet. However, the distribution

of apo AIV between apo B- and non-apo B-containing lipoproteins (Lp) during the

postprandial state has not been described as well as the influence of obesity on

this distribution. Our aim was to study the influence of parameters related to

obesity and insulin resistance on the postprandial changes in apo AIV-containing

Lp after a high-fat meal in obese women. Twenty-three overweight or obese women

(body mass index [bMI] ranging from 29.1 and 64.0 kg.1 m(-2)), for whom blood

samples were taken after fasting overnight, participated in the study. Thirteen

of these obese women were given a fatty meal and, in this case, blood samples

were taken at fast and 30 minutes, 1, 2, 4, and 6 hours after ingestion of the

fat meal. Apo AIV-containing particle families, Lp B:AIVf (family [f] of

particles containing at least apo B and apo AIV) and Lp AIV non-Bf (family [f]

of particles containing apo AIV, but free of apo B) were quantified by sandwich

enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA). When fasting, Lp B:AIVf and Lp AIV

non-Bf did not correlate with any of the parameters related to obesity and

insulin resistance, if one excepts a positive correlation between

HDL-cholesterol (HDL-C) and Lp AIV non-Bf. Postprandial lipemia was associated

with a trend towards an increase in the plasma levels of apo AIV-containing Lp 6

hours after fat ingestion. The postprandial peak of Lp B:AIVf and Lp AIV non-Bf

occurred 2 hours after the triglyceride peak. The distribution between apo B-

and non-apo B-containing Lp did not change after ingestion of the fat meal, if

one excepts a tendancy towards a lower ratio of bound and nonbound forms at 8

hours. Fasting plasma Lp B:AIVf concentration correlated with the area under the

curve (AUC) of plasma triglycerides (beta = 0.11, P <.02). In a multivariate

analysis, BMI (beta = 51.85, P <.001), fasting triglycerides (beta = 431.08, P

<.01), and low-density lipoprotein-cholesterol (LDL-C) (beta = 2638.57, P <.005)

were independent and positive determinants of the AUC of Lp AIV non-Bf, while

waist circumference (beta = -23.94, P <.001), cholesterol (beta = -1655.02, P

<.01), and systolic blood pressure (beta = -6.34, P <.05) were negative and

independent determinants of this AUC. Fasting Lp B:AIVf may represent a good

marker of the postprandial triglyceride increase in obese women. Changes in apo

AIV concentrations in apo B- and non-apo B-containing Lp after a fat meal depend

mainly on the degree of obesity rather than on insulin resistance. This effect

is more obvious for Lp AIV non-Bf than for Lp B:AIVf.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Emmanuel,

Thank you for your reply. Do you know that avocado can be used by

the body to produce carnitine?

 

> All the best

>

> Silvia Tawse

> Medical Herbalist

> ________________________________

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sylvia--

 

Herbs for the liver which I use are primarily Milk Thistle (not a Chinese

herb) and Yu Jin (Curcuma), and Ku Shen. There is an ITM study which shows that

their standardized preparation of Ku Shen called Oxymatrine is useful for Hep

C patients. Anyone with liver diysfunction I put on their product.

 

You can access ITM's website (Institute for Tradition Medicine) and get info

on this.

 

Lisa