Herb Quality

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio,

 

I for one did not want to sound self-serving and so refrained from replying to

your earlier comments. I accept any editing you wish to do to this post.

 

My business is predicated on Dr. Liang (the owner) visiting growers and growing

sites with Chinese agronomists that she has developed relationships with over

the past 16 years. In their company (and sometimes with others) she has visited

many a remote site in at Jilin, Shandong, Shaanxi, Gansu, Nei Mon, Sichuan and

other provinces. All Chinese provinces are visited by our agronomists. Dr.

Liang arranges for export from within China through various agencies of

provincial governments, and then we import into America. Dr. Liang makes

excellent selections based on what our clinic would like to see. Historically

America got it's herbs through distribution companies in Hong Kong and Shenzhen,

and most of it still comes that way. We had to do a lot of re-education of

people here to get them to realize what good quality herbs look like at a good

hospital pharmacy in Shanghai, Xian or Chengdu. This is not to suggest that

southern Chinese herbs are bad or inappropriate for southern Chinese medicine.

The medicine of the south is authentic and reliable from all I've heard.

However, the herbs that arrive in America that bear the name of herbs of

literature are often substitutes, highly sulfured, or simply wrong for the

medicine of literature. It's also not possible to take the best herbs from

northern growers and offer them to vendors in American Chinatowns because those

herbs will not be recognized. One must note that the diaspora of Chinese people

in America has historically been from the south ... mostly from Cantonese

speaking regions. So our herbs from the north are somewhat unique not just

because they are clean and fresh ... but they are also the herbs of the north

and of literature.

 

Many companies make use of these herbs in America: Pacific Biologic, Far East

Summit, K'an to some extent, A. M Todd (formerly East Earth Herb), Gaia,

HerbPharm, and numerous others. The clinics at Oregon College of Oriental

Medicine and at New England School of Acupuncture and TCM use Dr. Liang's

selections. The White Crane Pharmacy in Texas has been acquiring some of these

herbs, too. Thorne Sales and Distribution are our main outlet to practitioners

and clinics.

 

I apologize if this sounds too commercial. I just wanted to point out that it's

possible, with considerable leg work in China, to acquire good herbs. Going to

the two large open markets in China (especially the one in Hebei) will result in

herbs with a great deal of sulfur preservatives and heavy metals. While we

don't spend the money to test for heavy metals, we do prepay the harvests to

avoid the use of chemicals by the growers. Many of our vendors test our herbs

for heavy metals. Going to the growers and prepaying harvests is the way to get

good herbs. BTW, America and Europe combined is still a very tiny marketplace

for Chinese herbs.

 

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

Hi all,

 

I talked some time back about herbal quality coming out of China and

didn't get much response. It seems many members are unwilling to

face the fact that their 'only' source of raw herbs are less than

what they should be.

 

I recently went to the large Chinese herbal distribution area in

Seoul. There they had a mix of imported herbs from China and the

locally grown Korean versions. I happened to notice Huang Qi. One

was from China and the other grown in Korea. The Chinese Huang Qi is

farmed every 2 years whereas the Korean version is farmed every 5

years. I was amazed at the difference in quality. The Korean version

was superior in size, colour, cost, quality and treatment effect.

Yes, treatment effect! A doctor i know here in Korea, told me he

used Chinese herbs to produce a typical formula he had made for

years. It simply didn't work half aswell as if he had used Korean

herbs instead.

 

This isn't an isolated incidence. I've been buying raw herbs from

various pharmacies in China for the last 5 months and have noticed

that the herbs are not good quality. Ok, so i'm told, the best herbs

are exported, like the coffee from South America, but it doesn't

mean the quality is as it should be.

 

Now i've seen both countries and cultures, Chinese and Korean. The

Koreans are more advanced in terms of organic, natural farming,

without the use of heavy chemicals along with recycling methods. The

Chinese on the other hand, are the opposite. Even the fruit and veg

in China has to be washed throughly with washing-up liquid before it

can be eaten, imagine what's going on with the herbs coming out of

China.

 

Just because we all practice Traditional , it

doesn't mean that we have to use herbs or machines produced in

China. Often they are inferior and better alternatives can be sort

elsewhere. It's time that we practitioners stop sticking our heads

in the sand and vote with our feet, find a good supplier that can

offer good quality herbs with the real stuff inside them, the stuff

that makes people better! Yes, they will be more expensive, but the

success of treatment effect will out-weigh this in the long run and

benefit our industry.

 

Attilio

 

 

 

Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious,

spam messages,flame another member or swear.

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

delivered.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Emmanuel,

 

I understand what your saying. I'm talking more from my own personal

experiences whilst i've been in China and Korea. The hospitals, even

the best ones, often have the worse herbs. The best place to buy the

best herbs in China is from the formly government owned clinics,

Tong Ren Tang. Even here, as i've noticed, the herbs could be alot

better.

 

I'm glad that there is still alot of leg work going into acquiring a

good supply of herbs. Of course, all herbs that are grown in China

will fall under Chinese law in regards to the use of chemicals to

enhance their growth. These laws, i believe are not as restrict as

their Western or Korean counterparts, take my example of the fruit

and veg in China. Therefore, in relation to western standards, they

fall along way short.

 

Even though alot of time and money has gone into the re-education of

farmers in China, i still believe that their sole concern is weight

and volumne rather than quality. This i've seen everywhere in China.

The simple fact is, China are decades behind in terms of

understanding and producing the quality of products that are

expected and demanded in the West.

 

I'l hopefully be visting the areas in China where the herbs are

grown and i'll see the actual fields for myself. Until then, i

believe that the herbal quality in China is bad and will be for many

years to come.

 

Attilio

 

" Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote:

> Hi Attilio,

>

> I for one did not want to sound self-serving and so refrained from

replying to your earlier comments. I accept any editing you wish to

do to this post.

>

> My business is predicated on Dr. Liang (the owner) visiting

growers and growing sites with Chinese agronomists that she has

developed relationships with over the past 16 years. In their

company (and sometimes with others) she has visited many a remote

site in at Jilin, Shandong, Shaanxi, Gansu, Nei Mon, Sichuan and

other provinces. All Chinese provinces are visited by our

agronomists. Dr. Liang arranges for export from within China

through various agencies of provincial governments, and then we

import into America. Dr. Liang makes excellent selections based on

what our clinic would like to see. Historically America got it's

herbs through distribution companies in Hong Kong and Shenzhen, and

most of it still comes that way. We had to do a lot of re-education

of people here to get them to realize what good quality herbs look

like at a good hospital pharmacy in Shanghai, Xian or Chengdu. This

is not to suggest that southern Chinese herbs are bad or

inappropriate for southern Chinese medicine. The medicine of the

south is authentic and reliable from all I've heard. However, the

herbs that arrive in America that bear the name of herbs of

literature are often substitutes, highly sulfured, or simply wrong

for the medicine of literature. It's also not possible to take the

best herbs from northern growers and offer them to vendors in

American Chinatowns because those herbs will not be recognized. One

must note that the diaspora of Chinese people in America has

historically been from the south ... mostly from Cantonese speaking

regions. So our herbs from the north are somewhat unique not just

because they are clean and fresh ... but they are also the herbs of

the north and of literature.

>

> Many companies make use of these herbs in America: Pacific

Biologic, Far East Summit, K'an to some extent, A. M Todd (formerly

East Earth Herb), Gaia, HerbPharm, and numerous others. The clinics

at Oregon College of Oriental Medicine and at New England School of

Acupuncture and TCM use Dr. Liang's selections. The White Crane

Pharmacy in Texas has been acquiring some of these herbs, too.

Thorne Sales and Distribution are our main outlet to practitioners

and clinics.

>

> I apologize if this sounds too commercial. I just wanted to point

out that it's possible, with considerable leg work in China, to

acquire good herbs. Going to the two large open markets in China

(especially the one in Hebei) will result in herbs with a great deal

of sulfur preservatives and heavy metals. While we don't spend the

money to test for heavy metals, we do prepay the harvests to avoid

the use of chemicals by the growers. Many of our vendors test our

herbs for heavy metals. Going to the growers and prepaying harvests

is the way to get good herbs. BTW, America and Europe combined is

still a very tiny marketplace for Chinese herbs.

>

> Respectfully,

> Emmanuel Segmen

>

>

> Hi all,

>

> I talked some time back about herbal quality coming out of China

and

> didn't get much response. It seems many members are unwilling to

> face the fact that their 'only' source of raw herbs are less

than

> what they should be.

>

> I recently went to the large Chinese herbal distribution area in

> Seoul. There they had a mix of imported herbs from China and the

> locally grown Korean versions. I happened to notice Huang Qi.

One

> was from China and the other grown in Korea. The Chinese Huang

Qi is

> farmed every 2 years whereas the Korean version is farmed every

5

> years. I was amazed at the difference in quality. The Korean

version

> was superior in size, colour, cost, quality and treatment

effect.

> Yes, treatment effect! A doctor i know here in Korea, told me he

> used Chinese herbs to produce a typical formula he had made for

> years. It simply didn't work half aswell as if he had used

Korean

> herbs instead.

>

> This isn't an isolated incidence. I've been buying raw herbs

from

> various pharmacies in China for the last 5 months and have

noticed

> that the herbs are not good quality. Ok, so i'm told, the best

herbs

> are exported, like the coffee from South America, but it doesn't

> mean the quality is as it should be.

>

> Now i've seen both countries and cultures, Chinese and Korean.

The

> Koreans are more advanced in terms of organic, natural farming,

> without the use of heavy chemicals along with recycling methods.

The

> Chinese on the other hand, are the opposite. Even the fruit and

veg

> in China has to be washed throughly with washing-up liquid

before it

> can be eaten, imagine what's going on with the herbs coming out

of

> China.

>

> Just because we all practice Traditional , it

> doesn't mean that we have to use herbs or machines produced in

> China. Often they are inferior and better alternatives can be

sort

> elsewhere. It's time that we practitioners stop sticking our

heads

> in the sand and vote with our feet, find a good supplier that

can

> offer good quality herbs with the real stuff inside them, the

stuff

> that makes people better! Yes, they will be more expensive, but

the

> success of treatment effect will out-weigh this in the long run

and

> benefit our industry.

>

> Attilio

[Guest guest]

Dear Attilio,

I am a distributor for KPC and know for a fact that they are

extremely stringent on quality

 

Lorraine.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio!

 

Have you considered growing some for your own practice? Wouldn't need more

than a few acres, maybe could even lease the land. I have thought of

growing table veggies in my flower beds . . .

 

At 10:15 PM 6/25/2004, you wrote:

>Hi all,

>

>I talked some time back about herbal quality coming out of China and

>didn't get much response. It seems many members are unwilling to

>face the fact that their 'only' source of raw herbs are less than

>what they should be.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete,

 

Yes, i have thought about it. I've heard that some farmers are growing TCM herbs

in Italy. Since some TCM herbs originated outside of China, in other parts of

Asia and the Middle East, then i don't see why they can't be grown elsewhere.

I'll certainly have a try when i get access to some land.

 

Attilio

 

Pete Theisen <petet wrote:

Hi Attilio!

 

Have you considered growing some for your own practice? Wouldn't need more

than a few acres, maybe could even lease the land. I have thought of

growing table veggies in my flower beds . . .

 

At 10:15 PM 6/25/2004, you wrote:

>Hi all,

>

>I talked some time back about herbal quality coming out of China and

>didn't get much response. It seems many members are unwilling to

>face the fact that their 'only' source of raw herbs are less than

>what they should be.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

 

 

ALL-NEW Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself

 

 

[Guest guest]

Can you recommend a company who can supply quality-controlled TCM herbs

(with MSDS sheets for safety) to be used in the cosmetic industry?

thanks

Glen Rein

Quantum Biology Research

 

 

Attilio D'Alberto [attiliodalberto]

Tuesday, June 29, 2004 10:12 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Herb Quality

 

 

Hi Pete,

 

Yes, i have thought about it. I've heard that some farmers are growing TCM

herbs in Italy. Since some TCM herbs originated outside of China, in other

parts of Asia and the Middle East, then i don't see why they can't be grown

elsewhere. I'll certainly have a try when i get access to some land.

 

Attilio

 

Pete Theisen <petet wrote:

Hi Attilio!

 

Have you considered growing some for your own practice? Wouldn't need more

than a few acres, maybe could even lease the land. I have thought of

growing table veggies in my flower beds . . .

 

At 10:15 PM 6/25/2004, you wrote:

>Hi all,

>

>I talked some time back about herbal quality coming out of China and

>didn't get much response. It seems many members are unwilling to

>face the fact that their 'only' source of raw herbs are less than

>what they should be.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

 

 

ALL-NEW Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself

 

 

[Guest guest]

If anyone wishes to reply to this message, please do so off-list.

Business supplier details cannot be posted onto the group.

 

Attilio

 

" Rein, Glen " <grein@E...> wrote:

> Can you recommend a company who can supply quality-controlled TCM

herbs

> (with MSDS sheets for safety) to be used in the cosmetic industry?

> thanks

> Glen Rein

> Quantum Biology Research

[Guest guest]

Sorry I didn't know

 

 

[attiliodalberto]

Tuesday, June 29, 2004 12:26 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Herb Quality

 

 

If anyone wishes to reply to this message, please do so off-list.

Business supplier details cannot be posted onto the group.

 

Attilio

 

" Rein, Glen " <grein@E...> wrote:

> Can you recommend a company who can supply quality-controlled TCM

herbs

> (with MSDS sheets for safety) to be used in the cosmetic industry?

> thanks

> Glen Rein

> Quantum Biology Research

 

 

 

Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious,

spam messages,flame another member or swear.

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/ <http://babel.altavista.com/>

 

 

 

<> and

adjust accordingly.

 

If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

delivered.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio!

 

There is an interesting history of medicinal herbs in America. It seems

that some of the old time European medicinal herbs did not grow well in the

colonies, or did not work on some of the colonial diseases. The Indians

showed the colonists some of the local herbs.

 

At 10:11 AM 6/29/2004, you wrote:

>Hi Pete,

>

>Yes, i have thought about it. I've heard that some farmers are growing TCM

>herbs in Italy.

 

Regards,

 

Pete