To Phil: Where does Mainstream AP fit in Chinese Integrative Medicine?

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil, can you tell me about dowsing? I have a patient that I feel

strongly needs a more spirit-oriented approach. Thanks!

 

Laura

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

<@e...> wrote:

> Hi All, & Hi Salvador,

>

> Salvador wrote:

> > I have no idea what you mean by AP can you explain? is it

> > acupuncture practice?

>

> Apologies; by AP I mean acupuncture.

>

> > ... my system ... does use astrology, and yes it does work.

>

> I agree in principle that different practitioners, using very

different

> methods, can attain good to great results.

>

> > ... what we believe is not really that relevant, it is what we can

> > prove that matters.

>

> If by " what we can prove " you mean " in my experience " , I agree

> with you.

>

> But, as scientists usually define porrf, your experience (or my

> experience, or the experience of any group of practitioners) is NOT

> PROOF. Science has no interest in personal experience, unless it

> is documented thoroughly and relates to the experience of many

> others. Also, the data must be be compared with positive and/or

> negative controls, preferably randomised, in well planned,

> structured contemporaneous trial.

>

> > I have proved to my satisfaction and others that my astrology does

> > indeed work as a spotlight that allows anyone who understands the

> > process to focus on specific meridians.

>

> ALL good therapists use their own versions of different methods on

> the basis of " I have proved to my own satisfaction " . What this

> usually means is " I believe in my method because it has worked for

> me in the past " . That is great but it is not proof, as I mentioned

> above.

>

> Some therapists have " the gift " . What they do may seem irrational

> and unscientific. However, if it works in >70% of cases, with no or

> minimal side effects, my hat goes off to them.

>

> > Is it predicting the future? NO more than I can predict which way

> > the water will come down the mountain when it overflows. For we

are

> > all aware that brooks and rivers are made from repetion of flow.

My

> > dilemma has been do I follow other people's theories which never

> > worked for me or do I take note and try to make sense of what

> > works. After many years of experimenting on myself, patients and

> > family. I have evolved theories based on the facts I have

> > encountered. Any theory is only as good as the results one gets,

> > both when applied correctly and esp when applied incorrectly.

>

> Yes, learning from mistakes is a powerful way to learn. All that I

> was saying in my last mail was that the form of AP that I

> understand you to use is NOT mainstream AP and has no

> scientific publications to support it. That does not mean that your

> system may not work for you!

>

> > What I have shared so far is part of what I know. There is a lot

> > more to my system than I have shared but that in no way

> > invalidates the info I have given to date. I am a practical man

> > with a fairly scientific approach I hate getting esoteric but..

> > There are no books for me to refer you to I am one vehicle through

> > whom this knowledge is coming through. ( HI waves to other half)

> > All information is brought through at least 2 people ,if not more,

> > after all, there has to be an element of uncertanty in life,

> > otherwise we would be automata without free will

>

> Agreed. Each must find his/her own way through the morass of

> theories.

>

> I prefer to base my diagnostic and therapeutic decisions on more

> conventionally based methods. I include WM (western medical)

> and TCM principles in my exam, and decision making. I also am

> aware of some useful ideas from other systems - geopathic forces,

> " evil eye " (malevolent psychic / spiritual attack, EMFs

> (electromagnetic fields), etc, etc. Also, I use dowsing / divining

> methods when I am stuck. Admittedly, like you, I cannot PROVE

> the scientific validity of many of those ideas, but (also like

you), I

> KNOW that they work for me sometimes.

>

> I would guess that few on this list have had first-hand experience

of

> the reality of Spirit independent of Body. Many would probably not

> even believe in that possibility. I KNOW [from my experience] that

> Spirit exists but cannot prove it to anyone else.

>

> > What I say is fairly straightforward: The universe reflects our

> > nature from the moment [of our birth]. This is a standard concept

> > embodied within Chinese knowledge, culture and wisdom. It is the

> > concept of relationships that no one and nothing exists in

> > isolation from anyone or anything else. The I Ching is a good

> > example of this. In a holographic universe, any part can be

> > comprehended from any other part or collection of parts. This is

> > the basis of all forms of astrology.

>

> The concept of the macrocosm-microcosm and hologram is widely

> held. I accept that there may be SOME validity in astrological

> ideas. There even may be certain traits in people born in a certain

> date that are statistically more (or less) common that the same

> traits in people born on different dates. BUT, IMO, it is far too

> simple (even dogmatic) to say that the moment of one's birth

> correlates in a MAJOR way with ones predisposition to specific

> meridian weaknesses of excesses. I have seen no evidence for

> that, and have not seen it stated in any translations of classicl

> Chinese medical texts.

>

> > My form of chinese astrology is very old and is widely used but

> > little understood. It reflects the nature of man in all 3 brains

> > (mental, emotional and physical) it shows us which parts we

> > struggle to integrate. and is directly correlated to the

> > meridians.

>

> Can you cite the names of any Chinese books that link astrology

> to specific Meridian imbalances?

>

> > I am the 1st to agree on my ignorance, there is so much I have yet

> > to learn.

>

> Welcome to the Club! I realised that more than 40 years ago; that

> is partly why I decided to study other systems, such as TCM,

> dowsing, homeopathy, etc. I am still struggling to learn.

>

> > All information I have shared so far is based on my observations.

> > This may indeed change as I get larger samples of patients over

> > many more years. But for the present, I will hold to my guns,

> > because that is what I have experienced.

>

> Each person must " hold to their guns " , i.e. act to their best

ability

> on their previous training, their own experiences, and according to

> their degree of trust of other colleagues. IMO, it is a great

mistake

> to become too influenced by one Guru. Wise professionals have no

> Guru; they study and listen carefully to many ideas, try the ones

> that resonate with their nature, and use only what they find works

> for them.

>

> > This is that for me A patient who is predisposed towards, say, SP

> > Xu at a root level will move according to the stresses in his /her

> > life from balance to Xu. Xu or Shi for me are just useful concepts

> > and no more. I prefer the concept of myofacial distortion in

> > either a clockwise or aticlockwise direction within the length of

> > the human anatomy encompassing the internal organs and hormonal

> > glands. I find this concept much closer to my energetic

> > experiences and reality.

>

> I have no problem with personal ideas and ways of working, if they

> get good results. But " what works " for YOU (or me) may not work

> for others.

>

> Just because my methods " work for me " , I SHOULD not suggest

> to other professionals to use them. This is especially true if my

> methods are far away from mainstream thinking in my modalities of

> working. What I CAN say is: " Here is the way I work; here is my

> thinking; consider it, if you wish, and the best of luck to you if

you

> decide to try it! "

>

> > ... " There is more than one way to skin a cat " . AP as a system is

> > provind this old adge to hold true. Phil, you mentioned a great

> > many ways to treat people with AP. I have to assume there is truth

> > in all those systems or they would not be popular. Mine is just

one

> > more angle from which to look at the valley of truth.

>

> Agreed. But your way is far away from mainstream AP. It ignores

> what I believe are very important TCM ideas and experiences.

>

> And I KNOW that it is not necessary to know (or use) classical

> AP/TCM to get great results. Some " natural healers " (born with the

> gift) may be poorly educated (even illiterate) people. I have met

> many of these people in Ireland. Some of our ancient folk-cures

> may sound like science-fiction, or superstitious nonsense, but I

> have seen several cases where they worked.

>

> Robert Chu wrote of the methods of a Master acupuncturist, Dr.

> Tung. Using Tung's method, Robert wrote that he assessed,

> diagnosed and treated 20 people in about 30 minutes (average =

> 1.5 minutes/person), using only 1-4 needles, and without using

> Pulse or Tongue Dx. That is fantastic if the results are good [and

> they may be excellent]. I wish that I could work so fast and so

> effectively! But I am slow and not that confident.

>

> On this list we also have people who get excellent results with

> surrogate pulse Dx, homeopathy, Guasha, etc. Each finds the way

> that is best for them.

>

> > I do take exception to the present use of TCM in so far as my

> > experience with patients shows me quite clealy that one has to be

> > extremely specific as to which meridians one sticks needles in as

> > well as in which direction.

>

> Again, one person's experience may be quite different to that of

> another. Classical AP texts stress different needling techniques

for

> Bu and Xie, different methods of balancing the same energetic

> problem. Many texts STRESS the need to get Deqi [the Qi arrival].

> However, little or no controlled research is published to confirm

> ANY of these claims. What research is published on Deqi is quite

> contradictory. More importantly, many AP methods that elicit NO

> perceptible Deqi (Toyohari needleless AP, LLLT-AP, some forms of

> massage, Qigong-AP, etc) can give very good results.

> Conclusion?: Deqi is NOT as important as some TCM texts

> suggest.

>

> One may ask: " Are ANY of the TCM ideas (5-Phases, 6-Levels, 8-

> Principles, etc) valid? " . IMO, many ARE valid (proven by personal

> experience) in clinical practice, but few have been researched in

> critical controlled trials. This is why " science " does not accept

> them ... yet.

>

> IMO, assuming basic intelligence, and good training, a critical

> aspect of healing is the Yi/Intention of the healer. If Healer X

> believes that he/she must dance in crow-feathers for 2 minutes

> before the client arrives, THAT IS IMPORTANT for the success of

> THAT therapist. Without the feather-dance ritual, the confidence of

> the healer is less, and doubts about " being properly prepared "

> creep in.

>

> > I have a patient who is LU Shi and LI Xu. Initially she had many

> > symptoms of chronic fatigue syndrome and sleepiness. She was

> > highly sensitive to treat. Initially even though she had a many LV

> > Xue Xu symptoms she would feel a lot worse if I tonifed her LV

Xue.

> > I had to stay focused to Reduce (Xie) LU and Reinforce (Bu) LI.

> > Gradually as she got better she would get more in touch with her

> > repressed anger and grief and she would feel better from the very

> > occasional even needleing of LV03 on her left foot only. Any other

> > LV point would make her feel sick and nauseous. Via the Ko Cycle,

> > her LU Shi was controlling LV. No book on TCM I have ever come

> > across would have allowed me to make the specific diagnosis or

> > treatment that has made her better and allowed her to have the

> > energy to go through labour and to look after her now 1 year old

> > daughter.

>

> I agree that a few books may not hold the answer to all questions

> that arise in practice. However, TCM Pattern Differentiation is

very

> well developed. Using S & Ss (signs & symptoms), a therapist well

> trained in TCM can often suspect Pattern(s) and its/their the root

> problem. Further tests, by Pulse, Tongue, urine colour, pendulum

> (dowsing), kinesiology (even in surrogates), etc can give the

> confirmation that the therapist needs for Dx. A correct Dx suggests

> the correct AP points, or the herbs needed.

>

> Yes, some people are supersensitive responders, and may react

> adversely to the usual points. One must adapt one's treatment in

> line with the response of the client.

>

> > Over the last couple of years I have received people who have been

> > to TCM, Herbalists and 5 element acupuncturists. My approach

> > proved much more efficacious. This is not a put down on the other

> > modalities as ultimately it is the healer, aided by the tools

that

> > makes the difference not the other way around.

>

> Agreed. The healer, and his/her Yi are important. Different

healers,

> using different methods can get great results; and different

healers

> using the same " textbook methods " can get different results.

>

> > My system uses astrology but is is much more than that It has

> > existential concepts that helps to make sense of illness too and

> > much more.

>

> I would hope that ALL healers aware of spirit try to make sense of

> illness.

>

> > I am getting close to the point in which I am saying I can tell

> > you about an orange but that won't let you know what it tastes

> > like. Let me be totally arrogant and say That IMO there is as much

> > to be learn from spending some time with me as from going all the

> > way to China but then I would say that Salvador

>

> Having studied AP & TCM for more than 40 years, I am reluctant to

> jettison its mainline ideas for a new system that has

unsatisfactory

> documentation. Maybe many other clinicians may prove you

> correct in time, but proving a complete SYSTEM takes a long time,

> and comparing its efficacy to existing systems takes even longer.

>

> Salvador, I admire your openness, your willingness to share, and

> your confidence in your methods. But it would take a lot of

> convincing for me to put such confidence in astrology as a key

> factor in diagnosing specific meridian imbalances. Doubly so, when

> many of us can diagnose these and other imbalances with TCM

> and/or other methods, such as dowsing (which I use occasionally).

>

> Having said that, I admit that dowsing is as far off the wall as

> astrology in the eyes of sceptical scientists.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

[Guest guest]

Hi All, & Hi Laura,

 

> Hi Phil, can you tell me about dowsing? I have a patient that I

> feel strongly needs a more spirit-oriented approach. Thanks! Laura

 

Laura, dowsing (divining) is an ANIMAL (6th sense / intuitive)

phenomenon. Animals can sense (outside of the 5 usual senses)

where their young are, where to find food & water, where predators

are, etc.

 

Therefore, there is nothing specifically human or spiritual about it. It

is a survival instinct, more commonly expressed in the wild, and in

dangerous situations.

 

However, many people have the dowsing sense in a low form - i.e.

poorly developed because they are far away from nature, and do

not need it as much in modern society. Also, some people have

dowsing instincts more highly developed than others. They often

can increase its accuracy by training and use of the facility.

 

Water divining is the most commonly known form of dowsing. The

seeker divines over the search area (in-situ dowsing - physically

walking over the area), or over an accurate MAP of the area (distant

dowsing).

 

Most dowsers use a tool to amplify their involuntary muscle

twitches when they pass over the " searched-for " location. The

common tools are:

 

(a) the " Divining Rod " . This is a V- or Y-shaped rod, twig or bent

coat-hanger, held near the ends of the V or Y in an unstable

position, just on the brink between stability (balance) & instability

(imbalance).

 

(b) " Angle Irons " . These are L-shaped iron rods with a handle circa

4 nches and a search piece of 12-18 inches bent at right angle to

the handle. Once can make angle irons from a wire coat-hanger.

Cut 2 lengths of circa 22 inches, and bend a right angle on each,

circa 4 inches from one end. Use the barrel of a cheap biro as a

sleeve for each handle, to allow it to move freely. Hold the sleeves

in each hand and adjust the angle irons so that they point

horizontally forward, about 15 inches apart and parallel to each

other.

 

Then start the walk or mental dowse. A " Hit " is registered when the

arm muscles move involuntarily to cause the tips of the angle irons

to swing together, or to swing away from each other.

 

© The " Pendulum " : [My preferred tool; see below]

 

(d) There are other tools (rubbing pads, bob-sticks, etc).

 

(e) No external tools: Some dowsers use no external tools. Instead

they programme their bodies to register special sensations (tickle,

itch, eye-twitch, finger-twitch, etc) as the " Hit " .

 

The Omura B-DORT (Bi-Digital O-Ring Test) is an example of

subconscious dowsing. It uses one's own, or the patient's, or a

surrogate's thumbs and index fingers in inter-locked Os. One

dowses for Channel Blockages, allergens, etc. by comparing the

force needed to pull the interlocked Os apart. This method is also

used by some kinaesiologists.

 

Some dowsers do " Mental Scans " , visualising the search area in

their mind's eye; they programme a flashing light, or colour change,

as the hit " when they locate the dowsed-for location, or " Yes "

answer to a specific question held in their mind..

 

PENDULUM: I prefer the pendulum for medical/veterinary

diagnostic use. I am right-handed, so I hold the pendulum (in my

case, a gold chain, circa 3 inches long) between the tips of my

right thumb and index fingers) and start it swinging in a direction to

and away from my solar plexus. That is the " Neutral " (or " No " )

movement or swing.

 

I programme in the following mindset before I begin the diagnstic

dowse: " This pendulum (now moving to and away from me) will

change its direction from its neutral movement and gyrate in an

anticlockwise circle as my search hand passes over abnormal

areas, or relevant AP points to treat " .

 

Then, I move my search (left) hand slowly over the search area,

say the BL line of the animal or human, with the tip of my left index

finger gently touching the hair/skin. I note precisely where the

pendulum changes its swing and gyrates in the " Yes " mode.

 

There are many other ways to use a pendulum or other search tool.

For more detail, read a few books on dowsing, or see my paper on

Psychic Methods in Medicine at:

 

 

The dowsing instinct can be used in infinite ways. For example, an

adept can use it to locate lesions, or blockages in the body, which

Channels are in Excess or Deficient, etc.

 

From Are Thoresen, I learned to use the Pulses to fnd the

WEAKEST Channel. Are believes (and I agree) that most chronic

problems have their ROOT in DEFICIENCY (Xu). That Xu allows

that Channel to be attacked or blocked by external or internal

factors.

 

A Root Xu, or its subsequent secondary stasis/blockage/excess,

can impact on the Son, Grandson, Mother, or Controlling Channel

via the Five Phase Cycle. It can also impact on its Paired CHannel

in the Yin-Yang Pairs, or its preceeding or following Channel in the

Qi Cyclw (24-hour body clock: LU-LI-ST-SP, etc)

 

When I Dx the weakest Channel (by the weakest Pulse), I then do

a pendulum dowse, touching the Ting (Jing-Well) Point of each

Channel with the mental question: Is THIS the weakest Channel?

 

Very often the Pulse and Pendulum Dx agree. In that case, I will

needle the Mother Point of that Channel, for example KI07 (Metal)

Point if KI is the weakest Channel.

 

A word of warning! Some people go overboard on dowsing. They

use it all the time, become lazy re history-taking and standard

examination methods, etc. They often diagnose crazy/implausable

things, ignoring evidence from the OTHER FIVE senses. I use

dowsing ONLY when evidence from the other five senses does not

allow me to reach a satisfactory diagnosis.

 

Also, beware! 6th sense Dx (at least in my hands) is NOT as

reliable as Dx by conventional methods. If there is conflict between

6th-Sense (Irrational/Intuitive) and Rational methods, use the

Rational first. If that fails to produce good clinical results, maybe

try the Irrational.

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Phil

Rogers "

<@e...> wrote: > Hi All, & Hi Salvador, > > Salvador

wrote:

> > I have no idea what you mean by AP can you explain? is it > >

acupuncture practice? > > Apologies; by AP I mean acupuncture.

> > >

.... my system ... does use astrology, and yes it does work. > > I

agree in principle that different practitioners, using very different

> methods, can attain good to great results. > > > ... what we believe

is not really that relevant, it is what we can > > prove that matters.

> > If by " what we can prove " you mean " in my experience " , I agree >

with you. > > But, as scientists usually define porrf, your

experience

(or my > experience, or the experience of any group of practitioners)

is NOT > PROOF. Science has no interest in personal experience, unless

it > is documented thoroughly and relates to the experience of many >

others. Also, the data must be be compared with positive and/or >

negative controls, preferably randomised, in well planned, >

structured contemporaneous trial. > > > I have proved to my

satisfaction and others that my astrology does > > indeed work as a

spotlight that allows anyone who understands the > > process to focus

on specific meridians. > > ALL good therapists use their own versions

of different methods on > the basis of " I have proved to my own

satisfaction " . What this > usually means is " I believe in my method

because it has worked for > me in the past " . That is great but it is

not proof, as I mentioned > above. > > Some therapists have " the

gift " . What they do may seem irrational > and unscientific. However,

if it works in >70% of cases, with no or > minimal side effects, my

hat goes off to them. > > > Is it predicting the future? NO more than

I can predict which way > > the water will come down the mountain when

it overflows. For we are > > all aware that brooks and rivers are made

from repetion of flow. My > > dilemma has been do I follow other

people's theories which never > > worked for me or do I take note and

try to make sense of what > > works. After many years of experimenting

on myself, patients and > > family. I have evolved theories based on

the facts I have > > encountered. Any theory is only as good as the

results one gets, > > both when applied correctly and esp when applied

incorrectly. > > Yes, learning from mistakes is a powerful way to

learn. All that I > was saying in my last mail was that the form of AP

that I > understand you to use is NOT mainstream AP and has no >

scientific publications to support it. That does not mean that your >

system may not work for you! > > > What I have shared so far is part

of what I know. There is a lot > > more to my system than I have

shared but that in no way > > invalidates the info I have given to

date. I am a practical man > > with a fairly scientific approach I

hate getting esoteric but.. > > There are no books for me to refer you

to I am one vehicle through > > whom this knowledge is coming through.

( HI waves to other half) > > All information is brought through at

least 2 people ,if not more, > > after all, there has to be an element

of uncertanty in life, > > otherwise we would be automata without free

will > > Agreed. Each must find his/her own way through the morass

of > theories. > > I prefer to base my diagnostic and therapeutic

decisions on more > conventionally based methods. I include WM

(western medical) > and TCM principles in my exam, and decision

making. I also am > aware of some useful ideas from other systems -

geopathic forces, > " evil eye " (malevolent psychic / spiritual attack,

EMFs > (electromagnetic fields), etc, etc. Also, I use dowsing /

divining > methods when I am stuck. Admittedly, like you, I cannot

PROVE > the scientific validity of many of those ideas, but (also like

you), I > KNOW that they work for me sometimes. > > I would guess that

few on this list have had first-hand experience of > the reality of

Spirit independent of Body. Many would probably not > even believe in

that possibility. I KNOW [from my experience] that > Spirit exists but

cannot prove it to anyone else. > > > What I say is fairly

straightforward: The universe reflects our > > nature from the moment

[of our birth]. This is a standard concept > > embodied within Chinese

knowledge, culture and wisdom. It is the > > concept of relationships

that no one and nothing exists in > > isolation from anyone or

anything else. The I Ching is a good > > example of this. In a

holographic universe, any part can be > > comprehended from any other

part or collection of parts. This is > > the basis of all forms of

astrology. > > The concept of the macrocosm-microcosm and hologram is

widely > held. I accept that there may be SOME validity in

astrological > ideas. There even may be certain traits in people born

in a certain > date that are statistically more (or less) common that

the same > traits in people born on different dates. BUT, IMO, it is

far too > simple (even dogmatic) to say that the moment of one's birth

> correlates in a MAJOR way with ones predisposition to specific >

meridian weaknesses of excesses. I have seen no evidence for > that,

and have not seen it stated in any translations of classicl > Chinese

medical texts. > > > My form of chinese astrology is very old and is

widely used but > > little understood. It reflects the nature of man

in all 3 brains > > (mental, emotional and physical) it shows us

which parts we > > struggle to integrate. and is directly correlated

to the > > meridians. > > Can you cite the names of any Chinese books

that link astrology > to specific Meridian imbalances? > > > I am the

1st to agree on my ignorance, there is so much I have yet > > to

learn. > > Welcome to the Club! I realised that more than 40 years

ago; that > is partly why I decided to study other systems, such as

TCM, > dowsing, homeopathy, etc. I am still struggling to learn. > > >

All information I have shared so far is based on my observations. > >

This may indeed change as I get larger samples of patients over > >

many more years. But for the present, I will hold to my guns, > >

because that is what I have experienced. > > Each person must " hold to

their guns " , i.e. act to their best ability > on their previous

training, their own experiences, and according to > their degree of

trust of other colleagues. IMO, it is a great mistake > to become too

influenced by one Guru. Wise professionals have no > Guru; they study

and listen carefully to many ideas, try the ones > that resonate with

their nature, and use only what they find works > for them. > > > This

is that for me A patient who is predisposed towards, say, SP > > Xu at

a root level will move according to the stresses in his /her > > life

from balance to Xu. Xu or Shi for me are just useful concepts > > and

no more. I prefer the concept of myofacial distortion in > > either a

clockwise or aticlockwise direction within the length of > > the human

anatomy encompassing the internal organs and hormonal > > glands. I

find this concept much closer to my energetic > > experiences and

reality. > > I have no problem with personal ideas and ways of

working, if they > get good results. But " what works " for YOU (or me)

may not work > for others. > > Just because my methods " work for me " ,

I SHOULD not suggest > to other professionals to use them. This is

especially true if my > methods are far away from mainstream thinking

in my modalities of > working. What I CAN say is: " Here is the way I

work; here is my > thinking; consider it, if you wish, and the best of

luck to you if you > decide to try it! " > > > ... " There is more than

one way to skin a cat " . AP as a system is > > provind this old adge to

hold true. Phil, you mentioned a great > > many ways to treat people

with AP. I have to assume there is truth > > in all those systems or

they would not be popular. Mine is just one > > more angle from which

to look at the valley of truth. > > Agreed. But your way is far away

from mainstream AP. It ignores > what I believe are very important TCM

ideas and experiences. > > And I KNOW that it is not necessary to know

(or use) classical > AP/TCM to get great results. Some " natural

healers " (born with the > gift) may be poorly educated (even

illiterate) people. I have met > many of these people in Ireland. Some

of our ancient folk-cures > may sound like science-fiction, or

superstitious nonsense, but I > have seen several cases where they

worked. > > Robert Chu wrote of the methods of a Master acupuncturist,

Dr. > Tung. Using Tung's method, Robert wrote that he assessed, >

diagnosed and treated 20 people in about 30 minutes (average = > 1.5

minutes/person), using only 1-4 needles, and without using > Pulse or

Tongue Dx. That is fantastic if the results are good [and > they may

be excellent]. I wish that I could work so fast and so > effectively!

But I am slow and not that confident. > > On this list we also have

people who get excellent results with > surrogate pulse Dx,

homeopathy, Guasha, etc. Each finds the way > that is best for them. >

> > I do take exception to the present use of TCM in so far as my > >

experience with patients shows me quite clealy that one has to be > >

extremely specific as to which meridians one sticks needles in as > >

well as in which direction. > > Again, one person's experience may be

quite different to that of > another. Classical AP texts stress

different needling techniques for > Bu and Xie, different methods of

balancing the same energetic > problem. Many texts STRESS the need to

get Deqi [the Qi arrival]. > However, little or no controlled research

is published to confirm > ANY of these claims. What research is

published on Deqi is quite > contradictory. More importantly, many AP

methods that elicit NO > perceptible Deqi (Toyohari needleless AP,

LLLT-AP, some forms of > massage, Qigong-AP, etc) can give very good

results. > Conclusion?: Deqi is NOT as important as some TCM texts >

suggest. > > One may ask: " Are ANY of the TCM ideas (5-Phases,

6-Levels, 8- > Principles, etc) valid? " . IMO, many ARE valid (proven

by personal > experience) in clinical practice, but few have been

researched in > critical controlled trials. This is why " science " does

not accept > them ... yet. > > IMO, assuming basic intelligence, and

good training, a critical > aspect of healing is the Yi/Intention of

the healer. If Healer X > believes that he/she must dance in

crow-feathers for 2 minutes > before the client arrives, THAT IS

IMPORTANT for the success of > THAT therapist. Without the

feather-dance ritual, the confidence of > the healer is less, and

doubts about " being properly prepared " > creep in. > > > I have a

patient who is LU Shi and LI Xu. Initially she had many > > symptoms

of chronic fatigue syndrome and sleepiness. She was > > highly

sensitive to treat. Initially even though she had a many LV > > Xue Xu

symptoms she would feel a lot worse if I tonifed her LV Xue. > > I had

to stay focused to Reduce (Xie) LU and Reinforce (Bu) LI. > >

Gradually as she got better she would get more in touch with her > >

repressed anger and grief and she would feel better from the very > >

occasional even needleing of LV03 on her left foot only. Any other > >

LV point would make her feel sick and nauseous. Via the Ko Cycle, > >

her LU Shi was controlling LV. No book on TCM I have ever come > >

across would have allowed me to make the specific diagnosis or > >

treatment that has made her better and allowed her to have the > >

energy to go through labour and to look after her now 1 year old > >

daughter. > > I agree that a few books may not hold the answer to all

questions > that arise in practice. However, TCM Pattern

Differentiation is very > well developed. Using S & Ss (signs &

symptoms), a therapist well > trained in TCM can often suspect

Pattern(s) and its/their the root > problem. Further tests, by Pulse,

Tongue, urine colour, pendulum > (dowsing), kinesiology (even in

surrogates), etc can give the > confirmation that the therapist needs

for Dx. A correct Dx suggests > the correct AP points, or the herbs

needed. > > Yes, some people are supersensitive responders, and may

react > adversely to the usual points. One must adapt one's treatment

in > line with the response of the client. > > > Over the last couple

of years I have received people who have been > > to TCM, Herbalists

and 5 element acupuncturists. My approach > > proved much more

efficacious. This is not a put down on the other > > modalities as

ultimately it is the healer, aided by the tools that > > makes the

difference not the other way around. > > Agreed. The healer, and

his/her Yi are important. Different healers, > using different methods

can get great results; and different healers > using the same

" textbook methods " can get different results. > > > My system uses

astrology but is is much more than that It has > > existential

concepts that helps to make sense of illness too and > > much more. >

> I would hope that ALL healers aware of spirit try to make sense of >

illness. > > > I am getting close to the point in which I am saying I

can tell > > you about an orange but that won't let you know what it

tastes > > like. Let me be totally arrogant and say That IMO there is

as much > > to be learn from spending some time with me as from going

all the > > way to China but then I would say that Salvador > >

Having studied AP & TCM for more than 40 years, I am reluctant to >

jettison its mainline ideas for a new system that has unsatisfactory >

documentation. Maybe many other clinicians may prove you > correct in

time, but proving a complete SYSTEM takes a long time, > and comparing

its efficacy to existing systems takes even longer. > > Salvador, I

admire your openness, your willingness to share, and > your confidence

in your methods. But it would take a lot of > convincing for me to put

such confidence in astrology as a key > factor in diagnosing specific

meridian imbalances. Doubly so, when > many of us can diagnose these

and other imbalances with TCM > and/or other methods, such as dowsing

(which I use occasionally). > > Having said that, I admit that dowsing

is as far off the wall as > astrology in the eyes of sceptical

scientists. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------