Guest guest Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Hi All, & Hi Attilio, 20g Chaosanxian 10g Gandilong 10g Laifuzi 10g Lianqiao 10g Niubangzi 10g Yuxingcao 10g Zisuye 6g Chantui 6g Jiegeng 6g Xingren 6g Zhiqiao 3g Gancao 3g Jineijin 2g Zhimahuang Attilio: (1) I cannot find either Gandilong or Chaosanxian in my notes, or in the RMHI Database. What are they? Any details on their Herb Classification, main actions, channels, uses, contraindications, etc? Is Gandilong a variant of Dilong-Lumbricus? Google has only 1 hit for gan-di-long, but gives no details: http://www.siom.edu/resources/texts/translations/Rhinitis.html It has a few for chao-san-xian, but that seems to be a vegetable dish with three meats or three seafoods. (2) The total is weight of the formula 112g. Is that the amount per day, or divided over how many days? (3) Were these as dried crude herbs? Best regards, Phil >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Attilio wrote: > Well, it's the last week of my degree and I'm in paediatrics. The > average age of children in the outpatient ward is 4. I think this > may be due to the fact that the number 4 (Si) in a different tone > also means death and that alot of parents become paranoid around > this age, who knows. What I've noticed is that alot of the complaints are either cough or fever or both. Alot of formulas are given out, usually based on Yin Qiao Tang. However, I was interested in the dosage element. Strictly speaking, the dosage is half of the adult dose for 4 year olds and under and three-quarters the adult dose for 5 - 16 year olds. I thought though, that the doses are still a little high for infants. Of course, this could just be racial differences in dose levels, but I wanted to ask the group what they thought. A typical example of a case is given below: Boy: 4: Main Complaint: Cough which is worse in the evening for 5 days. Symptoms: Poor appetite, bowels are a little dry for 2 days, the cough is slight and started after a common cold. His throat is a little red whilst his sleep is normal. Syndrome differentiation: Wind- Heat. Formula: Zhi Ma Huang 2g, Xing Ren 6g, Zi Su Ye 10g, Niu Bang Zi 10g, Yu Xing Cao 10g, Jie Geng 6g, Zhi Qiao 6g, Lai Fu Zi 10g, Gan Di Long 10g, Lian Qiao 10g, Chan Tui 6g, Chao San Xian 20g, Ji Nei Jin 3g and Gan Cao 3g. What do members think of the dosage levels? Also is it common for children to present mainly Wind-Heat patterns? Kind regards Attilio www.chinesedoctor.co.uk <http://www.chinesedoctor.co.uk/> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Phil, I think that gan may refer to " dried' " . In Pao Zhi by Sionneau; Gan or Gan Sheng is the dried form of a herb eg. Gan Di Huang (fresh dried radix rehmanniae). Dry Uncooked = gan sheng dry stir-fried till scorched = gan chia jiao dry stir-fried till carbonised = gan chao tan It terms of Gandilong, this may simply be natural drying of dilong. No luck however with chao san xian in any of me references either. Steve On 15/06/2004, at 1:44 AM, wrote: > Hi All, & Hi Attilio, > > 20g Chaosanxian > 10g Gandilong > 10g Laifuzi > 10g Lianqiao > 10g Niubangzi > 10g Yuxingcao > 10g Zisuye > 6g Chantui > 6g Jiegeng > 6g Xingren > 6g Zhiqiao > 3g Gancao > 3g Jineijin > 2g Zhimahuang > > Attilio: > (1) I cannot find either Gandilong or Chaosanxian in my notes, or in > the RMHI Database. What are they? Any details on their Herb > Classification, main actions, channels, uses, contraindications, > etc? Is Gandilong a variant of Dilong-Lumbricus? > > Google has only 1 hit for gan-di-long, but gives no details: > http://www.siom.edu/resources/texts/translations/Rhinitis.html It > has a few for chao-san-xian, but that seems to be a vegetable dish > with three meats or three seafoods. > > (2) The total is weight of the formula 112g. Is that the amount per > day, or divided over how many days? > > (3) Were these as dried crude herbs? > > Best regards, > Phil Dr. Steven J Slater Practitioner and Acupuncturist Mobile: 0418 343 545 chinese_medicine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Gan Di Long is dried earth worm. Chao San Xian is stir-fried San Xian. San means three. This refers to the often-used-together three herbs: Mai Ya, Gu Ya, and Shen Qu. Much more often, I see Jiao San Xian, rather than Chao San Xian, where Jiao means stir fried till a little charcoaled. Mike L. Steven Slater <dragonslive wrote: Phil, I think that gan may refer to " dried' " . In Pao Zhi by Sionneau; Gan or Gan Sheng is the dried form of a herb eg. Gan Di Huang (fresh dried radix rehmanniae). Dry Uncooked = gan sheng dry stir-fried till scorched = gan chia jiao dry stir-fried till carbonised = gan chao tan It terms of Gandilong, this may simply be natural drying of dilong. No luck however with chao san xian in any of me references either. Steve On 15/06/2004, at 1:44 AM, wrote: > Hi All, & Hi Attilio, > > 20g Chaosanxian > 10g Gandilong > 10g Laifuzi > 10g Lianqiao > 10g Niubangzi > 10g Yuxingcao > 10g Zisuye > 6g Chantui > 6g Jiegeng > 6g Xingren > 6g Zhiqiao > 3g Gancao > 3g Jineijin > 2g Zhimahuang > > Attilio: > (1) I cannot find either Gandilong or Chaosanxian in my notes, or in > the RMHI Database. What are they? Any details on their Herb > Classification, main actions, channels, uses, contraindications, > etc? Is Gandilong a variant of Dilong-Lumbricus? > > Google has only 1 hit for gan-di-long, but gives no details: > http://www.siom.edu/resources/texts/translations/Rhinitis.html It > has a few for chao-san-xian, but that seems to be a vegetable dish > with three meats or three seafoods. > > (2) The total is weight of the formula 112g. Is that the amount per > day, or divided over how many days? > > (3) Were these as dried crude herbs? > > Best regards, > Phil Dr. Steven J Slater Practitioner and Acupuncturist Mobile: 0418 343 545 chinese_medicine Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Hi Phil, Gan Di Long is dry Di Long. Chao San Xian is shorthand for stir-fired Shenqu, ShanZha and MaiYa. Sorry, should of broken that one down before I posted it. I'm 99% sure that the dosage was 1 bag per day, so yes 112g per day. The medicines were of the normal loose variety. Kind regards Attilio www.chinesedoctor.co.uk <http://www.chinesedoctor.co.uk/> [] 14 June 2004 16:44 Chinese Medicine Herb dosage for children Hi All, & Hi Attilio, 20g Chaosanxian 10g Gandilong 10g Laifuzi 10g Lianqiao 10g Niubangzi 10g Yuxingcao 10g Zisuye 6g Chantui 6g Jiegeng 6g Xingren 6g Zhiqiao 3g Gancao 3g Jineijin 2g Zhimahuang Attilio: (1) I cannot find either Gandilong or Chaosanxian in my notes, or in the RMHI Database. What are they? Any details on their Herb Classification, main actions, channels, uses, contraindications, etc? Is Gandilong a variant of Dilong-Lumbricus? Google has only 1 hit for gan-di-long, but gives no details: http://www.siom.edu/resources/texts/translations/Rhinitis.html It has a few for chao-san-xian, but that seems to be a vegetable dish with three meats or three seafoods. (2) The total is weight of the formula 112g. Is that the amount per day, or divided over how many days? (3) Were these as dried crude herbs? Best regards, Phil >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Attilio wrote: > Well, it's the last week of my degree and I'm in paediatrics. The > average age of children in the outpatient ward is 4. I think this > may be due to the fact that the number 4 (Si) in a different tone > also means death and that alot of parents become paranoid around > this age, who knows. What I've noticed is that alot of the complaints are either cough or fever or both. Alot of formulas are given out, usually based on Yin Qiao Tang. However, I was interested in the dosage element. Strictly speaking, the dosage is half of the adult dose for 4 year olds and under and three-quarters the adult dose for 5 - 16 year olds. I thought though, that the doses are still a little high for infants. Of course, this could just be racial differences in dose levels, but I wanted to ask the group what they thought. A typical example of a case is given below: Boy: 4: Main Complaint: Cough which is worse in the evening for 5 days. Symptoms: Poor appetite, bowels are a little dry for 2 days, the cough is slight and started after a common cold. His throat is a little red whilst his sleep is normal. Syndrome differentiation: Wind- Heat. Formula: Zhi Ma Huang 2g, Xing Ren 6g, Zi Su Ye 10g, Niu Bang Zi 10g, Yu Xing Cao 10g, Jie Geng 6g, Zhi Qiao 6g, Lai Fu Zi 10g, Gan Di Long 10g, Lian Qiao 10g, Chan Tui 6g, Chao San Xian 20g, Ji Nei Jin 3g and Gan Cao 3g. What do members think of the dosage levels? Also is it common for children to present mainly Wind-Heat patterns? Kind regards Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Hi Phil, Gan Di Long is dry Di Long. Chao San Xian is shorthand for stir- fired Shenqu, ShanZha and MaiYa. Sorry, should of broken that one down before I posted it. I'm 99% sure that the dosage was 1 bag per day, so yes 112g per day. The medicines were of the normal loose variety. Kind regards Attilio " " <@e...> wrote: > Hi All, & Hi Attilio, > > 20g Chaosanxian > 10g Gandilong > 10g Laifuzi > 10g Lianqiao > 10g Niubangzi > 10g Yuxingcao > 10g Zisuye > 6g Chantui > 6g Jiegeng > 6g Xingren > 6g Zhiqiao > 3g Gancao > 3g Jineijin > 2g Zhimahuang > > Attilio: > (1) I cannot find either Gandilong or Chaosanxian in my notes, or in > the RMHI Database. What are they? Any details on their Herb > Classification, main actions, channels, uses, contraindications, > etc? Is Gandilong a variant of Dilong-Lumbricus? > > Google has only 1 hit for gan-di-long, but gives no details: > http://www.siom.edu/resources/texts/translations/Rhinitis.html It > has a few for chao-san-xian, but that seems to be a vegetable dish > with three meats or three seafoods. > > (2) The total is weight of the formula 112g. Is that the amount per > day, or divided over how many days? > > (3) Were these as dried crude herbs? > > Best regards, > Phil > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Attilio wrote: > > Well, it's the last week of my degree and I'm in paediatrics. The > > average age of children in the outpatient ward is 4. I think this > > may be due to the fact that the number 4 (Si) in a different tone > > also means death and that alot of parents become paranoid around > > this age, who knows. > > What I've noticed is that alot of the complaints are either cough or > fever or both. Alot of formulas are given out, usually based on Yin > Qiao Tang. However, I was interested in the dosage element. > Strictly speaking, the dosage is half of the adult dose for 4 year > olds and under and three-quarters the adult dose for 5 - 16 year > olds. I thought though, that the doses are still a little high for > infants. Of course, this could just be racial differences in dose > levels, but I wanted to ask the group what they thought. A typical > example of a case is given below: > > Boy: 4: Main Complaint: Cough which is worse in the evening for 5 > days. Symptoms: Poor appetite, bowels are a little dry for 2 days, > the cough is slight and started after a common cold. His throat is a > little red whilst his sleep is normal. Syndrome differentiation: Wind- > Heat. Formula: Zhi Ma Huang 2g, Xing Ren 6g, Zi Su Ye 10g, Niu > Bang Zi 10g, Yu Xing Cao 10g, Jie Geng 6g, Zhi Qiao 6g, Lai Fu Zi > 10g, Gan Di Long 10g, Lian Qiao 10g, Chan Tui 6g, Chao San Xian > 20g, Ji Nei Jin 3g and Gan Cao 3g. What do members think of the > dosage levels? Also is it common for children to present mainly > Wind-Heat patterns? Kind regards Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Hi Attilio, Steve & All, Attilio & Steve, many thanks for the clarification. Steve Slater wrote: > I think that gan may refer to " dried' " . In Pao Zhi by Sionneau; > Gan or Gan Sheng is the dried form of a herb, e.g. Gandihuang > (fresh dried Rx Rehmanniae). Dry Uncooked = gan sheng; dry > stir-fried till scorched = gan chia jiao; dry stir-fried till > carbonised = gan chao tan Below, please see an edited version of Attilio's original mail that includes his additional details. I am amazed at such a high dose (112g crude herbs/d) for small children. Is this usual, or is it just for this particular formula? You also said that the typical adult dose for 4-year-olds is about half of the adult dose. Does this mean that the adult dose could be c 224g of crude herbs/day as decoction? Best regards, Phil PS: Attilio, I wish you great suvccess in your degree, and also in your future life as a TCM Practitioner. Go for it. You have what it takes - openness, tolerance, friendliness, curiosity, great basic knowledge and the desire to continue to learn. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Edited version of Attilio's notes: It's the last week of my degree and I'm in paediatrics. The average age of children in the outpatient ward is 4. This may be due to the fact that the number 4 (Si) in a different tone also means death and that many parents become paranoid around this age. Many of the complaints are either cough or fever or both. Many formulas are used, usually based on Yin Qiao Tang. I was interested in the dosage element. Strictly speaking, the dosage is half of the adult dose for 4 year olds and under and three- quarters the adult dose for 5-16 year olds. I thought though, that the doses are still a little high for infants. Of course, this could just be racial differences in dose levels, but I wanted to ask the group what they thought. A typical example of a case is given below: Boy: 4: Main Complaint: Cough which is worse in the evening for 5 days. Symptoms: Poor appetite, bowels are a little dry for 2 days, the cough is slight and started after a common cold. His throat is a little red whilst his sleep is normal. Syndrome differentiation: Wind- Heat. Formula: 20g Chaosanxian (stirfried mix of Shenqu + Shanzha + Maiya), 10g Gandilong (Dilong, dry), 10g Laifuzi, 10g Lianqiao, 10g Niubangzi, 10g Yuxingcao, 10g Zisuye, 6g Chantui, 6g Jiegeng, 6g Xingren, 6g Zhiqiao, 3g Gancao, 3g Jineijin, 2g Zhimahuang. TOTAL 112g/bag, as loose herbs. Dose: 1 bag/day as decoction What do members think of the dosage levels? Also is it common for children to present mainly Wind-Heat patterns? Kind regards Attilio >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Hi Phil, Firstly, thank you for your kind words. I'll do my best to be a half-competent practitioner. Yes, this was the usual dosage for children. I thought it was a bit high myself, hence I asked the group what they thought. I've looked through my notes and seen that the adult dosage ranges between 130g to 230g depending upon the condition being treated. Not so long back we discussed dosage in TCM, it really is a strange beast with many practitioners having different theories as to what is the correct dosage. Maybe RCTs will try and find some focus in this misty area, although I don't believe it will ever find a fixed rate as there are far too many variables to take into account. Kind regards Attilio www.chinesedoctor.co.uk <http://www.chinesedoctor.co.uk/> [] 15 June 2004 21:56 traditional_Chinese_Medicine Re: Herb dosage for children Hi Attilio, Steve & All, Attilio & Steve, many thanks for the clarification. Steve Slater wrote: > I think that gan may refer to " dried' " . In Pao Zhi by Sionneau; > Gan or Gan Sheng is the dried form of a herb, e.g. Gandihuang > (fresh dried Rx Rehmanniae). Dry Uncooked = gan sheng; dry > stir-fried till scorched = gan chia jiao; dry stir-fried till > carbonised = gan chao tan Below, please see an edited version of Attilio's original mail that includes his additional details. I am amazed at such a high dose (112g crude herbs/d) for small children. Is this usual, or is it just for this particular formula? You also said that the typical adult dose for 4-year-olds is about half of the adult dose. Does this mean that the adult dose could be c 224g of crude herbs/day as decoction? Best regards, Phil PS: Attilio, I wish you great suvccess in your degree, and also in your future life as a TCM Practitioner. Go for it. You have what it takes - openness, tolerance, friendliness, curiosity, great basic knowledge and the desire to continue to learn. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Edited version of Attilio's notes: It's the last week of my degree and I'm in paediatrics. The average age of children in the outpatient ward is 4. This may be due to the fact that the number 4 (Si) in a different tone also means death and that many parents become paranoid around this age. Many of the complaints are either cough or fever or both. Many formulas are used, usually based on Yin Qiao Tang. I was interested in the dosage element. Strictly speaking, the dosage is half of the adult dose for 4 year olds and under and three- quarters the adult dose for 5-16 year olds. I thought though, that the doses are still a little high for infants. Of course, this could just be racial differences in dose levels, but I wanted to ask the group what they thought. A typical example of a case is given below: Boy: 4: Main Complaint: Cough which is worse in the evening for 5 days. Symptoms: Poor appetite, bowels are a little dry for 2 days, the cough is slight and started after a common cold. His throat is a little red whilst his sleep is normal. Syndrome differentiation: Wind- Heat. Formula: 20g Chaosanxian (stirfried mix of Shenqu + Shanzha + Maiya), 10g Gandilong (Dilong, dry), 10g Laifuzi, 10g Lianqiao, 10g Niubangzi, 10g Yuxingcao, 10g Zisuye, 6g Chantui, 6g Jiegeng, 6g Xingren, 6g Zhiqiao, 3g Gancao, 3g Jineijin, 2g Zhimahuang. TOTAL 112g/bag, as loose herbs. Dose: 1 bag/day as decoction What do members think of the dosage levels? Also is it common for children to present mainly Wind-Heat patterns? Kind regards Attilio >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, Email: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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