Guest guest Posted May 19, 2004 Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 I'll second that. Chris In a message dated 5/19/2004 2:38:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, zrosenbe writes: I strongly agree. On May 19, 2004, at 10:11 AM, wrote: > I have noticed that many people who are proponents of integrating > conventional WM with TCM are strangely opposed to integrating western > naturopathic and holistic med with TCM. Most of the cutting edge ideas > in western med have ben long established in naturopathy, such as much > of the science on nutrition. We would do well to heed their words on > other matters, as well, and be careful about just falling in lockstep > with the medicos. I value western science, which western medicine has > largely ignored. Lets not confuse the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2004 Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 On May 19, 2004, at 8:31 AM, rw2 wrote: > The problem is that a single paradigm does not seem to work that well. I know Bob Flaw's stated position on this matter is that if people knew TCM better than they would not ned to switch paradigms, particularly if they had the ability to read chinese. I have said repeatedly that I see no evidence that chinese speaking docs are more successful than those who do not. Perhaps Bob is right that with perfect knowledge of TCM one does need anything else. However, I would wager anything that no one will ever design an experiment that proves pure unadulterated TCM at the highest level is more effective than a combination of integrative therapies. In fact, I would wager it would be easier to prove the latter is more effective. But I have a more fundamental question. All maps are just maps. Each map has its own value. I wouldn't use a topographical map to plan my driving route. So unless one is saying that the map of western physiology is worthless, I see no rational reason to not use it freely. Clearly the map is not worthless, as evidenced in numerous arenas. And clearly no map can be complete. the map is not the terrain. Chinese medicine sucks at reductionistic analysis and IMO, reductionism is part of holism. Holism cannot exclude the parts or it is not holistic. True holism puts the parts in the context of the whole. The fact that heavy metal toxicity results in patterns TCM can assess validates TCM. The fact that the TCM methodology has no way to explain or treat this problem is not surprising and means nothing. The problem just did not exist in ancient times, so there is no experience with it. I think the same thing is true with severe intestinal dysbiosis and leaky gut syndrome. Perhaps this analogy will be meaningful to some. If you sustain a shotgun blast to the stomach and you are rapidly hemorrhaging to death, TCM can explain the pathomechanisms of what happened and why you will die, but it cannot do a damn thing about it. Only a modern knowledge of the anatomy and physiology can provide the understanding necessary to save such a life. I have never understood why some reject that this may also be true for some chronic internal medicine conditions. BTW, if anyone replies that a TCM practitioner could just use yunnan bai yao or san qi in such a case, I say go right ahead. I have been in the field for 17 years and I know many of our colleagues use western medicine at the drop of a pin. So lets not be disingeuous here. Chinese Herbs FAX: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2004 Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 On May 19, 2004, at 8:31 AM, rw2 wrote: > > The heavy metals problem is aggravated by the fact that the TCM > pattern combinations that can result can be quite complex - not > necessarily, but often enough. I've noticed that for a very large > percentage of clients who have such complex patterns that almost every > single TCM aspect is present, heavy metal toxicity is very likely. For > example, a common one is: Deficiency of Yang, Yin, Blood and Qi, plus > Interior Dampness + Damp Heat + Blood Stasis. > And if there are significant CNS signs: mental disturbances, memory > problems, sleep disturbances, there is a very high probability of some > type of heavy metal problem. So with these people I do only diet > simplification and cleanup first, just to make sure there is not some > food or food additive responsible, then if symptoms still remain I > proceed with the protocol I describe in the article. > I have noticed that many people who are proponents of integrating conventional WM with TCM are strangely opposed to integrating western naturopathic and holistic med with TCM. Most of the cutting edge ideas in western med have ben long established in naturopathy, such as much of the science on nutrition. We would do well to heed their words on other matters, as well, and be careful about just falling in lockstep with the medicos. I value western science, which western medicine has largely ignored. Lets not confuse the two. Chinese Herbs FAX: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2004 Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 I strongly agree. On May 19, 2004, at 10:11 AM, wrote: > I have noticed that many people who are proponents of integrating > conventional WM with TCM are strangely opposed to integrating western > naturopathic and holistic med with TCM. Most of the cutting edge ideas > in western med have ben long established in naturopathy, such as much > of the science on nutrition. We would do well to heed their words on > other matters, as well, and be careful about just falling in lockstep > with the medicos. I value western science, which western medicine has > largely ignored. Lets not confuse the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 For me, the issue is trying to understand heavy metal contamination from a Chinese medical point of view. Until or unless we can do that, we have no real chance of being able to treat it within our system. For example, during the last 100 years, Chinese medicine has made some erroneous assumptions about hypertension, high cholesterol, and diabetes, making overly simplistic and unwarranted assumptions. Therefore, it is no wonder that Chinese medicine for hypertension, as a for instance, is not been extremely effective in all cases. Many patients with hypertension are simply being treated with the wrong Chinese medicinals based on these wrong assumptions. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 Many patients with hypertension are simply being treated with the wrong Chinese medicinals based on these wrong assumptions. >>>I could not agree more, and it also shows the limitations of simply looking at pattern diagnosis or parallel symptoms signs, of simply assuming that for example cholesterol equal this or that pathogenic mechanism (which was mostly seen as phlegm is modern TCM), and then assuming that treatment will then work. This is were we have a big challenge ahead of us. We need to rethink the simplicity of some of TCMs perspective as they have to do with pathology, function and etiology. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 At 2:49 PM -0600 5/18/04, rw2 wrote: >I've since seen a number of other clients who seem to be >Er-Xian-Tang types, and when it does not work well, very frequently >it has turned out that heavy-metal toxicity is a major factor. -- Roger, How do you establish that your patients have heavy metal contamination? Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 Hi Rory, The best description of the various heavy metal toxins and methods of detoxification is presented in a wonderful little book entitled " Mechanisms of detoxication and procedures for detoxification " by Jon pangborn, Phd., who is out of Chicago. He used to run Doctor's data labs, and his phone number is (630) 587-4458. Many heavy metals have affinities to amino acid chelating agents, and there are specific agents which work for different heavy metals. for example, Mercury, which is found in amalgam fillings has a high affinity to the compound DMPS. To test for the presence of mercury, DMPS is injected intravenously, and then a 24 hour urine sample is tested for the presence and level of mercury. This same compound is able to pull (chelate) mercury from tissues of the body, but, the problem is, as it comes out, the toxic mercury can overwhelm and really make the patient feel sick, so levels need to be monitored VERY carefully. Yours, Yehuda On Thu, 20 May 2004 22:28:01 -0400 Rory Kerr <rorykerr writes: > At 2:49 PM -0600 5/18/04, rw2 wrote: > >I've since seen a number of other clients who seem to be > >Er-Xian-Tang types, and when it does not work well, very frequently > > >it has turned out that heavy-metal toxicity is a major factor. > -- > Roger, > > How do you establish that your patients have heavy metal > contamination? > > Rory > -- > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 Thanks Yehuda, I'll check out the reference. Rory >Hi Rory, > >The best description of the various heavy metal toxins and methods of >detoxification is presented in a wonderful little book entitled > " Mechanisms of detoxication and procedures for detoxification " by Jon >pangborn, Phd., who is out of Chicago. He used to run Doctor's data >labs, and his phone number is (630) 587-4458. >Many heavy metals have affinities to amino acid chelating agents, and >there are specific agents which work for different heavy metals. for >example, Mercury, which is found in amalgam fillings has a high affinity >to the compound DMPS. To test for the presence of mercury, DMPS is >injected intravenously, and then a 24 hour urine sample is tested for the >presence and level of mercury. This same compound is able to pull >(chelate) mercury from tissues of the body, but, the problem is, as it >comes out, the toxic mercury can overwhelm and really make the patient >feel sick, so levels need to be monitored VERY carefully. > >Yours, > >Yehuda -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2004 Report Share Posted May 22, 2004 In a message dated 5/22/2004 2:26:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rw2 writes: These two articles are included in the CD-ROM Course, but we could make them available separately - contact me if interested. How much are they? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2004 Report Share Posted May 22, 2004 Rory, Establishing heavy metal toxicity involves a lot of pattern recognition criteria, just like TCM, only the patterns need to be extended. In a way this problem is really not that much different than the problem of epidemics in 13th century China, when the theory of WenBing was developed to handle hemorrhagic fevers and other conditions that had rarely seen seen before, and for which current solutions were inadequate. There are many different possibilities, and each heavy metal has its own range of patterns that may manifest in an individual. I find homeopathic reference texts very useful, as the quirky symptom descriptions are much more detailed than any TCM-style description. These texts have dozens of pages on the symptom possibilities for various heavy metal compounds alone. For example, odd symptoms of arsenic toxicity may include " brain feels as if flapping around inside skull " ; one of my clients actually described this sensation. Now that I've gotten better at recognizing the patterns, I tend to rely on these pattern recognition schemes in preference to heavy metal assays of blood and urine, due to client unwillingless to spend a lot of money for quality lab tests. It has been documented by government audit that many labs that claim to test for such are extremely sloppy, and results from the identical test sample yield widely varying values. Great Smokies Lab is one that many naturopaths recommend, and that some of my students have used with satisfaction. The article I mentioned to you that we include in the course goes into general ways to recognize possible contamination, the most important being a thorough occupational and environmental history to see if the client may have been exposed - " circumstantial evidence " . It is really helpful to actively accumulate information on environmental issues in your local region. There are Internet sources that I can quickly reference that will give me information on the likely chemical pollution sources in any area of the country. The article I outline below lists generic industrial sources and consumer products by type of heavy metal they often contain. Here is an outline of what I cover in " Overcoming heavy metal (HM) toxicity " : Introduction Sources of heavy metal contamination Table 1. Sources of toxicity for various heavy metals Comments regarding specific sources of heavy metals Lead Mercury Cadmium Arsenic Uranium Misc. heavy metals Guidelines in minimizing exposure Effects of heavy metal toxicity General modes of toxicity Organs and tissues affected Table 2. Toxic effects of various heavy metals, by body systems and tissues Misc. notes on specific heavy metals Clinically relevant considerations in recognizing HM toxicity Stagnation of Blood, Qi, and Phlegm Complex combinations of multiple syndromes Assessment options Dietary and herbal methods for expelling heavy metals Table 3. Foods and herbs important in chelating and expelling heavy metals. The dental amalgam controversy Comparison with medical chelation options Table 4. Synthetic drugs commonly used for chelating and expelling heavy metals. The mind-body split, social consequences of heavy metal poisoning References Along with the heavy metal article above, I also include an article on over 30 common components of modern diets that I believe should be eliminated from everyone's diet, regardless of their TCM constitution, and why: microwaved food, Aspartame, hydrogenated oils, fluoridated water, etc. These two articles are included in the CD-ROM Course, but we could make them available separately - contact me if interested. ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org > Rory Kerr <rorykerr >Re: Heavy metal contamination > >At 2:49 PM -0600 5/18/04, rw2 wrote: >>I've since seen a number of other clients who seem to be >>Er-Xian-Tang types, and when it does not work well, very frequently >>it has turned out that heavy-metal toxicity is a major factor. >-- >Roger, > >How do you establish that your patients have heavy metal contamination? > >Rory ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2004 Report Share Posted May 22, 2004 Roger, On May 22, 2004, at 10:37 AM, rw2 wrote: > > Table 2. Toxic effects of various heavy metals, by body systems and > tissues > Stagnation of Blood, Qi, and Phlegm you wrote in your overcoming heavy metal toxicity article: " Tumors tend to form as a means for the body to isolate and wall off irritating and toxic materials that have not been excreted. People with Deficiency syndromes of various types are more likely to manifest tumor formation when excretion or discharge of metabolic toxins and poisons is impaired. " I was curious if there was evidence that tumors, benign or malignant, typically have higher concentrations of heavy metals than surrounding or remote tissues. Chinese Herbs FAX: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2004 Report Share Posted May 23, 2004 You ask an obvious and good question that I have asked for many years, the answer to which is not known explicitly, because all the experts I asked said that the research had not been done. It is known that tumors often form as a means of walling off and isolating irritants. According to Dietrich Klinghardt, MD, who is known as an authority on alternative methods for dealing with heavy-metal (HM) toxicity, that HMs tend to selectively deposit in connective tissue, bone, and scar tissue. The suspicion that I have had for many years is that once heavy metals build up to a certain concentration, creating free radical and oxidative stress inside the tumor, it may trigger malignancy. All of the preceding is based on several independent observations: (1) It **is** well known that heavy-metal toxicity is strongly correlated with cancer incidence. (2) The recognition that seaweeds (kun bu, hai zao) were often helpful in resolving tumors - " Phlegm " nodules, and also are very useful for chelating HMs, especially in the GI tract. (3) The observation by Dr. Gerson (of the Gerson cancer clinic) that his methods of vegetable juices, including a lot of crucifers, have been less effective recently than in the 1950's and 1960's. One possibility is the accumulation of heavy metals in most people's bodies, sometimes measuring orders of magnitude more than only 50 years ago. (4) Klinghardt's observations re the deposition sites of heavy metals in the body - connective tissue, bone, and scars and tumors, and metabolically less active tissues and the body may choose to store HMs in these locations to minimize total damage. (5) Some of the very same substances that chelate HMs have also been determined to be effective to varying degrees in certain types of cancer: many vegetables in the Cruciferae family (isothiocyanates), seaweeds, garlic and onions (sulforothanes). (6) When natural methods are used to resolve tumors, a lot of toxic reactions occur, in many cases symptoms occur that are consistent with HM toxicity. I once asked the director of a major international cancer research center who attended my course if there was any evidence that HMs concentration correlated with malignancy of tumors, and he was not aware of any research, but thought the idea was plausible. Here is what would have to be done, and it would be very simple to do: (1) Take a random sampling of people who had died of cancer. (2) In the autopsy, take tissue samples from non-cancerous healthy tissue, non-malignant tumors, and malignant tumors. (3) Assay the tissue samples for the common HMs, then do the statistics on the concentration of various heavy metals in each of the 3 tissue types in (2). ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org > < >Re: Re: Heavy metal contamination > >Roger, > >On May 22, 2004, at 10:37 AM, rw2 wrote: > >> >> Table 2. Toxic effects of various heavy metals, by body systems and >> tissues >> Stagnation of Blood, Qi, and Phlegm > >you wrote in your overcoming heavy metal toxicity article: " Tumors >tend to form as a means for the body to isolate and wall off irritating >and toxic materials that have not been excreted. People with Deficiency >syndromes of various types are more likely to manifest tumor formation >when excretion or discharge of metabolic toxins and poisons is >impaired. " I was curious if there was evidence that tumors, benign or >malignant, typically have higher concentrations of heavy metals than >surrounding or remote tissues. > > >Chinese Herbs > > >FAX: ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2004 Report Share Posted May 23, 2004 Hi All, In this note I refer only to chronic elemental toxicity; acute toxicity can manifest in quite different ways to chronic toxicity. The term “heavy metal” includes different elements, the more usual being: As, Cd, Hg, Pb and Zn. However, other trace-element toxicities include those of Al, Co, Cu, F, I, Mn, Se. Each element has its own storage depots, and its “preferred attack tissues”. For example, though F and I are in the halogen group with Cl and Br, toxic effects of F and I differ. F classically accumulates in (and attacks) tooth and bone, whereas I classically accumulates in the thyroid and attacks it and the upper respiratory mucosa. The body’s elemental complexing systems (a form of temporary detoxing) and storage depots, and its normal ways of excreting elements, differ widely. Therefore, there is no one panacea (single form of cure) that we can use to strip all these elements from their depots and ensure their safe excretion. Detox methods depend on which element, or combination of elements, one wants to strip away and eliminate. The one general principle that can be used in all cases of detox is to dring as nuch water as possible. Water must be excreted and it helps to dilute and excrete most toxins. Prevention of elemental toxicity depends of limiting exposure to excessive absorption of the elements. That is basis of strict QC to prevent the sale of elementally contaminated herbal ingredients. Also, it is one of the reasons why bulk extracts of single herbs or formulas are likely to be enforced by law in preference to the sale of crude medicinal herbs or DIY-grow-your-own herbs. Elemental contamination of herbs can arise from two main sources: (a) Wind / rain / smoke / chemical deposition, and (b) Root uptake or soil contamination. (a) Atmospheric deposition, or deliberate dusting/spraying with chemicals are the more important causes of excessive elemental levels in plants. This includes deliberate or accidental deposition of dangerous chemicals (for example use of Cu or As compounds in agricultural sprays), and fallout downwind of pollution-emitting stacks. Environmental monitoring of industrial smoke often analyses lichens on trees or rocks. Lichens act as pollutant accumulators; lichen analysis is very useful in monitoring or sentinel schemes. All coal contains S and metals, but low-grade industrial coal (“crow- coal”) is the worst. MAJOR sources of air pollution, including metal pollutants, SO2, PCBs and dioxins include temporary falls in furnace temperature at startup or recharging, and absence of state- of-the-art stack scrubbers to remove particulates and SO2 before they reach the atmosphere. Large waste incinerators, and furnaces that burn industrial-grade coal (such as heavy industry, steelworks, glassworks, and electricity generators) are the main culprits. Heaviest fallout from emitting stacks is usually within a 1-10 mile radius. However, documented heavy metal toxicity in animals has been traced to emitting stacks at distances up to 26 miles away. Also, I understand that sulphur dioxide emissions from the main coal-burning electricity generating plant in Ireland (Moneypoint, in the south west) has been traced as far away as Scandinavia. IMO, unless they are grown indoors under carefully controlled conditions, lichens & herbs grown in urban areas, or within 20 miles of industrial stacks, should be banned from medicinal use. Cd, Pb and Hg pollution of rivers, bays and coastal areas is common in heavily populated areas. It follows that harvesting of shells and other aquatic life as sources of medicinals in such polluted areas is potentially dangerous. Fish and crustaceans easily accumulate heavy metals, like Hg. (b) Soil as a source of pollution: Heavy metal/elemental contamination of plants can arise by: (1) uptake from soil via roots, and (2) by soil-contamination (rain-splash or dust-blow). Endemic Se toxicity occurs in several places, including USA. Soil Se levels are high to very high, and plants grown there reflect that. Certain plants, such as Astragalus and Equisetum can act as Se- accumulators. Levels of Se as high as 10,000 mg/kg DM (1% DM) have been recorded in some samples of Astragalus in USA. By contrast, root uptake of Pb (even on “reclaimed” mine-spoil, with Pb levels as high as 2%) is very low. Grass grown on such spoil can have quite normal levels of Pb. NEVERTHELESS, dozens of outbreaks of confirmed Pb toxicity in cattle have been confirmed on such soils; the reason was SOIL INGESTION. The grass was OK, but cattle can eat up to 15% of their total DM intake as soil, especially if stocking rates are high, or the siol is wet (spring and autumn). So, plants grown on soils heavily polluted with metals can have high metal levels either by root uptake, or by surface contamination with soil. Sorry for the rant, but research in mineral metabolism (deficiencies and toxicities) in farm animals has paid my rent for almost 40 years. From practical experience and decades of interaction with professionals, I know that many of them, including excellent vets and medics, have little or no knowledge of the complexity of mineral metabolism. Indeed, many of my professional friends do not even know the minimum recommended and maximum tolerable levels of the ESSENTIAL elements, let alone the tolerable levels of the NONESSENTIAL elements! I feel very strongly that it is unwise to rely on herbal medicine alone to handle heavy metal toxicity problems. IMO, it is a classical example of the need for Integrative Medicine – integration of WM/toxicology with the best of Chinese herbalism. IMO, if they are used WITH logically selected WM methods to strip and clear the toxic minerals, herbs may have a most useful role to play in minimizing the effects of sudden surges of blood levels, and sudden loads hitting the excretory paths, as the toxins are stripped and excreted. Finally, I am 100% behind ruthless QC, and banning for sale, of any medicinals that break internationally agreed guidelines on heavy metal levels. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2004 Report Share Posted May 23, 2004 Klinghardt's observations re the deposition sites of heavy metals in the body - connective tissue, bone, and scars and tumors, and metabolically less active tissues and the body may choose to store HMs in these locations to minimize total damage. >>>>Except that he bases his opinion on this based on muscle testing, and as much as i love Dietrich, and he is one of the smartest people i know, this does not cut for me. Kun bu and hai zao have mostly been used for goiters and its more due to iodine then anything else. It is however well known that some heavy metals are correlated with a higher risk of some cancers Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2004 Report Share Posted May 23, 2004 The heavy metal article and the dietary toxins article are available together as a single download from our website for $35. These are included with the complete CD-ROM, but I am making them available separately to CHA members due to interest. Just follow the general ordering instructions at: http://www.rmhiherbal.org/tchs-cd/index.html#order mention you are a CHA member and specify that you are ordering " TCHS Supplement 200402 " for $35. There is no shipping charge, as it is only available by download from a webpage. You'll receive a username and password to access. ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org > Sat, 22 May 2004 14:53:42 EDT > Musiclear >Re: Re: Heavy metal contamination > >In a message dated 5/22/2004 2:26:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >rw2 writes: >These two articles are included in the CD-ROM Course, but we could make them >available separately - contact me if interested. > > > How much are they? > > Chris ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2004 Report Share Posted May 23, 2004 Hi All, In this note I refer only to chronic elemental toxicity; acute toxicity can manifest in quite different ways to chronic toxicity. The term “heavy metal” includes different elements, the more usual being: As, Cd, Hg, Pb and Zn. However, other trace-element toxicities include those of Al, Co, Cu, F, I, Mn, Se. Each element has its own storage depots, and its “preferred attack tissues”. For example, though F and I are in the halogen group with Cl and Br, toxic effects of F and I differ. F classically accumulates in (and attacks) tooth and bone, whereas I classically accumulates in the thyroid and attacks it and the upper respiratory mucosa. The body’s elemental complexing systems (a form of temporary detoxing) and storage depots, and its normal ways of excreting elements, differ widely. Therefore, there is no one panacea (single form of cure) that we can use to strip all these elements from their depots and ensure their safe excretion. Detox methods depend on which element, or combination of elements, one wants to strip away and eliminate. The one general principle that can be used in all cases of detox is to dring as nuch water as possible. Water must be excreted and it helps to dilute and excrete most toxins. Prevention of elemental toxicity depends of limiting exposure to excessive absorption of the elements. That is basis of strict QC to prevent the sale of elementally contaminated herbal ingredients. Also, it is one of the reasons why bulk extracts of single herbs or formulas are likely to be enforced by law in preference to the sale of crude medicinal herbs or DIY-grow-your-own herbs. Elemental contamination of herbs can arise from two main sources: (a) Wind / rain / smoke / chemical deposition, and (b) Root uptake or soil contamination. (a) Atmospheric deposition, or deliberate dusting/spraying with chemicals are the more important causes of excessive elemental levels in plants. This includes deliberate or accidental deposition of dangerous chemicals (for example use of Cu or As compounds in agricultural sprays), and fallout downwind of pollution-emitting stacks. Environmental monitoring of industrial smoke often analyses lichens on trees or rocks. Lichens act as pollutant accumulators; lichen analysis is very useful in monitoring or sentinel schemes. All coal contains S and metals, but low-grade industrial coal (“crow- coal”) is the worst. MAJOR sources of air pollution, including metal pollutants, SO2, PCBs and dioxins include temporary falls in furnace temperature at startup or recharging, and absence of state- of-the-art stack scrubbers to remove particulates and SO2 before they reach the atmosphere. Large waste incinerators, and furnaces that burn industrial-grade coal (such as heavy industry, steelworks, glassworks, and electricity generators) are the main culprits. Heaviest fallout from emitting stacks is usually within a 1-10 mile radius. However, documented heavy metal toxicity in animals has been traced to emitting stacks at distances up to 26 miles away. Also, I understand that sulphur dioxide emissions from the main coal-burning electricity generating plant in Ireland (Moneypoint, in the south west) has been traced as far away as Scandinavia. IMO, unless they are grown indoors under carefully controlled conditions, lichens & herbs grown in urban areas, or within 20 miles of industrial stacks, should be banned from medicinal use. Cd, Pb and Hg pollution of rivers, bays and coastal areas is common in heavily populated areas. It follows that harvesting of shells and other aquatic life as sources of medicinals in such polluted areas is potentially dangerous. Fish and crustaceans easily accumulate heavy metals, like Hg. (b) Soil as a source of pollution: Heavy metal/elemental contamination of plants can arise by: (1) uptake from soil via roots, and (2) by soil-contamination (rain-splash or dust-blow). Endemic Se toxicity occurs in several places, including USA. Soil Se levels are high to very high, and plants grown there reflect that. Certain plants, such as Astragalus and Equisetum can act as Se- accumulators. Levels of Se as high as 10,000 mg/kg DM (1% DM) have been recorded in some samples of Astragalus in USA. By contrast, root uptake of Pb (even on “reclaimed” mine-spoil, with Pb levels as high as 2%) is very low. Grass grown on such spoil can have quite normal levels of Pb. NEVERTHELESS, dozens of outbreaks of confirmed Pb toxicity in cattle have been confirmed on such soils; the reason was SOIL INGESTION. The grass was OK, but cattle can eat up to 15% of their total DM intake as soil, especially if stocking rates are high, or the siol is wet (spring and autumn). So, plants grown on soils heavily polluted with metals can have high metal levels either by root uptake, or by surface contamination with soil. Sorry for the rant, but research in mineral metabolism (deficiencies and toxicities) in farm animals has paid my rent for almost 40 years. From practical experience and decades of interaction with professionals, I know that many of them, including excellent vets and medics, have little or no knowledge of the complexity of mineral metabolism. Indeed, many of my professional friends do not even know the minimum recommended and maximum tolerable levels of the ESSENTIAL elements, let alone the tolerable levels of the NONESSENTIAL elements! I feel very strongly that it is unwise to rely on herbal medicine alone to handle heavy metal toxicity problems. IMO, it is a classical example of the need for Integrative Medicine – integration of WM/toxicology with the best of Chinese herbalism. IMO, if they are used WITH logically selected WM methods to strip and clear the toxic minerals, herbs may have a most useful role to play in minimizing the effects of sudden surges of blood levels, and sudden loads hitting the excretory paths, as the toxins are stripped and excreted. Finally, I am 100% behind ruthless QC, and banning for sale, of any medicinals that break internationally agreed guidelines on heavy metal levels. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2004 Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 I agree that there are problems with herbs these days. There are pretty good options though. Chlorella is decent for a mildly toxic person, or someone wanting to gently remove toxins over time. Homeopathics have been shown to increase urine metal levels. Although I am not sure a person using Homeopathics wouldn't redistribute toxins as well. I would be more comfortable with therapies that bind the metals strongly all the way out. I am interested in your meaning in writing your last paragraph. On the surface, it could be taken as if a plant batch has been shown to be polluted, that the entire geniis would be stricken. I am pretty sure this is not what you meant, but am just checking. Chris In a message dated 5/23/2004 1:08:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, writes: I feel very strongly that it is unwise to rely on herbal medicine alone to handle heavy metal toxicity problems. IMO, it is a classical example of the need for Integrative Medicine – integration of WM/toxicology with the best of Chinese herbalism. IMO, if they are used WITH logically selected WM methods to strip and clear the toxic minerals, herbs may have a most useful role to play in minimizing the effects of sudden surges of blood levels, and sudden loads hitting the excretory paths, as the toxins are stripped and excreted. Finally, I am 100% behind ruthless QC, and banning for sale, of any medicinals that break internationally agreed guidelines on heavy metal levels. Best regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2004 Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 That would depend upon which type of herbal medicine. I'd agree that standard TCM herbal medicine as it is currently practiced is not adequate. Most western herbalists do not have a handle on this problem either. However, within the past 10 years there have been significant advances in the use of plants and biological extracts to address heavy metal toxicity. I reviewed the major pharmaceutical chelating agents (DMPS, DMSA, EDTA, etc.) and compared them with the herbal and dietary protocols, and talked with physicians and naturopaths who had experience with both, and the general concensus was that the herbal/dietary method was somewhat slower, but not a lot, and that it was far safer, especially if combinations of herbs and dietary protocols were tailored to each case. Toxic reactions - liver and kidney toxicity, CNS symptoms - are more likely to result with synthetic chelating drugs, because each drug is a specific chemical that may be optimal for a specific heavy metal, but perhaps even contraindicated for another. Or, a drug may be great at releasing mercury from bone tissue only to have a tendency to dump it in the CNS where it is much more difficult to remove. Since most people have a multiple heavy metal toxicities, it is unwise to put all of one's eggs in a single basket. Because of the more frequent side effects seen with pharmaceutical chelates, some chelation clinics that use synthetics are beginning to supplement these with the herbal and dietary protocols to reduce the likelihood of side effects. The major reason that practitioners have told me they do not use the recently developed herbal/dietary methods is that these require a good deal of compliance and self-discipline of clients; it is so much easier to sit in a chelation clinic chair watching television with an IV drip in one's arm. wrote: >I feel very strongly that it is unwise to rely on herbal medicine alone >to handle heavy metal toxicity problems. IMO, it is a classical >example of the need for Integrative Medicine – integration of >WM/toxicology with the best of Chinese herbalism. ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2004 Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 Klinghardt's observations have been confirmed by many other practitioners that I've talked with. The fact the some people use muscle testing along with other methods is a side issue. I warn my own students who use muscle testing to never rely on it without other confirming evidence; rather than dismiss it as voodoo, I'd place it in the same category as intuition, a way to get clues, but certainly not conclusive evidence. I've also noticed that competent people with high intelligence also tend to have a well developed sense of intuition - why would it be otherwise? Muscle testing, or AK, has gotten a deservedly bad reputation because of the many people who use it as a complete substitute for rational thought, resulting in the common phenomena of people going out of practitioners' offices with $1000 worth of vitamin pills merely because these products " muscle-tested well " . I've seen the results of the herbal/dietary HM protocol with my own eyes over many years. A common occurence with HM toxicity is to notice that sites of old injuries tend to act up with pain as the metals are released. This was especially dramatic to me when, before I knew much about this subject, I'd give Blood-invigorating formulas to clients resulting in acute aggravations of localized pain in these sites, until I figured out to combine the Blood-invigorating herbs with seaweeds and other herbs known to chelate HMs. These people could then tolerate the Blood-invigorating formulas with only slight and temporary aggravation of localized pain at old injury sites. ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org > " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus >Re: Re: Heavy metal contamination > > Klinghardt's observations re the deposition sites of heavy metals in the body - connective tissue, bone, and scars and tumors, and metabolically less active tissues and the body may choose to store HMs in these locations to minimize total damage. > >>>>>Except that he bases his opinion on this based on muscle testing, and as much as i love Dietrich, and he is one of the smartest people i know, this does not cut for me. Kun bu and hai zao have mostly been used for goiters and its more due to iodine then anything else. It is however well known that some heavy metals are correlated with a higher risk of some cancers >Alon > ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2004 Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 Klinghardt's observations have been confirmed by many other practitioners that I've talked with. The fact the some people use muscle testing along with other methods is a side issue. >>>>How do you confirm that the heavy metal is in muscle, or any other specific tissues? Also i hate to again bring this up but i have challenged Klighart's second (old) half and she could not do any repeated testing in a blind situation to any degree. Actually she did worse than chance alone. Tests against dynamometers have shown that experienced AK practitioners can not even tell changes in measurements. So I will continue to take any AK tests with a rock of salt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2004 Report Share Posted May 24, 2004 >>>Roger wrote: " Tumors tend to form as a means for the body to isolate and wall off irritating and toxic materials that have not been excreted. People with Deficiency syndromes of various types are more likely to manifest tumor formation when excretion or discharge of metabolic toxins and poisons is impaired. " I was curious if there was evidence that tumors, benign or malignant, typically have higher concentrations of heavy metals than surrounding or remote tissues.<<< Hello all, That would certainly solidify Roger's well-researched argument stressing the importance of metabolic toxin elimination, and its relationship to deficiency syndromes. Given the fact that tumor endothelial cells divide much more rapidly than normal endothelial cells, up to 50 times as fast in some cancers (breast cancer), would that lead to an increased uptake of heavy metals by the tumor cells? Daniel Daniel C. Luthi, N.E., C.D.C., Nutritionist Global Training Institution 3-5 F, 27 Zhen Xing Zhong Road Tongxiang, Zhejiang Province, China Cell: 86 1311 681 8493 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2004 Report Share Posted May 28, 2004 Seems to me I posted this already, but perhaps it didn't get through. Anyway, here's your answer: ----------- You ask an obvious and good question that I have asked for many years, the answer to which is not known explicitly, because all the experts I asked said that the research had not been done. It is known that tumors often form as a means of walling off and isolating irritants. According to Dietrich Klinghardt, MD, who is known as an authority on alternative methods for dealing with heavy-metal (HM) toxicity, that HMs tend to selectively deposit in connective tissue, bone, and scar tissue. The suspicion that I have had for many years is that once heavy metals build up to a certain concentration, creating free radical and oxidative stress inside the tumor, it may trigger malignancy. All of the preceding is based on several independent observations: (1) It **is** well known that heavy-metal toxicity is strongly correlated with cancer incidence. (2) The recognition that seaweeds (kun bu, hai zao) were often helpful in resolving tumors - " Phlegm " nodules, and also are very useful for chelating HMs, especially in the GI tract. (And not just thyroid nodules - certain seaweeds have anti-tumor effects that are due several complex constituents other than the iodine.) (3) The observation by Dr. Gerson (of the Gerson cancer clinic) that his methods of vegetable juices, including a lot of crucifers, have been less effective recently than in the 1950's and 1960's. One possibility is the accumulation of heavy metals in most people's bodies, sometimes measuring orders of magnitude more than only 50 years ago. (4) Klinghardt's observations re the deposition sites of heavy metals in the body - connective tissue, bone, and scars and tumors, and metabolically less active tissues and the body may choose to store HMs in these locations to minimize total damage. (5) Some of the very same substances that chelate HMs have also been determined to be effective to varying degrees in certain types of cancer: many vegetables in the Cruciferae family (isothiocyanates), seaweeds, garlic and onions (sulforothanes). (6) When natural methods are used to resolve tumors, a lot of toxic reactions occur, in many cases symptoms occur that are consistent with HM toxicity. I once asked the director of a major international cancer research center who attended my course if there was any evidence that HMs concentration correlated with malignancy of tumors, and he was not aware of any research, but thought the idea was plausible. Here is what would have to be done, and it would be very simple to do: (1) Take a random sampling of people who had died of cancer. (2) In the autopsy, take tissue samples from non-cancerous healthy tissue, non-malignant tumors, and malignant tumors. (3) Assay the tissue samples for the common HMs, then do the statistics on the concentration of various heavy metals in each of the 3 tissue types in (2). > < >Re: Re: Heavy metal contamination > >Roger, > >On May 22, 2004, at 10:37 AM, rw2 wrote: > >> >> Table 2. Toxic effects of various heavy metals, by body systems and >> tissues >> Stagnation of Blood, Qi, and Phlegm > >you wrote in your overcoming heavy metal toxicity article: " Tumors >tend to form as a means for the body to isolate and wall off irritating >and toxic materials that have not been excreted. People with Deficiency >syndromes of various types are more likely to manifest tumor formation >when excretion or discharge of metabolic toxins and poisons is >impaired. " I was curious if there was evidence that tumors, benign or >malignant, typically have higher concentrations of heavy metals than >surrounding or remote tissues. ---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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