Lung & vessels, SuWen 8, translations - fantasy or delusion?

[Guest guest]

A brief point, and a long-winded one:

 

1) Point Lu-9 as hui for vessels has also something to do with Lu-9-8-7 as

the locus of radial pulse reading. Paul Unschuld has said that the Chinese

character mai4 ( " vessel " ) is often to be understood as the pulse sensation

rather than the physical tube/entity. He calls it something like " pulsating

vessel " .

 

2) Taking off from Anne's (ajeffres) illuminating comments about

the SuWen text.

 

(I'm not deeply versed in Chinese language or scholarship, but know some

words, have a couple of dictionaries, can get help from my (Chinese) wife

to get pinyin to look characters up, and have a general sense of textual

criticism, from earlier post-graduate study of musicology.)

 

The depiction of the 12 organs/officials in SuWen chapter 8 follows a

formulaic pattern:

Each consists of 3 chunks of characters

 

(1) <name> zhe3, (2) <~description> zhi1 guan1, (3) <~function> chu1 yan1.

 

1) <zangfu name> zhe3

E.g. xin1 for heart, fei4 for lungs, etc. Actually there are only 11

passages here, though the text elsewhere clearly says " 12 organs " . The 6th

passage uses the compound term " PiWei " (Spleen-Stomach), with commentary

that it may have been originally just Wei (Stomach).

The zhe3 is some kind of helper word, not an explicit meaning that I can

tell.

 

2) <a couple of character description> zhi1 guan1

E.g. jun1 zhu3 " supreme master " for heart.

Zhi1 guan1, I suspect, says something like " as an organ or official " . Zhi1

is used a lot, with a sense like " namely " , " in a word " . I got this sense

from the term/title of the Larre book on the Curious Organs - qi heng zhi

fu - " the QiHeng which are/namely Fu/organs " . So here, for ALL the zangfu,

it says, I think, " <description> as official/organ " . The whole passage

appears to be a prime illustration of Dr. Unschuld's view that much of the

NeiJing uses the imagery of the Han/Confucian political-social order of

things as the " Vorbild " for the medical " Bild " of human physiology/pathology.

The description of the Lung here is, as Anne showed, ziang1 chuan2 -

" spreading to the organs [each other] " , or " passing on one to the other " or

something like that. But it's questionable that zhi1 guan1 means passing to

the other organs/officials, as the phrase is used for ALL the

organs/officials, so more like, " as official " .

 

3) <a couple of characters function> chu1 yan1.

E.g. for the heart: shen3 ming1 - " spirit bright " .

Chu1 means something like " go/come out " . Yan1 something like " here,

herein " . So " out and in " . But this is used for ALL the organs/officials.

Does it mean " out " as in channel systems, and " in " as in zangfu organ?

 

So, the Chinese text (according to Wu, from 8th century Wang Bing, as

relayed by the 11th century Imperial committee - the earliest text we

actually have), filtering out all the text that's common to all the passages:

For the heart: " supreme master " … " spirit bright "

For the lung: " passing on to the others " or " mutually conducting " …

" governs the parts/divisions "

 

And now the fun part - from the translations that I have at hand:

 

(Wu) The heart is the supreme commander or the monarch of the human body,

it dominates the spirit, ideology and thought of man.

The lung governs the various vessels and regulates the energy of the whole

body, like a prime minister assisting the king to reign the country.

 

(Maoshing Ni)

The heart is the sovereign of all organs and represents the consciousness

of one's being.

The lung is the advisor. It helps the heart in regulating the body's qi.

 

(Ilza Veith)

The heart is like the minister of the monarch who excels through insight

and understanding.

The lungs are the symbol of the interpretation and conduct of the official

jurisdiction and regulation.

 

(Mike Barnett, from the French translation by Dr. A. Chamfrault)

The Heart is the royal organ; is represents the king; in it resides the

Spirit.

The Lungs are the ministers; they rule the energy of the exterior, of the

skin.

 

Where do they get all this, textually speaking, extraneous meaning?

 

How do they get from the heart's " spirit bright " to " dominates the

ideology " vs " represents the consciousness of one's being " vs " excels

through insight and understanding " vs " resides in the Spirit " ? Where in the

text are the lungs' vessels, energy, assisting the king, regulating the qi,

jurisdiction and regulation, the exterior and the skin?

 

They're reading in a lot more than is there in the text. Especially the Wu

book, which is invaluable for having the Chinese text, but otherwise adds a

lot of extraneous translation verbiage, and has several glaring errors in

just the small amount of text I have read and compared to the Chinese.

 

So, as Paul Unschuld points out, when he's trying to be diplomatic, our

western (and apparently some Chinese also) interpretations of classical

Chinese medicine are in large part a " creative " endeavor, i.e. fantasy. But

that's OK. Beyond the often boring historical fact issues, that's the most

we can do with anything historical. Even Jeffery Yuen's brilliant and

fascinating interpretations are a function of his oral inheritance of

tradition (heresy), and his uncanny ability to bring it to life in

contemporary terms (fantasy).

 

We should take care, however, to try and look at the original text, and

triangulate among the various interpretations to avoid delusions in taking

the words of any single translation/interpretation too literally, such as

that the lungs govern the vessels.

 

Note: Paul Unschuld's translation of the two passages (in " HuangDi NeiJing

SuWen - Nature, Knowledge, Imagery in an Ancient Chinese Medical Text " , p

133):

 

The heart is the official functioning as Ruler.

Spirit brilliance originates in it.

 

The lung is the official functioning as Chancellor and Mentor.

Order and regulation originate in it.

 

The heart's descriptors are clear here. The lung's must have meanings

beyond those in modern dictionaries. And he seems to interpret the

chu1-yan1 (out/in) as " originating in " . Unfortunately, we have to wait a

couple of years for the full SuWen translation from his team.

 

, L.Ac, M.A. (musicology)

[Guest guest]

Chris

Wow

 

I must have missed your post, but I found it today, searching for

something else.

You really spent some research time with this. Really appreciated!!

 

Holger

 

2004-06-01 kl. 02.19 skrev :

 

> A brief point, and a long-winded one:

>

> 1) Point Lu-9 as hui for vessels has also something to do with

> Lu-9-8-7 as

> the locus of radial pulse reading. Paul Unschuld has said that the

> Chinese

> character mai4 ( " vessel " ) is often to be understood as the pulse

> sensation

> rather than the physical tube/entity. He calls it something like

> " pulsating

> vessel " .

>

> 2) Taking off from Anne's (ajeffres) illuminating comments

> about

> the SuWen text.

>

> (I'm not deeply versed in Chinese language or scholarship, but know

> some

> words, have a couple of dictionaries, can get help from my (Chinese)

> wife

> to get pinyin to look characters up, and have a general sense of

> textual

> criticism, from earlier post-graduate study of musicology.)

>

> The depiction of the 12 organs/officials in SuWen chapter 8 follows a

> formulaic pattern:

> Each consists of 3 chunks of characters

>

> (1) <name> zhe3, (2) <~description> zhi1 guan1, (3) <~function> chu1

> yan1.

>

> 1) <zangfu name> zhe3

> E.g. xin1 for heart, fei4 for lungs, etc. Actually there are only 11

> passages here, though the text elsewhere clearly says " 12 organs " . The

> 6th

> passage uses the compound term " PiWei " (Spleen-Stomach), with

> commentary

> that it may have been originally just Wei (Stomach).

> The zhe3 is some kind of helper word, not an explicit meaning that I

> can

> tell.

>

> 2) <a couple of character description> zhi1 guan1

> E.g. jun1 zhu3 " supreme master " for heart.

> Zhi1 guan1, I suspect, says something like " as an organ or official " .

> Zhi1

> is used a lot, with a sense like " namely " , " in a word " . I got this

> sense

> from the term/title of the Larre book on the Curious Organs - qi heng

> zhi

> fu - " the QiHeng which are/namely Fu/organs " . So here, for ALL the

> zangfu,

> it says, I think, " <description> as official/organ " . The whole passage

> appears to be a prime illustration of Dr. Unschuld's view that much of

> the

> NeiJing uses the imagery of the Han/Confucian political-social order of

> things as the " Vorbild " for the medical " Bild " of human

> physiology/pathology.

> The description of the Lung here is, as Anne showed, ziang1 chuan2 -

> " spreading to the organs [each other] " , or " passing on one to the

> other " or

> something like that. But it's questionable that zhi1 guan1 means

> passing to

> the other organs/officials, as the phrase is used for ALL the

> organs/officials, so more like, " as official " .

>

> 3) <a couple of characters function> chu1 yan1.

> E.g. for the heart: shen3 ming1 - " spirit bright " .

> Chu1 means something like " go/come out " . Yan1 something like " here,

> herein " . So " out and in " . But this is used for ALL the

> organs/officials.

> Does it mean " out " as in channel systems, and " in " as in zangfu organ?

>

> So, the Chinese text (according to Wu, from 8th century Wang Bing, as

> relayed by the 11th century Imperial committee - the earliest text we

> actually have), filtering out all the text that's common to all the

> passages:

> For the heart: " supreme master " … " spirit bright "

> For the lung: " passing on to the others " or " mutually conducting " …

> " governs the parts/divisions "

>

> And now the fun part - from the translations that I have at hand:

>

> (Wu) The heart is the supreme commander or the monarch of the human

> body,

> it dominates the spirit, ideology and thought of man.

> The lung governs the various vessels and regulates the energy of the

> whole

> body, like a prime minister assisting the king to reign the country.

>

> (Maoshing Ni)

> The heart is the sovereign of all organs and represents the

> consciousness

> of one's being.

> The lung is the advisor. It helps the heart in regulating the body's

> qi.

>

> (Ilza Veith)

> The heart is like the minister of the monarch who excels through

> insight

> and understanding.

> The lungs are the symbol of the interpretation and conduct of the

> official

> jurisdiction and regulation.

>

> (Mike Barnett, from the French translation by Dr. A. Chamfrault)

> The Heart is the royal organ; is represents the king; in it resides

> the

> Spirit.

> The Lungs are the ministers; they rule the energy of the exterior, of

> the

> skin.

>

> Where do they get all this, textually speaking, extraneous meaning?

>

> How do they get from the heart's " spirit bright " to " dominates the

> ideology " vs " represents the consciousness of one's being " vs " excels

> through insight and understanding " vs " resides in the Spirit " ? Where

> in the

> text are the lungs' vessels, energy, assisting the king, regulating

> the qi,

> jurisdiction and regulation, the exterior and the skin?

>

> They're reading in a lot more than is there in the text. Especially

> the Wu

> book, which is invaluable for having the Chinese text, but otherwise

> adds a

> lot of extraneous translation verbiage, and has several glaring errors

> in

> just the small amount of text I have read and compared to the Chinese.

>

> So, as Paul Unschuld points out, when he's trying to be diplomatic, our

> western (and apparently some Chinese also) interpretations of classical

> Chinese medicine are in large part a " creative " endeavor, i.e.

> fantasy. But

> that's OK. Beyond the often boring historical fact issues, that's the

> most

> we can do with anything historical. Even Jeffery Yuen's brilliant and

> fascinating interpretations are a function of his oral inheritance of

> tradition (heresy), and his uncanny ability to bring it to life in

> contemporary terms (fantasy).

>

> We should take care, however, to try and look at the original text, and

> triangulate among the various interpretations to avoid delusions in

> taking

> the words of any single translation/interpretation too literally, such

> as

> that the lungs govern the vessels.

>

> Note: Paul Unschuld's translation of the two passages (in " HuangDi

> NeiJing

> SuWen - Nature, Knowledge, Imagery in an Ancient Chinese Medical

> Text " , p

> 133):

>

> The heart is the official functioning as Ruler.

> Spirit brilliance originates in it.

>

> The lung is the official functioning as Chancellor and Mentor.

> Order and regulation originate in it.

>

> The heart's descriptors are clear here. The lung's must have meanings

> beyond those in modern dictionaries. And he seems to interpret the

> chu1-yan1 (out/in) as " originating in " . Unfortunately, we have to wait

> a

> couple of years for the full SuWen translation from his team.

>

> , L.Ac, M.A. (musicology)