RE: Digest Number 521 Tui-Na

[Guest guest]

Regarding the Tui-Na, there are so many different types of tui-na that surely it

would depend upon the cause and the type of treatment. I have seen tui-na in

the hospitals in Beijing as physio, massage, osteopathy and even chiropractic

adjustments. So the same as the decision to go to each therapist in the Western

system, surely it would depend for the type of Tui-na one needs in the Oriental

system. eg. if your back is stiff due to pressure on the nerve, then a

chiropractic type of tui-na would be useful, if it was due to muscular problems,

then physio type tui-na would be useful.

 

I treated a Chinese lady here in Spain and gave tui-na, followed by needles. It

was for facial paralysis. She understood that it was tui-na. Improvement

reached a standstill, so we introduced her to the Chiropractor. Our Chiropractor

gave her a neck adjustment which she also recognised as tui-na and had received

that treatment before in China. Improvement began again. So perhaps it´s the

old adage, a little bit of everything? Tui-na has proved good for me,

especially with pain, however, with patients with organ problems, migrain,

blood-qi disorders, I encourage them to go for acupuncture, even if I combine

both. I believe it works better. But, that is my personal experience only.

 

 

 

Attilio, I am interested in hearing more about the practitioner in Beijing, I

would love to have his address and experience his treatments. I am going at the

end of July for a month!! I shall be doing the " A " level of the International

Examination of Acupuncture & Moxibustion. Wish me luck!!!

 

Best wishes Sharon Nilsson

 

Centro Europeo de Medicina Holística S.L.<br><br>$Chiropractor Johan E. Nilsson

B.Sc.C.<br><br>$Sharon E. Nilsson Lic. Ac.<br><br>$c/Herrerías 20, Edificio

Albéniz II<br><br>$03580 Alfaz del Pi, Alicante<br><br>$Spain

 

 

 

>Message: 2

 

> Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:10:36 -0000

 

> " "

 

>Tuina-how effective is it?

 

>Hi all,

 

>I've been having Tuina sessions for some 3-4 months now by a well

 

>qualified and experience and also wonderful blind practitioner, here

 

>in Beijing. It's not for anything really serious, just my very stiff

 

>upper back and neck from using this pc too much, lol. However, I

 

>have a friend (a group member) who had a lot more sessions than I

 

>did, is a Tuina practitioner himself, and has a back problem from an

 

>accident some years ago.

 

>Both of us have been to the same practitioner after visiting all the

 

>rest in Beijing, this one was by far the best. In the short term, we

 

>both noticed immediate relief from our symptoms and felt a lot

 

>better. However, after 3 months of treatment, with a Tuina massage

 

>every week, sometimes twice a week, the treatment outcome was the

 

>same, with no further regression of symptoms, although we were a lot

 

>more relaxed, felt well and were comfortable in movement.

 

>This has lead me to think as to our beneficial Tuina actually is. Is

 

>it really a stand alone treatment method that can completely treat

 

>disorders by itself, or does it need to be combined with our forms

 

>of healthcare such as acupuncture and herbs to be truly effective?

 

>Does anyone have any personal experience and possible answers?

 

>Attilio

 

>P.S. Am off to Korea tomorrow to visit family, don't know how much

 

>internet time i'll get.

 

>

[Guest guest]

Painful tuina to heal pain.

 

Pain is unnatural, for symbiosis does not entertain it.

 

Is not a therapy which incilcates pain to limit pain suspect?

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

I think pain is a very subective area. Someone's pain is another's

tenderness or no discomfort at all. Personally, i believe that a

certain amount of discomfort is needed for the treatment to have a

resonable amout of positive effect.

 

Attilio

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad " <acuheal@e...> wrote:

> Painful tuina to heal pain.

>

> Pain is unnatural, for symbiosis does not entertain it.

>

> Is not a therapy which incilcates pain to limit pain suspect?

>

> Dr. Holmes Keikobad

> MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

> www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

> NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio and Holmes

 

It is my understanding that pain operates on a continuum and is,

indeed, sujective. However, each patient must be allowed to start

where they are with this so that their para-sympathetic nervous

system can be engaged and they can become aware of their own holding

patterns in order to relax. I was taught, in my early western

massage training, that one must operate below the " threshold " of

pain in order to get the desired results. This is because when one

exceeds this threshold, it elicits the fight or flight response and

there is a release of adrenalin which causes a tightening up of the

muscles and the treatment is resisted. Some pain is normal but the

patient should be able to relax into it comfortably. In this way, we

are encouraging the release of endorphins and the toning of the para-

sympathetic nervous system which paves the way for healing.

 

With respect to vigorous motions of tui na such as lifting and

grasping, again one must be careful not to grasp too strongly. For a

person with very tight muscles, the approach should be very gentle

at first to allow the person to relax into and trust the motions

being performed. For lack of a better analogy, it's like foreplay.

You don't just want to go crashing in. Watch for any flinching,

frowning, fist or toe clenching, or holding of the breath as these

are signs the patient is in too much pain. Ask the patient to let

you know if it feels good or not. Remember, healing happens within

the patient. Our skills are only as good as their application and

our sensitivity to the patient's experience. The tui na itself, if

proper diagnosis and treatment plan are chosen, will work, that's a

fact. However, not without sensitivity to the patient's qi which

includes shen which also includes the perception of pain. If they

say they are in pain, believe them. It may seem like you are barely

touching them, but their apprehension and consequent adrenalin

response is real and makes then acutely sensitive to pain in many

instances. Once they realize you are not going to go " crashing in " ,

they will relax and accept and enjoy the treatment. Again, as with

foreplay, one must be patient and attentive.

By the way, I found many of the practitioners in China were not as

sensitive to this. Perhaps since they don't live with the same

cultural stresses that we do they have fewer problems with patients

being so " bound up " and apprehensive about treatment. They were also

a lot more open to vigorous needle stimulation and seemed to

experience little pain with it (not so here). I have found that

remembering the things I was taught about the nervous system in

western massage school and applying these concepts to the practice

of tui na has helped me to take my skills to a much higher level.

Kind Regards, Shanna

 

Chinese Medicine , " Attilio

DAlberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

> I think pain is a very subective area. Someone's pain is another's

> tenderness or no discomfort at all. Personally, i believe that a

> certain amount of discomfort is needed for the treatment to have a

> resonable amout of positive effect.

>

> Attilio

>

> Dr. Holmes Keikobad " <acuheal@e...> wrote:

> > Painful tuina to heal pain.

> >

> > Pain is unnatural, for symbiosis does not entertain it.

> >

> > Is not a therapy which incilcates pain to limit pain suspect?

> >

> > Dr. Holmes Keikobad

> > MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

> > www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

> > NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

Pain is not natural, it has no existence except in the states of imbalance

and

disharmony.

 

Rationalizing pain as part of healing is opening unseen floodgates of an

unknown dam. If some pain is acceptable today, there will tomorrow

be agony at the doorstep, as a legitimate part of therapy.

 

If one beats 5 to the breath, and the pulses reflect the 4 seasons, the

opposites

are in harmony, and there can be no pain.

 

Pain has no place in the experiences open to humans on this planet.

 

Even the ubiquitous needle used in acupuncture is some kind of an

abhorrence, as

qi can be as easily moved in a non-intervention mode.

 

Again, the needle put into your flesh by one hand, can hardly ne felt, and

by another, will have you go through the roof.

 

Accept pain as inevitable, and you will find people inflicting it on you

as a matter of course.

 

Accept pain as inevitable, and you will find people handing it to you

in relationships, at work, on the streets.

 

Accept pain as inevitable, and even your own flesh will stand against you,

and turn maverick, and betray you to strange illness and stanger therapy.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

" Dr. Holmes Keikobad " <acuheal wrote:

 

Pain is not natural, -- I disagree.

 

it has no existence except in the states of imbalance and disharmony. I

agree. That's where we are too. Ergo- the rotation of yin and yang and

transformation of elements.

(pain in this post refers to all kinds of pain; mental, physical, emotional,

spiritual etc)

I think pain is natural because; we are so fragile, our present existence is

so uncertain and temporary, and so much suffering exists in our little

bioshere. We can't expect to be forever blissful and wise just by avoiding the

'painful awareness' that life is hellish for so many creatures, and we play a

part in it, actively, or by neglect or omission.

Pain is variable and extremely relative, and subjective. But pain is

temporary too. The worst longest-lasting and illusive pain is

emotional/spiritual pain, because people often don't know they are suffering, or

they don't believe they could ever be happy. Not stupid happy---just free of

intensly obstructive bodily #10 hurting. They may not have connected to a place

where thier body feels comfortable, mind relaxed and quick, self image is ok-

not perfect but ok. They may never have woken up, jumped out of bed and did a

dance like a lunatic, just because they felt like it. Many can't.

If we can't feel pain, we can't know joy. Maybe both exist only in imbalance,

I'm not convinced that is true. Joy might be the most balanced natural state for

people. I would lean towards following my heart instead of feeling life is

dragging me along like an exhausted carcass to the jaws of the Vulture. You can

only do your best, then when/if the time comes, $%^ the hell with it. Don't

kill yourself worrying over things, and don't expect everything to be done for

you.

I am trying to remember the little quote.. " Change is unavoidable. Pain is

optional. "

Something like that. If that is what you mean, I guess I agree. Pain is hard

to define. This might be one of those semantic cul-de-sacs.

Pain is a prime fundamental stimulus. It steers us toward non-pain. If I eat

16 ounces of garlicy, peppery hummus before bed and didn't feel like crap next

morning, I wouldn't know not to do it again. etc etc sorry to be dumb.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mail is new and improved - Check it out!

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ho Dr. Holmes,

 

Chinese Medicine , " Dr. Holmes

Keikobad " <acuheal@e...> wrote:

> Pain is not natural, it has no existence except in the states of

imbalance and disharmony.

 

My own personal philosophy and view is not to deny that which is

obviously there in Life. Pain is as much part of life as is No Pain.

Pain is there so that our Mind knows that it is time to Change and

Learn. I know of no person who has never been in Pain. It is as

natural as any other feeling and emotion that we may endure in Life.

And when we are sucessful in ridding ourselves of one Pain - to be

sure another one is not far behind. It is Life and I accept it. :-)

 

Best,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Respecting your views, I maintain that what believe to be true, becomes

true.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

-

" Rich " <rfinkelstein

<Chinese Medicine >

Thursday, June 24, 2004 1:58 PM

Re: Digest Number 521 Tui-Na

 

 

> Ho Dr. Holmes,

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Dr. Holmes

> Keikobad " <acuheal@e...> wrote:

> > Pain is not natural, it has no existence except in the states of

> imbalance and disharmony.

>

> My own personal philosophy and view is not to deny that which is

> obviously there in Life. Pain is as much part of life as is No Pain.

> Pain is there so that our Mind knows that it is time to Change and

> Learn. I know of no person who has never been in Pain. It is as

> natural as any other feeling and emotion that we may endure in Life.

> And when we are sucessful in ridding ourselves of one Pain - to be

> sure another one is not far behind. It is Life and I accept it. :-)

>

[Guest guest]

Watch out for what you take to be true and inalienable.

 

It usually is.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

-

" mystir " <ykcul_ritsym

<Chinese Medicine >

Thursday, June 24, 2004 1:46 PM

Re: Digest Number 521 Tui-Na

 

 

> " Dr. Holmes Keikobad " <acuheal wrote:

>

> Pain is not natural, -- I disagree.

>

> it has no existence except in the states of imbalance and disharmony.

I agree. That's where we are too. Ergo- the rotation of yin and yang and

transformation of elements.

> (pain in this post refers to all kinds of pain; mental, physical,

emotional, spiritual etc)

[Guest guest]

" Dr. Holmes " <aryaone wrote:

>Watch out for what you take to be true and inalienable.

>It usually is.

 

I agree. I think so. At least for now. Tommorrow; who knows?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I believe that this is true aswell. Although i think it deals with

the wider issue of personal life, destiny and development more than

on a medical treatment level. If you believe suffering to be your

normal state of life then that's exactly what your gonna get. This

can be reversed to say, if you believe that your a healthy and

weathly then it will be so. How else do you explain good health,

long life, amazing near death escapes and winning the lotto? Intent,

belief structures and destiny.

 

I consider that if a massage, acupuncture or any other treatment is

painful it's because a negative act originated that disorder.

Therefore some pain (depending on a subjective awareness of pain as

i discussed before) is needed to re-align the disorder.

 

Attilio

 

mystir <ykcul_ritsym> wrote:

>

>

> " Dr. Holmes " <aryaone@e...> wrote:

> >Watch out for what you take to be true and inalienable.

> >It usually is.

>

> I agree. I think so. At least for now. Tommorrow; who knows?

[Guest guest]

> mystir:

> I agree. I think so. At least for now. Tommorrow; who knows?

>

>

 

Belief encompasses transitions of time and becomes unshakable doctrine,

so that in time nay change in it's structure or composition is well nigh

impossible.

 

When such a state arrives, fanaticism on one hand, and phobia on the

other, become the status quo.

 

Such a mind will not change, and will therefore have died, even when the

body in which it has abode lives and breathes.

 

Change, in health and in illness, is essential, and even within it's own

state,

the necessary structure which assures flux and an ebb.

 

Once I saw a building in an Eastern city, a large sprawling, many-gabled

edifice set in place on a hill, during the advent of the Mongols, centuries

ago.

 

The locals prided themselves on it's presence in their city, a marvelous

structure made entirely of wood, with fretwork balconies, wooded frontage

with incredible carvings, fantastic rooms with domed ceilings, tall doors

and wide windows which opened onto clever garden, watered by

hidden streams from the hills to the hinter.

 

It had not one nail, and was entirely made of snugly fitted joints.

 

I asked the question I was supposed to, why did it stand unscathed

when many other structures of stone and masonry had fallen to rubble

around it and had been built up several times.

 

The answer was fantastic. It bent to the winds, settled to the rains

and snow ever so little that one could not see it, but feel it and hear the

small creaks, season in and out. It had the right degree of give, and could

therefore 'take' all that the passing years could wreak, and stand

indestructible.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

> Attilio:

> I consider that if a massage, acupuncture or any other treatment is

> painful it's because a negative act originated that disorder.

> Therefore some pain (depending on a subjective awareness of pain as

> i discussed before) is needed to re-align the disorder.

>

>

 

To each his or her own.

 

I fear, while respecting Attilio's thinking, for the leeway this gives to

healers

who may themselves be unstable, mixed up and unfeeling, who as a matter of

course may cause varying degrees of pain to the ill, while professing to

heal.

 

Take even the degree of discomfort caused by different acupuncturists

using the same set of needles.

 

Some will place these by a well thought out sequence, with a soft hand

and a feeling heart, avoiding tender areas.

 

Other, and all of this is hypothetical, may slop them in willy nilly, with

little thought

to the trauma each jab is causing, mouthing words to the effect that, 'the

discomfort

will settle down, acupuncture does involve some pain, much like a

hypodermic does etc'.

 

Every seasoned practitioner knows that little is much, and the lightest

intervention in the qi field will bring the necessary adjustment, and as

they

grow older, they tend to lesser needles with shallower insertions, bartering

the

least trauma for the largest gain.

 

A treatment with those with a light hand is a memorable experience

of healing, just as the visit to another may be fraught with jab and turn

and

tear, as though one paid to be tortured.

 

I am thinking of the elderly, and the very small.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

Hi Dr Holmes,

 

Yes, you may well be right about experience showing that pain is not a part of

treatment. Personally, i don't have the experience to comment.

My views come from more theory than practice. I hope to rectify that soon.

 

What i have noticed is that many acupuncturists have different styles, some are

deep, others shallow, some painful to patients others not. What i can say is

that patients who are more 'sensitive' (in many ways others than mere touch),

often find the insertion of needles more painful than other less aware people. I

believe that this and other factors all play a part in determining a painful

acupuncture treatment.

 

Attilio

 

Keikobad " <acuheal wrote:

> Attilio:

> I consider that if a massage, acupuncture or any other treatment is

> painful it's because a negative act originated that disorder.

> Therefore some pain (depending on a subjective awareness of pain as

> i discussed before) is needed to re-align the disorder.

>

 

To each his or her own.

 

I fear, while respecting Attilio's thinking, for the leeway this gives to

healers

who may themselves be unstable, mixed up and unfeeling, who as a matter of

course may cause varying degrees of pain to the ill, while professing to

heal.

 

Take even the degree of discomfort caused by different acupuncturists

using the same set of needles.

 

Some will place these by a well thought out sequence, with a soft hand

and a feeling heart, avoiding tender areas.

 

Other, and all of this is hypothetical, may slop them in willy nilly, with

little thought

to the trauma each jab is causing, mouthing words to the effect that, 'the

discomfort

will settle down, acupuncture does involve some pain, much like a

hypodermic does etc'.

 

Every seasoned practitioner knows that little is much, and the lightest

intervention in the qi field will bring the necessary adjustment, and as

they

grow older, they tend to lesser needles with shallower insertions, bartering

the

least trauma for the largest gain.

 

A treatment with those with a light hand is a memorable experience

of healing, just as the visit to another may be fraught with jab and turn

and

tear, as though one paid to be tortured.

 

I am thinking of the elderly, and the very small.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

 

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

 

 

 

 

 

ALL-NEW Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself

 

 

[Guest guest]

> Attilio

> What i have noticed is that many acupuncturists have different styles,

some are deep, others shallow, some painful to

> patients others not. What i can say is that patients who are more

'sensitive' (in many ways others than mere touch), often

> find the insertion of needles more painful than other less aware people. I

believe that this and other factors all play a part in > determining a

painful acupuncture treatment.

>

>

 

Agreed.

 

Alternately, there may be some practitioners who are unfeeling and rough,

maybe because of their school of thought, training, or simply a personal

belief that some pain is part of the protocol.

 

Granted that the healing works by a needle inserted into the skin, and some

degree of pain is entailed.

 

With this as a watermark, then we have a range of practitioners, from the

ones who strive to be light handed, use smaller, thinner needles, find

points

which are not inherently painful, keep the patient informed and

participatory;

to those how are inherently rough, unfeeling, crude, peremptory,

authoritative,

monologic, and traumatizing.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.