Where does Mainstream AP fit in Chinese Integrative Medicine?

[Guest guest]

wrote: All I see is uncertainty and the need for constant study, not

only of AP but of medical principles and life sciences research in general.

 

Hi Phil,

 

What you describe is what I call " practice " . It is fundamental to all arts:

fine arts as well as medical arts. It is also the nature of " soul " if you'll

forgive my reference. Take all of one's cultural heredity and knowledge and

then strive and yearn for the perfection of expression. As you do this you

slowly build the tools of your art ... and it's accommodation: the human soul.

 

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ok Phil Iam impressed I really am, on a number of counts 1st

thank you for taking what I have said to date seriously, and

secondly for devoting so much of your time to attempt to make sense

of my ramblings.

 

 

I have no idea what you mean by AP can you explain? is it

acupuncture practice?

 

 

so what is my system? Yes it does use astrology, and yes it does

work. At the end of the day what we beleive is not really that

relevant, it is what we can prove that matters.

 

And I have proved to my satisfaction and others that my astrology

does indeed work as a spot light that allows any one who understands

the process to focus on specific meridians.

 

Is it predicting the future? NO more than I can predict which way

the water will come down the mountain when it overflows. For we are

all aware that brooks and rivers are made from repetion of flow.

 

My dilema has been do I follow other people's theories which never

worked for me or do I take note and try to make sense of what works.

 

After many years of experimenting on myself, patients and family. I

have evolved theories based on the facts I have encountered. Any

theory is only as good as the results one gets, both when applied

correctly and esp when applied incorrectly.

 

I know more from the countless mistakes I have made over the years

than from when I have accidentally got things right.

 

What I have shared so far is part of what I know. There is a lot

more to my system than I have shared but that in no way invalidates

the info I have given to date.

 

I am a practical man with a fairly scientific approach I hate

getting esoteric but.. There are no books for me to refer you to I

am one vehicle through whom this knowledge is coming through. ( HI

waves to other half) All information is brought through at least 2

people ,if not more, after all, there has to be an element of

uncertanty in life, otherwise we would be automata without free

will

 

What I say is fairly simple and straightforward .From the moment we

are born the universe reflects our nature. This is a standard

concept embodied within Chinese knowledge, culture and wisdom. It is

the concept of relationships that no one and nothing exists in

isolation from anyone or anything else. The I Ching is a good

example of this. In a holographic universe any part can be

comprehended from any other part or collection of parts. This is the

basis of all forms of astrology.

 

My form of chinese astrology is very old and is widely used but

little understood. It reflects the nature of man in all 3 brains

(mental, emotional and physical) it shows us which parts we

struggle to integrate. and is directly correlated to the meridians.

 

I am the 1st to agree on my ignorance, there is so much I have yet

to learn. All information I have shared so far is based on my

observations to date, this may indeed change as I get larger samples

of patients over many more years. But for the present, I will hold

to my guns, because that is what I have experienced.

 

This is that for me A patient who is predisposed towards Def. say

in the SP at a root level will move according to the stresses in

his /her life from balance to Def.

 

Def or Excess for me are just useful concepts and no more. I prefer

the concept of myofacia distortion in either a clockwise or

aticlockwise direction within the lenght of the human anatomy

encompassing the internal organs and hormonal glands. I find this

concept much closer to my energetic experiences and reality.

 

There is a saying 'there is more than one way to skin a cat' and

acupuncture as a system is provind this old adge to hold true. Phil,

you mentioned a great many ways to treat people with acupuncture. I

have to assume there is truth in all those systems or they would not

be popular. Mine is just one more angle from which to look at the

valley of truth.

 

I do take exception to the present use of TCM though in so far as my

experience with patients shows me quite clealy that one has to be

extremely specific as to which meridians one sticks needles in as

well as in which direction.

 

Let me share one example with you. I have a patient who is EXcess LU

and DEf. LI. Initially she had a whole plethora of symptoms under

the heading chronic fatigue syndrome and sleepiness.

she was higly sensetive to treat initially even though she had a

large amount of DEf. LIV Blood symptoms she would feel a lot worse

if I tonifed her LIV BLood. I had to stay focused on Sed LU and

tonfying LI, gradually as she got better she would get more in

touch with her held in anger and grief and she would feel better

from the very occasional even needleing of LIV3 on her left foot

only.

 

any other point on the LIV would make her feel sick and nauseous.

Her Excess LU was controlling the LIV across the K'O Cycle No book

on TCM I have ever come across would have allowed me to make the

specific diagnosis or treatment that has made her better and allowed

her to have the energy to go through labour and to look after her

now 1 year old daughter.

 

Over the last couple of years I have received people who have been

to TCM, Herbalists and 5 element acupuncturists. My approach proved

much more eficacious. This is not a put down on the other modalities

as ultimately it is the healer iaded by the tools that makes the

difference not the other way around.

 

God..I am rambling now.. Ok My system uses astrology but is is much

more than that It has existential concepts that helps to make sense

of illness too and much more.

 

I am getting close to the point in which I am saying I can tell you

about an orange but that won't let you know what it tastes like.

 

Let me be totally arrogant and say That IMO there is as much to be

learn from spending some time with me as from going all the way to

China but then I would say that

 

Salvador

http://www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Salvador,

 

I find your approach very interesting. Thank you for sharing some of

your experiences with me.

 

I recognize that just as each patient is unique, so is each

practitioner. It appears that you have been able to tap into a certain

skill and have certain insights that have allowed you to achieve very

good results with your patients. My Qigong?Tuina doctor has also

developed a protocol that is very different and achieves excellent

results.

 

I would be interesting to hear if you have been able to pass on these

skills and insights to other. Sometimes, certain skills are very

unique and are difficult to pass to others.

 

Thank you again for taking the time to explain your approach.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Hi All, & Hi Salvador,

 

Salvador wrote:

> I have no idea what you mean by AP can you explain? is it

> acupuncture practice?

 

Apologies; by AP I mean acupuncture.

 

> ... my system ... does use astrology, and yes it does work.

 

I agree in principle that different practitioners, using very different

methods, can attain good to great results.

 

> ... what we believe is not really that relevant, it is what we can

> prove that matters.

 

If by " what we can prove " you mean " in my experience " , I agree

with you.

 

But, as scientists usually define porrf, your experience (or my

experience, or the experience of any group of practitioners) is NOT

PROOF. Science has no interest in personal experience, unless it

is documented thoroughly and relates to the experience of many

others. Also, the data must be be compared with positive and/or

negative controls, preferably randomised, in well planned,

structured contemporaneous trial.

 

> I have proved to my satisfaction and others that my astrology does

> indeed work as a spotlight that allows anyone who understands the

> process to focus on specific meridians.

 

ALL good therapists use their own versions of different methods on

the basis of " I have proved to my own satisfaction " . What this

usually means is " I believe in my method because it has worked for

me in the past " . That is great but it is not proof, as I mentioned

above.

 

Some therapists have " the gift " . What they do may seem irrational

and unscientific. However, if it works in >70% of cases, with no or

minimal side effects, my hat goes off to them.

 

> Is it predicting the future? NO more than I can predict which way

> the water will come down the mountain when it overflows. For we are

> all aware that brooks and rivers are made from repetion of flow. My

> dilemma has been do I follow other people's theories which never

> worked for me or do I take note and try to make sense of what

> works. After many years of experimenting on myself, patients and

> family. I have evolved theories based on the facts I have

> encountered. Any theory is only as good as the results one gets,

> both when applied correctly and esp when applied incorrectly.

 

Yes, learning from mistakes is a powerful way to learn. All that I

was saying in my last mail was that the form of AP that I

understand you to use is NOT mainstream AP and has no

scientific publications to support it. That does not mean that your

system may not work for you!

 

> What I have shared so far is part of what I know. There is a lot

> more to my system than I have shared but that in no way

> invalidates the info I have given to date. I am a practical man

> with a fairly scientific approach I hate getting esoteric but..

> There are no books for me to refer you to I am one vehicle through

> whom this knowledge is coming through. ( HI waves to other half)

> All information is brought through at least 2 people ,if not more,

> after all, there has to be an element of uncertanty in life,

> otherwise we would be automata without free will

 

Agreed. Each must find his/her own way through the morass of

theories.

 

I prefer to base my diagnostic and therapeutic decisions on more

conventionally based methods. I include WM (western medical)

and TCM principles in my exam, and decision making. I also am

aware of some useful ideas from other systems - geopathic forces,

" evil eye " (malevolent psychic / spiritual attack, EMFs

(electromagnetic fields), etc, etc. Also, I use dowsing / divining

methods when I am stuck. Admittedly, like you, I cannot PROVE

the scientific validity of many of those ideas, but (also like you), I

KNOW that they work for me sometimes.

 

I would guess that few on this list have had first-hand experience of

the reality of Spirit independent of Body. Many would probably not

even believe in that possibility. I KNOW [from my experience] that

Spirit exists but cannot prove it to anyone else.

 

> What I say is fairly straightforward: The universe reflects our

> nature from the moment [of our birth]. This is a standard concept

> embodied within Chinese knowledge, culture and wisdom. It is the

> concept of relationships that no one and nothing exists in

> isolation from anyone or anything else. The I Ching is a good

> example of this. In a holographic universe, any part can be

> comprehended from any other part or collection of parts. This is

> the basis of all forms of astrology.

 

The concept of the macrocosm-microcosm and hologram is widely

held. I accept that there may be SOME validity in astrological

ideas. There even may be certain traits in people born in a certain

date that are statistically more (or less) common that the same

traits in people born on different dates. BUT, IMO, it is far too

simple (even dogmatic) to say that the moment of one's birth

correlates in a MAJOR way with ones predisposition to specific

meridian weaknesses of excesses. I have seen no evidence for

that, and have not seen it stated in any translations of classicl

Chinese medical texts.

 

> My form of chinese astrology is very old and is widely used but

> little understood. It reflects the nature of man in all 3 brains

> (mental, emotional and physical) it shows us which parts we

> struggle to integrate. and is directly correlated to the

> meridians.

 

Can you cite the names of any Chinese books that link astrology

to specific Meridian imbalances?

 

> I am the 1st to agree on my ignorance, there is so much I have yet

> to learn.

 

Welcome to the Club! I realised that more than 40 years ago; that

is partly why I decided to study other systems, such as TCM,

dowsing, homeopathy, etc. I am still struggling to learn.

 

> All information I have shared so far is based on my observations.

> This may indeed change as I get larger samples of patients over

> many more years. But for the present, I will hold to my guns,

> because that is what I have experienced.

 

Each person must " hold to their guns " , i.e. act to their best ability

on their previous training, their own experiences, and according to

their degree of trust of other colleagues. IMO, it is a great mistake

to become too influenced by one Guru. Wise professionals have no

Guru; they study and listen carefully to many ideas, try the ones

that resonate with their nature, and use only what they find works

for them.

 

> This is that for me A patient who is predisposed towards, say, SP

> Xu at a root level will move according to the stresses in his /her

> life from balance to Xu. Xu or Shi for me are just useful concepts

> and no more. I prefer the concept of myofacial distortion in

> either a clockwise or aticlockwise direction within the length of

> the human anatomy encompassing the internal organs and hormonal

> glands. I find this concept much closer to my energetic

> experiences and reality.

 

I have no problem with personal ideas and ways of working, if they

get good results. But " what works " for YOU (or me) may not work

for others.

 

Just because my methods " work for me " , I SHOULD not suggest

to other professionals to use them. This is especially true if my

methods are far away from mainstream thinking in my modalities of

working. What I CAN say is: " Here is the way I work; here is my

thinking; consider it, if you wish, and the best of luck to you if you

decide to try it! "

 

> ... " There is more than one way to skin a cat " . AP as a system is

> provind this old adge to hold true. Phil, you mentioned a great

> many ways to treat people with AP. I have to assume there is truth

> in all those systems or they would not be popular. Mine is just one

> more angle from which to look at the valley of truth.

 

Agreed. But your way is far away from mainstream AP. It ignores

what I believe are very important TCM ideas and experiences.

 

And I KNOW that it is not necessary to know (or use) classical

AP/TCM to get great results. Some " natural healers " (born with the

gift) may be poorly educated (even illiterate) people. I have met

many of these people in Ireland. Some of our ancient folk-cures

may sound like science-fiction, or superstitious nonsense, but I

have seen several cases where they worked.

 

Robert Chu wrote of the methods of a Master acupuncturist, Dr.

Tung. Using Tung's method, Robert wrote that he assessed,

diagnosed and treated 20 people in about 30 minutes (average =

1.5 minutes/person), using only 1-4 needles, and without using

Pulse or Tongue Dx. That is fantastic if the results are good [and

they may be excellent]. I wish that I could work so fast and so

effectively! But I am slow and not that confident.

 

On this list we also have people who get excellent results with

surrogate pulse Dx, homeopathy, Guasha, etc. Each finds the way

that is best for them.

 

> I do take exception to the present use of TCM in so far as my

> experience with patients shows me quite clealy that one has to be

> extremely specific as to which meridians one sticks needles in as

> well as in which direction.

 

Again, one person's experience may be quite different to that of

another. Classical AP texts stress different needling techniques for

Bu and Xie, different methods of balancing the same energetic

problem. Many texts STRESS the need to get Deqi [the Qi arrival].

However, little or no controlled research is published to confirm

ANY of these claims. What research is published on Deqi is quite

contradictory. More importantly, many AP methods that elicit NO

perceptible Deqi (Toyohari needleless AP, LLLT-AP, some forms of

massage, Qigong-AP, etc) can give very good results.

Conclusion?: Deqi is NOT as important as some TCM texts

suggest.

 

One may ask: " Are ANY of the TCM ideas (5-Phases, 6-Levels, 8-

Principles, etc) valid? " . IMO, many ARE valid (proven by personal

experience) in clinical practice, but few have been researched in

critical controlled trials. This is why " science " does not accept

them ... yet.

 

IMO, assuming basic intelligence, and good training, a critical

aspect of healing is the Yi/Intention of the healer. If Healer X

believes that he/she must dance in crow-feathers for 2 minutes

before the client arrives, THAT IS IMPORTANT for the success of

THAT therapist. Without the feather-dance ritual, the confidence of

the healer is less, and doubts about " being properly prepared "

creep in.

 

> I have a patient who is LU Shi and LI Xu. Initially she had many

> symptoms of chronic fatigue syndrome and sleepiness. She was

> highly sensitive to treat. Initially even though she had a many LV

> Xue Xu symptoms she would feel a lot worse if I tonifed her LV Xue.

> I had to stay focused to Reduce (Xie) LU and Reinforce (Bu) LI.

> Gradually as she got better she would get more in touch with her

> repressed anger and grief and she would feel better from the very

> occasional even needleing of LV03 on her left foot only. Any other

> LV point would make her feel sick and nauseous. Via the Ko Cycle,

> her LU Shi was controlling LV. No book on TCM I have ever come

> across would have allowed me to make the specific diagnosis or

> treatment that has made her better and allowed her to have the

> energy to go through labour and to look after her now 1 year old

> daughter.

 

I agree that a few books may not hold the answer to all questions

that arise in practice. However, TCM Pattern Differentiation is very

well developed. Using S & Ss (signs & symptoms), a therapist well

trained in TCM can often suspect Pattern(s) and its/their the root

problem. Further tests, by Pulse, Tongue, urine colour, pendulum

(dowsing), kinesiology (even in surrogates), etc can give the

confirmation that the therapist needs for Dx. A correct Dx suggests

the correct AP points, or the herbs needed.

 

Yes, some people are supersensitive responders, and may react

adversely to the usual points. One must adapt one's treatment in

line with the response of the client.

 

> Over the last couple of years I have received people who have been

> to TCM, Herbalists and 5 element acupuncturists. My approach

> proved much more efficacious. This is not a put down on the other

> modalities as ultimately it is the healer, aided by the tools that

> makes the difference not the other way around.

 

Agreed. The healer, and his/her Yi are important. Different healers,

using different methods can get great results; and different healers

using the same " textbook methods " can get different results.

 

> My system uses astrology but is is much more than that It has

> existential concepts that helps to make sense of illness too and

> much more.

 

I would hope that ALL healers aware of spirit try to make sense of

illness.

 

> I am getting close to the point in which I am saying I can tell

> you about an orange but that won't let you know what it tastes

> like. Let me be totally arrogant and say That IMO there is as much

> to be learn from spending some time with me as from going all the

> way to China but then I would say that Salvador

 

Having studied AP & TCM for more than 40 years, I am reluctant to

jettison its mainline ideas for a new system that has unsatisfactory

documentation. Maybe many other clinicians may prove you

correct in time, but proving a complete SYSTEM takes a long time,

and comparing its efficacy to existing systems takes even longer.

 

Salvador, I admire your openness, your willingness to share, and

your confidence in your methods. But it would take a lot of

convincing for me to put such confidence in astrology as a key

factor in diagnosing specific meridian imbalances. Doubly so, when

many of us can diagnose these and other imbalances with TCM

and/or other methods, such as dowsing (which I use occasionally).

 

Having said that, I admit that dowsing is as far off the wall as

astrology in the eyes of sceptical scientists.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil,

 

If I may, just a few brief comments which you and other listers may

(or may not :-)) find interesting:

>

> Also, the data must be be compared with positive and/or

> negative controls, preferably randomised, in well planned,

> structured contemporaneous trial.

 

From my perspective, this is not possible. Each person/physician

relationship is entirely and utterly unique. A simple " sentence " from

a trusted physician to a patient can make all of the difference.

 

One recent article in Newseek on backaches was particularly

interesting to me. In part, it read:

 

" In a well-known study, researchers set 98 healthy people thorugh an

MRI machine: two-thirds had abnormal discs even though none complained

of pain. In other research, experts compared a group of patients who

reported back pain with a control group that didn't. Close to

two-thirds of the pain patients who had cracks in their discs,

so-called high-intensity zones, or HIZs. But do did 24 percent of the

non-complainers.

 

" The real issue, " says Dr. Eugene Carragee, the study's lead author

and director of Stanford's Orthopaedic Spine Center, " is why do some

people have a mild backache and some have really crippling pain? " The

answer, Carragee and others believe, has as much to do with the mind

as it does with the body. In the HIZ study, the best predictor of pain

was not how bad the defect looked but the patient's psychological stress. "

 

With this said, how does " science " ever standarize psychological

stress - the Mind?

 

I believe that the best science is that science that suggests a Theory

that predicts results. There must be a Theory. The Uncertainty

Principle suggests that we can never we certain about anything that we

see, since the act of observing effects the event. How does one create

Certainty when it is not possible. The Mind is involved - and it is

always changing.

 

What Western Medicine has done, in my opinion for convenience sake, is

first deny the interrelationship between Mind and Body (a stupendous

feat I must add - how does the Mind move the body if they are not

connected?), and then went ahead and developed what is called

" double-blind studies " that essentially find very powerful

suppressents that, because of their weight, works in a certain away

across a population of people. I could, in a very similar way, put 100

people in pain under a ton of concrete and drop it on them, killing

everyone. I can then say that there pain was gone - unfortunately they

were not cured. :-)

 

 

>

> ALL good therapists use their own versions of different methods on

> the basis of " I have proved to my own satisfaction " . What this

> usually means is " I believe in my method because it has worked for

> me in the past " . That is great but it is not proof, as I mentioned

> above.

 

I agree, but I believe that the proof that you are seeking is

impossible This is the albatross of Western Medicine which seeks

definitivess in an indefinite world - i.e. Mind and Body are

constantly changing and are unique in each individual. Now if you say

that TCM has similar kinds of obstacles to overcome, I would agree as

long as TCM practitioners use static models for convenience sake -

i.e. to quicken the learning process.

>

> Some therapists have " the gift " . What they do may seem irrational

> and unscientific. However, if it works in >70% of cases, with no or

> minimal side effects, my hat goes off to them.

 

Irrationality to one is very rational to another. I can point to many,

many world events where there are many different points of view - even

within the scientific communities.

 

> I would guess that few on this list have had first-hand experience of

> the reality of Spirit independent of Body. Many would probably not

> even believe in that possibility. I KNOW [from my experience] that

> Spirit exists but cannot prove it to anyone else.

 

If you would care to relate more, I would be interested in your

experiences in this matter - since I am very open to understanding

these perspectives.

>

> The concept of the macrocosm-microcosm and hologram is widely

> held. I accept that there may be SOME validity in astrological

> ideas. There even may be certain traits in people born in a certain

> date that are statistically more (or less) common that the same

> traits in people born on different dates.

 

It is my understanding that date/time/location are necessary to

determine astrological significance. However, I have not heard of good

explanations for the divergence when it comes to twins. Any thoughts

from Salvadore on this subject would be of interest to me.

>

> Can you cite the names of any Chinese books that link astrology

> to specific Meridian imbalances?

 

I too would be interested in any texts on this subject, since I

believe there is probably a relationship, but for now it is not at all

apparent to me. On the other hand, at 50, I still have 70 more years

of life to find this relationship (I am a bit of an optimist :-) ).

 

> Salvador, I admire your openness, your willingness to share, and

> your confidence in your methods. But it would take a lot of

> convincing for me to put such confidence in astrology as a key

> factor in diagnosing specific meridian imbalances. Doubly so, when

> many of us can diagnose these and other imbalances with TCM

> and/or other methods, such as dowsing (which I use occasionally).

 

My Tuina/Qigong doctor never uses the classical methods. He uses

palpation to locate obstructions in qi and blood flow and qigong to

locate obstructions in energy flow. I believe his knowledge comes from

Tibetian medicine - since he is from Northern China, but I cannot say

for sure. I am learning his techniques, and I can tell it will take

time. :-)

>

> Having said that, I admit that dowsing is as far off the wall as

> astrology in the eyes of sceptical scientists.

 

And I am skeptical about some scientists. :-)

 

I hope you find my comments of some interest.

 

Regards,

Rich