Guest guest Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 Hi Everyone, Can anyone give me acupuncture point advice on Penile erectile disfunction. I heard liver 5 is helpful. My patient is on western drugs for cholesterol and blood pressure. I am sure these are part of the problem. Thanks, Margie Parolisi LAC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2004 Report Share Posted June 13, 2004 Margies: > Can anyone give me acupuncture point advice on Penile erectile > disfunction. I heard liver 5 is helpful. My patient is on western > drugs for cholesterol and blood pressure. I am sure these are part > of the problem. > > Yes they are. Locate 'cardiac reflex' and confirm CVS pathology, and then reduce this. Much if not all of the BP problem will resolve. Look for and release stagnation in R and L sectors of abdomen at level of ST 27. While you are at it look for an asymmetry in the hip, one higher than another, or a torque. If this is there, settling this can help, a great deal more than just point prescriptions. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2004 Report Share Posted June 13, 2004 Dear Dr. Keikobad, Thank you so very much for your great advice. So I think that means you think I should approach the problem by solving the blood pressure problem and the penile erectile dysfunction problem eventually resolve itself. Do I advise him to start cutting back on the b/p drug after treating him and keep a careful monitoring of the b/p? Also I am not sure where to locate the 'cardiac reflex' to confirm CVS pathology or maybe you meant that is the abdominal points around ST 27. Thank you again, Margie Parolisi LAC " Dr. Holmes Keikobad " <acuheal wrote: Margies: > Can anyone give me acupuncture point advice on Penile erectile > disfunction. I heard liver 5 is helpful. My patient is on western > drugs for cholesterol and blood pressure. I am sure these are part > of the problem. > > Yes they are. Locate 'cardiac reflex' and confirm CVS pathology, and then reduce this. Much if not all of the BP problem will resolve. Look for and release stagnation in R and L sectors of abdomen at level of ST 27. While you are at it look for an asymmetry in the hip, one higher than another, or a torque. If this is there, settling this can help, a great deal more than just point prescriptions. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 I was taught that 5 direct moxa cones with reinforcing needling on the liver 1 master point works well for issues around these types of conditions. This point is located midway along the distal aspect of the large toe nail (ie midway between liv 1 and sp1) Regards >>> Martin Dean parolisi2 wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > Can anyone give me acupuncture point advice on Penile erectile > disfunction. I heard liver 5 is helpful. My patient is on western > drugs for cholesterol and blood pressure. I am sure these are part > of the problem. Thanks, > > Margie Parolisi LAC > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being > delivered. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Margie Parolisi: > So I think that means you think I should approach the problem by solving > the blood pressure problem and the penile erectile dysfunction problem > eventually resolve itself. > > Yes, but let's call the BP problem by it's right name, a cardiac problem. Cardiac reflex is found when there is pressure pain on these points: [Pressure pain is pain or tenderness felt when finger or thumb pressure is 6.6 lbs. Try it out on bathroom scale] On the ventrum: L K 23, 24, 25 CV 17 L ST 18 L HT 3 At epigastrium in region of REN 14 pointing upwards 45 degrees. Pressure pain on L ST 18 is specific for L ventricle-based problems. On the dorsum: SI 13 UB 14 Treatment: This involves reducing pain and tenderness at cardiac reflex points by working the cardiac-release points. For instance, you found positive pressure pain: At epigastrium, L ST 18, on K 23, 24, 25; the place one hand on one point, and massage with the other on: L SP 3 [actually SP 3.2*, see below]; there are other points also, for the moment one uses this one. If massage release some pain, apply the handle of a plastic needle or an appropriate probe at the angle which most reduces tenderness. Work till you get the right angle, and then place a needle, in the same trajectory, just puncturing the skin, maybe 2 mm. Work with small thrusts along the shaft, about 10, every 5 mts, for 15 mts. As a result, the tenderness should release, and with it, the hypertension, to any substantial degree. * SP 3.2 is about .5 cm posterior to SP 3 in tradition of Master Nagano and Kiiko Masumoto. Another approach to regulating BP would be to work with the P channel: Locate pressure pain on P 8. If there reduce with: P 3 and P 5, first one and then the other, in the same manner as above massaging to find degree of release and ideal direction of needle. An empirical approach: Yet another somewhat empirical point used for BP is the one located under the 3rd toe, at exactly, it's junction with the sole of the foot. It is called Master Nagano's Blood Pressure point and is the result of a life time's work. Palpate the 3rd metatarso-phalangeal joint at the ventrum. To refine tenderness use a probe, gently used so as not to traumatize. While Matsumoto et al recommend a needle here, I have found it both expedient and somewhat prudent to use a small " mung " bean by the Su Jock tradition. This can be obtained at any Indian grocery shop, or any Indian household. It is green in color, very round, and hardy, so as to be used to deal with a BP problem with LV overtones. Find the point and place the seed and press a little to have the qi moving. > Do I advise him to start cutting back on the b/p drug after treating him > and keep a careful monitoring of the b/p? Not so, the medication must continue under the physician's advise, because one does not want to mess with that. But do advise the patient to monitor BP thrice a day for a week to look for a downturn. If above is done well, the reduction is apparent even in the first session. A final word. All this is based on Marsumoto's monumental work and can be read in her Kiiko Matsumoto's Clinical Strategies. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Dear Dr. Holmes, What a wealth of information you are. I cannot thank you enough. By the way, I am relocating to Tucson next year and will be starting up my practice in Saddlebrook Community. Maybe sometime after I get settled I can visit your office. Thanks again for everything. Margie Parolici LAC " Dr. Holmes " <aryaone wrote: Margie Parolisi: > So I think that means you think I should approach the problem by solving > the blood pressure problem and the penile erectile dysfunction problem > eventually resolve itself. > > Yes, but let's call the BP problem by it's right name, a cardiac problem. Cardiac reflex is found when there is pressure pain on these points: [Pressure pain is pain or tenderness felt when finger or thumb pressure is 6.6 lbs. Try it out on bathroom scale] On the ventrum: L K 23, 24, 25 CV 17 L ST 18 L HT 3 At epigastrium in region of REN 14 pointing upwards 45 degrees. Pressure pain on L ST 18 is specific for L ventricle-based problems. On the dorsum: SI 13 UB 14 Treatment: This involves reducing pain and tenderness at cardiac reflex points by working the cardiac-release points. For instance, you found positive pressure pain: At epigastrium, L ST 18, on K 23, 24, 25; the place one hand on one point, and massage with the other on: L SP 3 [actually SP 3.2*, see below]; there are other points also, for the moment one uses this one. If massage release some pain, apply the handle of a plastic needle or an appropriate probe at the angle which most reduces tenderness. Work till you get the right angle, and then place a needle, in the same trajectory, just puncturing the skin, maybe 2 mm. Work with small thrusts along the shaft, about 10, every 5 mts, for 15 mts. As a result, the tenderness should release, and with it, the hypertension, to any substantial degree. * SP 3.2 is about .5 cm posterior to SP 3 in tradition of Master Nagano and Kiiko Masumoto. Another approach to regulating BP would be to work with the P channel: Locate pressure pain on P 8. If there reduce with: P 3 and P 5, first one and then the other, in the same manner as above massaging to find degree of release and ideal direction of needle. An empirical approach: Yet another somewhat empirical point used for BP is the one located under the 3rd toe, at exactly, it's junction with the sole of the foot. It is called Master Nagano's Blood Pressure point and is the result of a life time's work. Palpate the 3rd metatarso-phalangeal joint at the ventrum. To refine tenderness use a probe, gently used so as not to traumatize. While Matsumoto et al recommend a needle here, I have found it both expedient and somewhat prudent to use a small " mung " bean by the Su Jock tradition. This can be obtained at any Indian grocery shop, or any Indian household. It is green in color, very round, and hardy, so as to be used to deal with a BP problem with LV overtones. Find the point and place the seed and press a little to have the qi moving. > Do I advise him to start cutting back on the b/p drug after treating him > and keep a careful monitoring of the b/p? Not so, the medication must continue under the physician's advise, because one does not want to mess with that. But do advise the patient to monitor BP thrice a day for a week to look for a downturn. If above is done well, the reduction is apparent even in the first session. A final word. All this is based on Marsumoto's monumental work and can be read in her Kiiko Matsumoto's Clinical Strategies. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Hi Margie, > Can anyone give me acupuncture point advice on Penile erectile > disfunction. I heard liver 5 is helpful. My patient is on western > drugs for cholesterol and blood pressure. I am sure these are part > of the problem. Thanks, Margie Parolisi LAC Apart from drug-induced limpness, male impotence has many possible causal factors. Poor self-image, boredom with one's partner, or feelings of rejection may be important psychological factors. These need to be addressed if they are present. For a summary of points used in male and female genito-urinary dysfunctions, see: http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/gu1.htm and linked pages. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Phi stated: Apart from drug-induced limpness, male impotence has many possible causal factors. Poor self-image, boredom with one's partner, or feelings of rejection may be important psychological factors. These need to be addressed if they are present. Phil is right about this. A simple method to screen if erectile dysfunction is likely to be psychologically based is to ask if the patient gets early morning erections as most all men do. While a delicate subject, you can also ask about masturbation. If a man get early morning erections (or at any time for that matter) or is able to become erect for masturbation but not with their partner, there is not much organic basis likely. Either way, many TCM approaches with acupuncture or herbs for building kidney essence will tend to help both organic or psychologically based conditions. Matt Bauer - Chinese Medicine Monday, June 14, 2004 8:44 AM Re: Penile erectile disfunction Hi Margie, > Can anyone give me acupuncture point advice on Penile erectile > disfunction. I heard liver 5 is helpful. My patient is on western > drugs for cholesterol and blood pressure. I am sure these are part > of the problem. Thanks, Margie Parolisi LAC Apart from drug-induced limpness, male impotence has many possible causal factors. Poor self-image, boredom with one's partner, or feelings of rejection may be important psychological factors. These need to be addressed if they are present. For a summary of points used in male and female genito-urinary dysfunctions, see: http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/gu1.htm and linked pages. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Welcome. If we have a workshop where we teach this reflex release system at that time, come by and see. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. - " Margie Parolisi " <parolisi2 <Chinese Medicine > Monday, June 14, 2004 8:06 AM Re: penile erectile disfunction > Dear Dr. Holmes, > > What a wealth of information you are. I cannot thank you enough. By the way, I am relocating to Tucson next year and will be starting up my practice in Saddlebrook Community. Maybe sometime after I get settled I can visit your office. Thanks again for everything. > > Margie Parolici LAC > > " Dr. Holmes " <aryaone wrote: > Margie Parolisi: > > So I think that means you think I should approach the problem by solving > > the blood pressure problem and the penile erectile dysfunction problem > > eventually resolve itself. > > > > > > Yes, but let's call the BP problem by it's right name, a cardiac problem. > > Cardiac reflex is found when there is pressure pain on these points: > [Pressure pain is pain or tenderness felt when finger or thumb pressure is > 6.6 lbs. Try it out on bathroom scale] > > On the ventrum: > L K 23, 24, 25 > CV 17 > L ST 18 > L HT 3 > At epigastrium in region of REN 14 pointing upwards 45 degrees. > > Pressure pain on L ST 18 is specific for L ventricle-based problems. > > On the dorsum: > SI 13 > UB 14 > > Treatment: > This involves reducing pain and tenderness at cardiac reflex points by > working the cardiac-release points. > > For instance, you found positive pressure pain: > At epigastrium, L ST 18, on K 23, 24, 25; the place one hand on > one point, and massage with the other on: > > L SP 3 [actually SP 3.2*, see below]; there are other points also, for the > moment one > uses this one. > > If massage release some pain, apply the handle of a plastic needle or an > appropriate probe at the angle which most reduces tenderness. > > Work till you get the right angle, and then place a needle, in the same > trajectory, just puncturing the skin, maybe 2 mm. > > Work with small thrusts along the shaft, about 10, every 5 mts, for 15 mts. > > As a result, the tenderness should release, and with it, the hypertension, > to > any substantial degree. > > * SP 3.2 is about .5 cm posterior to SP 3 in tradition of Master Nagano and > Kiiko Masumoto. > > Another approach to regulating BP would be to work with the P channel: > > Locate pressure pain on P 8. If there reduce with: > > P 3 and P 5, first one and then the other, in the same manner as above > massaging to find degree of release and ideal direction of needle. > > An empirical approach: > Yet another somewhat empirical point used for BP is the one located > under the 3rd toe, at exactly, it's junction with the sole of the foot. It > is > called Master Nagano's Blood Pressure point and is the result of a > life time's work. > > Palpate the 3rd metatarso-phalangeal joint at the ventrum. To refine > tenderness > use a probe, gently used so as not to traumatize. > > While Matsumoto et al recommend a needle here, I have found it both > expedient > and somewhat prudent to use a small " mung " bean by the Su Jock tradition. > This can be obtained at any Indian grocery shop, or any Indian household. > > It is green in color, very round, and hardy, so as to be used to deal with > a BP problem with LV overtones. > > Find the point and place the seed and press a little to have the > qi moving. > > > Do I advise him to start cutting back on the b/p drug after treating him > > and keep a careful monitoring of the b/p? > > Not so, the medication must continue under the physician's advise, because > one > does not want to mess with that. But do advise the patient to monitor BP > thrice a day for a week to look for a downturn. > > If above is done well, the reduction is apparent even in the first session. > > A final word. All this is based on Marsumoto's monumental work and can be > read > in her Kiiko Matsumoto's Clinical Strategies. > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad > MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ > www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. > NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Hi Matt & All, Matt Bauer wrote: > Phil stated: >>Apart from drug-induced limpness, male impotence has many possible causal factors. Poor self-image, boredom with one's partner, or feelings of rejection may be important psychological factors. These need to be addressed if they are present. > Phil is right about this. A simple method to screen if erectile > dysfunction is likely to be psychologically based is to ask if the > patient gets early morning erections as most all men do. While a > delicate subject, you can also ask about masturbation. If a man > get early morning erections (or at any time for that matter), or is > able to become erect for masturbation (but not with their > partner), there is not much organic basis likely. Either way, many > TCM approaches with AP or herbs to Build KI Jing will tend to help > both organic or psychologically based conditions. Matt Bauer Matt, I agree. But many difficult cases (not only of impotence, but of most chronic conditions) are multifactorial. Psychological components of impotence may be the main ones for some men, but concurrent components may include BP / HT problems (as mentioned by Holmes), nerve root pressure on sensory or autonomic nerves via the autonomic plexuses and sacral nerves, pain, etc. If poor self-image, boredom with one's partner, or feelings of rejection are important, professional counselling of BOTH partners may be essential to restore normality to the sexual relationship, and/or to save the marriage. IMO, elderly couples who have a deep bond may agree mutually to reduce or quit sexual/genital activity. They can express their affection and love for each other in different ways. If one partner does not wish to have intercourse, but the other partner needs occasional sexual release, a compromise can usually be reached that satisfies AND INVOLVES both partners. However, IMO, few younger couples can live happily and lovingly together for life without a basic sexual relationship that respects the needs of both partners. If one or both of the partners does not undertand this, and does not know how to reach an acceptable compromise, professional help is essential if the relationship is to survive. IMO, no amount of acupuncture, herbal medicine, or other male therapy can help impotence in a life-partnership unless BOTH partners reach agreement on how to respect the sexual needs of the other. There are many ways to skin a cat. If one partner is too tired, or otherwise temporarily disinterested in active sex, he/she can still be involved in showing affection, if not actively pleasuring, the other with minimal effort. For example, without going into detail, the tired one may agree to cuddle the other while he/she obtains pleasure / relief by hand or vibrator, etc. In a life-relationship, IMO, sexual release, per se, though important from time to time for most people, is much less important than mutual affection, love, affirmation and respect. Intact male animals have sex, one way or another, and then get on with the more important things. If bulls are together and there are no available females, one unfortunate (usually the weakest) becomes " the female " for the rest. And, if there is nothing better on offer, intact male animals masturbate occasionally. Then they get on with life - grazing or ruminating. Humans are more evolved than animals, and I do not hold the bull example as an icon for human behaviour. However, the male drive for sexual release is strong, and, once released, males usually turn to more rewarding or productive activities. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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