Guest guest Posted May 16, 2004 Report Share Posted May 16, 2004 Hello Everyone, I noticed in a survey in the new issue of Acupuncture Today that only a small percentage of TCM practitioners are using patents. Is there a general consensus out there of what herbal modalities work best, i.e. granuales, bulk teas, decoctions,liquids, etc.? There is also the issue of patient compliance. Mine all want capsules or pills. Some patients such as ones with endometriosis I find do not respond very well to patents as they are not strong enough. Can I hear from those of you are happy with the herbal modalities, companies, etc. that you are using? Sincerely, Margie Parolisi NCCAOM Dipl. OM SBC - Internet access at a great low price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2004 Report Share Posted May 17, 2004 Hi Margie! Get the Fratkin book, to begin with. I like Mayway, the Min Shan line is quite economical. At 03:17 PM 5/16/2004, you wrote: > > >Hello Everyone, > >I noticed in a survey in the new issue of Acupuncture Today that only a >small percentage of TCM practitioners are using patents. Is there a >general consensus out there of what herbal modalities work best, i.e. >granuales, bulk teas, decoctions,liquids, etc.? There is also the issue of >patient compliance. Mine all want capsules or pills. Some patients such as >ones with endometriosis I find do not respond very well to patents as they >are not strong enough. Can I hear from those of you are happy with the >herbal modalities, companies, etc. that you are using? > > >Sincerely, > > > > >Margie Parolisi > > >NCCAOM Dipl. OM > > > > > > > >SBC - Internet access at a great low price. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2004 Report Share Posted May 17, 2004 Hi Pete, Thank you for replying. I have the Fratkin book and I use it frequently. I also like Mayway, the Min Shan line, and also the Plum Flower patents are great and quite economical. My problem is that these formulas are not strong enough to help some of my patients. I noticed in a survey in the new issue of Acupuncture Today that only a small percentage of TCM practitioners are using patents. So I guess my question is what are they using and how are they getting the patients to ingest granuales, bulk teas, decoctions,liquids,or whatever they are using. I used to have a bulk herb pharmacy in my practice, but they for the most part, went to waste as people would not prepare the teas!! Sincerely, Margie Parolisi NCCAOM Dip. OM Pete Theisen <petet wrote: Hi Margie! Get the Fratkin book, to begin with. I like Mayway, the Min Shan line is quite economical. At 03:17 PM 5/16/2004, you wrote: > > >Hello Everyone, > >I noticed in a survey in the new issue of Acupuncture Today that only a >small percentage of TCM practitioners are using patents. Is there a >general consensus out there of what herbal modalities work best, i.e. >granuales, bulk teas, decoctions,liquids, etc.? There is also the issue of >patient compliance. Mine all want capsules or pills. Some patients such as >ones with endometriosis I find do not respond very well to patents as they >are not strong enough. Can I hear from those of you are happy with the >herbal modalities, companies, etc. that you are using? > > >Sincerely, > > > > >Margie Parolisi > > >NCCAOM Dipl. OM > > > > > > > >SBC - Internet access at a great low price. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2004 Report Share Posted May 17, 2004 When I had a fulltime practice I was using granules and mixing the prepared formulas with single herb granules. Usually the patients would mix the granules with water but I also had a capsule loader so i would make custom capsulized prescriptions for an extra charge. I tried most of the commonly-found brands but I prefer KPC. Andy Ellis has a great book which is geared toward using KPC formulas but is applicable to herb formulas in general. If you're in S. Florida there is a KPC distributor in Hollywood. robert hayden http://jabinet.net Chinese Medicine , margie parolisi <parolisi1> wrote: > Hi Pete, > > Thank you for replying. I have the Fratkin book and I use it frequently. I also like Mayway, the Min Shan line, and also the Plum Flower patents are great and quite economical. My problem is that these formulas are not strong enough to help some of my patients. > > I noticed in a survey in the new issue of Acupuncture Today that only a small percentage of TCM practitioners are using patents. So I guess my question is what are they using and how are they getting the patients to ingest granuales, bulk teas, decoctions,liquids,or whatever they are using. I used to have a bulk herb pharmacy in my practice, but they for the most part, went to waste as people would not prepare the teas!! > > Sincerely, > > > > Margie Parolisi > > NCCAOM Dip. OM > > > > Pete Theisen <petet@a...> wrote: > Hi Margie! > > Get the Fratkin book, to begin with. I like Mayway, the Min Shan line is > quite economical. > > At 03:17 PM 5/16/2004, you wrote: > > > > > > >Hello Everyone, > > > >I noticed in a survey in the new issue of Acupuncture Today that only a > >small percentage of TCM practitioners are using patents. Is there a > >general consensus out there of what herbal modalities work best, i.e. > >granuales, bulk teas, decoctions,liquids, etc.? There is also the issue of > >patient compliance. Mine all want capsules or pills. Some patients such as > >ones with endometriosis I find do not respond very well to patents as they > >are not strong enough. Can I hear from those of you are happy with the > >herbal modalities, companies, etc. that you are using? > > > > > >Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > >Margie Parolisi > > > > > >NCCAOM Dipl. OM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >SBC - Internet access at a great low price. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2004 Report Share Posted May 17, 2004 Hi Robert, Thank you for your great reply. I do like KPC and Andrew Ellis and I do live in Plantation, Florida. I think you are right in that KPC granules are the best way to go. I still have the problem of patient compliance drinking the herbs or I could load them up in caps. What a great answer you gave me! I also think I was too quick to introduce people to the friendly little tea pills and then if the teapills were not strong enough to be successfully therapeutic (in some cases), then the patient was unwilling to switch to a tea or take a lot of capsules. If I were using the granules from start I could easily increase the dosage. May I ask you what the name of Andrew Ellis book? Thank you so much for your ideas. I appreciate your time. Too bad you are not practicing full time as I bet you are really excellent. Margie P SBC - Internet access at a great low price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2004 Report Share Posted May 17, 2004 Hi Margie, You're very welcome. I thought I recognized your name from when I was living in Hollywood. I used to shop at WFM in Plantation all the time. The book is called Notes from South Mountain. Here's a link: http://redwingbooks.com/products/books/NotSouMou.cfm In book form it's about $50. It is also on cd-rom for a lot less $$$ -- might be the way to go, since the cd-rom is searchable. Granules are very easy to use and adjust the dosage, etc. I found patient compliance was very good, and I was able to customize the formula very easily. Also I was able to dispense only as much as was needed, so if I was unsure about patient sensitivity to the herbs for example I could just give them a day or two dosage instead of selling them a whole bottle of pills. Same if you wanted to purge with a rhubarb rx or whatever -- why sell them a bunch of stuff they won't use. Patients appreciated that too. I found a lot of pluses and very few minuses in this approach. If you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask. Thank you for the nice comments. I'm taking a hiatus to be a stay-at-home dad to my 18-month-old son, still doing some teaching but don't really have time to do a fulltime practice. I'm sure my pediatrics skills will be pretty good once I'm back to work, though. Take care, robert hayden http://jabinet.net Chinese Medicine , margie parolisi <parolisi1> wrote: > Hi Robert, > > Thank you for your great reply. I do like KPC and Andrew Ellis and I do live in Plantation, Florida. I think you are right in that KPC granules are the best way to go. I still have the problem of patient compliance drinking the herbs or I could load them up in caps. What a great answer you gave me! I also think I was too quick to introduce people to the friendly little tea pills and then if the teapills were not strong enough to be successfully therapeutic (in some cases), then the patient was unwilling to switch to a tea or take a lot of capsules. If I were using the granules from start I could easily increase the dosage. > May I ask you what the name of Andrew Ellis book? Thank you so much for your ideas. I appreciate your time. Too bad you are not practicing full time as I bet you are really excellent. > > Margie P > > > > > SBC - Internet access at a great low price. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2004 Report Share Posted May 17, 2004 Hi Margie, While my family doesn't use herbs anymore, when we did, we found electric herb cookers such as this one very convenient since it automatically shuts down when the cooking is completed and the herbs can be reused in the cooker as required. http://www.forumappliances.com/one_prod.php?pid=2101-1 & catId=2101 This may encourage greater usage of herbs among your clients. However, in my family's experiences as a patients (which stretehed over 15 years), there was not much difference between whole herbs and granules such as KPC - though the granules tended to have a greater effect than tablets. It is my current feeling that the primary issues facing herb prescriptions are not the strength of the underlying herbs but instead is the correct matching of herbs to the underlying health problems. By this I mean: 1) It is difficult to find the correct combination of herbs to change the " qi pattern " from a stagnant to flowing in the affected parts of the body especially when stagnation may exist in many channels and zang fu organs - especially when the patterns are constantly changing The mind has a habit of doing this :-) 2) Herb theory does not seem to properly address the heart/mind component which invariably seems to be the root of chronic as well as many acute problems. For this reason, my family sometimes use herbs in tea for as an adjunct to bodywork treatments (e.g., tuina, shiatsu, cupping, gua sha, etc. ) but not as a primary modality. Interestingly, my son in the past refused to continue herbal treatments. In retrospect, I believe it was because he did not see any results, even after very long periods of time. However, he goes to our current tuina/gigong doctor every week on a regular basis, even though the treatments can be quite painful at time (vigorous work on stagnated parts of the body). My guess is because his " mind " feels the body is indeed getting better. My wife and I have had similar reactions. I would be interested in any similar or counter experiences that you or other listers may have had in regard to herbal therapy. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2004 Report Share Posted May 17, 2004 Hi Robert, How wonderful that you are staying home with your young son. It will be time well invested. Thank you again. Sincerely, Margie P kampo36 <kampo36 wrote: Hi Margie, You're very welcome. I thought I recognized your name from when I was living in Hollywood. I used to shop at WFM in Plantation all the time. The book is called Notes from South Mountain. Here's a link: http://redwingbooks.com/products/books/NotSouMou.cfm In book form it's about $50. It is also on cd-rom for a lot less $$$ -- might be the way to go, since the cd-rom is searchable. Granules are very easy to use and adjust the dosage, etc. I found patient compliance was very good, and I was able to customize the formula very easily. Also I was able to dispense only as much as was needed, so if I was unsure about patient sensitivity to the herbs for example I could just give them a day or two dosage instead of selling them a whole bottle of pills. Same if you wanted to purge with a rhubarb rx or whatever -- why sell them a bunch of stuff they won't use. Patients appreciated that too. I found a lot of pluses and very few minuses in this approach. If you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask. Thank you for the nice comments. I'm taking a hiatus to be a stay-at-home dad to my 18-month-old son, still doing some teaching but don't really have time to do a fulltime practice. I'm sure my pediatrics skills will be pretty good once I'm back to work, though. Take care, robert hayden http://jabinet.net Chinese Medicine , margie parolisi <parolisi1> wrote: > Hi Robert, > > Thank you for your great reply. I do like KPC and Andrew Ellis and I do live in Plantation, Florida. I think you are right in that KPC granules are the best way to go. I still have the problem of patient compliance drinking the herbs or I could load them up in caps. What a great answer you gave me! I also think I was too quick to introduce people to the friendly little tea pills and then if the teapills were not strong enough to be successfully therapeutic (in some cases), then the patient was unwilling to switch to a tea or take a lot of capsules. If I were using the granules from start I could easily increase the dosage. > May I ask you what the name of Andrew Ellis book? Thank you so much for your ideas. I appreciate your time. Too bad you are not practicing full time as I bet you are really excellent. > > Margie P > > > > > SBC - Internet access at a great low price. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2004 Report Share Posted May 17, 2004 Hi, everybody. First time posting here. Margie, the topic of which form of CH to use is very near and dear to my heart. I have this discussion all the time with fellow practitioners, students, and Chinese medical professors. I recently had a short paper on the topic published in the Acupuncture Association of Colorado newsletter. In my practice, at least 85% of my patients are on bulk decoctions. The others are on powders, for the most part. I rarley use patents, pills, or tablets, and I never use them as the sole herbal treatment. To me, it's a matter of standard of care. Our knowledge of the medicine is based on past expereince. That is, we can accurately diagnose, treat, and prognose with Chinese medicine because of what past practitioners have left to us. I am able to have a high level of confidence in my treatments because past practitioners have done this many times before and passed on their knowledge to us. I even go as far as saying Chinese medicine is defined by its being founded in certain logico-philosophical paradigms, though I'm not sure that's a word, and collective experience. This, of course, implies a medicine deviant from either of these fundamental paradigms (examples being inductive synthesis, holism, etc.) or from past experience is necessarily not Chinese medicine. A bit harsh, but the underlying point is important, I think. I use bulk decoctions, in large part, because that is what the medicine knows. My years in training as a Chinese medical herbalist were spent studying knowledge accumulated using raw herbs. This knowledge is therefore about raw herbs. If I want to do what I read and studied about, I have to use raw herbs. Yes, 'pills' were used, historically, but not modern 'teapills', and yes, powdered herbs were used but they were ground from raw herbs, not processed in the same way as in modern times. Now, as far as how to get patients to take decoctions, again, for me, it comes down to standard of care. I am a Chinese medical professional. I strive to practice Chinese medicine to its fullest potential. For CH, this means using bulk decoctions. I live by this standard. This is my practice. In treatment, I inform the pateint that they will be stopping by the herbal pharmacy to pick-up a formula that they will then take home and cook. Period. There's no listing of options to the patient. There are no options. There is a basic standard of care. That is my default, my basic approach. If it proves to be a problem, even after three weeks of genuine effort, I may switch them to the best compromise - powders (and hence, the roughly 10-15% of my patients on powders.) It should also be said that decoctions work very well. Significant symptom alleviation is often felt with the first week of herbs (obviously more so in acute, excess presentations). And, often, with six to ten weeks worth of herbal treamtent, results are seen that all previous medical interventions failed to achieve. You can do serious, honest-to-god Healing with tailored raw decoctions. I share this information with my patients. Not only does the info, itself, assist in compliance, but my confidence and committment to the highest possible standards also helps. Such are my beliefs and experiences. I enjoy these discussions and look forward to hearing (reading) responses. margie parolisi <parolisi1 wrote: Hi Pete, Thank you for replying. I have the Fratkin book and I use it frequently. I also like Mayway, the Min Shan line, and also the Plum Flower patents are great and quite economical. My problem is that these formulas are not strong enough to help some of my patients. I noticed in a survey in the new issue of Acupuncture Today that only a small percentage of TCM practitioners are using patents. So I guess my question is what are they using and how are they getting the patients to ingest granuales, bulk teas, decoctions,liquids,or whatever they are using. I used to have a bulk herb pharmacy in my practice, but they for the most part, went to waste as people would not prepare the teas!! Sincerely, Margie Parolisi NCCAOM Dip. OM Pete Theisen <petet wrote: Hi Margie! Get the Fratkin book, to begin with. I like Mayway, the Min Shan line is quite economical. At 03:17 PM 5/16/2004, you wrote: > > >Hello Everyone, > >I noticed in a survey in the new issue of Acupuncture Today that only a >small percentage of TCM practitioners are using patents. Is there a >general consensus out there of what herbal modalities work best, i.e. >granuales, bulk teas, decoctions,liquids, etc.? There is also the issue of >patient compliance. Mine all want capsules or pills. Some patients such as >ones with endometriosis I find do not respond very well to patents as they >are not strong enough. Can I hear from those of you are happy with the >herbal modalities, companies, etc. that you are using? > > >Sincerely, > > > > >Margie Parolisi > > >NCCAOM Dipl. OM > > > > > > > >SBC - Internet access at a great low price. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 Hi Margie! This is the crux of it, if the people won't use the prescription. Take a look at the double strength ones - if they need to, they can take a double dose. Look at the ingredients carefully to make sure nothing in there is contraindicated in that dose. At 10:07 AM 5/17/2004, you wrote:<snip> waste as people would not prepare the teas!! Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 I just want to say that i entirely agree with John Aguilar. The bulk herb prescription is the basic standard form. When it comes to compliance, I find it interesting that my recent herb student graduates (York UK) complain that less than 50% of their patients tolerate and continue with the loose herbs and yet well over 90% of my patients takes them. I think experience and confidence in the practitioner is an issue here. I don't normally tell patients I have been doing it 20 years, they can just tell. They do what I tell them!! That said, I think there are situations where much lower doses are actually preferable, and work better. I recently published an article on this in the Journal of (UK). I do think the loose herbs hve more pronounced qi. As an experiment try comparing concentrated powder bo he tea with the actual herb. My debut on this group too so I would like to say hi to everyone. best wishes charlie buck --- " John Aguilar, Jr. " <jagtao wrote: > Hi, everybody. First time posting here. > > Margie, the topic of which form of CH to use is > very near and dear to my heart. I have this > discussion all the time with fellow practitioners, > students, and Chinese medical professors. I > recently had a short paper on the topic published in > the Acupuncture Association of Colorado newsletter. > > In my practice, at least 85% of my patients are > on bulk decoctions. The others are on powders, for > the most part. I rarley use patents, pills, or > tablets, and I never use them as the sole herbal > treatment. > To me, it's a matter of standard of care. Our > knowledge of the medicine is based on past > expereince. That is, we can accurately diagnose, > treat, and prognose with Chinese medicine because of > what past practitioners have left to us. I am able > to have a high level of confidence in my treatments > because past practitioners have done this many times > before and passed on their knowledge to us. > I even go as far as saying Chinese medicine is > defined by its being founded in certain > logico-philosophical paradigms, though I'm not sure > that's a word, and collective experience. This, of > course, implies a medicine deviant from either of > these fundamental paradigms (examples being > inductive synthesis, holism, etc.) or from past > experience is necessarily not Chinese medicine. A > bit harsh, but the underlying point is important, I > think. > I use bulk decoctions, in large part, because > that is what the medicine knows. My years in > training as a Chinese medical herbalist were spent > studying knowledge accumulated using raw herbs. > This knowledge is therefore about raw herbs. If I > want to do what I read and studied about, I have to > use raw herbs. > Yes, 'pills' were used, historically, but not > modern 'teapills', and yes, powdered herbs were used > but they were ground from raw herbs, not processed > in the same way as in modern times. > Now, as far as how to get patients to take > decoctions, again, for me, it comes down to standard > of care. I am a Chinese medical professional. I > strive to practice Chinese medicine to its fullest > potential. For CH, this means using bulk > decoctions. I live by this standard. This is my > practice. In treatment, I inform the pateint that > they will be stopping by the herbal pharmacy to > pick-up a formula that they will then take home and > cook. Period. There's no listing of options to the > patient. There are no options. There is a basic > standard of care. That is my default, my basic > approach. > If it proves to be a problem, even after three > weeks of genuine effort, I may switch them to the > best compromise - powders (and hence, the roughly > 10-15% of my patients on powders.) > It should also be said that decoctions work very > well. Significant symptom alleviation is often felt > with the first week of herbs (obviously more so in > acute, excess presentations). And, often, with six > to ten weeks worth of herbal treamtent, results are > seen that all previous medical interventions failed > to achieve. You can do serious, honest-to-god > Healing with tailored raw decoctions. > I share this information with my patients. Not > only does the info, itself, assist in compliance, > but my confidence and committment to the highest > possible standards also helps. > Such are my beliefs and experiences. I enjoy > these discussions and look forward to hearing > (reading) responses. > > > > > margie parolisi <parolisi1 wrote: > Hi Pete, > > Thank you for replying. I have the Fratkin book and > I use it frequently. I also like Mayway, the Min > Shan line, and also the Plum Flower patents are > great and quite economical. My problem is that these > formulas are not strong enough to help some of my > patients. > > I noticed in a survey in the new issue of > Acupuncture Today that only a small percentage of > TCM practitioners are using patents. So I guess my > question is what are they using and how are they > getting the patients to ingest granuales, bulk teas, > decoctions,liquids,or whatever they are using. I > used to have a bulk herb pharmacy in my practice, > but they for the most part, went to waste as people > would not prepare the teas!! > > Sincerely, > > > > Margie > Parolisi > > NCCAOM > Dip. OM > > > > Pete Theisen <petet wrote: > Hi Margie! > > Get the Fratkin book, to begin with. I like Mayway, > the Min Shan line is > quite economical. > > At 03:17 PM 5/16/2004, you wrote: > > > > > > >Hello Everyone, > > > >I noticed in a survey in the new issue of > Acupuncture Today that only a > >small percentage of TCM practitioners are using > patents. Is there a > >general consensus out there of what herbal > modalities work best, i.e. > >granuales, bulk teas, decoctions,liquids, etc.? > There is also the issue of > >patient compliance. Mine all want capsules or > pills. Some patients such as > >ones with endometriosis I find do not respond very > well to patents as they > >are not strong enough. Can I hear from those of you > are happy with the > >herbal modalities, companies, etc. that you are > using? > > > > > >Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > >Margie Parolisi > > > > > >NCCAOM Dipl. OM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >SBC - Internet access at a great low price. > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > >Membership requires that you do not post any > commerical, swear, religious, > >spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > > >To translate this message, copy and paste it into > this web link > >page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > > > > > and adjust > >accordingly. > > > >If you , it takes a few days for the > messages to stop being > >delivered. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2004 Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 Hi Charlie, Thanks for joining the group. Yes, I have read your article 'Dosage is a secret that is never taught' in the JCM We had a discussion on it some time back. Great article. Can you elaborate more on the different doses for different races of people, i.e. westerns and Chinese? Also what are you views on the use of granules and powders in dose form? Kind regards Attilio <Chinese Traditional Medicine> Chinese Traditional Medicine Charles Buck [chesterclinic] 18 May 2004 19:20 Chinese Medicine Re: Herbal Therapy That said, I think there are situations where much lower doses are actually preferable, and work better. I recently published an article on this in the Journal of (UK). I do think the loose herbs hve more pronounced qi. As an experiment try comparing concentrated powder bo he tea with the actual herb. My debut on this group too so I would like to say hi to everyone. best wishes charlie buck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2004 Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 Hi attilio, i hesitate to say i can speak with authority on these questions. It has been said that the chinese need higher doses than westerners, supposedly beacuse they are somehow genetically more used to them. Some say we are more like the japanese and can get by with slightly lower doses. I'm not sure about this, I think the biggest differences are probably between individuals and not races. The biggest problem, in my view, about the use of concentrated powders is the fact that when a manufacturer says they are 5:1 ratio, etc they are talking about an average across their product range. I gather it may be 1:1 or 20:1 ratio in individual herbs. So if your conc shi gao is 1;1 (and I have just today written a script using 45 g shigao) then you may have to use 45g of conc shi gao for a single day!! This can make a nonsense of prescription dynamics, our carefully constructed prescriptions can be scambled by thes factors. Its not that i don't use powders, but it tends to be a last resort. I would welcome other people's views on the whole dose question. My article in the JCM was not intended to be in any way definative. This is a difficult but important area I feel. best wishes charlie buck --- Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto wrote: > Hi Charlie, > > Thanks for joining the group. Yes, I have read your > article 'Dosage is a > secret that is never taught' in the JCM We had a > discussion on it some time > back. Great article. > > Can you elaborate more on the different doses for > different races of people, > i.e. westerns and Chinese? Also what are you views > on the use of granules > and powders in dose form? > > Kind regards > > Attilio > > > <Chinese Traditional Medicine> > Chinese Traditional Medicine > > > Charles Buck > [chesterclinic] > 18 May 2004 19:20 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Herbal Therapy > > > That said, I think there are situations where much > lower doses are actually preferable, and work > better. > I recently published an article on this in the > Journal > of (UK). > > I do think the loose herbs hve more pronounced qi. > As > an experiment try comparing concentrated powder bo > he > tea with the actual herb. > > My debut on this group too so I would like to say hi > to everyone. > > best wishes > charlie buck > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2004 Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 Hi Charlie, Chinese Medicine , Charles Buck <chesterclinic> wrote: >It has been said that the chinese need > higher doses than westerners, supposedly beacuse they > are somehow genetically more used to them. Some say we > are more like the japanese and can get by with > slightly lower doses. I'm not sure about this, I think > the biggest differences are probably between > individuals and not races. I've also heard the opinion expressed by a well-known Japanese practitioner that the Chinese export their highest quality herbs to Japan, Taiwan, etc, so their hospitals dispense higher dosages to compensate for poorer quality. I do think individuals even of the same family may need quite different dosages. Race -- well, i'd kind of hoped we've moved beyond that one by now. > > The biggest problem, in my view, about the use of > concentrated powders is the fact that when a > manufacturer says they are 5:1 ratio, etc they are > talking about an average across their product range. > I gather it may be 1:1 or 20:1 ratio in individual > herbs. So if your conc shi gao is 1;1 (and I have just > today written a script using 45 g shigao) then you may > have to use 45g of conc shi gao for a single day!! > > This can make a nonsense of prescription dynamics, our > carefully constructed prescriptions can be scambled by > thes factors. Its not that i don't use powders, but it > tends to be a last resort. I do think after several years of using the extract preparations that they are a different medium than bulk herbs and mistakes will be made if they are treated the same. I would say it took me quite a bit of trial and error before I got confident in dosages and mixing different formulas -- but the same could be said of anyone dispensing bulk herbs on their own as well. I do think one needs to keep in mind that shells, minerals, etc are 1:1, but even so I've found in my own personal experience that dosing them as if they were 5:1 often yields the desired result -- Mu Li and Long Gu come to mind as two substances that I've found behave in this way. I do think it is important to stay as much as possible with one brand; I generally use KPC, others like Sun Ten, Qualiherb, etc. I've found that for whatever reason (possibly standard manufacturing process) the granules mix better and their results are generally more predictable when using a single line as opposed to mixing. > > --- Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto> > wrote: > Hi Charlie, > > > > Thanks for joining the group. Yes, I have read your > > article 'Dosage is a > > secret that is never taught' in the JCM We had a > > discussion on it some time > > back. Great article. > > " Dosage is a secret that is never taught " ... what a deep truth that is. Not just for herbs, either... for acupuncture too... for life in general.... robert hayden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2004 Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 Hi Robert, > > " Dosage is a secret that is never taught " ... what a deep truth that is. Not just for > herbs, either... for acupuncture too... for life in general.... > > robert hayden My view of " dosage " has changed over time - as I observed acupuncturists and herbalists attempt to find " just the right amount " dosage that will bring the body into the " balance " . It seemed to me to be impossible. Through my Taiji/Qigong studies and observations of various treatment modalities (acupuncture, herbal, tuina), I transformed my thoughts on this matter. Rather than attempting to force the body into " balance " by " adding " or " substracting " (this leads to many difficult questions such as: How to add or substract - which herbs, which points, what quantity, etc.? How much to add to add or subtract - should I add here and substract there, etc.? How do I know when precise balance is achieved?), I let the body find its own natural balance by finding obstructions which prevent flow - or communication. Obstructions can be mental, physical, or spiritual - and I have found in most cases the root cause is spiritual. Dosage becomes less of an issue, particularly when using qi or physical manipulation to remove obstructions. Upon reading the Nei Jing (Wu translation), I came across reasonable confirmation of my current perspective. It states: " All things on thh earth and in the space communicate with the Yin and Yang energies. Human being is a small universe as human body has everthing that the universe has. " " The Yin and Yang energies of human being correspond with the Yin and Yang energies of the universe, and the Yin and Yang energies of all things (including men) are communicating with that of the universe. " " If the Yin and Yang energies of a man being kept in a state of equilibrium, his body will be strong and his spirit sound, if his Yan and Yang energies fail to communicate, his vital energy will be declined and finally exhausted. " So, it appears that the Nei Jing is presenting the fundamental idea that when the Yin and Yang of the spirit and physical body cannot communicate with the outside world (e.g. breath, food, etc. are obstructed), or cannot communicate internally (e.g, channels, bones, sinews, organs) are obstructed), then the vital energy cannot flow and will therefoe decline along with health. With this model, it would seem possible to overcome spiritual or physical obstructions using herbs - but I was once told that it takes a 30 years to learn to use herbs (one can start at the age of 5) and I now think I understand why. Acupuncture can also be used if the obstructions are found and the correct intent is used to remove the obstructions. Tuina, shiatsu, gua sha, and cupping (for deeper problems) seem to be very effective in finding this obstructions and removing them - though the emotional releases that often ocur can be quite substantial and difficult to cope with from both the practitioner's and patient's side. I would be very interested in your perspective, if you would care to share it with me. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " Rich " <rfinkelstein@a...> wrote: > > My view of " dosage " has changed over time - as I observed > acupuncturists and herbalists attempt to find " just the right amount " > dosage that will bring the body into the " balance " . It seemed to me to > be impossible. Through my Taiji/Qigong studies and observations of > various treatment modalities (acupuncture, herbal, tuina), I > transformed my thoughts on this matter. Rather than attempting to > force the body into " balance " by " adding " or " substracting " (this > leads to many difficult questions such as: How to add or substract - > which herbs, which points, what quantity, etc.? How much to add to add > or subtract - should I add here and substract there, etc.? How do I > know when precise balance is achieved?), I let the body find its own > natural balance by finding obstructions which prevent flow - or > communication. Obstructions can be mental, physical, or spiritual - > and I have found in most cases the root cause is spiritual. Dosage > becomes less of an issue, particularly when using qi or physical > manipulation to remove obstructions. Seems like we're doing some wordplay here, so let me clarify. Dosage is knowing when you've intervened enough to make the necessary shifts happen without creating new problems or taking over the client's process and making it your own. My view is that a master is someone who can rapidly and consistently do only that which is necessary to create the conditions for healing -- and then walk away and do the same thing on the next client. I can use the same dx, the same points, even the same technique as, say, Shudo sensei, but it's the knowing when to move on that makes a master -- and this can't be taught. Please understand, we're not talking about forcing anything. Yanagiya Sorei once said that forcing a needle is a kind of rape. I don't even really think about adding or subtracting anything. For purposes of treatment, I don't really care if the client's problem is emotional or physical or spiritual. I point out a few things that I find on their body, address them, and move on. So when you remove obstructions, how do you know when to stop? When is enough enough for that day? How much they can tolerate? If a client has 50 TP's, do you treat until they are all gone? or do you do focus on a couple of key issues and leave the rest --- that's what i'm referring to as dosage. > > Acupuncture can also be used if the obstructions are found and the > correct intent is used to remove the obstructions. Tuina, shiatsu, gua > sha, and cupping (for deeper problems) seem to be very effective in > finding this obstructions and removing them - though the emotional > releases that often ocur can be quite substantial and difficult to > cope with from both the practitioner's and patient's side. Are you able to make resolution without making things difficult? That's proper dosage. robert hayden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 Hi Robert, > Seems like we're doing some wordplay here, so let me clarify. > Please understand, we're not talking about forcing anything. > > Yanagiya Sorei once said > that forcing a needle is a kind of rape. I don't even really think about adding or subtracting anything. Then I misunderstand. It appears that you do not think in terms of tonifying or eliminating Yin or Yang - Maciocia's four strategies for every treatment modality (this is what I mean by adding or substracting). If this is so, then I would be interested in knowing what you are thinking (your strategies) when prescribing herbs or needling? > For purposes of treatment, I don't really care if the client's > problem is emotional or physical or spiritual. In terms of treatment strategies, then this would seem to imply that you are treating baed upon manifestations (symptoms). Is this true? Mark Seem, as a counter-example, seems to modify his treatment strategies based upon the whole terrain including emotion, spirit, and and physical manifestations. This would be particularly apparent in situations when changes in the physical terrain have direct impact on the emotional terrain. I have, for example seen, people get more " stubborn " (refusing to let go) during treatments which impacts the resolution of the problems on the physical terrain. The Mind does what it wants to to. >I point out a few things that I find on their body, address them, and > move on. If the " root " of the problem is the emotion or spirtual terrain and only physical problems are addressed (e.g., that what is physically manifested ), will not the problem reoccur - e.g. lower back pains, indigestion, cancer, etc.? > So when you remove obstructions, how do you know when to stop? There appear to be many indicators at each terrain level that helps determine the course of treatments. For example, pain, stiffness, are excellent indicators of obstruction. The pain will normally dissipate over time under mainipulation, gua sha, or cupping treatments. Cupping treatments will normally reveal purple, dark black or blue points at places of obstruction. Light colored red or pink marks will normally indicate good flow. Similarly the color of the skin when rubbed will normally remain white while there is still stagnation but will turn a nice color red when there is good circulation of energy and blood. Emotional and spiritual changes also appear as problems are released. The client will normally report these changes with a feeling of " well-being " as problems are resolved. However, for me this is still an area of learning which will probably take me many years. I have seen similar type of emotional and spirtual " detoxification " when other modalities are used (e.g. homeopathy) but with my limited experience, it appears to be quite unpredictable, though it may be true that others with much better skills can better progress the resolution process. > When is enough enough for that day? Usually I will work very closely with the client and allow the client to guide me. They usually are feeling the " release " and know how much they want. However, sometimes the reactions afterwards can be much more than they expect, so this is another area of unpredictability that I would like to become much more familiar with. So far those who I have talked to - even those who have practiced for many decades - have been unable to predict the path of resolution. Each individual is very different. >How much they can tolerate? If a client has 50 TP's, do you > treat until they are all gone? or do you do focus on a couple of key > issues and leave > the rest --- that's what i'm referring to as dosage. Yes, the client is very active in the process. I have seen many of my friends and acquaintences who begin treatments, allow certain problems to resolve (usually many are resolved at one time because a single obstruction usually propagates through the whole body), stop treatments and then continue at a later time. Each person must decide for themselves when enough is enough. This has certainly been the case with my immediate family. > > Are you able to make resolution without making things difficult? > That's proper dosage. > In some cases yes, in other cases no. Each person releases (emotional and physically) in their own way. For some practitioners this may be totally predictable and controlable but I have yet to run across such a practitioner. However, if there is no release of any sort, then the root problem remains and the treatment is temporary - as I have often found to be the case in innumerable situations involving my family and my friends. It is one of the issues involved with healing. Thanks for your comments. As always I find them very interesting and I welcome any other comments from any lister. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 Hi Robert, One other idea. It appears that Herring's Law of Cure (inside to outside, up to down, present to past) seems to apply very well to the treatment process. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " Rich " <rfinkelstein@a...> wrote: > > > Then I misunderstand. It appears that you do not think in terms of > tonifying or eliminating Yin or Yang - Maciocia's four strategies for > every treatment modality (this is what I mean by adding or > substracting). If this is so, then I would be interested in knowing > what you are thinking (your strategies) when prescribing herbs or > needling? for needling i was taught it's best not to think at all. just find the point and needle. don't make a big deal out of it. herbs are much more complicated. sometimes i work from herbs & tx principles, sometimes from formula patterns. > > > For purposes of treatment, I don't really care if the client's > > problem is emotional or physical or spiritual. > > In terms of treatment strategies, then this would seem to imply that > you are treating baed upon manifestations (symptoms). Is this true? no and yes. no for root tx -- based on abdominal & pulse dx (signs), yes for symptomatic tx (symptoms). i almost always do both. > Mark Seem, as a counter-example, seems to modify his treatment > strategies based upon the whole terrain including emotion, spirit, and > and physical manifestations. This would be particularly apparent in > situations when changes in the physical terrain have direct impact on > the emotional terrain. I have, for example seen, people get more > " stubborn " (refusing to let go) during treatments which impacts the > resolution of the problems on the physical terrain. The Mind does what > it wants to to. well, i've never met mark and i wouldn't presume to speak for him. all i have to work with is the physical -- i can't stick a needle in their soul. seems to me there's not really a hard line separating them anyway -- treat one, treat them all. > > If the " root " of the problem is the emotion or spirtual terrain and > only physical problems are addressed (e.g., that what is physically > manifested ), will not the problem reoccur - e.g. lower back pains, > indigestion, cancer, etc.? how do you tell if the root of the problem is in their spirit vs their emotion? since i lack psychic ability, i can only go by what presents in front of me. often i find things they are unaware of -- does that indicate spiritual problems? and if it did, how would that change my treatment? i have hands, i have needles, i have moxa, i have herbs. counseling psychology is outside my scope of practice, as is ministry. i have my spiritual beliefs, and the client has theirs. seems unethical to me to mess with that -- that is between them and their maker. i might advise somebody to seek spiritual guidance, but i'm not a spiritual guide. really, in truth, i've had waiting lists of students to be my interns and i tell them all that my practice is very boring -- i do pretty much the same thing on everybody. i think i probably have three basic treatments that i do no matter what the problem is, sort of like what Seem writes about (whether that's what he actually does, i dunno). i have maybe seven formulas i use on the majority of patients. i don't tell people i'll cure them, i don't claim any kind of mastery. i do this work because i enjoy it and people seem to get better for whatever reason. that's enough for me -- i've managed to make a living fulltime in OM for 10 years. good luck to you robert hayden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2004 Report Share Posted May 20, 2004 yes, on the quality factor i was amazed at how poor quality the herbs were in shangahi hospitals - almost unrecognisable some of them. I guess that professional wholesale herb exporters don't want to waste their efforts, or theor reputations, sending rubbish around the world. I think we get good stuff here too. charlie --- kampo36 <kampo36 wrote: > Hi Charlie, > > Chinese Medicine , > Charles Buck > <chesterclinic> wrote: > >It has been said that the chinese need > > higher doses than westerners, supposedly beacuse > they > > are somehow genetically more used to them. Some > say we > > are more like the japanese and can get by with > > slightly lower doses. I'm not sure about this, I > think > > the biggest differences are probably between > > individuals and not races. > > I've also heard the opinion expressed by a > well-known Japanese practitioner that the > Chinese export their highest quality herbs to Japan, > Taiwan, etc, so their hospitals > dispense higher dosages to compensate for poorer > quality. > > I do think individuals even of the same family may > need quite different dosages. Race > -- well, i'd kind of hoped we've moved beyond that > one by now. > > > > > The biggest problem, in my view, about the use of > > concentrated powders is the fact that when a > > manufacturer says they are 5:1 ratio, etc they are > > talking about an average across their product > range. > > I gather it may be 1:1 or 20:1 ratio in individual > > herbs. So if your conc shi gao is 1;1 (and I have > just > > today written a script using 45 g shigao) then you > may > > have to use 45g of conc shi gao for a single day!! > > > > This can make a nonsense of prescription dynamics, > our > > carefully constructed prescriptions can be > scambled by > > thes factors. Its not that i don't use powders, > but it > > tends to be a last resort. > > I do think after several years of using the extract > preparations that they are a different > medium than bulk herbs and mistakes will be made if > they are treated the same. I > would say it took me quite a bit of trial and error > before I got confident in dosages > and mixing different formulas -- but the same could > be said of anyone dispensing > bulk herbs on their own as well. I do think one > needs to keep in mind that shells, > minerals, etc are 1:1, but even so I've found in my > own personal experience that > dosing them as if they were 5:1 often yields the > desired result -- Mu Li and Long Gu > come to mind as two substances that I've found > behave in this way. > > I do think it is important to stay as much as > possible with one brand; I generally use > KPC, others like Sun Ten, Qualiherb, etc. I've > found that for whatever reason (possibly > standard manufacturing process) the granules mix > better and their results are > generally more predictable when using a single line > as opposed to mixing. > > > > --- Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto> > > wrote: > Hi Charlie, > > > > > > Thanks for joining the group. Yes, I have read > your > > > article 'Dosage is a > > > secret that is never taught' in the JCM We had > a > > > discussion on it some time > > > back. Great article. > > > > > " Dosage is a secret that is never taught " ... what a > deep truth that is. Not just for > herbs, either... for acupuncture too... for life in > general.... > > robert hayden > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any > commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame > another member or swear. > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into > this web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > > and adjust accordingly. > > If you , it takes a few days for the > messages to stop being delivered. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 What does this mean, 'eliminating' yin or yang? What is the Chinese/ pinyin term for this? Can you explain Maciocia's treatment strategies in depth? I've never heard of this before. On May 19, 2004, at 9:41 PM, Rich wrote: > Then I misunderstand. It appears that you do not think in terms of > tonifying or eliminating Yin or Yang - Maciocia's four strategies for > every treatment modality (this is what I mean by adding or > substracting). If this is so, then I would be interested in knowing > what you are thinking (your strategies) when prescribing herbs or > needling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 Maciocia's four strategies are: 1) To tonify Yang 2) To Tonify Yin 3) To eliminate excess Yang 4) To eliminate excess Yin To summarize: to bring the body into balance by tonifying and eliminating excess. As a counter strategy, I prefer: to allow the body to achieve a natural balance on its own by eliminating obstructions or alternatively to ensure that Yin and Yang are communicating both externally and internally. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " Rich " <rfinkelstein@a...> wrote: > > To summarize: to bring the body into balance by tonifying and > eliminating excess. > > As a counter strategy, I prefer: to allow the body to achieve a > natural balance on its own by eliminating obstructions eliminating obstructions = eliminating excess, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 Actually, The method you describe below is mentioned in the Zhen Jiu Jia Yi Jing/Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxabustion, called communicating essence. One uses even technique when needling to blend yin and yang and harmonize the flow of qi. I also rely on this method in clinical practice. As far as Maciocia's 'four strategies'. 'eliminating excess' makes no sense to me. Are those the terms he uses? If he is talking about xie fa, draining method, the proper translation should be to drain repletion of yin or yang qi. There is no 'elimination' of excess, because there is no material substance being discharged from the body through acupuncture. Again, this shows the importance of an author linking his use of the English language to the original Chinese and pinyin with glosses and/or footnotes so that the reader can understand what the writer is talking about. While the text may make these points clearer, in context of an e-mail post I still have no idea what you or the author is talking about. By listing pinyin with tone, or even better, the Chinese character, one can find the term and its definition by oneself. On May 20, 2004, at 8:53 PM, Rich wrote: > Maciocia's four strategies are: > > 1) To tonify Yang > 2) To Tonify Yin > 3) To eliminate excess Yang > 4) To eliminate excess Yin > > To summarize: to bring the body into balance by tonifying and > eliminating excess. > > As a counter strategy, I prefer: to allow the body to achieve a > natural balance on its own by eliminating obstructions or > alternatively to ensure that Yin and Yang are communicating both > externally and internally. > > Rich > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link > page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop > being delivered. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2004 Report Share Posted May 21, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Actually, > The method you describe below is mentioned in the Zhen Jiu Jia Yi > Jing/Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxabustion, called > communicating essence. One uses even technique when needling to blend > yin and yang and harmonize the flow of qi. I also rely on this method > in clinical practice. > in Toyohari it's called " Wa " or harmonizing technique. rh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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