Slept with Ren 4 stabbing me in my stomach....

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

 

I have a rather unusual problem I am hoping to get some advice on. I

am an acupuncturist, and I used to get great results using Ren 4 to

help me sleep. But then one night I fell asleep so deeply that I

forgot to take the point out, thereby enabling me to spend the night

laying on my stomach grinding it into my belly. Do Not Try This At

Home! Every since then my old interstitial cystitis (considered an

autoimmune disease) has return, big and bad. To make it more

complicated, I had recently had a cold-damp pathogen invade my stomah

and was still treating it, draining it through my poor stabbed

bladder.

 

So the problem seems to be a combination of the trauma indured from

sleeping on the needle plus the cold-damp pathogen drained from my

stomach to my bladder, which was in a traumatized state and unable to

process it. Thus the cold-damp remains. This causes frequent

urination and every evening during the UB time on the Chinese clock I

get a thick white coat on the back of my tongue (and a nasty damp

taste in my mouth....Yuck!). The worst part is that the type of

herbs that normally help me sleep make the problem worse (qi and

blood tonics help me sleep). You all may have read another post of

mine where I talk about trying some homeopathy to treat all this, and

it turning into a hypothyroid syndrome......welcome to my own

personal hell! But don't worry too much about lil ole' me, because

I have many other things in my life that are good. But I must admit,

all this is really kinda getting to me. This a highly unusual

situation, but if anyone has any advise I would be greatful for many

lifetimes to come!

 

Laura

[Guest guest]

Hi Laura!

 

Never use this point in the US on a patient, too many lawyers, but since

you are needling yourself you could try Ren 1. If you fell asleep no matter

how you rolled you would not lay on it. I find massaging Ren 1 relaxing and

I have also used 5 star not only on Ren 1 but all over my scrotum with good

result on a local skin condition, but I have never tried it on anyone else

in my own practice and only one patient as an intern, too much potential

for misunderstanding.

 

At 08:35 AM 5/26/2004, you wrote:

>Hi all,

>

>I have a rather unusual problem I am hoping to get some advice on. I am

>an acupuncturist, and I used to get great results using Ren 4

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete,

 

Thanks for responding. I have wondered whether Ren 1 might work for

me, but haven't tried it yet. Were you thinking that it might help

heal the trauma from sleeping on Ren 4, or that it might help me

sleep? The Ren channel is so different from other channels in terms

of treating pain that I cannot figure out how to treat the trauma.

How does one treat stagnation on the Ren Channel? The one treatment

that I've found that helps is: Ren 6, LI 4, Liv 3.

 

Laura

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen

<petet@a...> wrote:

> Hi Laura!

>

> Never use this point in the US on a patient, too many lawyers, but

since

> you are needling yourself you could try Ren 1. If you fell asleep

no matter

> how you rolled you would not lay on it. I find massaging Ren 1

relaxing and

> I have also used 5 star not only on Ren 1 but all over my scrotum

with good

> result on a local skin condition, but I have never tried it on

anyone else

> in my own practice and only one patient as an intern, too much

potential

> for misunderstanding.

>

> At 08:35 AM 5/26/2004, you wrote:

> >Hi all,

> >

> >I have a rather unusual problem I am hoping to get some advice

on. I am

> >an acupuncturist, and I used to get great results using Ren 4

>

> Regards,

>

> Pete

[Guest guest]

Hi Laura!

 

I was thinking it might help you sleep, since I have found massaging it and

seven starring Ren 1 to be relaxing - remember, only on yourself, never on

a patient because of the lawyers. The trauma, that sounds more complex than

what I would attempt to differentiate over the list and treat with one

point. How long ago did this trauma happen and have the symptoms lessened

with whatever you have done so far?

 

At 06:31 AM 5/27/2004, you wrote:

>Hi Pete,

>

>Thanks for responding. I have wondered whether Ren 1 might work for

>me, but haven't tried it yet. Were you thinking that it might help

>heal the trauma from sleeping on Ren 4, or that it might help me

>sleep?

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag "

<heylaurag@h...> wrote:

> Hi Pete,

>

> Thanks for responding. I have wondered whether Ren 1 might work

for

> me, but haven't tried it yet. Were you thinking that it might

help

> heal the trauma from sleeping on Ren 4, or that it might help me

> sleep? The Ren channel is so different from other channels in

terms

> of treating pain that I cannot figure out how to treat the trauma.

> How does one treat stagnation on the Ren Channel? The one

treatment

> that I've found that helps is: Ren 6, LI 4, Liv 3.

 

_________________________

 

 

to Heylaurag Pete and any one else

 

There is a saying (amended by me for this occasion) " " Happy are they

who are totally ignorant, happy are they who are wise, but woe un to

them that have a little knowledge " .

 

There is another saying " Healer heal thyself " but we can't do that

with just a little knowledge. Time and again I have given examples

of the danger of innapropriate acupuncture points. Such tinkering

as Ren-4 or Ren-1 or any other body point for that matter will make

you sick if it is innapropriate to your individual make up. even

more so if you continue to interfere with it.

 

If you need help, find yourself someone experienced and willingly

pay for the privilige. After all, you'd like people to come to you

and pay you for your skill, right?

 

 

Salvador

http://www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

[Guest guest]

Laura:

> Thanks for responding. I have wondered whether Ren 1 might work for

> me, but haven't tried it yet. Were you thinking that it might help

> heal the trauma from sleeping on Ren 4, or that it might help me

> sleep? The Ren channel is so different from other channels in terms

> of treating pain that I cannot figure out how to treat the trauma.

> How does one treat stagnation on the Ren Channel? The one treatment

> that I've found that helps is: Ren 6, LI 4, Liv 3.

>

>

It looks like one of two conditions:

a. a stagnation from injury

b. an asymmetry in the extraordinary channels, viz. ren-yin qiao mai pair.

 

Since it's an odd condition it is best to diagnose and treat after one is

certain. The

fear here is to get rid of symptoms by mutating these into another ogre

which will

surface in later life.

 

a. a stagnation from injury:

palpate whole ren pathway and look for -

[ ] cold

[ ] heat

[ ] stagnation

[ ] induration

[ ] fibrosis

[ ] emptiness, a caving in

[ ] fullness, an elevated tissue level

[ ] roughness

[ ] undue smoothness

[ ] softness

[ ] hardness

[ ] varicosity

[ ] capillary invasion

[ ] importantly, a veering off of the channel ipsilaterally

[ ] etc

 

Look for a before and after condition -

[ ] full before injury location

[ ] empty after injury location

 

Do the same for the yin qiao pathway from foot to termination.

 

b. an asymmetry in the extraordinary channels, viz. ren-yin qiao mai pair

 

If this has happened there may a new set of symptoms which are beginning to

surface

and which need to be identified.

 

Pre-treatment procedure:

 

If you do find evidence to think of a or b, don't treat till you have tried

out

releasing a reflex point with the treatment point, best by finger pressure.

 

If you follow this line and need input let me know.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

Hi Laura,

 

Thinking a bit about the history you gave regarding your problems, I wonder

about the degree of cold-damp you suffer considering your interstitial cystitis

(IC) symptoms. IC is virtually always involved with a heat pathogen in my

experience. I would suggest looking closely at if heat or cold predominate or a

complex mixture of both (rare but not impossible). As for treatment, I would

suggest you employ opposite-type points, especially on lower GV points such as

GV 3 and also Bladder 28. As you have a sensitivity to direct points, these

opposite points (opposite to your trauma point) should be better suited for you.

Of course, if cold is really a problem, moxa could be used but please be careful

about this as IC is so typically a heat problem. I have had several patients

find at least temporary relief from IC symptoms by drinking lots of barley grass

juice which is quite cooling including to the bladder. And IC also tends to be

quite sensitive to stress levels so any progress there should help also. Good

luck with your recovery - Matt Bauer

-

heylaurag

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, May 26, 2004 5:35 AM

Slept with Ren 4 stabbing me in my stomach....

 

 

Hi all,

 

I have a rather unusual problem I am hoping to get some advice on. I

am an acupuncturist, and I used to get great results using Ren 4 to

help me sleep. But then one night I fell asleep so deeply that I

forgot to take the point out, thereby enabling me to spend the night

laying on my stomach grinding it into my belly. Do Not Try This At

Home! Every since then my old interstitial cystitis (considered an

autoimmune disease) has return, big and bad. To make it more

complicated, I had recently had a cold-damp pathogen invade my stomah

and was still treating it, draining it through my poor stabbed

bladder.

 

So the problem seems to be a combination of the trauma indured from

sleeping on the needle plus the cold-damp pathogen drained from my

stomach to my bladder, which was in a traumatized state and unable to

process it. Thus the cold-damp remains. This causes frequent

urination and every evening during the UB time on the Chinese clock I

get a thick white coat on the back of my tongue (and a nasty damp

taste in my mouth....Yuck!). The worst part is that the type of

herbs that normally help me sleep make the problem worse (qi and

blood tonics help me sleep). You all may have read another post of

mine where I talk about trying some homeopathy to treat all this, and

it turning into a hypothyroid syndrome......welcome to my own

personal hell! But don't worry too much about lil ole' me, because

I have many other things in my life that are good. But I must admit,

all this is really kinda getting to me. This a highly unusual

situation, but if anyone has any advise I would be greatful for many

lifetimes to come!

 

Laura

 

 

 

Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious,

spam messages,flame another member or swear.

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

delivered.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Salvador!

 

You know, you have said things like this a couple of times now. Let me

share my experience.

 

I interned for three years in the mid 90s with more than a hundred students

in a big school. We most of the time had *no* supervision while we were

needling, the Chinese doctors wanted to leave us on our own. I have never

heard of making anyone sick with acupuncture outside of a pneumothorax

injury, which we were cautioned against, and *that* never happened either.

 

Seems to me that if it were possible to make someone sick with the wrong

choice of a needling prescription it would have happened in this situation.

I know for a fact that some of the needle prescriptions at the school were

" wrong " . Patients got better with the " wrong " prescriptions. Most likely

would have had a better result with the " right " prescription, but

nevertheless got better with the " wrong " one as well.

 

There was a big controversy a number of years ago over a right vs. sham

acupuncture study. The critics contended that since the control patients

enjoyed a benefit as well as the experimental patients, that acupuncture is

therefore a placebo treatment.

 

At 08:59 AM 5/27/2004, you wrote:<snip>

Such tinkering

>as Ren-4 or Ren-1 or any other body point for that matter will make you

>sick if it is innapropriate to your individual make up. even more so if

>you continue to interfere with it.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen

<petet@a...> wrote:

> Hi Salvador!

>> needling, the Chinese doctors wanted to leave us on our own. I

have never

> heard of making anyone sick with acupuncture outside of a

pneumothorax

> injury, which we were cautioned against, and *that* never happened

either.

>

> Seems to me that if it were possible to make someone sick with the

wrong

> choice of a needling prescription it would have happened in this

situation.

 

_________________________________

 

 

Let me not mince words with you Pete

 

For the benefit of the group since you know that there is no

problem if you stick a needle in the wrong place. I suggest in the

spirit of learning, that you send me your date of birth off line.

Also fill in my online form as fully as possible.

http://www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com/1form.htm

 

I will then suggest some points for you to try over three session.

For which I would hope you can find a buddy acupuncturist who can

find the points to stick in you. You in turn will share with the

group how you feel over the succeding 3-4 days after each session.

 

The purpose of the points chosen will be to excarcebate what ever

dysharmonies you presently have. But since one cannot go wrong with

acupuncture you have nothing to fear...?

 

salvador

[Guest guest]

Hi Salvador,

 

With all due respect, I do get good results with my patients, and I

do not feel like I am someone who has " little knowledge " of Chinese

medicine. Also, Ren 4 WAS helpful to me---very helpful. The problem

is that it was tooooooooooo helpful: I fell asleep and rolled over

on it and slept through the night with it grinding in my stomach.

That, I think, is a very unusual situation. I have been to many of

the most respected practitioners in Seattle, and no one has been able

to successfully treat me---precisely because it is an unusual

situation. Sorry to get defensive, but, well, I felt defensive. I

have plenty to learn--TCM offers a lifetime of learning...but at the

same time I do feel proud of the good results that I get with my

patients. Consequently I don't like someone implying that I am

ignorant of TCM.

 

No bad feelings though, I just wanted to say that.

 

Laura

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " salvador_march "

<salvador_march@h...> wrote:

> Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag "

> <heylaurag@h...> wrote:

> > Hi Pete,

> >

> > Thanks for responding. I have wondered whether Ren 1 might work

> for

> > me, but haven't tried it yet. Were you thinking that it might

> help

> > heal the trauma from sleeping on Ren 4, or that it might help me

> > sleep? The Ren channel is so different from other channels in

> terms

> > of treating pain that I cannot figure out how to treat the

trauma.

> > How does one treat stagnation on the Ren Channel? The one

> treatment

> > that I've found that helps is: Ren 6, LI 4, Liv 3.

>

> _________________________

>

>

> to Heylaurag Pete and any one else

>

> There is a saying (amended by me for this occasion) " " Happy are

they

> who are totally ignorant, happy are they who are wise, but woe un

to

> them that have a little knowledge " .

>

> There is another saying " Healer heal thyself " but we can't do that

> with just a little knowledge. Time and again I have given examples

> of the danger of innapropriate acupuncture points. Such tinkering

> as Ren-4 or Ren-1 or any other body point for that matter will

make

> you sick if it is innapropriate to your individual make up. even

> more so if you continue to interfere with it.

>

> If you need help, find yourself someone experienced and willingly

> pay for the privilige. After all, you'd like people to come to you

> and pay you for your skill, right?

>

>

> Salvador

> http://www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Salvador,

>

> I will then suggest some points for you to try over three session.

> For which I would hope you can find a buddy acupuncturist who can

> find the points to stick in you. You in turn will share with the

> group how you feel over the succeding 3-4 days after each session.

>

> The purpose of the points chosen will be to excarcebate what ever

> dysharmonies you presently have. But since one cannot go wrong with

> acupuncture you have nothing to fear...?

>

> salvador

 

Does this work with acupressure points? If so, I would gladly

voluteer. My wife can do all of the work. Thanks,

 

Rich

[Guest guest]

Hi Matt,

 

Thanks so much for responding. I have tried doing lower Du points

and huatoujiaji points and they have been helpful, so that's

definitely some good advice. I agree with you that most of the time

I've seen heat with IC, but I have no doubt that mine is related to

cold---but, as you mentioned, there may also be some heat. I

developed IC when I was about 21 years old (before I ever knew

anything about TCM) after I had read about the health benefits of

drinking water. I had started carrying around a water bottle and was

guzzling it regularly, thinking it was good for me. During that same

time I was a vegetarian who naively thought that as long as I ate

lots and lots of cereal with lots and lots of milk I was getting what

I would have gotten from meat (and I was eating lots and lots of cold

raw salads). Big mistake! That's also when my tendency toward

insomnia started (blood deficient type---warm, qi and blood tonic Shi

Quan Da Bu Wan is the formula works for my sleep). So between all

the cold damp milk and lack of meat and raw cold food and guzzling

water I developed insomnia (blood deficient type) and interstitial

cystitis (cold damp type). Years later I started studying TCM and

the thing that helped my IC was moxa on K 3. My IC was pretty much a

non-issue until I slept on Ren 4 (cringe). Everytime I think about

doing that I cringe. In terms of herbs, even neutral temperature

damp draining herbs make me cold since this happened. I wound up

turning to western herbs for help because there really aren't warm

damp drainging herbs in chinese medicine that I could find....parsley

helped a lot. My tongue has not been getting coated in back as much

since I took a formula with parsley, but there is still frequency and

pain. So I am certain that there is cold-damp in my bladder. But I

will say that there must be some heat in me along with cold because I

do tend to flush easily and despite all the cold tendencies I have

pretty high metabolism.

 

Just writing this post and reading responses has helped because I'm

realizing that I need to get someone to treat me regularly doing the

Ren 6, LI 4, Liv 3 along with the treatment you described on my

back. I've been so busy in the past year since this happened that

I've neglected to do that, only trying to address this problem here

and there. For awhile I was focused on trying to treat it with

herbs, and that helped, but now I believe acupuncture is the answer

to finish resolving the problem.

 

By the way, when I have needled Ren 4 it has been very sticky and

difficult to needle through, and it was never that way before (more

cringing). Thanks for your help, and let me know if you think of any

other ideas. Sorry for the long-winded post---

 

Laura

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Matt Bauer "

<acu.guy@g...> wrote:

> Hi Laura,

>

> Thinking a bit about the history you gave regarding your problems,

I wonder about the degree of cold-damp you suffer considering your

interstitial cystitis (IC) symptoms. IC is virtually always involved

with a heat pathogen in my experience. I would suggest looking

closely at if heat or cold predominate or a complex mixture of both

(rare but not impossible). As for treatment, I would suggest you

employ opposite-type points, especially on lower GV points such as GV

3 and also Bladder 28. As you have a sensitivity to direct points,

these opposite points (opposite to your trauma point) should be

better suited for you. Of course, if cold is really a problem, moxa

could be used but please be careful about this as IC is so typically

a heat problem. I have had several patients find at least temporary

relief from IC symptoms by drinking lots of barley grass juice which

is quite cooling including to the bladder. And IC also tends to be

quite sensitive to stress levels so any progress there should help

also. Good luck with your recovery - Matt Bauer

> -

> heylaurag

> Chinese Medicine

> Wednesday, May 26, 2004 5:35 AM

> Slept with Ren 4 stabbing me in my stomach....

>

>

> Hi all,

>

> I have a rather unusual problem I am hoping to get some advice

on. I

> am an acupuncturist, and I used to get great results using Ren 4

to

> help me sleep. But then one night I fell asleep so deeply that I

> forgot to take the point out, thereby enabling me to spend the

night

> laying on my stomach grinding it into my belly. Do Not Try This

At

> Home! Every since then my old interstitial cystitis (considered

an

> autoimmune disease) has return, big and bad. To make it more

> complicated, I had recently had a cold-damp pathogen invade my

stomah

> and was still treating it, draining it through my poor stabbed

> bladder.

>

> So the problem seems to be a combination of the trauma indured

from

> sleeping on the needle plus the cold-damp pathogen drained from

my

> stomach to my bladder, which was in a traumatized state and

unable to

> process it. Thus the cold-damp remains. This causes frequent

> urination and every evening during the UB time on the Chinese

clock I

> get a thick white coat on the back of my tongue (and a nasty damp

> taste in my mouth....Yuck!). The worst part is that the type of

> herbs that normally help me sleep make the problem worse (qi and

> blood tonics help me sleep). You all may have read another

post of

> mine where I talk about trying some homeopathy to treat all this,

and

> it turning into a hypothyroid syndrome......welcome to my own

> personal hell! But don't worry too much about lil ole' me,

because

> I have many other things in my life that are good. But I must

admit,

> all this is really kinda getting to me. This a highly unusual

> situation, but if anyone has any advise I would be greatful for

many

> lifetimes to come!

>

> Laura

>

>

>

> Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear,

religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear.

>

> To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link

page, http://babel.altavista.com/

>

>

and

adjust accordingly.

>

> If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop

being delivered.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

Thanks for responding. It sounds like you have some approaches to

treatment that I would be very interested in learning more about---

both for myself and my patients.

 

I will do more intensive palpating of the channels, but I can tell

you right now that I have noticed some things about my Ren channel

for a long time. I have a pretty deep crease running horizontally

across my stomach at the level of Ren 14. I first noticed this when

I was in my early 20's (I'm in my mid-30's now), and it is unusual

enough that others have asked about it (eg: when I've worn a swim

suit). The area above it and below it seems tight and raised. Ren

12 definitely feels excess. Down in the area of the trauma I have

noticed that when I needle Ren 4 it has been sticky and difficult to

needle ever since the injury. Prior to that it was very easy to

needle.

 

I went into more details about myself in an response to Matt Bauer,

so if you're up to it please take a look.

 

I've often been able to find reflex points that are releasing when

I've had other pain issues, but since this is on the abdomen it seems

very different. Any ideas how I might find one?

 

Thanks for your help!

 

Laura

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Dr. Holmes

Keikobad " <acuheal@e...> wrote:

> Laura:

> > Thanks for responding. I have wondered whether Ren 1 might work

for

> > me, but haven't tried it yet. Were you thinking that it might

help

> > heal the trauma from sleeping on Ren 4, or that it might help me

> > sleep? The Ren channel is so different from other channels in

terms

> > of treating pain that I cannot figure out how to treat the trauma.

> > How does one treat stagnation on the Ren Channel? The one

treatment

> > that I've found that helps is: Ren 6, LI 4, Liv 3.

> >

> >

> It looks like one of two conditions:

> a. a stagnation from injury

> b. an asymmetry in the extraordinary channels, viz. ren-yin qiao

mai pair.

>

> Since it's an odd condition it is best to diagnose and treat after

one is

> certain. The

> fear here is to get rid of symptoms by mutating these into another

ogre

> which will

> surface in later life.

>

> a. a stagnation from injury:

> palpate whole ren pathway and look for -

> [ ] cold

> [ ] heat

> [ ] stagnation

> [ ] induration

> [ ] fibrosis

> [ ] emptiness, a caving in

> [ ] fullness, an elevated tissue level

> [ ] roughness

> [ ] undue smoothness

> [ ] softness

> [ ] hardness

> [ ] varicosity

> [ ] capillary invasion

> [ ] importantly, a veering off of the channel ipsilaterally

> [ ] etc

>

> Look for a before and after condition -

> [ ] full before injury location

> [ ] empty after injury location

>

> Do the same for the yin qiao pathway from foot to termination.

>

> b. an asymmetry in the extraordinary channels, viz. ren-yin qiao

mai pair

>

> If this has happened there may a new set of symptoms which are

beginning to

> surface

> and which need to be identified.

>

> Pre-treatment procedure:

>

> If you do find evidence to think of a or b, don't treat till you

have tried

> out

> releasing a reflex point with the treatment point, best by finger

pressure.

>

> If you follow this line and need input let me know.

>

> Dr. Holmes Keikobad

> MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

> www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

> NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

Hi Salvador!

 

I don't think I quite said " there is no problem if you stick a needle in

the wrong place " . If you *try* to hurt someone, you probably can. This is

not what Laura was doing, and not what I was suggesting to her.

 

That said, I never heard of anyone in our student clinic ever having

anything that could have been called an *incident*. I think they could have

done better, sometimes, but I know of no case where they did any harm.

 

At 05:59 PM 5/27/2004, you wrote:<snip>

 

since you know that there is no

>problem if you stick a needle in the wrong place. I suggest in the

>spirit of learning, that you send me your date of birth off line.

>Also fill in my online form as fully as possible.

>http://www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com/1form.htm

>

>I will then suggest some points for you to try over three session.

>For which I would hope you can find a buddy acupuncturist who can

>find the points to stick in you. You in turn will share with the

>group how you feel over the succeding 3-4 days after each session.

>

>The purpose of the points chosen will be to excarcebate what ever

>dysharmonies you presently have. But since one cannot go wrong with

>acupuncture you have nothing to fear...?

>

>salvador

>

>

>

>

>Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious,

>spam messages,flame another member or swear.

>

>To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link

>page, http://babel.altavista.com/

>

>

> and adjust

>accordingly.

>

>If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

>delivered.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Laura!

 

As long as we are " tinkering " , as Salvador puts it, unless you have a known

intolerance to these, get some cranberries and eat some of them, not to

overdo it, just a modest serving of cranberries now and then throughout the

day. They are out of season now so they will have to be frozen or dried.

Try to eat them without sugar, if you can. If you have to sweeten them, use

raw honey or some other natural (unheated) sugar. If at all possible, don't

get them pre-sweetened.

 

<http://www.cranberries.org/consumers/cframeset.html>

 

I think in your situation you want to urinate fairly frequently until this

clears up.

 

At 09:33 PM 5/27/2004, you wrote:

>Hi Salvador,

>

>With all due respect, I do get good results with my patients, and I

>do not feel like I am someone who has " little knowledge " of Chinese

>medicine.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich!

 

ROFL!

 

At 11:04 PM 5/27/2004, you wrote:<snip>

 

>Does this work with acupressure points? If so, I would gladly

>voluteer. My wife can do all of the work. Thanks,

>

>Rich

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Laura:

> I've often been able to find reflex points that are releasing when

> I've had other pain issues, but since this is on the abdomen it seems

> very different. Any ideas how I might find one?

>

>

Step 1. Palpate K 27. If tender, keep palpating hand on the spot lightly.

Step 2. With the other massage K 6.

Step 3. Palpate K 27 again to see if pain released.

Step 4. If released, place a 36 gauge .5 inch needle in K 6 at 45 degree.

Step 5. Turn angle towards tendon Achilles, or up with flow of K.

Step 6. At the best angle which releases K 27, rest the needle.

Step 7. Keep for 20 minutes, stimulating with small thrusts every 5 minutes.

Step 8. Remove needle and burn tiny thread moxa, 8 to 10, on point.

 

If K 6 were the release point and you have done this well, all pain should

be

gone, and the organs aligned to boot.

 

If K 6 is not the point, try K 7, K 9, SP 6, SP 9.

 

It is possible the final points could be a combination of 2 or more points.

Make certain to use only those which release reflex, not ones which give

pain relief.

 

Done well, this could take care of the problem decisively.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete,

 

> Hi Rich!

> ROFL!

> At 11:04 PM 5/27/2004, you wrote:<snip>

> >Does this work with acupressure points? If so, I would gladly

> >voluteer. My wife can do all of the work. Thanks,

> >

> >Rich

 

I am actually very serious about my offer because I am quite

interested in testing out various theories.

 

As I have metioned in some of my past messages, I believe that the

path to good health is by elimating physical, mentional, emotional,

spiritual obstructions. I think the primary difference in my

philosophy/approach vs. that of TCM, is that I look at the body as

being able to come to a natural balance once obstructions have been

removed - i.e. there is no need to tonify or sedate areas, but in fact

this approach may cause additional problems because tonification while

there are obstructions can increase or decrease " qi flow " in an

unhealthy manner if it is performed in areas around where obstructions

still exist - that is on either side of the obstruction or along the

channels. In my experiences, problems, for example, in the Ren Channel

are often (if not always) caused by obstructions (inheritary or

otherwise) in the Du Channel - spinal issues (the spine being the seat

of Will), since they are really just one large channel.

 

In this case, I believe that my qi flow is good at this time in my

life. It would be interesting to see if any kind of needling would

create issues. My theory being that any kind of excess tonification or

sedation in my case would naturally flow " out of my body " as my body

maintains itself in a natural balance.

 

Maybe Salvadore will continue with this experiement. It would be

interesting.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Hi again Pete,

 

Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen

<petet@a...> wrote:

> Hi Salvador!

> I don't think I quite said " there is no problem if you stick a

needle > in

> the wrong place " . If you *try* to hurt someone, you probably can.

 

My idea is that there are possibilities to cause aggravation of

conditions using needles if there is enough " qi intent " - that is the

student is able to introduce or withdraw a good amount of qi using

Intent. In my experiences, students, in almost all cases, have no

knowledge of this kind of capability much less the actual skill. I

imagine overtime, some may develop this skill through their own

practice after they graduate. Unfortunately, from what I have read,

most of TCM has de-emphasized this aspect of treatment, substituting

more " physical means " (e.g. turning in clockwise or counterclockwise)

to substitute of intent, which I do not believe is as effective.

 

I believe that herbs, because they have their own inherent energetic

patterns (in some cases very powerful) are more likely to cause

aggravations. Some herb combinations may be powerful enough to " break

through " the dams of obstructions, but if they don't they could cause

aggravations as an overflowing dam might cause.

 

Anyway, this would be my hypothesis based upon my working theory of

health.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

Thank you so much for this information. Unfortunately I do not know

what you mean when you say,

 

" Make certain to use only those which release reflex, not ones which

give

> pain relief. "

 

I had thought that you meant that the point would provide pain

relief, and probably it would be a tender point. Can you clarify?

This sounds like a very interesting way of treating, and I am curious

to learn how to use this with myself and my patients. One challenge

is that I only have pain when I need to urinate, so should I wait to

test this until nature calls (believe me, it won't be long!)?

 

It doesn't sound like this is relevant to how you practice, but there

clearly seems to be dampness and coldness related to this problem.

Also, I forgot to tell everyone that I took a homeopathic remedy that

seemed to tonify my blood really well shortly after this happened.

If I had created blood stagnation from the trauma, I think that the

remedy made that worse (but it sure did help me sleep well!)

 

Thanks!

 

Laura

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Dr. Holmes

Keikobad " <acuheal@e...> wrote:

> Laura:

> > I've often been able to find reflex points that are releasing when

> > I've had other pain issues, but since this is on the abdomen it

seems

> > very different. Any ideas how I might find one?

> >

> >

> Step 1. Palpate K 27. If tender, keep palpating hand on the spot

lightly.

> Step 2. With the other massage K 6.

> Step 3. Palpate K 27 again to see if pain released.

> Step 4. If released, place a 36 gauge .5 inch needle in K 6 at 45

degree.

> Step 5. Turn angle towards tendon Achilles, or up with flow of K.

> Step 6. At the best angle which releases K 27, rest the needle.

> Step 7. Keep for 20 minutes, stimulating with small thrusts every 5

minutes.

> Step 8. Remove needle and burn tiny thread moxa, 8 to 10, on point.

>

> If K 6 were the release point and you have done this well, all pain

should

> be

> gone, and the organs aligned to boot.

>

> If K 6 is not the point, try K 7, K 9, SP 6, SP 9.

>

> It is possible the final points could be a combination of 2 or more

points.

> Make certain to use only those which release reflex, not ones which

give

> pain relief.

>

> Done well, this could take care of the problem decisively.

>

> Dr. Holmes Keikobad

> MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

> www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

> NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete,

 

Thanks for that advice. Historically my IC has been worse when I

have drank cranberry juice (which I know is different from most

people), but maybe this situation is different. I do know that unlike

most people with IC, mine has always been from coldness. I have

always done better with heating treatments, so maybe that is related

to why cranberries have made me worse. There is definitely dampness

and cold now. I especially appreciate the advice to consider it a

good thing to induce frequent urination until this situation clears

up. I really, really needed that reminder. See, I have now and then

experimented with tonifying my kidneys with a point like K 3 or even

Lu 7/K 6 and sure enough: I stop urinating frequently but I get a

very thick coating on the back of my tongue. So I think that I need

to remember that when I am ready it will be pretty easy to stop the

frequent urination by tonification, but that I am not ready yet. I

need to continue to drain the pathological dampness first. Or

perhaps I need to clear the stagnation which is getting in the way of

my bladder processing fluids...or both. The tough part is that I

have enough yin/blood deficiency that it is hard to tolerate all

these draining treatments. My liver is especially unhappy about the

situation...eyes are dry, mood is a little irritable, and sleep is

not good. But, hey, I sure have learned a lot from this process!

Lucky me, I get to be tortured so that I can become a better

practitioner! It seems like that is a common thread in the life of a

healer, but maybe that's just me....

 

Thanks again for your insights!

 

Laura

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen

<petet@a...> wrote:

> Hi Laura!

>

> As long as we are " tinkering " , as Salvador puts it, unless you have

a known

> intolerance to these, get some cranberries and eat some of them,

not to

> overdo it, just a modest serving of cranberries now and then

throughout the

> day. They are out of season now so they will have to be frozen or

dried.

> Try to eat them without sugar, if you can. If you have to sweeten

them, use

> raw honey or some other natural (unheated) sugar. If at all

possible, don't

> get them pre-sweetened.

>

> <http://www.cranberries.org/consumers/cframeset.html>

>

> I think in your situation you want to urinate fairly frequently

until this

> clears up.

>

> At 09:33 PM 5/27/2004, you wrote:

> >Hi Salvador,

> >

> >With all due respect, I do get good results with my patients, and I

> >do not feel like I am someone who has " little knowledge " of Chinese

> >medicine.

>

> Regards,

>

> Pete

[Guest guest]

Hmmm....I don't know what ROFL means.....???

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen

<petet@a...> wrote:

> Hi Rich!

>

> ROFL!

>

> At 11:04 PM 5/27/2004, you wrote:<snip>

>

> >Does this work with acupressure points? If so, I would gladly

> >voluteer. My wife can do all of the work. Thanks,

> >

> >Rich

>

> Regards,

>

> Pete

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich,

 

I think that is a very intersting way of looking at things. It also

gives me all the more reason to think that I should take Matt Bauer's

advice and treat the Du meridian to treat my problem.

 

Laura

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Rich "

<rfinkelstein@a...> wrote:

> Hi Pete,

>

> > Hi Rich!

> > ROFL!

> > At 11:04 PM 5/27/2004, you wrote:<snip>

> > >Does this work with acupressure points? If so, I would gladly

> > >voluteer. My wife can do all of the work. Thanks,

> > >

> > >Rich

>

> I am actually very serious about my offer because I am quite

> interested in testing out various theories.

>

> As I have metioned in some of my past messages, I believe that the

> path to good health is by elimating physical, mentional, emotional,

> spiritual obstructions. I think the primary difference in my

> philosophy/approach vs. that of TCM, is that I look at the body as

> being able to come to a natural balance once obstructions have been

> removed - i.e. there is no need to tonify or sedate areas, but in

fact

> this approach may cause additional problems because tonification

while

> there are obstructions can increase or decrease " qi flow " in an

> unhealthy manner if it is performed in areas around where

obstructions

> still exist - that is on either side of the obstruction or along the

> channels. In my experiences, problems, for example, in the Ren

Channel

> are often (if not always) caused by obstructions (inheritary or

> otherwise) in the Du Channel - spinal issues (the spine being the

seat

> of Will), since they are really just one large channel.

>

> In this case, I believe that my qi flow is good at this time in my

> life. It would be interesting to see if any kind of needling would

> create issues. My theory being that any kind of excess tonification

or

> sedation in my case would naturally flow " out of my body " as my body

> maintains itself in a natural balance.

>

> Maybe Salvadore will continue with this experiement. It would be

> interesting.

>

> Regards,

> Rich

[Guest guest]

Laura:

> " Make certain to use only those which release reflex, not ones which

> give pain relief. "

>

>

The idea is to release a reflex stagnation in one body sector and leave the

pain

alone.

 

For instance you experience pain in the general region of Dantian. If a

point

releases that pain, you may have symptomatic relief without the actual

reflex

being released. In which case the tightness will simply shift somewhere else

and may even recede to organ level, with the Devil to pay.

 

The reflex one will look for is say at K 27, the last point on the K

channel.

It would register some imbalance from the focus in BL which is at the other

end of the K channel in the torso.

 

Also it carries over into UB at 7.01 PM every evening In the region it

transfers

the physical qi to P across the breast, to surface at P 1.

 

K 27 then becomes a neat point to register any kind of flux which originates

at

the lowest sector of Ren at Ren 2 to 4.

 

In this case, releasing pressure pain at K 27, if it is there, will amount

to setting

right major hemo- and hydrodynamics, as well as the messed up qi gradient,

at Ren 4 and adjacent areas.

 

If you do this well, the release of pain at bladder will be healed without

any direct effort.

 

Thus, it is best to release the reflex, and nurture the pain.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

Hi Laura,

 

Nice to say hello to you. :-)

 

From what I have observed, the Du meridian almost always has

obstructions which manifest themselves physically and emotionally, in

these kind of cases. There is also usually peripheral obstructions

along the other channels - e.g GB.

 

The way my doctor works is he uses qigong to clear the " cold qi "

(stagnated qi) as well as rather vigorous tuina manipulation to open

up the spine/du channels - physical and energetic. He will also use

qigong to clear the dantien regions which run along the Ren channel.

If necessary he will manipulate the lower dantien region, but usually

qigong is a better way to move the energy without causing too much

distruption at one time. It usually takes several visits too clear

depending upon the obstructions in the Du/Spine channels - which are

often quite " Stuck " . This is the Will of the body, and Will usually

becomes quite stagnant as people grow older. I should know! :-)

 

If you know of someone who knows tuina work on the back, have a nice

massage! :-) Don't forget the shoulders and scapula area! And of

course the whole BL and GB channels especially the ever helpful GB-30.

If you are in the Chicago area, I will give you one on me. :-) My wife

Julie is also very good. :-)

 

I hope this helps a bit and you feel real bettter real soon. OFten, it

just takes for the Mind to just relax, observe, and figure it all out. :-)

 

Take care,

Richy

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag "

<heylaurag@h...> wrote:

> Hi Rich,

>

> I think that is a very intersting way of looking at things. It also

> gives me all the more reason to think that I should take Matt Bauer's

> advice and treat the Du meridian to treat my problem.

>

> Laura

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Rich "

> <rfinkelstein@a...> wrote:

> > Hi Pete,

> >

> > > Hi Rich!

> > > ROFL!

> > > At 11:04 PM 5/27/2004, you wrote:<snip>

> > > >Does this work with acupressure points? If so, I would gladly

> > > >voluteer. My wife can do all of the work. Thanks,

> > > >

> > > >Rich

> >

> > I am actually very serious about my offer because I am quite

> > interested in testing out various theories.

> >

> > As I have metioned in some of my past messages, I believe that the

> > path to good health is by elimating physical, mentional, emotional,

> > spiritual obstructions. I think the primary difference in my

> > philosophy/approach vs. that of TCM, is that I look at the body as

> > being able to come to a natural balance once obstructions have been

> > removed - i.e. there is no need to tonify or sedate areas, but in

> fact

> > this approach may cause additional problems because tonification

> while

> > there are obstructions can increase or decrease " qi flow " in an

> > unhealthy manner if it is performed in areas around where

> obstructions

> > still exist - that is on either side of the obstruction or along the

> > channels. In my experiences, problems, for example, in the Ren

> Channel

> > are often (if not always) caused by obstructions (inheritary or

> > otherwise) in the Du Channel - spinal issues (the spine being the

> seat

> > of Will), since they are really just one large channel.

> >

> > In this case, I believe that my qi flow is good at this time in my

> > life. It would be interesting to see if any kind of needling would

> > create issues. My theory being that any kind of excess tonification

> or

> > sedation in my case would naturally flow " out of my body " as my body

> > maintains itself in a natural balance.

> >

> > Maybe Salvadore will continue with this experiement. It would be

> > interesting.

> >

> > Regards,

> > Rich