Guest guest Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Hey Laurag because AKA stands for " also known as " . As for the EPI (external pathogenic pernicious influence invasion) question, I think adding minor (assistent, envoy) dosages of dang gui (can help with cough, moistening as well as blood xu), chuan xiong (can expell wind as it moves and nourishes blood, addresses head) you could support your patients root (she got sick because blood xu engenders wind). Just add these to the formula you have chosen for the branch. What do you think? shanna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 I think that sounds really good and makes a lot of sense. I've been trying to figure out when it becomes safe to add some yin/blood/kidney tonics to a formula when someone still has the tailend of a cold/flu. Is it pretty safe after the first few days? I always worry about tonifying the pathogen, which I've seen happen when tonifying too early. I do think that in her case the blood xu set her up for the wind invasion, as you said. Re: AKA, I have only one reaction: *blush* Laura Chinese Medicine , " shannahickle " <shannahickle> wrote: > Hey Laurag > because AKA stands for " also known as " . > As for the EPI (external pathogenic pernicious influence invasion) > question, I think adding minor (assistent, envoy) dosages of dang > gui (can help with cough, moistening as well as blood xu), chuan > xiong (can expell wind as it moves and nourishes blood, addresses > head) you could support your patients root (she got sick because > blood xu engenders wind). Just add these to the formula you have > chosen for the branch. What do you think? > shanna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 By the way, what do you think about adding Wu Wei Zi? Chinese Medicine , " shannahickle " <shannahickle> wrote: > Hey Laurag > because AKA stands for " also known as " . > As for the EPI (external pathogenic pernicious influence invasion) > question, I think adding minor (assistent, envoy) dosages of dang > gui (can help with cough, moistening as well as blood xu), chuan > xiong (can expell wind as it moves and nourishes blood, addresses > head) you could support your patients root (she got sick because > blood xu engenders wind). Just add these to the formula you have > chosen for the branch. What do you think? > shanna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 One more question---Do you use herbs diaphoretics all the way through until they no longer have any symptoms, or more just in the beginning? I can see a good argument for either perspective--on the one hand, releasing the surface would stop the pathogen from getting stuck. But on the other, releasing the surface could deplete the qi when it is already compromised. Laura Chinese Medicine , " shannahickle " <shannahickle> wrote: > Hey Laurag > because AKA stands for " also known as " . > As for the EPI (external pathogenic pernicious influence invasion) > question, I think adding minor (assistent, envoy) dosages of dang > gui (can help with cough, moistening as well as blood xu), chuan > xiong (can expell wind as it moves and nourishes blood, addresses > head) you could support your patients root (she got sick because > blood xu engenders wind). Just add these to the formula you have > chosen for the branch. What do you think? > shanna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 That will depend on the pattern, whether there are still exterior symptoms or not. This is where a familiarity with the Shang Han Lun six channel differentiation or Four Aspect Wen Bing pattern differentiation could be very useful. In tai yang stage exterior disease, you use exterior releasing medicinals. There should be aversion to wind or cold, a floating pulse, and thin white coat on the tongue. In more interior stages, such as yang ming channel, there will be no aversion to wind or cold, strong heat effusion or fever, sweating, a replete, rapid pulse, yellow tongue coating, and other symptoms of interior heat. Diaphoretics are discontinued once the pattern changes to a more interior one. On Jun 17, 2004, at 2:38 AM, heylaurag wrote: > One more question---Do you use herbs diaphoretics all the way through > until they no longer have any symptoms, or more just in the > beginning? I can see a good argument for either perspective--on the > one hand, releasing the surface would stop the pathogen from getting > stuck. But on the other, releasing the surface could deplete the qi > when it is already compromised. > > Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Hi Zev, Thanks for writing back, I really appreciate it. I would love to hear what someone with more experience than me thinks of this situation because it is unique in some ways and but it also has certain features that I see a lot and am confused about. The problem is that I rarely see things play out the way they are described in the Shang Han Lun or the Wen Bing. For instance, she is always cold even when she does not have an EPI. Her pulses are very weak, neither floating nor replete. And she has very few heat symptoms. Since this is a wind-dry condition she doesn't have much phlegm, and the little bit that she has is sometimes clear, sometimes yellow. However, she had occassional yellow phlegm even before the EPI too. She definitely had a lot of wind and dry symptoms earlier in the week---itchiness, some sneezing, dry nose. Her main symptom was pain in her left nostril and a little wheezing when she breathed out, not in. There was a dry, itchy, painful area there which she said had been there when she had a cold years ago and was given antibiotics which she didn't finish (she got it from her boyfriend and the antibiotics worked for him). Most of the wind symptoms have gone away, last I talked to her. But she does sneeze about once a day and her nose is still slightly itchy and dry and painful. Somehow it seems like the herbs have helped even though I didn't quite know what I was doing. She has yin and blood xu, yet she's cold, so it hasn't turned to heat. Its tough to clear cold AND dryness. The moistening herbs tend to be cold and the herbs to clear cold tend to be drying. The main herbs I'm using are: Wu Wei Zi, Dang Gui, Cong Bai, Su Zi, fang feng. I have used herbs specific to the nose like Xin Ye Hua or Cang Er Zi because she is not stuffed up, she just has the pain, and there's dryness. I was thinking of adding Bai He, but am concerned it will make the coldness worse. Thanks so much for listening, Laura Chinese Medicine , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > That will depend on the pattern, whether there are still exterior > symptoms or not. This is where a familiarity with the Shang Han Lun > six channel differentiation or Four Aspect Wen Bing pattern > differentiation could be very useful. > > In tai yang stage exterior disease, you use exterior releasing > medicinals. There should be aversion to wind or cold, a floating > pulse, and thin white coat on the tongue. > > In more interior stages, such as yang ming channel, there will be no > aversion to wind or cold, strong heat effusion or fever, sweating, a > replete, rapid pulse, yellow tongue coating, and other symptoms of > interior heat. > > Diaphoretics are discontinued once the pattern changes to a more > interior one. > > > On Jun 17, 2004, at 2:38 AM, heylaurag wrote: > > > One more question---Do you use herbs diaphoretics all the way through > > until they no longer have any symptoms, or more just in the > > beginning? I can see a good argument for either perspective--on the > > one hand, releasing the surface would stop the pathogen from getting > > stuck. But on the other, releasing the surface could deplete the qi > > when it is already compromised. > > > > Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Sounds like you're getting good results. You say she usually feels cold--is that hands and feet, limbs, lower body only? I have heard qi and blood deficiency can cause a person to feel like they have poor circulation in the limbs, especially if the heart is involved (we're referring to her constitution now, not the EPI (pathogen, sorry)). Perhaps huang qi is in order (no floating pulse, right? she's past the fever/chills, right?) Have you tried local acupuncture to help resolve the nose sore? I'm reaching here. Where does the yin xu you mentioned fit in to signs and symptoms, tongue and pulse? Wind dryness, of course, is not yin xu. Good luck, Shanna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Hey Laura, I have a suggestion that should work in theory. Here it goes: The dilemma is that your patient is cold and yin and blood deficient, and yet the moistening herbs tends to be cold and herbs that clears cold tends to be dry. To solve the problem, the patient needs to be warmed and yin and blood to be tonified. I suggest that you use moxa to warm the patient and use herbs to tonify the yin and blood. This way your patient can be tolerant to the moistening herbs while expelling the cold that is still left in her body. I suspect this patient's body maybe on the cold side to begin with. For moxa, use the following points: Ding Chuan (Extra Point), UB13 and UB17 - Stops the wheezing and coughing. Du4, SI3 and UB62 - warms the back side and open the Du channel. Ren4 and Ren6, Lu7 and K6 - warms the front side and opens the Ren channel. Note: UB=Urinary Bladder=BL . For herbs, use the following: Huang Jing, Go Ji Zi, Yu Ju - Tonify yin without being cold Bai Bu, Zi Wan, Kwan Dong Hua, Su Zi - Calm the wheezing and cough Sho Di Huang - Tonify yin and blood Let me know how well this works if you decide to run with this idea. Ming heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: Hi Zev, Thanks for writing back, I really appreciate it. I would love to hear what someone with more experience than me thinks of this situation because it is unique in some ways and but it also has certain features that I see a lot and am confused about. The problem is that I rarely see things play out the way they are described in the Shang Han Lun or the Wen Bing. For instance, she is always cold even when she does not have an EPI. Her pulses are very weak, neither floating nor replete. And she has very few heat symptoms. Since this is a wind-dry condition she doesn't have much phlegm, and the little bit that she has is sometimes clear, sometimes yellow. However, she had occassional yellow phlegm even before the EPI too. She definitely had a lot of wind and dry symptoms earlier in the week---itchiness, some sneezing, dry nose. Her main symptom was pain in her left nostril and a little wheezing when she breathed out, not in. There was a dry, itchy, painful area there which she said had been there when she had a cold years ago and was given antibiotics which she didn't finish (she got it from her boyfriend and the antibiotics worked for him). Most of the wind symptoms have gone away, last I talked to her. But she does sneeze about once a day and her nose is still slightly itchy and dry and painful. Somehow it seems like the herbs have helped even though I didn't quite know what I was doing. She has yin and blood xu, yet she's cold, so it hasn't turned to heat. Its tough to clear cold AND dryness. The moistening herbs tend to be cold and the herbs to clear cold tend to be drying. The main herbs I'm using are: Wu Wei Zi, Dang Gui, Cong Bai, Su Zi, fang feng. I have used herbs specific to the nose like Xin Ye Hua or Cang Er Zi because she is not stuffed up, she just has the pain, and there's dryness. I was thinking of adding Bai He, but am concerned it will make the coldness worse. Thanks so much for listening, Laura Chinese Medicine , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > That will depend on the pattern, whether there are still exterior > symptoms or not. This is where a familiarity with the Shang Han Lun > six channel differentiation or Four Aspect Wen Bing pattern > differentiation could be very useful. > > In tai yang stage exterior disease, you use exterior releasing > medicinals. There should be aversion to wind or cold, a floating > pulse, and thin white coat on the tongue. > > In more interior stages, such as yang ming channel, there will be no > aversion to wind or cold, strong heat effusion or fever, sweating, a > replete, rapid pulse, yellow tongue coating, and other symptoms of > interior heat. > > Diaphoretics are discontinued once the pattern changes to a more > interior one. > > > On Jun 17, 2004, at 2:38 AM, heylaurag wrote: > > > One more question---Do you use herbs diaphoretics all the way through > > until they no longer have any symptoms, or more just in the > > beginning? I can see a good argument for either perspective--on the > > one hand, releasing the surface would stop the pathogen from getting > > stuck. But on the other, releasing the surface could deplete the qi > > when it is already compromised. > > > > Laura Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 Hi Shanna and all, Great points you make. There's certainly blood xu, but perhaps not a lot of yin xu. I think there is some tendency toward yin xu in her liver and lung (for one thing she used to smoke a lot, and still does some), but blood xu is probably the bigger issue. Huang Qi and Dang Gui are so great for blood xu, perhaps I should add them. She does get heated and dry with certain herbs easily too though (like Huang qi), so that's part of the yin xu I've seen. And she sleeps lightly and has flushed cheeks. The problem with treating the wind dryness when she is cold is that they use yin tonics to treat the dyness, and the yin tonics make her cold. I did bitong for the nose, and I think it helped. She definitely feels better with some yin tonics, but cold. Laura Chinese Medicine , " shannahickle " <shannahickle> wrote: > Sounds like you're getting good results. You say she usually feels > cold--is that hands and feet, limbs, lower body only? I have heard > qi and blood deficiency can cause a person to feel like they have > poor circulation in the limbs, especially if the heart is involved > (we're referring to her constitution now, not the EPI (pathogen, > sorry)). Perhaps huang qi is in order (no floating pulse, right? > she's past the fever/chills, right?) Have you tried local > acupuncture to help resolve the nose sore? I'm reaching here. Where > does the yin xu you mentioned fit in to signs and symptoms, tongue > and pulse? Wind dryness, of course, is not yin xu. > Good luck, Shanna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 > Laura: > I did bitong for the nose, and I think > it helped. She definitely feels better with some yin tonics, but > cold. > > What is this bitong process? Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 Hi Ming, These are really great ideas, thank you. I've never heard of doing moxa on Lu 7/K6. Would you just use stick moxa on these points, or needle moxa, or rice grain moxa? I'm wondering whether the patient still needs herbs for wind because she still has slightly itchy eyes and nose? Or will the blood/yin tonics take care of that by tonifying? How long should one keep diaphoretics in a formula? Also, since Shu Di Huang can be damp-producing and cloying, I was thinking of replacing it with He Shou Wu, an herb that I use a lot and am surprised isn't used more. Thanks! Laura Chinese Medicine , " Ming H. Lee " <aceqihealer> wrote: > Hey Laura, > > I have a suggestion that should work in theory. Here it goes: > > The dilemma is that your patient is cold and yin and blood deficient, and yet the moistening herbs tends to be cold and herbs that clears cold tends to be dry. > > To solve the problem, the patient needs to be warmed and yin and blood to be tonified. > > I suggest that you use moxa to warm the patient and use herbs to tonify the yin and blood. This way your patient can be tolerant to the moistening herbs while expelling the cold that is still left in her body. I suspect this patient's body maybe on the cold side to begin with. > > For moxa, use the following points: > > Ding Chuan (Extra Point), UB13 and UB17 - Stops the wheezing and coughing. > Du4, SI3 and UB62 - warms the back side and open the Du channel. > Ren4 and Ren6, Lu7 and K6 - warms the front side and opens the Ren channel. > > Note: UB=Urinary Bladder=BL . > > For herbs, use the following: > > Huang Jing, Go Ji Zi, Yu Ju - Tonify yin without being cold > Bai Bu, Zi Wan, Kwan Dong Hua, Su Zi - Calm the wheezing and cough > Sho Di Huang - Tonify yin and blood > > Let me know how well this works if you decide to run with this idea. > > Ming > > heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > Hi Zev, > > Thanks for writing back, I really appreciate it. I would love to > hear what someone with more experience than me thinks of this > situation because it is unique in some ways and but it also has > certain features that I see a lot and am confused about. > > The problem is that I rarely see things play out the way they are > described in the Shang Han Lun or the Wen Bing. For instance, she is > always cold even when she does not have an EPI. Her pulses are very > weak, neither floating nor replete. And she has very few heat > symptoms. Since this is a wind-dry condition she doesn't have much > phlegm, and the little bit that she has is sometimes clear, sometimes > yellow. However, she had occassional yellow phlegm even before the > EPI too. She definitely had a lot of wind and dry symptoms earlier > in the week---itchiness, some sneezing, dry nose. Her main symptom > was pain in her left nostril and a little wheezing when she breathed > out, not in. There was a dry, itchy, painful area there which she > said had been there when she had a cold years ago and was given > antibiotics which she didn't finish (she got it from her boyfriend > and the antibiotics worked for him). > > Most of the wind symptoms have gone away, last I talked to her. But > she does sneeze about once a day and her nose is still slightly itchy > and dry and painful. Somehow it seems like the herbs have helped > even though I didn't quite know what I was doing. > > She has yin and blood xu, yet she's cold, so it hasn't turned to > heat. Its tough to clear cold AND dryness. The moistening herbs > tend to be cold and the herbs to clear cold tend to be drying. The > main herbs I'm using are: Wu Wei Zi, Dang Gui, Cong Bai, Su Zi, fang > feng. I have used herbs specific to the nose like Xin Ye Hua or Cang > Er Zi because she is not stuffed up, she just has the pain, and > there's dryness. I was thinking of adding Bai He, but am concerned > it will make the coldness worse. > > Thanks so much for listening, > > Laura > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " > <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > That will depend on the pattern, whether there are still exterior > > symptoms or not. This is where a familiarity with the Shang Han > Lun > > six channel differentiation or Four Aspect Wen Bing pattern > > differentiation could be very useful. > > > > In tai yang stage exterior disease, you use exterior releasing > > medicinals. There should be aversion to wind or cold, a floating > > pulse, and thin white coat on the tongue. > > > > In more interior stages, such as yang ming channel, there will be > no > > aversion to wind or cold, strong heat effusion or fever, sweating, > a > > replete, rapid pulse, yellow tongue coating, and other symptoms of > > interior heat. > > > > Diaphoretics are discontinued once the pattern changes to a more > > interior one. > > > > > > On Jun 17, 2004, at 2:38 AM, heylaurag wrote: > > > > > One more question---Do you use herbs diaphoretics all the way > through > > > until they no longer have any symptoms, or more just in the > > > beginning? I can see a good argument for either perspective-- on > the > > > one hand, releasing the surface would stop the pathogen from > getting > > > stuck. But on the other, releasing the surface could deplete the > qi > > > when it is already compromised. > > > > > > Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2004 Report Share Posted June 19, 2004 Laura, For moxa, it doesn't matter whether you use stick or needle. Use the method that you feel most comfortable with so that you can control the burn effectively thus not burn the patient. Diaphoretics are never meant for long term use. They should be discontinued when you determined that the patient's cold symptoms has just about disappeared. Itchy eyes and nose can be anything, but I think in this case they are more due to dryness. By tonifying the patient's yin, these symptoms should improve. He Shou Wu is also a great idea, but I think Sho Di Huang is stronger in tonifying yin, blood, and jin, and more versatile in this case. If you are concern about Sho Di Huang's damp-producing possibilities, you can do either one of two (or both) things: 1. Moxa UB20 and/or Sp6 or Sp9. 2. Add Dang Shen (i.e. Codonopsis pilosula) and Gan Cao to the formula. This should help. Let me know how it turns out. Ming heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: Hi Ming, These are really great ideas, thank you. I've never heard of doing moxa on Lu 7/K6. Would you just use stick moxa on these points, or needle moxa, or rice grain moxa? I'm wondering whether the patient still needs herbs for wind because she still has slightly itchy eyes and nose? Or will the blood/yin tonics take care of that by tonifying? How long should one keep diaphoretics in a formula? Also, since Shu Di Huang can be damp-producing and cloying, I was thinking of replacing it with He Shou Wu, an herb that I use a lot and am surprised isn't used more. Thanks! Laura Chinese Medicine , " Ming H. Lee " <aceqihealer> wrote: > Hey Laura, > > I have a suggestion that should work in theory. Here it goes: > > The dilemma is that your patient is cold and yin and blood deficient, and yet the moistening herbs tends to be cold and herbs that clears cold tends to be dry. > > To solve the problem, the patient needs to be warmed and yin and blood to be tonified. > > I suggest that you use moxa to warm the patient and use herbs to tonify the yin and blood. This way your patient can be tolerant to the moistening herbs while expelling the cold that is still left in her body. I suspect this patient's body maybe on the cold side to begin with. > > For moxa, use the following points: > > Ding Chuan (Extra Point), UB13 and UB17 - Stops the wheezing and coughing. > Du4, SI3 and UB62 - warms the back side and open the Du channel. > Ren4 and Ren6, Lu7 and K6 - warms the front side and opens the Ren channel. > > Note: UB=Urinary Bladder=BL . > > For herbs, use the following: > > Huang Jing, Go Ji Zi, Yu Ju - Tonify yin without being cold > Bai Bu, Zi Wan, Kwan Dong Hua, Su Zi - Calm the wheezing and cough > Sho Di Huang - Tonify yin and blood > > Let me know how well this works if you decide to run with this idea. > > Ming > > heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > Hi Zev, > > Thanks for writing back, I really appreciate it. I would love to > hear what someone with more experience than me thinks of this > situation because it is unique in some ways and but it also has > certain features that I see a lot and am confused about. > > The problem is that I rarely see things play out the way they are > described in the Shang Han Lun or the Wen Bing. For instance, she is > always cold even when she does not have an EPI. Her pulses are very > weak, neither floating nor replete. And she has very few heat > symptoms. Since this is a wind-dry condition she doesn't have much > phlegm, and the little bit that she has is sometimes clear, sometimes > yellow. However, she had occassional yellow phlegm even before the > EPI too. She definitely had a lot of wind and dry symptoms earlier > in the week---itchiness, some sneezing, dry nose. Her main symptom > was pain in her left nostril and a little wheezing when she breathed > out, not in. There was a dry, itchy, painful area there which she > said had been there when she had a cold years ago and was given > antibiotics which she didn't finish (she got it from her boyfriend > and the antibiotics worked for him). > > Most of the wind symptoms have gone away, last I talked to her. But > she does sneeze about once a day and her nose is still slightly itchy > and dry and painful. Somehow it seems like the herbs have helped > even though I didn't quite know what I was doing. > > She has yin and blood xu, yet she's cold, so it hasn't turned to > heat. Its tough to clear cold AND dryness. The moistening herbs > tend to be cold and the herbs to clear cold tend to be drying. The > main herbs I'm using are: Wu Wei Zi, Dang Gui, Cong Bai, Su Zi, fang > feng. I have used herbs specific to the nose like Xin Ye Hua or Cang > Er Zi because she is not stuffed up, she just has the pain, and > there's dryness. I was thinking of adding Bai He, but am concerned > it will make the coldness worse. > > Thanks so much for listening, > > Laura > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " > <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > That will depend on the pattern, whether there are still exterior > > symptoms or not. This is where a familiarity with the Shang Han > Lun > > six channel differentiation or Four Aspect Wen Bing pattern > > differentiation could be very useful. > > > > In tai yang stage exterior disease, you use exterior releasing > > medicinals. There should be aversion to wind or cold, a floating > > pulse, and thin white coat on the tongue. > > > > In more interior stages, such as yang ming channel, there will be > no > > aversion to wind or cold, strong heat effusion or fever, sweating, > a > > replete, rapid pulse, yellow tongue coating, and other symptoms of > > interior heat. > > > > Diaphoretics are discontinued once the pattern changes to a more > > interior one. > > > > > > On Jun 17, 2004, at 2:38 AM, heylaurag wrote: > > > > > One more question---Do you use herbs diaphoretics all the way > through > > > until they no longer have any symptoms, or more just in the > > > beginning? I can see a good argument for either perspective-- on > the > > > one hand, releasing the surface would stop the pathogen from > getting > > > stuck. But on the other, releasing the surface could deplete the > qi > > > when it is already compromised. > > > > > > Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2004 Report Share Posted June 19, 2004 Hi Ming, Thanks so much for your ideas. I integrated them into the treatment, and so far so good! She's warmer and feeling better. She is definitely on the mend. One thing though, she still has wheezing when she breathes out, and that doesn't seem to be any better. I think she said that wheezing was part of the problem when she had this cold several years ago too (she got it from her boyfriend). She doesn't really have a cough. I have herbs in there to stop cough and wheezing, and of course some of the points help. So perhaps that will be enough and it just is going to take a little time. Let me know if you think that I should change anything, otherwise thanks so much for your time and thoughts! I can tell that you are very talented at what you do. Laura Chinese Medicine , " Ming H. Lee " <aceqihealer> wrote: > Laura, > > For moxa, it doesn't matter whether you use stick or needle. Use the method that you feel most comfortable with so that you can control the burn effectively thus not burn the patient. > > Diaphoretics are never meant for long term use. They should be discontinued when you determined that the patient's cold symptoms has just about disappeared. Itchy eyes and nose can be anything, but I think in this case they are more due to dryness. By tonifying the patient's yin, these symptoms should improve. > > He Shou Wu is also a great idea, but I think Sho Di Huang is stronger in tonifying yin, blood, and jin, and more versatile in this case. If you are concern about Sho Di Huang's damp-producing possibilities, you can do either one of two (or both) things: > > 1. Moxa UB20 and/or Sp6 or Sp9. > 2. Add Dang Shen (i.e. Codonopsis pilosula) and Gan Cao to the formula. > > This should help. Let me know how it turns out. > > Ming > > > heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > Hi Ming, > > These are really great ideas, thank you. I've never heard of doing > moxa on Lu 7/K6. Would you just use stick moxa on these points, or > needle moxa, or rice grain moxa? I'm wondering whether the patient > still needs herbs for wind because she still has slightly itchy eyes > and nose? Or will the blood/yin tonics take care of that by > tonifying? How long should one keep diaphoretics in a formula? > Also, since Shu Di Huang can be damp-producing and cloying, I was > thinking of replacing it with He Shou Wu, an herb that I use a lot > and am surprised isn't used more. Thanks! > > Laura > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Ming H. Lee " > <aceqihealer> wrote: > > Hey Laura, > > > > I have a suggestion that should work in theory. Here it goes: > > > > The dilemma is that your patient is cold and yin and blood > deficient, and yet the moistening herbs tends to be cold and herbs > that clears cold tends to be dry. > > > > To solve the problem, the patient needs to be warmed and yin and > blood to be tonified. > > > > I suggest that you use moxa to warm the patient and use herbs to > tonify the yin and blood. This way your patient can be tolerant to > the moistening herbs while expelling the cold that is still left in > her body. I suspect this patient's body maybe on the cold side to > begin with. > > > > For moxa, use the following points: > > > > Ding Chuan (Extra Point), UB13 and UB17 - Stops the wheezing and > coughing. > > Du4, SI3 and UB62 - warms the back side and open the Du channel. > > Ren4 and Ren6, Lu7 and K6 - warms the front side and opens the Ren > channel. > > > > Note: UB=Urinary Bladder=BL . > > > > For herbs, use the following: > > > > Huang Jing, Go Ji Zi, Yu Ju - Tonify yin without being cold > > Bai Bu, Zi Wan, Kwan Dong Hua, Su Zi - Calm the wheezing and cough > > Sho Di Huang - Tonify yin and blood > > > > Let me know how well this works if you decide to run with this idea. > > > > Ming > > > > heylaurag <heylaurag@h...> wrote: > > Hi Zev, > > > > Thanks for writing back, I really appreciate it. I would love to > > hear what someone with more experience than me thinks of this > > situation because it is unique in some ways and but it also has > > certain features that I see a lot and am confused about. > > > > The problem is that I rarely see things play out the way they are > > described in the Shang Han Lun or the Wen Bing. For instance, she > is > > always cold even when she does not have an EPI. Her pulses are > very > > weak, neither floating nor replete. And she has very few heat > > symptoms. Since this is a wind-dry condition she doesn't have much > > phlegm, and the little bit that she has is sometimes clear, > sometimes > > yellow. However, she had occassional yellow phlegm even before the > > EPI too. She definitely had a lot of wind and dry symptoms earlier > > in the week---itchiness, some sneezing, dry nose. Her main symptom > > was pain in her left nostril and a little wheezing when she > breathed > > out, not in. There was a dry, itchy, painful area there which she > > said had been there when she had a cold years ago and was given > > antibiotics which she didn't finish (she got it from her boyfriend > > and the antibiotics worked for him). > > > > Most of the wind symptoms have gone away, last I talked to her. > But > > she does sneeze about once a day and her nose is still slightly > itchy > > and dry and painful. Somehow it seems like the herbs have helped > > even though I didn't quite know what I was doing. > > > > She has yin and blood xu, yet she's cold, so it hasn't turned to > > heat. Its tough to clear cold AND dryness. The moistening herbs > > tend to be cold and the herbs to clear cold tend to be drying. The > > main herbs I'm using are: Wu Wei Zi, Dang Gui, Cong Bai, Su Zi, > fang > > feng. I have used herbs specific to the nose like Xin Ye Hua or > Cang > > Er Zi because she is not stuffed up, she just has the pain, and > > there's dryness. I was thinking of adding Bai He, but am concerned > > it will make the coldness worse. > > > > Thanks so much for listening, > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev > Rosenberg " > > <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > > That will depend on the pattern, whether there are still exterior > > > symptoms or not. This is where a familiarity with the Shang Han > > Lun > > > six channel differentiation or Four Aspect Wen Bing pattern > > > differentiation could be very useful. > > > > > > In tai yang stage exterior disease, you use exterior releasing > > > medicinals. There should be aversion to wind or cold, a floating > > > pulse, and thin white coat on the tongue. > > > > > > In more interior stages, such as yang ming channel, there will be > > no > > > aversion to wind or cold, strong heat effusion or fever, > sweating, > > a > > > replete, rapid pulse, yellow tongue coating, and other symptoms > of > > > interior heat. > > > > > > Diaphoretics are discontinued once the pattern changes to a more > > > interior one. > > > > > > > > > On Jun 17, 2004, at 2:38 AM, heylaurag wrote: > > > > > > > One more question---Do you use herbs diaphoretics all the way > > through > > > > until they no longer have any symptoms, or more just in the > > > > beginning? I can see a good argument for either perspective-- > on > > the > > > > one hand, releasing the surface would stop the pathogen from > > getting > > > > stuck. But on the other, releasing the surface could deplete > the > > qi > > > > when it is already compromised. > > > > > > > > Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2004 Report Share Posted June 19, 2004 Hey Laura g Have you tried adding xing ren? Also in Practical Therapeutics of by Yan Wu, under the dx asthma, he recommends for wind cold type where " perspiration has been induced without any evident relief of the asthma, the prescription is changed to regulate and harmonize construction and defense qi, diffuse the lung and calm wheezing. " Your earlier intuition of gui zhi tang may have been very close to right on. The suggested formula is Gui Zhi Jia Hou Po Xing Ren Tang as follows: gui zhi 9g bai shao yao 9g hou po 6g xing ren 6g zhi gan cao 6g sheng jiang 9g da zao 3pc Good luck and thanks for stimulating intelligent dialogue. thanks, shanna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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