Guest guest Posted May 29, 2004 Report Share Posted May 29, 2004 Hey everyone, does anyone know of any " magic " points in the treatment of menopause. This woman has been suffering for 5 years, just started coming to see me. She has intense hot flashes at night, suffers from fibromyalgia all over, sleep is poor, heart palps on and off during the day, 4 years ago she fainted feeling nauseated and weak, she has been diagnosed that her adrenal cortisol doesn't work properly, when she gets up too fast she gets dizzy, she feel intense pain at the bottom of her feet (like they're on fire- " walking on my bones " ) movement helps her stiffness in the morning. I gave her Er Xian Tang KPC powder but she can only take 1 tiny scoop as when she took 2 scoops, she said she felt all of her organs moving with severe cramps. tongue- red, red tip, swollen, dry, coat is whitish dry, crack in the middle pulse-L-rapid, thin and wiry, ki is weak -R-rapid, sticky, ki weak I've been using all the typical points but I don't seem to be helping her hot flashes at all or her pain. Is there anyone out there who can help? I've had some great suggestions like using some of Master Tong points and using 5 element theory. I've also added a small dose of Long Dan XGT. But nothing seems to be working. Does anyone know what the " walking on bones " might be? Thank you and I appreciate your replies. Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2004 Report Share Posted May 29, 2004 Try SP 6, PC 6-SP 4 with ion cords (Black at SP 4), KD 3, LR 3, LR 4, 8, and 14. GB 34, KD 7, 27 (adrenal tx), HT 7, and tell her to get 1 hr/day sunlight on her face for the pituitary gland, and take a cal/mag liquid drink 1-2 times/day. --- Ann Zee <dr.annzee wrote: > > Hey everyone, > > does anyone know of any " magic " points in the > treatment of menopause. This > woman has been suffering for 5 years, just started > coming to see me. She > has > intense hot flashes at night, suffers from > fibromyalgia all over, sleep is > poor, heart palps on and off during the day, 4 years > ago she fainted > feeling > nauseated and weak, she has been diagnosed that her > adrenal cortisol > doesn't work properly, when she gets up too fast she > gets dizzy, she feel > intense pain at the bottom of her feet (like they're > on fire- " walking on my > bones " ) movement helps her stiffness in the morning. > I gave her Er Xian Tang KPC powder but she can only > take 1 tiny scoop as > when she took 2 scoops, she said she felt all of her > organs moving with > severe cramps. > > tongue- red, red tip, swollen, dry, coat is whitish > dry, crack in the > middle > pulse-L-rapid, thin and wiry, ki is weak > -R-rapid, sticky, ki weak > > I've been using all the typical points but I don't > seem to be helping her > hot flashes at all or her pain. Is there anyone out > there who can help? > > I've had some great suggestions like using some of > Master Tong points and > using 5 element theory. I've also added a small dose > of Long Dan XGT. But > nothing seems to be working. Does anyone know what > the " walking on bones " > might be? > > Thank you and I appreciate your replies. > > Ann > > > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Messenger. http://messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2004 Report Share Posted May 29, 2004 John, Hmm...I thought the black was supposed to be at PC-6. I thought that was the prescribed protocol for that method. Is yours a modification? Rationale? Ann B. John Garbarini > Try SP 6, PC 6-SP 4 with ion cords (Black at SP 4), KD 3, LR 3, LR 4, 8, and 14. GB 34, KD 7, 27 (adrenal tx), HT 7, and tell her to get 1 hr/day sunlight on her face for the pituitary gland, and take a cal/mag liquid drink 1-2 times/day. --- Ann Zee <dr.annzee wrote: > > Hey everyone, > > does anyone know of any " magic " points in the > treatment of menopause. This > woman has been suffering for 5 years, just started > coming to see me. She > has > intense hot flashes at night, suffers from > fibromyalgia all over, sleep is > poor, heart palps on and off during the day, 4 years > ago she fainted > feeling > nauseated and weak, she has been diagnosed that her > adrenal cortisol > doesn't work properly, when she gets up too fast she > gets dizzy, she feel > intense pain at the bottom of her feet (like they're > on fire- " walking on my > bones " ) movement helps her stiffness in the morning. > I gave her Er Xian Tang KPC powder but she can only > take 1 tiny scoop as > when she took 2 scoops, she said she felt all of her > organs moving with > severe cramps. > > tongue- red, red tip, swollen, dry, coat is whitish > dry, crack in the > middle > pulse-L-rapid, thin and wiry, ki is weak > -R-rapid, sticky, ki weak > > I've been using all the typical points but I don't > seem to be helping her > hot flashes at all or her pain. Is there anyone out > there who can help? > > I've had some great suggestions like using some of > Master Tong points and > using 5 element theory. I've also added a small dose > of Long Dan XGT. But > nothing seems to be working. Does anyone know what > the " walking on bones " > might be? > > Thank you and I appreciate your replies. > > Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2004 Report Share Posted May 29, 2004 hi, here i would just like to share what it is said about the menopause among italian acupuncturist: the Doctor De Berardinis propose menopause with poor sleep and palp Sp 4, St 30 (opening point of chongmai and point of coming out of chongmai), Ki 23 (shu-fire point frontal) and Pc6. luigi Chinese Medicine , snakeoil.works@m... wrote: > John, > Hmm...I thought the black was supposed to be at PC-6. I thought that was the prescribed protocol for that method. Is yours a modification? Rationale? > > Ann B. > > > > > John Garbarini > > > Try SP 6, PC 6-SP 4 with ion cords (Black at SP 4), KD > 3, LR 3, LR 4, 8, and 14. GB 34, KD 7, 27 (adrenal > tx), HT 7, and tell her to get 1 hr/day sunlight on > her face for the pituitary gland, and take a cal/mag > liquid drink 1-2 times/day. > --- Ann Zee <dr.annzee@s...> wrote: > > > > Hey everyone, > > > > does anyone know of any " magic " points in the > > treatment of menopause. This > > woman has been suffering for 5 years, just started > > coming to see me. She > > has > > intense hot flashes at night, suffers from > > fibromyalgia all over, sleep is > > poor, heart palps on and off during the day, 4 years > > ago she fainted > > feeling > > nauseated and weak, she has been diagnosed that her > > adrenal cortisol > > doesn't work properly, when she gets up too fast she > > gets dizzy, she feel > > intense pain at the bottom of her feet (like they're > > on fire- " walking on my > > bones " ) movement helps her stiffness in the morning. > > I gave her Er Xian Tang KPC powder but she can only > > take 1 tiny scoop as > > when she took 2 scoops, she said she felt all of her > > organs moving with > > severe cramps. > > > > tongue- red, red tip, swollen, dry, coat is whitish > > dry, crack in the > > middle > > pulse-L-rapid, thin and wiry, ki is weak > > -R-rapid, sticky, ki weak > > > > I've been using all the typical points but I don't > > seem to be helping her > > hot flashes at all or her pain. Is there anyone out > > there who can help? > > > > I've had some great suggestions like using some of > > Master Tong points and > > using 5 element theory. I've also added a small dose > > of Long Dan XGT. But > > nothing seems to be working. Does anyone know what > > the " walking on bones " > > might be? > > > > Thank you and I appreciate your replies. > > > > Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 As a general comment, Er Xian Tang could be giving problems because it also works on tonifying KD Yang and could be adding too much yang given all her fire. I would focus more on clearing heat first. I'm not sure I have enough information on figuring how the fibromyalgia fits in to the picture SP/KD/Xue/Yin? , but it atleast looks like HT- KD Yin xu w/ fire plus some xue xu. Walking on her bones - could that be it's as if there's no flesh and it's as if she's walking on her bones (pointing to SP & lack of flesh), or is it fire on her feet, so maybe steaming bone disorder? Depending on symptoms, perhaps one of DaBuYinWan, HuQianWan (modified to clear heat), ZhuShaAnShenWan, HuangLian E Jiao Tang, modified for the fibromyalgia may help. If there are damp signs which are indicating using LongDanXieGanTang, ErMiaoSan/SanMiaoSan may be another alternative. --brian Chinese Medicine , Ann Zee <dr.annzee@s...> wrote: > > Hey everyone, > > does anyone know of any " magic " points in the treatment of menopause. This > woman has been suffering for 5 years, just started coming to see me. She > has > intense hot flashes at night, suffers from fibromyalgia all over, sleep is > poor, heart palps on and off during the day, 4 years ago she fainted > feeling > nauseated and weak, she has been diagnosed that her adrenal cortisol > doesn't work properly, when she gets up too fast she gets dizzy, she feel > intense pain at the bottom of her feet (like they're on fire- " walking on my > bones " ) movement helps her stiffness in the morning. > I gave her Er Xian Tang KPC powder but she can only take 1 tiny scoop as > when she took 2 scoops, she said she felt all of her organs moving with > severe cramps. > > tongue- red, red tip, swollen, dry, coat is whitish dry, crack in the > middle > pulse-L-rapid, thin and wiry, ki is weak > -R-rapid, sticky, ki weak > > I've been using all the typical points but I don't seem to be helping her > hot flashes at all or her pain. Is there anyone out there who can help? > > I've had some great suggestions like using some of Master Tong points and > using 5 element theory. I've also added a small dose of Long Dan XGT. But > nothing seems to be working. Does anyone know what the " walking on bones " > might be? > > Thank you and I appreciate your replies. > > Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2004 Report Share Posted May 31, 2004 Hmmm...I know you didn't ask about herbs but...This may be a long shot but have you considered Gui Zhi Tang or Xiao Jian Zhong Tang--I know, sounds strange. But I have tried this and it worked beautifully for a similar patient--however her tongue was not swollen and she had a history of rheumatic fever with occasional flare ups of rh. arthritis, not fibromyalgia. Is your patient irritable? The Japanese have used these formulas for I think " Liver Qi deficiency " combined with Liver Qi stagnation, or yin/yang imbalance. If anyone knows more about these uses, I would love to hear about it and be referred to any readings in english which might be available. I stumbled on this treatment after going around with this patient for quite a while with acupuncture. I noticed that when she had " allergies " or a cold, if I released the exterior she would worsen, be absolutely unable to sleep and extremely depressed with severe hot flashes. I tried gui zhi tang out of desperation thinking the bai shao would protect the yin and I could still address the exterior symptoms. She immediately felt better than in many years, sleeping, calm emotions and gradual reduction of hot flashes not to mention rid of her cold. I guess her hot flashes were really a sign of yin/yang imbalance not yin xu (she had reported always feeling her blood " run cold " before a hot flash). We moved on to Xiao Jian Zhong Tang when she reported her mood and sleep were excellent but the hot flashes hadn't completely gone. XJZT has twice the bai shao and really seems to be doing the trick. It also has a large dose of yi tang, the chief actually, (maltose) to warm and tonify the middle jiao (I guess this helps to counterbalance stagnant liver qi). The bai shao softens the liver and can also reduce qi stagnation indirectly through this effect. The gui zhi helps the palps and opens the channels for the pain. Like I said, I stumbled on this and really don't know that much about the history of this use (though I observed one teacher in school clinic use gui zhi tang with a menopausal women and it was from that that I got the courage to try). This may not be what's up with your patient but it's an interesting use of the formula anyway. I'd be interested to find out more about the Japanese interpretations of shang han lun formulas-- any help? Also anyone else who has had similar experiences with this formula. Thanks, shanna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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