Guest guest Posted June 26, 2004 Report Share Posted June 26, 2004 The Chinese texts often give depths which hover around an inch or more. Some Japanese styles come away with a few millimeters and bring in spectacular payload. If one takes to the latter, the former seems needlessly trauma-producing. Does needle depth depend on the practitioner, or should it be dictated by what serves the patient best? Hypothetically, when patients will become more aware of the art and the process, they may opt for the lesser trauma. In which case, will a healer used to deeper needling, still needle deeply? At what depth does the needle cause the best qi gradient? One has heard a lot about Wei qi and how to disperse and needle, and how to conserve and block, and so on. In practice a shallow insertion sets up as easily, a tremendous current, palpable by an almost simultaneous shift in pulse profile. The other day, a tongue almost denuded of moss, filled up to a sheen of white, inside of maybe 20 seconds, of putting in the right needle, at a very shallow depth, in the right place. Does 'where' matter more than 'how deep'? Is there another qi current which hovers at the surface, maybe even above it, that we have no idea about? Or is there a qi layer all pervading, which activates at the slightest touch? Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2004 Report Share Posted June 26, 2004 Dear dr. Holmes --- " Dr. Holmes " <aryaone@e...> wrote: > The Chinese texts often give depths which hover around an inch or more. > > Some Japanese styles come away with a few millimeters and bring in > spectacular payload. Did you know that Chapter 12 Ling Shu (pg 580 Wu & Wu translation) talks about the needling depth and duration of needle retention for the different channels in the following manner: - stomach foot yang min: 6 fen, 10 exhalations - bladder foot taiyang: 5 fen, 7 exhalations - gallbladder foot shaoyang 4 fen, 5 exhalations - spleen foot taiyin: 3 fen, 4 exhalations - kidney foot shaoyin: 2 fen, 3 exhalations - liver foot jueyin: 1 fen, 2 exhalations - all hand channels: < 2 fen, < 1 exhalation and that excessive needling depletes the qi With a normal breathing rate of 15 breaths per minute this amounts to very short needling times, much shorter than what I have seen in clinical practice. Also the needling depth in practice and in all the books is also often much greater. I am very much interested in opinions from others about this subject of needling depth and needle retention. Best wishes Alwin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2004 Report Share Posted June 26, 2004 > Alwin > I am very much interested in opinions from others about this subject > of needling depth and needle retention. > > Excellent post. I am tending to very short time frames, from a minute to maybe 10. What regulates in-time is change on tongue and in pulse. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2004 Report Share Posted June 26, 2004 As far as depth goes, I have many patients that I treat doing no more than tapping the needle in, and they get good results---Seemingly as good as if I'd really manipulated the needle. As far as retention time goes, I'd really like to know other's opinions on this as well. I've wondered if a 5 Element style to reducing or tonifying would work with a TCM style. In other words, would it work to put a needle in and turn it clockwise and take it out to tonify? Anyone with experience doing this who does not practice 5 Element acupuncture? Thanks! Laura Chinese Medicine , @v... wrote: > Dear dr. Holmes > > --- " Dr. Holmes " <aryaone@e...> wrote: > > The Chinese texts often give depths which hover around an inch or > more. > > > > Some Japanese styles come away with a few millimeters and bring in > > spectacular payload. > > Did you know that Chapter 12 Ling Shu (pg 580 Wu & Wu translation) > talks about the needling depth and duration of needle retention for > the different channels in the following manner: > - stomach foot yang min: 6 fen, 10 exhalations > - bladder foot taiyang: 5 fen, 7 exhalations > - gallbladder foot shaoyang 4 fen, 5 exhalations > - spleen foot taiyin: 3 fen, 4 exhalations > - kidney foot shaoyin: 2 fen, 3 exhalations > - liver foot jueyin: 1 fen, 2 exhalations > - all hand channels: < 2 fen, < 1 exhalation > > and that excessive needling depletes the qi > > With a normal breathing rate of 15 breaths per minute this amounts to > very short needling times, much shorter than what I have seen in > clinical practice. Also the needling depth in practice and in all the > books is also often much greater. > > I am very much interested in opinions from others about this subject > of needling depth and needle retention. > > Best wishes > > Alwin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2004 Report Share Posted June 26, 2004 I have observed and used many different aproaches at needle depth, and there is no such thing as shallow being superior to deep, or short retention better than long. I know people who are charmed at the idea of being able to sneak a needle into a sleeping cat. But I've seen it have no effect sometimes too. Flexibility and sensitivity and experience decides what could be best for each needle and each patient. For joint or deep places deep penetration often works better than shallow. But shallow insertion at channel end and deep near location happens. Stronger stimulation and longer retention reduces excess - that is really true, and shallower in fragile and weak people, also generally true. In summer generally shallower than cold season. To pull out evil qi thru the wei level, in slow and deep then more forceful quicker pull up in stages. Normal technique, right? Combination techniques. Some are not sensitive to needle, so leave needle in longer, and come back and twist and thrust and soon , good sensation. Also , for electro-acupuncture, you want the needle to standup usually, sometimes not because of threading a needle, or to deliver to surface layer. Dang, there is New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2004 Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 I think those things depend on the person in front of you ,and at different times of year and day you may needle differently. Depending on the condition at hand you may change your treatment. We see different conditions with different people, and we should stay flexible to adjust the protocol if needed. Alexander Zide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2004 Report Share Posted July 5, 2004 Is it legitimate to say that by and large: Most Chinese and Korean styles of acupuncture use more needles per case, which are of a thicker gauge, such as 28 to 32. And that most Japanese styles use less number of needles per case, which are of a thinner gauge such as 36 to 38? Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2004 Report Share Posted July 5, 2004 i'd say that Japanese tend to use thinner needles, no question. IIRC the most popular gauge in Japan is #2 (Chinese 38 gauge or .18mm diameter). Most Keiraku Chiryo (Japanese Meridian Therapy) practitioners will use even thinner needles especially for root tx, generally #1, #01 or #02 gauge (Chinese 40, 42, 44 or .16mm, .14mm, ..12mm diameter). I seldom use anything thicker than #1. Fewer needles i think is not so true. Probably depends on the practitioner and then even on the individual case. robert hayden Chinese Medicine , " Dr. Holmes Keikobad " <acuheal@e...> wrote: > Is it legitimate to say that by and large: > > Most Chinese and Korean styles of acupuncture use more needles per case, > which are of a thicker gauge, such as 28 to 32. > > And that most Japanese styles use less number of needles per case, which are > of a thinner gauge such as 36 to 38? > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad > MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ > www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. > NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2004 Report Share Posted July 5, 2004 I would say that's a wide " in -general " statement. In the USA, we tend to use thinner gauge needles - 36, 38, even 40. Maybe in China and Korea, they use 28, 30, 32 gauges still. As for number of needles per treatment, that all depends on what style you use. In China, there are styles that use a single needle, paired needles and 3 needles per treatment. Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, PhD chusauli See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com > " Dr. Holmes Keikobad " <acuheal >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >Re: needle depth >Mon, 5 Jul 2004 08:40:28 -0700 > >Is it legitimate to say that by and large: > >Most Chinese and Korean styles of acupuncture use more needles per case, >which are of a thicker gauge, such as 28 to 32. > >And that most Japanese styles use less number of needles per case, which >are >of a thinner gauge such as 36 to 38? > >Dr. Holmes Keikobad >MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ >www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. >NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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