Master Tung's AP Methods - Dx and Tx protocols

[Guest guest]

Hi All, & Hi Robert,

 

Robert wrote:

> Attillo, AP traditionally is not reliant on the tongue and pulse. I

> demonstrated at a lecture in Finland 3 weeks ago on Tung's AP and

> treated 20 people in about 30 minutes, with each person telling me

> where/what their problem was and I inserted 1-4 needles depending

> on the ailment. Never once did I stop for a tongue or pulse

> diagnosis, as i did not need to write a prescription.

 

Robert, most interesting comment on tongue & pulse. Many on the

AP Lists use tongue & pulse in Dx, and some ALSO use pulse to

verify that the needling of their initial set of points has changed the

pulse towards the normal direction..

 

> I ... treated 20 people in about 30 minutes, with each person

> telling me where/what their problem was and I inserted 1-4 needles

> depending on the ailment... All 20 of the patients were amazed and

> had great results. Master Tung never took the pulse, he may have

> gazed at a patient's palm, but that was about it. Robert Chu,

> L.Ac., QME

 

Can you explain further how YOU select the points? Do you make

a Meridian Dx, a Syndrome Dx, What?

 

Could you give a few examples?

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "

[Guest guest]

> > I ... treated 20 people in about 30 minutes, with each person

> > telling me where/what their problem was and I inserted 1-4 needles

> > depending on the ailment... All 20 of the patients were amazed and

> > had great results. Master Tung never took the pulse, he may have

> > gazed at a patient's palm, but that was about it. Robert Chu,

> > L.Ac., QME

>

> Can you explain further how YOU select the points? Do you make

> a Meridian Dx, a Syndrome Dx, What?

>

> Could you give a few examples?

>

> Best regards,

>

 

Yes, and if it is that miraculous, and doesn't need pattern differentiation,

can you tell us, quickly, what points to use for:

 

Pregnancy morning sickness

Eczema

Psoriasis

Migraine

 

My current four challenging conditions.

 

Thank you.

 

 

Julie Chambers

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil,

 

>Robert wrote:

> > Attillo, AP traditionally is not reliant on the tongue and pulse. I

> > demonstrated at a lecture in Finland 3 weeks ago on Tung's AP and

> > treated 20 people in about 30 minutes, with each person telling me

> > where/what their problem was and I inserted 1-4 needles depending

> > on the ailment. Never once did I stop for a tongue or pulse

> > diagnosis, as i did not need to write a prescription.

>

>Robert, most interesting comment on tongue & pulse. Many on the

>AP Lists use tongue & pulse in Dx, and some ALSO use pulse to

>verify that the needling of their initial set of points has changed the

>pulse towards the normal direction..

 

This usually means they are studied in TCM which emphasizes the tongue and

pulse...

>

> > I ... treated 20 people in about 30 minutes, with each person

> > telling me where/what their problem was and I inserted 1-4 needles

> > depending on the ailment... All 20 of the patients were amazed and

> > had great results. Master Tung never took the pulse, he may have

> > gazed at a patient's palm, but that was about it. Robert Chu,

> > L.Ac., QME

>

>Can you explain further how YOU select the points? Do you make

>a Meridian Dx, a Syndrome Dx, What?

 

Yes, I make a meridian diagnosis and symptom diagnosis. For example, a

person with Asthma has shortness of breath, dyspnea, phlegm, coughing - it

is a Lung chnnel problem, then I simply treat the Lung channel.

 

If a persona has a problem with loose stools, frequent BM, gas, abdominal

bloating, I consider this a LI problem, then I simply treat the LI channel.

 

All of this TCM stuff of Damp heat in the LI, phlegm heat in the Lung

represents the herbalization of Acupuncture. Acupuncture is based on the

channnels, whether the s/s are physical, mental, emotional - you simply

treat the channels involved. This is real acupuncture, not herbalized

acupuncture.

 

I hope my point echoes the truth...

 

>Could you give a few examples?

 

Yup - see above...

 

>Best regards,

>

>Email: <

>

>WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

>Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

>

>HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

>Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

>WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

>

>Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man

>doing it "

 

Amen!

 

Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac., QME

chusauli

 

See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Robert and Phil,

 

>

> All of this TCM stuff of Damp heat in the LI, phlegm heat in the Lung

> represents the herbalization of Acupuncture. Acupuncture is based

on > the channnels, whether the s/s are physical, mental, emotional

- you > simply treat the channels involved. This is real

acupuncture, not >herbalized acupuncture.

 

I seem to recall reading similar sentiments in Mark Seem book,

" Acupuncture Imagery " . I certainly admire the effort to simplify the

theory and approach. Based upon my experiences, I would agree that

Acupuncture should be based upon the flow of the channels (at all

levels) and not the repertorization that seems to be associated with

herbal approaches - and homeopathy for that matter.

 

As for myself, I am learning the approach of my doctor who not only

treats the channel in question (e.g. a pain in the Tendino-Muscular

Taijin Pathway), but also all channels that may feed or be fed by

these channels. This is because an obstruction in one of the channels

may have also created obstructions in ancilliary channels over the

course of time. The fundamental theory behind this approach is that:

 

" Qi naturally flows in the body and when it is flowing smoothly and

without obstruction it will naturally provide the appropriate

nutrients (energy) to keep the body active and healthy. "

 

The fundamental issues I have with herbs as a primary source for

treatment, as opposed to a supportive role, are these:

 

1) Herb repertorization seems to be very complex and without a single

unifying theory - at least none that I can make out at this time.

There seem to be " rules " and " goals " , (e.g. tonify that which is

deficient, sedate that which is excess), but no underlying theory. I

am familiar with the concept of " balancing the body " , but this

objective seems to be fraught with problems. However, I am always open

to exploring this further.

 

2) The actual results of herb administration, for the most part, is

happening outside of the doctors direct observation - i.e. during the

week or so that follows the visit to the doctor's office. This

" disconnection " in communication seems to me to be less than optimal

when compared the direct and immediate feedback that is usually

accompanied with treatments such as tuina, acupuncture, cupping, gua

sha, etc.

 

These are my views at this time, but my views have changed for 15

years and they are bound to change again. :-)

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Sure Julie,

 

 

>Pregnancy morning sickness - use Pc6

>Eczema - use Lu5, Lu 10 Psoriasis - use Si Ma Shang, Zhong, Xia, and St44,

>but you'd better supplement with herbs like Evergreen's Dermatrol PS or use

>some bloodletting on the Jing Well points of the affected channel

>Migraine - where is the migraine? Frontal, use st44, sides use GB43, Jue

>Yin use Liv 2, Occipital use UB 66

 

Piece of cake when you know real acupuncture!

 

Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME

chusauli

 

See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com

 

 

 

 

 

>JulieJ8 <Juliej8

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Master Tung's AP Methods - Dx and Tx protocols

>Tue, 25 May 2004 15:46:04 -0600

>

> > > I ... treated 20 people in about 30 minutes, with each person

> > > telling me where/what their problem was and I inserted 1-4 needles

> > > depending on the ailment... All 20 of the patients were amazed and

> > > had great results. Master Tung never took the pulse, he may have

> > > gazed at a patient's palm, but that was about it. Robert Chu,

> > > L.Ac., QME

> >

> > Can you explain further how YOU select the points? Do you make

> > a Meridian Dx, a Syndrome Dx, What?

> >

> > Could you give a few examples?

> >

> > Best regards,

> >

>

>Yes, and if it is that miraculous, and doesn't need pattern

>differentiation,

>can you tell us, quickly, what points to use for:

>

>Pregnancy morning sickness

>Eczema

>Psoriasis

>Migraine

>

>My current four challenging conditions.

>

>Thank you.

>

>

>Julie Chambers

>

>

>

>

>

>Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious,

>spam messages,flame another member or swear.

>

>

>http://babel.altavista.com/

>

>

> and adjust

>accordingly.

>

>If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

>delivered.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Robert,

 

Thank you. I did use Evergreen's Dermatrol on my psoriasis patient and he

has gradually improved over 8 weeks. Who knows if it is the herbs, the

acpuncture, or the change in weather? He believes it is the herbs, because

this is the most improvement he has had in years since stopping Cyclosporin.

 

Thanks again.

 

Julie

 

 

-

" Robert Chu " <chusauli

<Chinese Medicine >

Wednesday, May 26, 2004 4:51 PM

Re: Master Tung's AP Methods - Dx and Tx protocols

 

 

> Sure Julie,

>

>

> >Pregnancy morning sickness - use Pc6

> >Eczema - use Lu5, Lu 10 Psoriasis - use Si Ma Shang, Zhong, Xia, and

St44,

> >but you'd better supplement with herbs like Evergreen's Dermatrol PS or

use

> >some bloodletting on the Jing Well points of the affected channel

> >Migraine - where is the migraine? Frontal, use st44, sides use GB43, Jue

> >Yin use Liv 2, Occipital use UB 66

>

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Robert Chu "

<chusauli@m...> wrote:

 

> All of this TCM stuff of Damp heat in the LI, phlegm heat in the

Lung

> represents the herbalization of Acupuncture. Acupuncture is based

on the

> channnels, whether the s/s are physical, mental, emotional - you

simply

> treat the channels involved. This is real acupuncture, not

herbalized

> acupuncture.

>> See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com

 

Thank You Robert!

 

You have loosend a little thorn that was bugging me for ages. In my

practice because I feel the energy in the meridians I often sedate

or tonify points along the meridians which T.C.M. patterns of

differentiations have no theory to explain.

For example I may sedate LU-5 as a result of feeling the energy

stuck in the point, but the patient has no Phlegm or Heat in the

lungs at a physical level. Yet the patient Will physiologically as

well as mentally and emotionally improve.

 

 

salvador

http://www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Robert & All,

 

Robert Chu wrote:

> ... I make a meridian diagnosis and symptom diagnosis. For

> example, a person with Asthma has shortness of breath, dyspnea,

> phlegm, coughing - it is a Lung chnnel problem, then I simply treat

> the Lung channel.

 

Sure there is a LU problem there, but is the ROOT in:

LU itself, or

HT (Overacting on LU),

SP (not Feeding LU),

KI (KI Xu, with KI not Grasping LU), or

LV (attack by reverse KO)?

 

Surely the AP treatment would differ depending on the Root?

 

> If a person has a problem with loose stools, frequent BM, gas,

> abdominal bloating, I consider this a LI problem, then I simply

> treat the LI channel.

 

Could those S & Ss have their ROOT in SP Xu, SJM-SP-ST Cold,

etc? In that case, surely the Root treatment would be aimed at SP

or Middle Jiao?

 

> All of this TCM stuff of LI Damp Heat, LU Phlegm Heat [etc]

> represents the herbalization of AP. AP is based on the Channnels,

> whether the s/s are physical, mental, emotional - you simply treat

> the channels involved. This is real AP, not herbalized AP. I hope

> my point echoes the truth...

 

Robert, I have no doubt that it reflects the truth of those who believe

that real AP is not herbalized AP.

 

But I wonder how many colleagues trained in TCM WITHOUT

BEING TRAINED in Chinese Herbal Medicine agree with you. IMO,

there are schools of " herbless AP " that still hold to many of the

" herbal-type " diagnoses.

 

Comments anyone?

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Robert Chu "

<chusauli@m...> wrote:

> Sure Julie,

>

>

> >Pregnancy morning sickness - use Pc6

> >Eczema - use Lu5, Lu 10 Psoriasis - use Si Ma Shang, Zhong, Xia,

and St44,

> >but you'd better supplement with herbs like Evergreen's Dermatrol

PS or use

> >some bloodletting on the Jing Well points of the affected channel

> >Migraine - where is the migraine? Frontal, use st44, sides use

GB43, Jue

> >Yin use Liv 2, Occipital use UB 66

>

> Piece of cake when you know real acupuncture!

>

> Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME

> chusauli@m...

--------------------------------

 

 

 

Humm........Im not so sure you have all the angles covered Robert.

 

I have often encountered psoriasis with excess SP, ecxcema with

excess LIV and occasionally excess LI linked with Def. SP. I have

also made one pregnant woman even more sick by using P-6. I doubt

that the rules of engagement are that clear cut. If they are they

certainly don't work for me.

 

I have also repeatedly cleared many skin ailments without recourse

to Herbs. The Trick is to find out which Root meridians are involved.

Salvador

http://www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Salvador,

 

You wrote:

 

Humm........Im not so sure you have all the angles covered Robert.

>

>I have often encountered psoriasis with excess SP, ecxcema with

>excess LIV and occasionally excess LI linked with Def. SP. I have

>also made one pregnant woman even more sick by using P-6. I doubt

>that the rules of engagement are that clear cut. If they are they

>certainly don't work for me.

 

>I have also repeatedly cleared many skin ailments without recourse

>to Herbs. The Trick is to find out which Root meridians are involved.

 

>Salvador

>http://www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

 

 

Have I?

 

Regarding psoriasis with excess SP - since Si Ma Shang Zhong Xia are on the

St channel and that is related to the spleen, why bother with the spleen?

 

Regarding eczema with excess LIV and occasionally excess LI linked with

Def. SP - the Lung is the son of the Liver, related to the LI, and is the

same family name as the Sp - so why use 3 channels when I can simply use 1?

 

Regarding making one pregnant woman even more sick by using P-6, what is the

needle technique, how deep, how thick the gauge? And if need be, you can

add St36...also, this may just be one incident of a squeamish individual...

 

This is why I named my personal system Optimal Acupuncture. I got the

understanding from Master Tung's system, but then experimented in the clinic

and found more efficient shortcuts.

 

 

Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, PhD

chusauli

 

See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com

 

 

 

 

 

> " salvador_march " <salvador_march

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Master Tung's AP Methods - Dx and Tx protocols

>Thu, 27 May 2004 17:16:31 -0000

>

>Chinese Medicine , " Robert Chu "

><chusauli@m...> wrote:

> > Sure Julie,

> >

> >

> > >Pregnancy morning sickness - use Pc6

> > >Eczema - use Lu5, Lu 10 Psoriasis - use Si Ma Shang, Zhong, Xia,

>and St44,

> > >but you'd better supplement with herbs like Evergreen's Dermatrol

>PS or use

> > >some bloodletting on the Jing Well points of the affected channel

> > >Migraine - where is the migraine? Frontal, use st44, sides use

>GB43, Jue

> > >Yin use Liv 2, Occipital use UB 66

> >

> > Piece of cake when you know real acupuncture!

> >

> > Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME

> > chusauli@m...

>--------------------------------

>

>

>

>Humm........Im not so sure you have all the angles covered Robert.

>

>I have often encountered psoriasis with excess SP, ecxcema with

>excess LIV and occasionally excess LI linked with Def. SP. I have

>also made one pregnant woman even more sick by using P-6. I doubt

>that the rules of engagement are that clear cut. If they are they

>certainly don't work for me.

>

>I have also repeatedly cleared many skin ailments without recourse

>to Herbs. The Trick is to find out which Root meridians are involved.

>Salvador

>http://www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

>

>

>

>

>

>Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious,

>spam messages,flame another member or swear.

>

>

>http://babel.altavista.com/

>

>

> and adjust

>accordingly.

>

>If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

>delivered.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Robert Chu "

<chusauli@m...> wrote:

> Hi Salvador,

>

> Regarding psoriasis with excess SP - since Si Ma Shang Zhong Xia

are on the

> St channel and that is related to the spleen, why bother with the

spleen?

>

> Regarding eczema with excess LIV and occasionally excess LI

linked with

> Def. SP - the Lung is the son of the Liver, related to the LI, and

is the

> same family name as the Sp - so why use 3 channels when I can

simply use 1?

> Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, PhD

> chusauli@m...

>

> See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com

____

 

 

Hi Robert,

 

 

I had one patient a few years back who was covered in psoriasis

front and back. At that time I still hadn't properly formulated my

theories although I was as they say " on my way " .

 

I made the mistake of Tonifying her SP and in all fairness she

improved about 40% over 4 treatments. Suddenly she started to get

much worse and I was at a loss. I knew that she was completely Earth

Root. I changed tack and proceeded to tonify her ST and there was an

immediate improvent to about 60%. This continued for another 4

sessions or so and nothing else was changing.

 

I will add that she had for the previous year been to a herbalist

but the only improvement she'd had was a litle more regularity in

her bowels.

 

Anyhow, after more pondering ( I was a bit slow on the uptake at the

time)I realized that her SP was in excess. Upon my blending of Ton.

the ST and Sed. the SP the psoriasis within 2 tx was 95% gone. and

remained there. All other symptoms also went. She was left with a

hint of psoriasis on the knees that would flare up alittle when her

stress levels raised.

 

I am glad that your system works for you.

My experience is different. For me, each meridian is totally

separate and has to be accurately diagnosed for deficiency or

excess. As well as to its Root or branch in relation to the other

organs If I mix them I may get some (short term )benefit but I can

just as often excarcebate conditions.

 

I have a similar experience with treating symptoms by formula.There

are times when they have worked but many other times they haven't.

And more often that not When I have treated a symptom by

prescription something gets better and something else gets worse.

Rather reminds me of WM drugs.

 

With regard to using 3 channels when you could use just one I am

there with you. Perhaps one difference between us might be That I

need to be clear that it is a Root Channel. For example, one

patient might have excema because there is a LIV dysharmony

insulting the Lungs another may have Def Lu affecting the SP, KID

and LIV. For me the basis of treatment would be totally different

in each case.

 

Salvador

http://www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com