Guest guest Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 Thank you all for getting back to me regarding this topic. I am quite surprised that anaesthesia acupuncture isn't widely used. This was one of the aspects of Chinese medicine that first interested me. This leads me to think about other aspects of TCM that may not be all they seem, for instance acupuncture and pregnancy. Does anyone know or had the misfortune to induce a miscarriage via stimulation of acupoints contraindicated in pregnancy such as Hegu and Sanyinjiao as suggested in the classics? I understand that different acupuncturists have different styles, stimulation and these may influence adverse effects, but to what degree? Attilio Chinese Medicine , " briansbeard " <brian_s_beard@h...> wrote: > One of my instructors in school was an orthopedic surgeon in china. > He said that the difficulty of using acupuncture anesthesia is it > might only work for 95% of the pain, but this isn't good enough for > most patients when you're cutting in to them. It has to work for 100% > of the pain or they couldn't use it. Consequently western anesthesia > would always have to be there as a backup. It's my guess that it's > easier to use western anesthesia all the time than try something that > might need a backup. > > Someone else I knew used it for dental work with good results. It > basically was a way to reduce the amount of chemicals you would be > shot up with for those with a sensitivity to them. So if it didn't > work 100% it didn't matter, but whatever gains could be made from it > the better. The patient would be awake during the procedure and could > adjust the amplitude settings on the tens machine in real time for > best results. > > --brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 Hi Attilio Last week I tried to induce labor in a post-due woman, 1st pregnancy. Although she got good contractions for 11 hours or so, each time she shut down. However she didn't have the baby after they stripped her membranes or put her on a drip either. It turns out the baby had its face against the pelvic rim so didn't progress. It didn't take really strong stimulation to get the contractions started but they wouldn't continue either when there was something wrong..I haven't alot of experience with this but I am thinking that the body will take care of itself even if I urge it another way. Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 Hi I haven't used these points for abortion or by mistake inducing miscarriage; but I have used them in a patient of mine who was overdue. I used them to induce labour (LI4 and Sp6 ; in addition I used Liv 3, BL 31, and BL32 and ear points Shenmen and uterus) And it worked very well; I manage to get the contractions going; but it took quite a few sessions, spaced out in the day to get the contraction constant and the stage 1 of labour started. Guess that shows somehow they work! Hope that helps May On 12/6/04 4:13 pm, " " <attiliodalberto wrote: > Thank you all for getting back to me regarding this topic. I am > quite surprised that anaesthesia acupuncture isn't widely used. This > was one of the aspects of Chinese medicine that first interested me. > This leads me to think about other aspects of TCM that may not be > all they seem, for instance acupuncture and pregnancy. > > Does anyone know or had the misfortune to induce a miscarriage via > stimulation of acupoints contraindicated in pregnancy such as Hegu > and Sanyinjiao as suggested in the classics? I understand that > different acupuncturists have different styles, stimulation and > these may influence adverse effects, but to what degree? > > Attilio > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 Hi Attilio, A little info on your original question regarding acu anesthesia (analgesia). It started not with an aid to Nixon but a reporter for the New York Times who covered the table tennis team the US sent to China when Nixon reestablished relations with China in 1972(?). The reporter (James Reston) had an emergency appendectomy and then was given acupuncture for the post-surgical pain. He wrote favorably of his experience with acupuncture and started a wave of interest in the practice here in the US. One of the more interesting and sad facts to recently come to light regarding using acupuncture for analgesia during surgery was that the Chinese government actually placed quotas on hospitals, forcing them to due a set number of surgeries using acupuncture. While I personally believe acupuncture anesthesia is a remarkable phenomenon that has not yet been fully realized, the fact is it has substantial limits - both in terms of the type of patient who is a good candidate for it and the type of surgery it is used for. Many surgeons were unhappy with meeting quotas and often secretly provided their suffering patients with drug anesthesia. Why did the Chinese government demand a certain number of surgeries be done with acupuncture? Because they were promoting their propaganda that modern (Maoist era) discoveries were improvements over the methods of the past. The first preference of the government during the Cultural Revolution was to abandon the ways of the past - the old Taoist/Buddhists/Confucius thinking that was preventing the people from fully embracing Maoist ideals. With traditional medicine however, they had a problem - the government knew they needed to use traditional medicine, but this was a practice born out of the old thinking. The next best thing if you could not get rid of an old era practice was to put a new twist on it. Thus, Mao era acupuncture anesthesia was promoted. I believe the practice of electro-stimulation was also over-emphasized for similar political reasons although that technique has far more broad functionality. As for causing miscarriages by needling certain points - I think there is a potential for this but that we are talking one in the thousands or tens of thousands. In the practice of acupuncture, it is very difficult (but not impossible) to make the body do anything it should not do. If a woman has an unhealthy pregnancy and is on the verge of miscarrying, these points may well set that off. But, if a woman had a healthy pregnancy, I think it would be very rare one could abort this even if one tried everything possible. There are tales of acupuncture abortions, but these also show it is very unreliable. If aborting a pregnancy is so difficult when one tries to do so, the odds of this happening when one is not trying must be great. This being said - why risk it at all? There are so many different possible points that can be used for any problem, why take an even 1 - in 10,000 chance? Matt Bauer - Chinese Medicine Saturday, June 12, 2004 8:13 AM Re: Acupuncture and Pregnancy Thank you all for getting back to me regarding this topic. I am quite surprised that anaesthesia acupuncture isn't widely used. This was one of the aspects of Chinese medicine that first interested me. This leads me to think about other aspects of TCM that may not be all they seem, for instance acupuncture and pregnancy. Does anyone know or had the misfortune to induce a miscarriage via stimulation of acupoints contraindicated in pregnancy such as Hegu and Sanyinjiao as suggested in the classics? I understand that different acupuncturists have different styles, stimulation and these may influence adverse effects, but to what degree? Attilio Chinese Medicine , " briansbeard " <brian_s_beard@h...> wrote: > One of my instructors in school was an orthopedic surgeon in china. > He said that the difficulty of using acupuncture anesthesia is it > might only work for 95% of the pain, but this isn't good enough for > most patients when you're cutting in to them. It has to work for 100% > of the pain or they couldn't use it. Consequently western anesthesia > would always have to be there as a backup. It's my guess that it's > easier to use western anesthesia all the time than try something that > might need a backup. > > Someone else I knew used it for dental work with good results. It > basically was a way to reduce the amount of chemicals you would be > shot up with for those with a sensitivity to them. So if it didn't > work 100% it didn't matter, but whatever gains could be made from it > the better. The patient would be awake during the procedure and could > adjust the amplitude settings on the tens machine in real time for > best results. > > --brian Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 Hi Attilio, I've been busy of late so didn't respond to this until now. Dr. Ping Qi Kang was the chief medical officer of Shanghai Hospital #1. He reports that all abdominal and thoracic surgeries were performed during his fourteen year tenure with anaesthesia acupuncture with the patient awake. As an anatomist and physiologist I questioned him quite a bit about this topic. I have pictures of open heart surgery that was printed in the Boston Globe newspaper in 1995. They show a woman patient in this same hospital with stretchers holding open her open chest surgical field. There is a draped curtain between the chest surgery and her head. She has a sleepy faint smile on her face. Dr. Kang indicates that pain is eliminated by the acupuncture technique but touch/proprioception is not. This makes sense to me as pain/temperature travel on different nerve fibers than touch/proprioception. Thus, the patient is anaesthetized regarding pain but not regarding touch. The patient can " feel " the surgery but not the pain of the surgery. They are also tranquilized by the acupuncture so as to be unconcerned about the surgical procedure. Dr. Kang indicates that the 1400 bed Hospital #1 in Shanghai was able to perform more transplant surgeries than any other hospital worldwide in part because of the lack of chemical anaesthesia. It's also of interest that the needles are constantly being worked by the experts who perform this AP anaesthesia technique and must be performed in teams in order to maintain the anaesthesia throughout a many hour surgery. If you are ever in San Francisco, Attilio, I'll introduce you to Dr. Kang. You can have some discussion with him regarding this issue as he was in charge of this activity for many years in Shanghai. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen - Thank you all for getting back to me regarding this topic. I am quite surprised that anaesthesia acupuncture isn't widely used. This was one of the aspects of Chinese medicine that first interested me. This leads me to think about other aspects of TCM that may not be all they seem, for instance acupuncture and pregnancy. Does anyone know or had the misfortune to induce a miscarriage via stimulation of acupoints contraindicated in pregnancy such as Hegu and Sanyinjiao as suggested in the classics? I understand that different acupuncturists have different styles, stimulation and these may influence adverse effects, but to what degree? Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2004 Report Share Posted June 13, 2004 Hi Attilio and all, When I was a student I had a friend who was less than three months pregnant and having terrible constipation. During an acupuncture appointment with a teacher I asked her what point would be safe to use on my friend for constipation. She suggested SJ 6. In the back of my mind I thought it sounded a bit risky, but I trusted this teacher very much, so I did the point without much thought. My friend had a miscarriage within 24 hours. I will never know whether the point is to blame, but I have always wondered. In retrospect I think that maybe a language barrier is to blame---perhaps my teacher did not catch that I was asking about a PREGNANT woman with constipation. There is a happy ending to this story, by the way: three months later my friend got pregnant again and now has a healthy boy. Laura Chinese Medicine , " Attilio DAlberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > Thank you all for getting back to me regarding this topic. I am > quite surprised that anaesthesia acupuncture isn't widely used. This > was one of the aspects of Chinese medicine that first interested me. > This leads me to think about other aspects of TCM that may not be > all they seem, for instance acupuncture and pregnancy. > > Does anyone know or had the misfortune to induce a miscarriage via > stimulation of acupoints contraindicated in pregnancy such as Hegu > and Sanyinjiao as suggested in the classics? I understand that > different acupuncturists have different styles, stimulation and > these may influence adverse effects, but to what degree? > > Attilio > > Chinese Medicine , " briansbeard " > <brian_s_beard@h...> wrote: > > One of my instructors in school was an orthopedic surgeon in > china. > > He said that the difficulty of using acupuncture anesthesia is it > > might only work for 95% of the pain, but this isn't good enough > for > > most patients when you're cutting in to them. It has to work for > 100% > > of the pain or they couldn't use it. Consequently western > anesthesia > > would always have to be there as a backup. It's my guess that > it's > > easier to use western anesthesia all the time than try something > that > > might need a backup. > > > > Someone else I knew used it for dental work with good results. It > > basically was a way to reduce the amount of chemicals you would be > > shot up with for those with a sensitivity to them. So if it didn't > > work 100% it didn't matter, but whatever gains could be made from > it > > the better. The patient would be awake during the procedure and > could > > adjust the amplitude settings on the tens machine in real time for > > best results. > > > > --brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2004 Report Share Posted June 13, 2004 In a message dated 6/13/04 11:52:16 AM, aryaone writes: << And it does not have a happy ending because the need to romanticize a teacher and make her right at all costs is still there. >> oh, please! SJ 6 is not contraindicated in pregnancy. There's no way one should make the assumption that the needling caused the miscarriage. --rs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2004 Report Share Posted June 13, 2004 It does not have a happy ending because the fatally blind fait you had on a teacher you perceived wise enough to entrust some one else's life to, is still in place. It also does not have a happy ending because the doubt on words spoken and heard is still unclarified. And it does not have a happy ending because the need to romanticize a teacher and make her right at all costs is still there. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. " heylaurag " <heylaurag Sunday, June 13, 2004 12:58 AM Re: Acupuncture and Pregnancy > Hi Attilio and all, > > When I was a student I had a friend who was less than three months > pregnant and having terrible constipation. During an acupuncture > appointment with a teacher I asked her what point would be safe to > use on my friend for constipation. She suggested SJ 6. In the back > of my mind I thought it sounded a bit risky, but I trusted this > teacher very much, so I did the point without much thought. My > friend had a miscarriage within 24 hours. I will never know whether > the point is to blame, but I have always wondered. In retrospect I > think that maybe a language barrier is to blame---perhaps my teacher > did not catch that I was asking about a PREGNANT woman with > constipation. > > There is a happy ending to this story, by the way: three months > later my friend got pregnant again and now has a healthy boy. > > Laura > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Attilio > DAlberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > > Thank you all for getting back to me regarding this topic. I am > > quite surprised that anaesthesia acupuncture isn't widely used. > This > > was one of the aspects of Chinese medicine that first interested > me. > > This leads me to think about other aspects of TCM that may not be > > all they seem, for instance acupuncture and pregnancy. > > > > Does anyone know or had the misfortune to induce a miscarriage via > > stimulation of acupoints contraindicated in pregnancy such as Hegu > > and Sanyinjiao as suggested in the classics? I understand that > > different acupuncturists have different styles, stimulation and > > these may influence adverse effects, but to what degree? > > > > Attilio > > > > Chinese Medicine , " briansbeard " > > <brian_s_beard@h...> wrote: > > > One of my instructors in school was an orthopedic surgeon in > > china. > > > He said that the difficulty of using acupuncture anesthesia is it > > > might only work for 95% of the pain, but this isn't good enough > > for > > > most patients when you're cutting in to them. It has to work for > > 100% > > > of the pain or they couldn't use it. Consequently western > > anesthesia > > > would always have to be there as a backup. It's my guess that > > it's > > > easier to use western anesthesia all the time than try something > > that > > > might need a backup. > > > > > > Someone else I knew used it for dental work with good results. It > > > basically was a way to reduce the amount of chemicals you would > be > > > shot up with for those with a sensitivity to them. So if it > didn't > > > work 100% it didn't matter, but whatever gains could be made from > > it > > > the better. The patient would be awake during the procedure and > > could > > > adjust the amplitude settings on the tens machine in real time > for > > > best results. > > > > > > --brian > > > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > and adjust accordingly. > > If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2004 Report Share Posted June 13, 2004 To Laura, It is not my intent to be abrupt or obtuse, and this is less directed to you and more to the general attitude of Western students and healers to Eastern teachers that they are knowledgeable, wise and in integrity, mainly by assumption, and a need to believe. This line of thought is meant to encourage a pragmatic view towards teachers which encourages discrimination towards who is thought to be a teacher and a sense of self worth, towards who is being taught. In essence, a teacher only gives you what is already yours. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. - " Dr. Holmes " <aryaone <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, June 13, 2004 7:01 AM Re: Re: Acupuncture and Pregnancy > It does not have a happy ending because the fatally blind fait you had > on a teacher you perceived wise enough to entrust some one else's life to, > is still in place. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2004 Report Share Posted June 13, 2004 Can some kind soul point me to a 'downloadable release form' which one may use when doing a house call on a seriously ill patient? Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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