macular degeneration + stimulating eye points

[Guest guest]

Hello to all,

 

I work with Dr. Richard Niemtzow at the Acupuncture clinic on Andrews AFB. We

are actually doing a protocol at Andrews AFB, MD with dry macular degeneration

and acupuncture tx. We only have a handful of patients so far. The patients are

first baseline screened by opthalmology then we do Dr. Lundgren's technique. I

can honestly say that we are getting immediate results on all but one patient.

We are only on the 3rd treatment so it's a little presumptious to say we have

any conclusions yet. However, I know that 3 of our patients as reported by

opthalmology have gone from 20/100 vision down to 20/40.

We use Liver 3+Liver 8 hooked together, Liver 14 + an eye point just lateral to

stomach 1. All points are wired up to a small electrical stimulator (including

eye points)

 

Seems like really good stuff so far.

 

Steve

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SBC - Internet access at a great low price.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Great, the acupuncture can really clear the clear orifices sometimes

Does anyone on the list use the 'Eye Wheels' form of diagnosis and treatment

for vision and whole body? I know it is probably too big a subject to just

outline in a hurried internet post. Just curious. Thanks

 

Steve Smith <radicalneuro wrote:Hello to all,

 

I work with Dr. Richard Niemtzow at the Acupuncture clinic on Andrews AFB. We

are actually doing a protocol at Andrews AFB, MD with dry macular degeneration

and acupuncture tx. We only have a handful of patients so far. The patients are

first baseline screened by opthalmology then we do Dr. Lundgren's technique. I

can honestly say that we are getting immediate results on all but one patient.

We are only on the 3rd treatment so it's a little presumptious to say we have

any conclusions yet. However, I know that 3 of our patients as reported by

opthalmology have gone from 20/100 vision down to 20/40.

We use Liver 3+Liver 8 hooked together, Liver 14 + an eye point just lateral to

stomach 1. All points are wired up to a small electrical stimulator (including

eye points)

 

Seems like really good stuff so far.

 

Steve

 

 

 

 

 

 

SBC - Internet access at a great low price.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hello Steve,

 

I am familiar with Niemtzow's work with post-radiation xerostoma. Is the dry

macular degeneration you all are now working with in relation to post radiation

patients? - Matt

-

Steve Smith

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, May 18, 2004 5:06 PM

macular degeneration + stimulating eye points

 

 

Hello to all,

 

I work with Dr. Richard Niemtzow at the Acupuncture clinic on Andrews AFB. We

are actually doing a protocol at Andrews AFB, MD with dry macular degeneration

and acupuncture tx. We only have a handful of patients so far. The patients are

first baseline screened by opthalmology then we do Dr. Lundgren's technique. I

can honestly say that we are getting immediate results on all but one patient.

We are only on the 3rd treatment so it's a little presumptious to say we have

any conclusions yet. However, I know that 3 of our patients as reported by

opthalmology have gone from 20/100 vision down to 20/40.

We use Liver 3+Liver 8 hooked together, Liver 14 + an eye point just lateral

to stomach 1. All points are wired up to a small electrical stimulator

(including eye points)

 

Seems like really good stuff so far.

 

Steve

 

 

 

 

 

SBC - Internet access at a great low price.

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Steve,

 

Thanks for your post.

 

A couple of questions:

 

1) Does the gov't pick up the tab for the tx? In other words, is acupuncture

covered

for armed forces personnel?

 

2) Sounds like a good environment for a clinical trial. I know it's early, but

has there

been any discussion on this?

 

3) Can you give us any specifics on the type of e-stim used (micro- or

milliamps,

frequency, intensity, brand of stimulator used)?

 

Thanks again.

robert hayden

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Steve Smith

<radicalneuro> wrote:

> Hello to all,

>

> I work with Dr. Richard Niemtzow at the Acupuncture clinic on Andrews AFB. We

are

actually doing a protocol at Andrews AFB, MD with dry macular degeneration and

acupuncture tx. We only have a handful of patients so far. The patients are

first

baseline screened by opthalmology then we do Dr. Lundgren's technique. I can

honestly say that we are getting immediate results on all but one patient. We

are only

on the 3rd treatment so it's a little presumptious to say we have any

conclusions yet.

However, I know that 3 of our patients as reported by opthalmology have gone

from

20/100 vision down to 20/40.

> We use Liver 3+Liver 8 hooked together, Liver 14 + an eye point just lateral

to

stomach 1. All points are wired up to a small electrical stimulator (including

eye

points)

>

> Seems like really good stuff so far.

>

> Steve

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> SBC - Internet access at a great low price.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Steve,

This is wonderful!!!! Yes, Dr L talked about Andrews AFB using the protocol.

He did state he found LIV 3, 8 not to be helpful so it is interesting you are

using these points. Perhaps he has gotten similar results w/o them.

 

The important thing is that ACUPUNCTURE WORKS!!!! Sorry, get a bit excited

about the medicine now and then. Smile.

 

Are you just using the 2 eye points? The video shows the 3 upper points and

QiuHuo

--- with all hooked up to electric stim. I would be interested to know what

machine you are using as Dr L stated it had a higher frequency than most models.

 

Are you using just the points from Dr L's protocol or trying other points (GB 37

for example) based on patient signs and symptoms?

 

Thank you for sharing this information. This is dear to my heart as my

grandmother had macular degeneration and I remember her struggles.

 

My patient has an appt tomorrow and I shall pass on your encouraging results.

 

Sincerely,

Kathleen

Steve Smith <radicalneuro wrote:

Hello to all,

 

I work with Dr. Richard Niemtzow at the Acupuncture clinic on Andrews AFB. We

are actually doing a protocol at Andrews AFB, MD with dry macular degeneration

and acupuncture tx. We only have a handful of patients so far. The patients are

first baseline screened by opthalmology then we do Dr. Lundgren's technique. I

can honestly say that we are getting immediate results on all but one patient.

We are only on the 3rd treatment so it's a little presumptious to say we have

any conclusions yet. However, I know that 3 of our patients as reported by

opthalmology have gone from 20/100 vision down to 20/40.

We use Liver 3+Liver 8 hooked together, Liver 14 + an eye point just lateral to

stomach 1. All points are wired up to a small electrical stimulator (including

eye points)

 

Seems like really good stuff so far.

 

Steve

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SBC - Internet access at a great low price.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Steve

 

Are you saying that Liver 14 is connected to the eye point with

E.stim?

 

Thanks

Mark

 

Chinese Medicine , Steve Smith

<radicalneuro> wrote:

> Hello to all,

>

> I work with Dr. Richard Niemtzow at the Acupuncture clinic on

Andrews AFB. We are actually doing a protocol at Andrews AFB, MD

with dry macular degeneration and acupuncture tx. We only have a

handful of patients so far. The patients are first baseline screened

by opthalmology then we do Dr. Lundgren's technique. I can honestly

say that we are getting immediate results on all but one patient. We

are only on the 3rd treatment so it's a little presumptious to say

we have any conclusions yet. However, I know that 3 of our patients

as reported by opthalmology have gone from 20/100 vision down to

20/40.

> We use Liver 3+Liver 8 hooked together, Liver 14 + an eye point

just lateral to stomach 1. All points are wired up to a small

electrical stimulator (including eye points)

>

> Seems like really good stuff so far.

>

> Steve

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> SBC - Internet access at a great low price.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello,

Yes, Dr. Niemtzow had said that Dr. L really wasn't sure about Lv 3 + Lv8.

However, when the protocol was first written they were included so we use them.

We are only using 2 eye points. I believe they are the QiuHuo points. Sorry I'm

only a lowly 2nd year acupuncture student. They are lateral to St1 but not quite

in the corner of the eye. Our stimulator is set at 2hz not the 2000hz that Dr. L

is using. I believe that we are using the lower frequency based on the good pain

relieve results that we get at lower frequencies. Also if I remember correctly

Dr. Z.H.Cho did some interesting work with functional MRI and speculated that

lower frequency stimulation may move neurotransmitters that assist the body in

healing.

The only points we are using are Lv3+Lv8, Lv14(or GB 24 in 5 element

tradition)+eye points all hooked to the stimualtor at 2hz for 20 minutes.

 

Hope that helps,

 

Steve

 

 

 

Kathleen Mathews <kthmathews2003 wrote:

Steve,

This is wonderful!!!! Yes, Dr L talked about Andrews AFB using the protocol.

He did state he found LIV 3, 8 not to be helpful so it is interesting you are

using these points. Perhaps he has gotten similar results w/o them.

 

The important thing is that ACUPUNCTURE WORKS!!!! Sorry, get a bit excited

about the medicine now and then. Smile.

 

Are you just using the 2 eye points? The video shows the 3 upper points and

QiuHuo

--- with all hooked up to electric stim. I would be interested to know what

machine you are using as Dr L stated it had a higher frequency than most models.

 

Are you using just the points from Dr L's protocol or trying other points (GB 37

for example) based on patient signs and symptoms?

 

Thank you for sharing this information. This is dear to my heart as my

grandmother had macular degeneration and I remember her struggles.

 

My patient has an appt tomorrow and I shall pass on your encouraging results.

 

Sincerely,

Kathleen

Steve Smith <radicalneuro wrote:

Hello to all,

 

I work with Dr. Richard Niemtzow at the Acupuncture clinic on Andrews AFB. We

are actually doing a protocol at Andrews AFB, MD with dry macular degeneration

and acupuncture tx. We only have a handful of patients so far. The patients are

first baseline screened by opthalmology then we do Dr. Lundgren's technique. I

can honestly say that we are getting immediate results on all but one patient.

We are only on the 3rd treatment so it's a little presumptious to say we have

any conclusions yet. However, I know that 3 of our patients as reported by

opthalmology have gone from 20/100 vision down to 20/40.

We use Liver 3+Liver 8 hooked together, Liver 14 + an eye point just lateral to

stomach 1. All points are wired up to a small electrical stimulator (including

eye points)

 

Seems like really good stuff so far.

 

Steve

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SBC - Internet access at a great low price.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hello,

Answers to your questions.

1) Yes we are the first ever established full time acupuncture clinic in the Air

Force. The is a tremendous amount of talk at upper levels to have acupuncture

spread throughout the Air Force. It will probably happen but as with all new

things and the military it takes time. To answer your question " Yes " we see

everyone eligible for military care in the national captial area.

2) We only started the protocol a few weeks ago so not much discussion yet.

3) We use a Pantheon stimulator on the milliwatt setting at 2Hz for 20 minutes.

 

Hope that helps,

 

Steve

 

kampo36 <kampo36 wrote:

Hi Steve,

 

Thanks for your post.

 

A couple of questions:

 

1) Does the gov't pick up the tab for the tx? In other words, is acupuncture

covered

for armed forces personnel?

 

2) Sounds like a good environment for a clinical trial. I know it's early, but

has there

been any discussion on this?

 

3) Can you give us any specifics on the type of e-stim used (micro- or

milliamps,

frequency, intensity, brand of stimulator used)?

 

Thanks again.

robert hayden

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Steve Smith

<radicalneuro> wrote:

> Hello to all,

>

> I work with Dr. Richard Niemtzow at the Acupuncture clinic on Andrews AFB. We

are

actually doing a protocol at Andrews AFB, MD with dry macular degeneration and

acupuncture tx. We only have a handful of patients so far. The patients are

first

baseline screened by opthalmology then we do Dr. Lundgren's technique. I can

honestly say that we are getting immediate results on all but one patient. We

are only

on the 3rd treatment so it's a little presumptious to say we have any

conclusions yet.

However, I know that 3 of our patients as reported by opthalmology have gone

from

20/100 vision down to 20/40.

> We use Liver 3+Liver 8 hooked together, Liver 14 + an eye point just lateral

to

stomach 1. All points are wired up to a small electrical stimulator (including

eye

points)

>

> Seems like really good stuff so far.

>

> Steve

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> SBC - Internet access at a great low price.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello,

 

The short answer is no. The people that we are seeing are referred to us

exclusively from ophthalmology.

Have a great day.

Steve

 

Matt Bauer <acu.guy wrote:

Hello Steve,

 

I am familiar with Niemtzow's work with post-radiation xerostoma. Is the dry

macular degeneration you all are now working with in relation to post radiation

patients? - Matt

-

Steve Smith

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, May 18, 2004 5:06 PM

macular degeneration + stimulating eye points

 

 

Hello to all,

 

I work with Dr. Richard Niemtzow at the Acupuncture clinic on Andrews AFB. We

are actually doing a protocol at Andrews AFB, MD with dry macular degeneration

and acupuncture tx. We only have a handful of patients so far. The patients are

first baseline screened by opthalmology then we do Dr. Lundgren's technique. I

can honestly say that we are getting immediate results on all but one patient.

We are only on the 3rd treatment so it's a little presumptious to say we have

any conclusions yet. However, I know that 3 of our patients as reported by

opthalmology have gone from 20/100 vision down to 20/40.

We use Liver 3+Liver 8 hooked together, Liver 14 + an eye point just lateral

to stomach 1. All points are wired up to a small electrical stimulator

(including eye points)

 

Seems like really good stuff so far.

 

Steve

 

 

 

 

 

SBC - Internet access at a great low price.

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Steve & All,

 

Robert wrote:

> Hi Steve, ... Sounds like a good environment for a clinical trial.

> I know it's early, but has there been any discussion on this? ...

> Can you give us any specifics on the type of e-stim used (micro-

> or milliamps, frequency, intensity, brand of stimulator used)?

> ...robert

 

Steve replied:

> (1) ... we are the first established full time AP clinic in the Air

> Force ... we see everyone eligible for military care in the

> national captial area. (2) We only started the protocol a few

> weeks ago so not much discussion yet. (3) We use a Pantheon

> stimulator on the milliwatt setting at 2Hz for 20 minutes. Steve

 

Steve, that is great! But I hope that those Airforce personnel that

present for Tx of macular degeneration are not fighter- or bomber-

pilots!!

 

As regards possibilities for a trial, I would love to see a randomised

trial of simple AP (just needling) versus the Pantheon protocol,

using exactly the same points in both groups!

 

My guess is that results in BOTH methods (Pantheon-AP & simple

needle-AP) would be as good as you are finding to date, with little

or no significant improvement in the electrostimulated group over

the needling-only group.

 

For several years, I have reverted to simple AP needling in people,

horses or dogs. I use electrostimulation very rarely now. In the

past, I tried many methods (point-injection with saline or saline +

local anaesthetic diluted to 0.5% strength, electro-AP, laser-AP,

SuperLizer-AP (very expensive Japanses gadget that combines IR

laser + IR heat + red-light laser, costing circa 11,000 US$!), heat

via infrared lamps, etc).

 

My experience was that, apart from Tx of paralysis and induction of

AP hypoalgesia for minor surgery (tooth extraction, etc), electro-

AP did not give better results than simple AP.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "

[Guest guest]

Phil,

 

I agree, it would be interesting to see if there was any difference. Also, if

those receiving treatment based on root vs just treating the branch would have

increased visual accuracy. I asked Dr L if any of the patients were being

treated for the root by DOMs but his answer didn't address my question.

 

Not sure if pilots are being treated/tested as one would assume they already

have good vision (no comment on the 'targets'), but Dr L did mention at the

Albuquerque seminar those being treated were retirees.

 

Kathleen

 

< wrote:

Hi Steve & All,

 

 

As regards possibilities for a trial, I would love to see a randomised

trial of simple AP (just needling) versus the Pantheon protocol,

using exactly the same points in both groups!

 

My guess is that results in BOTH methods (Pantheon-AP & simple

needle-AP) would be as good as you are finding to date, with little

or no significant improvement in the electrostimulated group over

the needling-only group.

 

For several years, I have reverted to simple AP needling in people,

horses or dogs. I use electrostimulation very rarely now. In the

past, I tried many methods (point-injection with saline or saline +

local anaesthetic diluted to 0.5% strength, electro-AP, laser-AP,

SuperLizer-AP (very expensive Japanses gadget that combines IR

laser + IR heat + red-light laser, costing circa 11,000 US$!), heat

via infrared lamps, etc).

 

My experience was that, apart from Tx of paralysis and induction of

AP hypoalgesia for minor surgery (tooth extraction, etc), electro-

AP did not give better results than simple AP.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing

it "

 

 

Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam

messages,flame another member or swear.

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

delivered.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, Kathleen Mathews <kthmathews2003> wrote:

> Phil,

>

> I agree, it would be interesting to see if there was any

difference. Also, if those receiving treatment based on root vs

just treating the branch would have increased visual accuracy. I

asked Dr L if any of the patients were being treated for the root by

DOMs but his answer didn't address my question.

 

 

IMO The problem with such trials is that macular degeneration has

to involve LIV Blood Xu So out of 100 people the chances of helping

is pretty good. However, IF one of the Roots is a Def. LIV then

tonifying pretty much any LIV point is going to helpful. On the

other hand Excess SP, LU or Def KID will also affect the LIV

especially if the Root is disturbed over a long period of time.

In such a situation, were one to focus on treating the symptom ,

would the trials take notice of new arising symptoms of wrong

treatment? I somehow doubt they would make the link.

 

salvador

 

http://meridian-qi-acupuncture.com