Guest guest Posted June 26, 2004 Report Share Posted June 26, 2004 Hi Holmes & All, I wrote: > But the Spirit lives on and the Spirit in severe pain (in self- chosen isolation from its Creator) is a terrible concept. Holmes replied: > Hearsay? (a) (that the Spirit lives on): Those who do not believe, or know this from personal experience call this hearsay, superstition, hallucination or nonesense. I do not. I, and many of my family and friends, have had many personal experiences that leave confirm the reality of Spirit independent of the body to me/us. But I cannot prove this to one who may not be receptive to the idea. (b) (that the Spirit in severe pain (in self-chosen isolation from its Creator) is a terrible concept ...): Many religions, especially the Christian religions, believe in good and evil, personified in God and the Devil. Human beings, unless out of control because of psychiatric conditions, are responsible for their actions. If one chooses to live an evil life, one chooses to turn away from good/God. That choice has consequences in the next life. Those who do not believe in a next life call this hearsay, superstition, hallucination or nonesense. I do not. I believe in (and have had some personal experiences with) Spirit (human Soul). If human Soul can exist before and after earthly life, I find it logical to believe in a higher level of Soul (God/Devil, Angels/Demidevils, etc. But belief and science have a great gulf between them. I know that. No microscope, telescope or scanner has yet seen anything but natural phenomena. Supernatural, by definition, is beyond the realm of the natural. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Hi Jason Very interesting indeed. There was a person on the acupuncture looking for help with a 3 year old autistic boy who has been dx since birth--unable to bear touch and attention. He can speak now but only to himself. Would this protocol perhaps be appropriate and if so, would it be alright for me to forward this email to the acupuncture ? thanks shanna <jason@d...> wrote: > for your interest, there are 2 possession protocols. one is to release 'internal dragons' - to deal with possessions arising from internal influences. these points are Ren 15 (actually the command point 1/4 cun below Ren 15), St25, St32, St41. > 'External dragons' are Du 20, Du11, Bl 23, Bl61. > if the patient is ready for this, reactions during treatment can often be dramatic. > jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 Chinese Medicine , jason davies <jason@d...> wrote: > > for your interest, there are 2 possession protocols. one is to release 'internal dragons' - to deal with possessions arising from internal influences. these points are Ren 15 (actually the command point 1/4 cun below Ren 15), St25, St32, St41. > 'External dragons' are Du 20, Du11, Bl 23, Bl61. > if the patient is ready for this, reactions during treatment can often be dramatic. Where is this from? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 ID and ED are a form of treatment derived from Worlsey 5E Acupuncture, described also by Lonny Jarrett, is a very effective in tretment of deep disorders (e.g. possession). Marvi - " " < <Chinese Medicine > Thursday, July 01, 2004 1:30 AM Re: Hearsay? > Chinese Medicine , jason davies > <jason@d...> wrote: > > > > > for your interest, there are 2 possession protocols. one is to > release 'internal dragons' - to deal with possessions arising from > internal influences. these points are Ren 15 (actually the command > point 1/4 cun below Ren 15), St25, St32, St41. > > 'External dragons' are Du 20, Du11, Bl 23, Bl61. > > if the patient is ready for this, reactions during treatment can > often be dramatic. > > Where is this from? > > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " Marco Visconti " <agomar@f...> wrote: > ID and ED are a form of treatment derived from Worlsey 5E Acupuncture, > described also by Lonny Jarrett, is a very effective in tretment of deep > disorders (e.g. possession). I am curious if Lonny / Worsley CREATED these? I have not read about this is Chinese, which does not meen much, but makes me skeptical. ALso I am curious about the concept in general about releasing these dragons to fight off the evil, is this a CHinese idea? It was my understanding that acupunture, contrary to what was said in the earlier post, developed from the idea that one is driving the demons out of the body. I think this latter idea is most prevelant in historical chinese records. COuld someone point me to some Historical sources or chinese sources that discuss these internal releasing dragon ideas? Thanx, - > Marvi > > - > " " > <Chinese Medicine > > Thursday, July 01, 2004 1:30 AM > Re: Hearsay? > > > > Chinese Medicine , jason davies > > <jason@d...> wrote: > > > > > > > > for your interest, there are 2 possession protocols. one is to > > release 'internal dragons' - to deal with possessions arising from > > internal influences. these points are Ren 15 (actually the command > > point 1/4 cun below Ren 15), St25, St32, St41. > > > 'External dragons' are Du 20, Du11, Bl 23, Bl61. > > > if the patient is ready for this, reactions during treatment can > > often be dramatic. > > > > Where is this from? > > > > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 Preamble: To believe in something by hearsay, is to invite chaos into the system. Questions: 1. Where do these demons live in the body? In the Wei, the qi,, the blood, the organ? 2. Has anyone. including Mr. Worsley, actually made the acquaintance of these creatures? 3. Where did they originate, outside the organism, if they have invaded. 4. What portal did the come in from? 5. Where are they likely to hone in, everything is directional in TCM. If these cannot be answered, one dealing with a myth, and taking it as reality. Which is the same as taking the reality of TCM, and making it into a myth. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 Jason Jody H and I had the same instructor. My notes show the treatment came from George Soulie De Morant; Worsely then started using the treatment and according to my instructor used it on most everyone (I don't agree...and neither did my instructor) AFTER doing an Aggressive Energy Treatment. The key phrase when to use is' every since then I haven't been the same' The External is used for RECENT trauma (couple of weeks max) and is for something that happened to you (external physical trauma or emotional trauma) or something the patient witnessed. The Internal is used 99% of the time (or at least in the instructor's case) and can be very powerful). Examples would be drug abuse, alcoholics, after a bad relationship, parent issues, something that has come in and taken over. The treatment removes the burden, helps with dealing with negative feelings. Helps push it out. Kind of like waking the dragon to attack the negative energy/spirits/disharmony. I look at it as more healing or nurturing. I have used the Internal a couple of times with good results. And I did hear of a student who used it a lot --- 3 or 4 times on one patient. The patient complained that she didn't feel like herself, had a loss of energy, loss of spirit. Interesting as she was a Dragoon in Chinese horoscope. My comment on this is I would not use it often and then perhaps only once/patient (or maybe twice if the treatment was spaced out. ie: with 3 or 4 other treatments in between). It could push too much out as described above. Hope this helps some --- I haven't been treated on my own long, so this is very much IMHO (as well as in my 'little experience'). Sincerely, Kathleen < wrote: Chinese Medicine , " Marco Visconti " <agomar@f...> wrote: > ID and ED are a form of treatment derived from Worlsey 5E Acupuncture, > described also by Lonny Jarrett, is a very effective in tretment of deep > disorders (e.g. possession). I am curious if Lonny / Worsley CREATED these? I have not read about this is Chinese, which does not meen much, but makes me skeptical. ALso I am curious about the concept in general about releasing these dragons to fight off the evil, is this a CHinese idea? It was my understanding that acupunture, contrary to what was said in the earlier post, developed from the idea that one is driving the demons out of the body. I think this latter idea is most prevelant in historical chinese records. COuld someone point me to some Historical sources or chinese sources that discuss these internal releasing dragon ideas? Thanx, - > Marvi > > - > " " > <Chinese Medicine > > Thursday, July 01, 2004 1:30 AM > Re: Hearsay? > > > > Chinese Medicine , jason davies > > <jason@d...> wrote: > > > > > > > > for your interest, there are 2 possession protocols. one is to > > release 'internal dragons' - to deal with possessions arising from > > internal influences. these points are Ren 15 (actually the command > > point 1/4 cun below Ren 15), St25, St32, St41. > > > 'External dragons' are Du 20, Du11, Bl 23, Bl61. > > > if the patient is ready for this, reactions during treatment can > > often be dramatic. > > > > Where is this from? > > > > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 I've also wondered about this over the years, Jason. The Worsley school gives few sources for their ideas, and just because someone says something is 'traditional' doesn't mean it has a source in the Chinese medical literature. It is fine to create something new, such as Nogier's auriculotherapy, but there is no claim to being 'Chinese' in this case. If someone in the Worsley school could explain what Chinese characters and terms are used for 'dragons', what texts are the sources for this clinical approach, it would be helpful, but I haven't been able to find anyone who could. Is it possibly an interpretation of xie qi/evil qi? Who knows. We must remember that we are the modern representatives of an ancient medical tradition. It is important that we represent it as accurately as possible, which means letting others know which ideas are our own. If we don't have a clear source in the Chinese medical literature, than it is an original idea that should be open to scrutiny. And there cannot be access to the Chinese medical literature without some training in medical Chinese language. On Jul 1, 2004, at 6:35 AM, wrote: > Chinese Medicine , " Marco Visconti " > <agomar@f...> wrote: >> ID and ED are a form of treatment derived from Worlsey 5E Acupuncture, >> described also by Lonny Jarrett, is a very effective in tretment of >> deep >> disorders (e.g. possession). > > I am curious if Lonny / Worsley CREATED these? I have not read about > this is Chinese, which does not meen much, but makes me skeptical. > ALso I am curious about the concept in general about releasing these > dragons to fight off the evil, is this a CHinese idea? It was my > understanding that acupunture, contrary to what was said in the > earlier post, developed from the idea that one is driving the demons > out of the body. I think this latter idea is most prevelant in > historical chinese records. COuld someone point me to some Historical > sources or chinese sources that discuss these internal releasing > dragon ideas? Thanx, > > - > > >> Marvi >> >> - >> " " >> <Chinese Medicine > >> Thursday, July 01, 2004 1:30 AM >> Re: Hearsay? >> >> >>> Chinese Medicine , jason davies >>> <jason@d...> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> for your interest, there are 2 possession protocols. one is to >>> release 'internal dragons' - to deal with possessions arising from >>> internal influences. these points are Ren 15 (actually the command >>> point 1/4 cun below Ren 15), St25, St32, St41. >>>> 'External dragons' are Du 20, Du11, Bl 23, Bl61. >>>> if the patient is ready for this, reactions during treatment can >>> often be dramatic. >>> >>> Where is this from? >>> >>> - > > > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being > delivered. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2004 Report Share Posted July 2, 2004 Chinese Medicine , Kathleen Mathews <kthmathews2003> wrote: > Jason > > Jody H and I had the same instructor. My notes show the treatment came from George Soulie De Morant; Can't find it, could you point out where? .. > > Kind of like waking the dragon to attack the negative energy/spirits/disharmony. I look at it as more healing or nurturing. > This is the concept that I question... I would like to see a chinese source on this... Thanx in advance, - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2004 Report Share Posted July 2, 2004 Chinese Medicine , jason davies <jason@d...> wrote: > the dragons protocol can be very effective > i do however think the questions you raise are pertinent and have wondered myself just where they come from and on what authorty. i will do some research and report back. > preamble : > and i wonder, even if worsley just made this up (which i very much doubt ) Why do you doubt this? He made up so much, as far as I know... >would it make it any less valuable as an effective treatment? is something which is old and 'classic' necessarily better? Everything starts off as new sometime. This is a huge but very simple topic in my mind. I think a) If something is made up it is important to know this and evaluate it accordingly. This information is essential to evaluating therapies. I.e. I have no desire to try something that 1 single person created, in the last 50 years or so, and has not clinically researched it. There are just too many other therapies that have history or research or peer review that I would rather try first, but that is just me. I think it is deceiving to label something as i.e. " Classical acupuncture " when it has no historical record, which further clouds our field. IF there is a historical record or we find these i.e. dragon ideas in Chinese modern or classical this is very important. It does not at all change if it is effective or not, the effectiveness is not the point… It may or may not that is something we cannot debate without research. Things should be known for what they are and then everyone can decide what to do with them on there own merits. If there is no record than I think 100's if not 1000's of people have been deceived, and I personally question any therapy that stands on such ground. Any further information would be greatly appreciated… - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2004 Report Share Posted July 2, 2004 Jason Is the effectiveness really not the point? What is the point of treatment? Mark Burrows > It does not at all change if it is effective or not, the effectiveness > is not the point… > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2004 Report Share Posted July 3, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " mark_burrows_01 " <markburrows@s...> wrote: > Jason > > Is the effectiveness really not the point? > What is the point of treatment? Ok if you want to open a can of worms, let try this... Of course the effectiveness is the point! But we have to figure out how we deem something is effective. I think anyone that has been involved in alternative medicine for any amount of time knows that this is black hole without some guidelines for evaluation. I do not think people's words alone can represent any truth, or at least any reproducible truth. I would be happy to discuss what guide of criteria should be used to evaluate modalities, I contend that it is sophomoric just to go on `the patient feels better' or I know it works because I cured XYZ with it… - > > Mark Burrows > > > It does not at all change if it is effective or not, the > effectiveness > > is not the point… > > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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