Integrative Medicine v Alternative Medicine

[Guest guest]

Hi Nadia, & All,

 

Nadia wrote:

> I am totally opposed to [use of a term like] " Unified Medicine " . I

> do not want to unify with WM. Because of the dogma now prevalent

> there, I agree with, was it Z'ev? who remarked on Assimilative

> medicine. We can Complement WM, and we are an Alternative to WM. I

> am proud to be. ... I am young and still have much to learn and

> welcome any insight or response. Respectfully, Nadia

 

I dislike the term " Alternative Medicine " . IMO, there is NO practical

ALTERNATIVE to WM at this time. Those of us on " the inside "

must try to change it, with the help of colleagues in the other

disciplines.

 

I agree that WM (diagnostics, pharmacotherapy, intensive care,

obstetrics, surgery, orthopedics, chemotherapy, etc) has major

weak points. Iatrogenic illhealth and deaths are at an unacceptably

high level. WM has become a self-perpetuating industry, far beyond

reach of the world's poor. Even if it were necessary, how many poor

people can afford modern surgery? How many can even afford the

cost of a course of antibiotics in cases of acute bactreial infection?

 

I also agree that WM is largely symptom-suppressive and rarely

addresses the root cause(s). Also, it can do little for the emotional

/ psychological and spiritual aspects of health & disease.

 

HOWEVER, Nadia, with respect, and in spite of ALL its defects,

WM saves millions of lives. Without it, and its organised teaching

and delivery systems, humanity would be in a very bad state.

 

Many of us on the list advocate an Integrative or Holistic Medicine;

the Logo of my homepage is: " There is but ONE True MEDICINE " ;

see http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/

 

I dislike the term " Unified Medicine " ; IMO medicine is not, and

never will be unified in the sense that all practitioners will have the

same training background. I prefer the term " Integrative / Holistic

Medicine " . IMO, that term does NOT mean WM " taking over " or

" cherry-picking " the easiest bits of OM/TCM, AP, herbal medicine,

osteopathy, chiropractic, homeopathy, etc.

 

My dream of an Integrative Medicine is that, at some time in the

future, each specialty will be recognised as valuable in its own

right, and that students in the various disciplines will be exposed to

the basic principles of the other disciplines.

 

This infers that experts (or at least competent people) from each

separate discipline will be faculty members of ALL of the other

disciplines. These people will aquaint the students of the basics of

each discipline in order to help them to know when and where to

refer cases that do not respond properly to their chosen discipline.

 

Though some students or practitioners may opt for detailed study

of 2 or more of the individual disciplines, IMO, few will take that

option because the time required would be so long. I estimate

undergraduate full-time study to be: WM 6-10 years; CHM 3-5

years; AP 2-4 years; homeopathy 2-4 years, osteopathy 3-5 years,

etc. It would take 16-28 years for a student to qualify in all 5

disciplines! Few people would have that stamina, let alone the

finances, to pursue such prolonged studies.

 

As far as research in Integrative Medicine is concerned, IMO the

best that we can hope for is that open-minded academics and

researchers will cooperate fully in relevant clinical trials. Experts in

the discipline under research should be senior members of each

research team, and should have a veto on proceeding with the

research unless they are satisfied that it is properly planned to

reflect basic tenets of the discipline.

 

From my knowledge of the power-plays within the " establishment

professions " , I admit that the transition towards mutual respect and

equal status between the disciplines of an Integrative Medicine will

be difficult and problematic. But I encourage all of you to consider

working towards that end, even if it is an impossible dream.

 

I like to dream.

 

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

[Guest guest]

Phil and Nadia,

 

I also don't like the idea of Alternative as I don't think there is an

alternative to Chinese medicine. I don't think my cohort who I went to medical

school with at the University of Texas at San Antonio would appreciate their

allopathic Western medicine to be labeled as Alternative. However, historically

WM is in fact the alternative since it is the new kid on the block. How did we

ever manage to live as a species lo these many millennia with the standard

medicines of India and finally of China? As a genetic engineer who got through

both medical training and then basic science graduate training with the

assistance of CM, I feel a bit like a poor man's Alfred Nobel who feels I'd

better do all I can to bring stability back to science and healthcare .... which

means I'd better promote CM as much as I can.

 

With regard to the millions of lives saved by those who can afford WM, I'm

wondering how many more million could have been saved if WM were not " eclipsing "

more effective methods of healthcare. I'm at a loss to think of methods outside

of vaccination, insulin replacement for diabetics, and various reconstructive

surgeries for traumatic injury that could be thought of as the great benefit of

WM. I have to ask myself from the perspective of epidemiology has WM done more

harm than good? I'm in the same general boat with you, Phil, as I have to help

train young allied health care people heading into nursing, PT, OT, optometry

and so on. As an anatomy/physiology instructor I have to present the iconic

experiences of the Western view of physiological homeostasis (both

macroscopically and microscopically.) I already ask people to consider over the

9 months of our course together to consider such subtle comparisons as what's

the difference between physiological effects (eg endorphins/enkephalins) versus

pharmacological effects (eg. morphine) and the consequent up and down receptor

regulations. Why do my own endorphins give up receptor regulation when I engage

in adaptive experiences (running, art, dance, meditation)?

 

While WM has offered some fundamental contributions to healthcare for humans,

I'm currently of the opinion that those contributions are slight indeed ... as

compared to the array of approaches available through various CM modalities and

just as importantly as compared to the harm that accrues from WM. I have to

measure the plus side of the equation with the minus side of the equation (hey,

I'm an engineer!) Our longevity in the 1st world countries has more to do with

hygiene and easy access to nutrients than to modern (I feel alternative)

allopathic healthcare. Beyond the benefits I've listed above, I'm sensing that

WM is becoming ever more deadly as well as more market driven.

 

Okay that's just my (one guy's) view from the " inside " . Both you, Phil, and I

are no doubt exceptions to the many other views that would be espoused from the

" inside " . I greatly appreciate your even tempered presentation to this debate

and your willingness to consider yet another insider's view. I agree with your

call to " integration " in theory, but my own views are colored by the presence of

people like Dr. Ping Qi Kang who as an OMD was the chief of Shanghai's main

hospital (#1) for some 15 years. For integration to proceed, it must take place

inside the head of individuals. Dr. Kang had the capacity in both WM and CM to

direct the diverse activities of a major urban hospital of 1400 beds and cutting

edge transplant/vascular surgeries.

 

Respectfully and in Friendship,

Emmanuel Segmen

 

-

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, May 13, 2004 12:06 PM

Integrative Medicine v Alternative Medicine

 

 

Hi Nadia, & All,

 

Nadia wrote:

> I am totally opposed to [use of a term like] " Unified Medicine " . I

> do not want to unify with WM. Because of the dogma now prevalent

> there, I agree with, was it Z'ev? who remarked on Assimilative

> medicine. We can Complement WM, and we are an Alternative to WM. I

> am proud to be. ... I am young and still have much to learn and

> welcome any insight or response. Respectfully, Nadia

 

I dislike the term " Alternative Medicine " . IMO, there is NO practical

ALTERNATIVE to WM at this time. Those of us on " the inside "

must try to change it, with the help of colleagues in the other

disciplines.

 

I agree that WM (diagnostics, pharmacotherapy, intensive care,

obstetrics, surgery, orthopedics, chemotherapy, etc) has major

weak points. Iatrogenic illhealth and deaths are at an unacceptably

high level. WM has become a self-perpetuating industry, far beyond

reach of the world's poor. Even if it were necessary, how many poor

people can afford modern surgery? How many can even afford the

cost of a course of antibiotics in cases of acute bactreial infection?

 

I also agree that WM is largely symptom-suppressive and rarely

addresses the root cause(s). Also, it can do little for the emotional

/ psychological and spiritual aspects of health & disease.

 

HOWEVER, Nadia, with respect, and in spite of ALL its defects,

WM saves millions of lives. Without it, and its organised teaching

and delivery systems, humanity would be in a very bad state.

 

Many of us on the list advocate an Integrative or Holistic Medicine;

the Logo of my homepage is: " There is but ONE True MEDICINE " ;

see http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/

 

I dislike the term " Unified Medicine " ; IMO medicine is not, and

never will be unified in the sense that all practitioners will have the

same training background. I prefer the term " Integrative / Holistic

Medicine " . IMO, that term does NOT mean WM " taking over " or

" cherry-picking " the easiest bits of OM/TCM, AP, herbal medicine,

osteopathy, chiropractic, homeopathy, etc.

 

My dream of an Integrative Medicine is that, at some time in the

future, each specialty will be recognised as valuable in its own

right, and that students in the various disciplines will be exposed to

the basic principles of the other disciplines.

 

This infers that experts (or at least competent people) from each separate

discipline will be faculty members of ALL of the other disciplines. These people

will aquaint the students of the basics of each discipline in order to help them

to know when and where to refer cases that do not respond properly to their

chosen discipline.

 

Though some students or practitioners may opt for detailed study of 2 or more

of the individual disciplines, IMO, few will take that option because the time

required would be so long. I estimate undergraduate full-time study to be: WM

6-10 years; CHM 3-5 years; AP 2-4 years; homeopathy 2-4 years, osteopathy 3-5

years, etc. It would take 16-28 years for a student to qualify in all 5

disciplines! Few people would have that stamina, let alone the finances, to

pursue such prolonged studies.

 

As far as research in Integrative Medicine is concerned, IMO the best that we

can hope for is that open-minded academics and researchers will cooperate fully

in relevant clinical trials. Experts in the discipline under research should be

senior members of each research team, and should have a veto on proceeding with

the research unless they are satisfied that it is properly planned to reflect

basic tenets of the discipline.

 

From my knowledge of the power-plays within the " establishment professions " , I

admit that the transition towards mutual respect and equal status between the

disciplines of an Integrative Medicine will be difficult and problematic. But I

encourage all of you to consider working towards that end, even if it is an

impossible dream.

 

I like to dream.

 

 

 

Best regards,

Email: <

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I agree with your point of view, Emmanuel. However, I do need to agree

with Phil on one important point. Chinese medicine is a young

profession in the West, and at the present time we do not have the

facilities to deal with life-threatening or traumatic diseases that

require full-time patient care. Therefore, we still need to rely to

some degree on the present medical system despite its serious problems.

 

Everything, as you point out, is upside down. Western medicine has

become a gargantuan dinosaur rumbling across the earth, and its

influence on people's thinking puts such traditional systems as Chinese

medicine, Ayurveda and homeopathy on the defensive to 'prove' its value

according to biomedical criteria. The socioeconomic implications of

this are quite transparent, as only biomedical institutions have the

funding to undertake comprehensive studies, and as long as we practice

'unproven' medicine, i.e. not acceptable by evidence-based or

'scientific' standards, we can be dismissed outright.

 

 

On May 13, 2004, at 2:38 PM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote:

 

>

> I also don't like the idea of Alternative as I don't think there is

> an alternative to Chinese medicine.  I don't think my cohort who I

> went to medical school with at the University of Texas at San Antonio

> would appreciate their allopathic Western medicine to be labeled as

> Alternative.  However, historically WM is in fact the alternative

> since it is the new kid on the block.  How did we ever manage to live

> as a species lo these many millennia with the standard medicines of

> India and finally of China?  As a genetic engineer who got through

> both medical training and then basic science graduate training with

> the assistance of CM, I feel a bit like a poor man's Alfred Nobel who

> feels I'd better do all I can to bring stability back to science and

> healthcare .... which means I'd better promote CM as much as I can.

>

> With regard to the millions of lives saved by those who can afford

> WM, I'm wondering how many more million could have been saved if WM

> were not " eclipsing " more effective methods of healthcare.  I'm at a

> loss to think of methods outside of vaccination, insulin replacement

> for diabetics, and various reconstructive surgeries for traumatic

> injury that could be thought of as the great benefit of WM.  I have to

> ask myself from the perspective of epidemiology has WM done more harm

> than good?  I'm in the same general boat with you, Phil, as I have to

> help train young allied health care people heading into nursing, PT,

> OT, optometry and so on.  As an anatomy/physiology instructor I have

> to present the iconic experiences of the Western view of physiological

> homeostasis (both macroscopically and microscopically.)  I already ask

> people to consider over the 9 months of our course together to

> consider such subtle comparisons as what's the difference bet! ween

> physiological effects (eg endorphins/enkephalins) versus

> pharmacological effects (eg. morphine) and the consequent up and down

> receptor regulations.  Why do my own endorphins give up receptor

> regulation when I engage in adaptive experiences (running, art, dance,

> meditation)?

>

> While WM has offered some fundamental contributions to healthcare for

> humans, I'm currently of the opinion that those contributions are

> slight indeed ... as compared to the array of approaches available

> through various CM modalities and just as importantly as compared to

> the harm that accrues from WM.  I have to measure the plus side of the

> equation with the minus side of the equation (hey, I'm an engineer!) 

> Our longevity in the 1st world countries has more to do with hygiene

> and easy access to nutrients than to modern (I feel alternative)

> allopathic healthcare.  Beyond the benefits I've listed above, I'm

> sensing that WM is becoming ever more deadly as well as more market

> driven.

>

> Okay that's just my (one guy's) view from the " inside " .  Both you,

> Phil, and I are no doubt exceptions to the many other views that would

> be espoused from the " inside " .  I greatly appreciate your even

> tempered presentation to this debate and your willingness to consider

> yet another insider's view.  I agree with your call to " integration "

> in theory, but my own views are colored by the presence of people like

> Dr. Ping Qi Kang who as an OMD was the chief of Shanghai's main

> hospital (#1) for some 15 years.  For integration to proceed, it must

> take place inside the head of individuals.  Dr. Kang had the capacity

> in both WM and CM to direct the diverse activities of a major urban

> hospital of 1400 beds and cutting edge transplant/vascular surgeries. 

>

> Respectfully and in Friendship,

> Emmanuel Segmen

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

 

Your point is well taken. The physical and economic infrastructure belongs to

WM. The question is when is Bob Felt, Ken Rose, you and Simcha going to build a

hospital? Dr. Kang thinks of such things. It's part of why he wants to bring

Chinese professors to America to start a branch of Shanghai University of TCM

.... he'd like to create a TCM hospital. It would be the flip side of Kaiser

Hospital in Vallejo, CA with it's alternative clinic. I can very much envision

a TCM hospital that includes an MD and/or an MSN practitioner staff. The

American TCM colleges around the U.S. have clinics, pharmacies and professors

fully trained in acute care in most or many cases. There is simply not at this

time the economic and physical infrastructure to have the patient census access

acute care ... that would take venture capital.

 

The " young " profession of CM in America would quickly mature if the

infrastructure grew to allow the teaching professors to provide a more

comprehensive acute care. Just up Route 80 a few miles to the north of Berkeley

is a Doctors' Hospital that Tenet is about to shut down. Well .... ? The San

Francisco Bay area is a world center of Venture Capitalists ... who need to look

beyond Silicon Valley for the moment. Well, Ken? I see you driving through the

Bay Area in your white Volvo with operatic arias cranked up past the decibel

levels of the average low-rider. Perhaps you might steer that soprano down to

Palo Alto, Sunnyvale, or Mountainview and make a pitch for some new

infrastructure funding? I'd be happy to develop a local version of risk

assessments and bring on the insurance types to recruit the locales. I'd bet

Howard Moffett, previous Pres. of ACTCM and now a Haaahvard man with an MPH

would be interested ... or at least amused ... he was an administrator in a

local insurance company that tested the waters of opening up to Chinese medicine

and integrated care. He's a member of the CA Acupuncture Board and now works

for (gasp!) Kaiser Permanente as a research fellow in epidemiology.

 

It's now too late for these random thoughts to go on. More tomorrow.

 

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

 

I agree with your point of view, Emmanuel. However, I do need to agree

with Phil on one important point. Chinese medicine is a young

profession in the West, and at the present time we do not have the

facilities to deal with life-threatening or traumatic diseases that

require full-time patient care. Therefore, we still need to rely to

some degree on the present medical system despite its serious problems.

 

Everything, as you point out, is upside down. Western medicine has

become a gargantuan dinosaur rumbling across the earth, and its

influence on people's thinking puts such traditional systems as Chinese

medicine, Ayurveda and homeopathy on the defensive to 'prove' its value

according to biomedical criteria. The socioeconomic implications of

this are quite transparent, as only biomedical institutions have the

funding to undertake comprehensive studies, and as long as we practice

'unproven' medicine, i.e. not acceptable by evidence-based or

'scientific' standards, we can be dismissed outright.

 

On May 13, 2004, at 2:38 PM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote:

 

>

> I also don't like the idea of Alternative as I don't think there is

> an alternative to Chinese medicine. I don't think my cohort who I

> went to medical school with at the University of Texas at San Antonio

> would appreciate their allopathic Western medicine to be labeled as

> Alternative. However, historically WM is in fact the alternative

> since it is the new kid on the block. How did we ever manage to live

> as a species lo these many millennia with the standard medicines of

> India and finally of China? As a genetic engineer who got through

> both medical training and then basic science graduate training with

> the assistance of CM, I feel a bit like a poor man's Alfred Nobel who

> feels I'd better do all I can to bring stability back to science and

> healthcare .... which means I'd better promote CM as much as I can.

>

> With regard to the millions of lives saved by those who can afford

> WM, I'm wondering how many more million could have been saved if WM

> were not " eclipsing " more effective methods of healthcare. I'm at a

> loss to think of methods outside of vaccination, insulin replacement

> for diabetics, and various reconstructive surgeries for traumatic

> injury that could be thought of as the great benefit of WM. I have to

> ask myself from the perspective of epidemiology has WM done more harm

> than good? I'm in the same general boat with you, Phil, as I have to

> help train young allied health care people heading into nursing, PT,

> OT, optometry and so on. As an anatomy/physiology instructor I have

> to present the iconic experiences of the Western view of physiological

> homeostasis (both macroscopically and microscopically.) I already ask

> people to consider over the 9 months of our course together to

> consider such subtle comparisons as what's the difference bet! ween

> physiological effects (eg endorphins/enkephalins) versus

> pharmacological effects (eg. morphine) and the consequent up and down

> receptor regulations. Why do my own endorphins give up receptor

> regulation when I engage in adaptive experiences (running, art, dance,

> meditation)?

>

> While WM has offered some fundamental contributions to healthcare for

> humans, I'm currently of the opinion that those contributions are

> slight indeed ... as compared to the array of approaches available

> through various CM modalities and just as importantly as compared to

> the harm that accrues from WM. I have to measure the plus side of the

> equation with the minus side of the equation (hey, I'm an engineer!)

> Our longevity in the 1st world countries has more to do with hygiene

> and easy access to nutrients than to modern (I feel alternative)

> allopathic healthcare. Beyond the benefits I've listed above, I'm

> sensing that WM is becoming ever more deadly as well as more market

> driven.

>

> Okay that's just my (one guy's) view from the " inside " . Both you,

> Phil, and I are no doubt exceptions to the many other views that would

> be espoused from the " inside " . I greatly appreciate your even

> tempered presentation to this debate and your willingness to consider

> yet another insider's view. I agree with your call to " integration "

> in theory, but my own views are colored by the presence of people like

> Dr. Ping Qi Kang who as an OMD was the chief of Shanghai's main

> hospital (#1) for some 15 years. For integration to proceed, it must

> take place inside the head of individuals. Dr. Kang had the capacity

> in both WM and CM to direct the diverse activities of a major urban

> hospital of 1400 beds and cutting edge transplant/vascular surgeries.

>

> Respectfully and in Friendship,

> Emmanuel Segmen

>

 

 

[Guest guest]

I respectfully disagree. The Goliath has no interest in giving up it's

share of the pie. There is no sharing and there will be no patience from them.

Any perception of this will undoubtedly be a stall tactic while they mount

their defenses elsewhere.

This is about power and money. And they want all of it.

 

I wish we could all just get along. I wish the drug company, Goliath's

really wanted people to be well. But,,,, their consistent actions show, they

want to engender a society where symptoms are treated by drugs. And where the

fear of getting symptoms requires the prescription of drugs.

 

The drug companies, or Goliath's, are not big docile beings who strive

for world peace and harmony.

 

There is no playing fair with them.

 

I wish it were otherwise, but to ignore these " facts " will provide even

more difficult times for us and people who believe their only choice is to take

drugs.

 

Chris

 

 

 

In a message dated 5/14/2004 9:49:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

writes:

If we really want our modalities to have major national and

international impact, the little Davids must become respected

friends of Goliath. That will take much work, PR and political

manoevering over the next 50 years. A few of " our " hospitals will

make little impact on national healthcare, esp if Goliath ignore us

and refuses to refer patients to us.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Perhaps the most striking part of that comment is the suggestion that it

is planned that way.

 

As many people believe, the business model of drug based preventative and

chronic disease care takes advantage of the fact that the " cure " will create

a lot more reasons for people to take more drugs.

This is the business model of dollars against life. Most here will

acknowledge that fact, but what is the next step.

 

To bring that fact to teh main stream. Again and again. Also to offer

viable alternatives to the current drug model.

 

When people realize the reason drug companies are really making drugs,

and their life is really just a way to make money,,,, and they are given

alternatives, then the world will change fast.

 

Until then, people die at because of the drugs they thought were to help

them.

 

All for the pursuit of money.

 

Chris

 

 

In a message dated 5/14/2004 10:08:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

johnlg_2000 writes:

That's right; nothing is better for infection and

traumatic (acute) care than WM. Absolutely. But, WM

has failed terribly in dealing with chronic illnesses.

It's planned that way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Emmanuel, Z'ev, & All,

 

Emmanuel, re setting up TCM hospitals ... and venture capital: Of

course that development would be great. In the homeopathic field,

specialist homeopathic hospitals were built (and still function) in

London and Glasgow. But such hospitals are a fleabite in the total

hospital system, and make relatively little impact on the delivery of

healthcare to the UK public.

 

Medicine is such a wide area that few hospitals can provide the

total range of services and expertise needed to handle all cases.

Therefore, we have huge variation in those services, BETWEEN

HOSPITALS, even WITHIN a country.

 

For example, small rural hospitals can handle routine fractures,

A & E, etc, but cannot handle, say obstetrics, oncology,

radiotherapy, neurosurgery, or critical care. For those services,

patients are referred to the specialist hospitals.

 

Of course I would welcome even small numbers of specialist

hospitals that service one or more of the individual modalities

needed in an Integrative medical system. But, FAR MORE

IMPORTANT, IMO, is the need to foster the concept of Integrative

medicine at UNDERGRADUATE level in all medical training

disciplines.

 

Graduates in ANY one of the disciplines are more likely to refer to

ANOTHER discipline if they UNDERSTAND and RESPECT the

strengths and expertise of that system. That CANNOT happen on a

large scale unless there is a great development of the Integrative

concept across ALL of its component medical training centres.

 

Like it or not, warts and all, WM is the Goliath and we are little

Davids. If we really want our modalities to have major national and

international impact, the little Davids must become respected

friends of Goliath. That will take much work, PR and political

manoevering over the next 50 years. A few of " our " hospitals will

make little impact on national healthcare, esp if Goliath ignore us

and refuses to refer patients to us.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

[Guest guest]

That's right; nothing is better for infection and

traumatic (acute) care than WM. Absolutely. But, WM

has failed terribly in dealing with chronic illnesses.

It's planned that way.

--- < wrote:

> Hi Gabriele, & All,

>

> Gabrielle wrote:

> > Medicine is one; we can say that usually the acute

> illnesses could

> > be better treated with western medicine/surgery,

> when usually

> > chronical deseases could be better tretated with

> natural

> > treatments. Of course this is not a rule, but only

> a suggestion. As

> > a physician I'm only sure about my ignorance, so I

> must use the

> > best known (synthetic drugs, homeopathic remedies,

> herbs chinese and

> > mediterranean, acupuncture, neuraltherapy). It

> works, not always,

> > of course, but it works. No dogmas. Best regards,

> Gabriele

>

> Gabrielle, for me there is ONE DOGMA (inflexible

> law) in medicine,

> as in life: the Law of CHANGE.

>

> All things change, and change implies cycles, waxing

> and waning,

> life and death, health and disease.

>

> Medicine IS changing, and WILL CONTINUE to change. I

> hope that

> it will change towards an Integrative system that

> will be effective

> and affordable, with much less reliance on high-cost

> technology

> and dependency on allopathic and iatrogenic drugs,

> as discussed

> in my earlier mail.

>

> Each of us must work to make that change happen. We

> are up

> against very powerful commercial self-interests that

> want to prevent

> the development of an integrative medicine.

>

> Unfortunately, there are opponents to an Integrative

> medicine within

> our own ranks. Some (maybe many) believe that their

> preferred

> medical system should " stand alone " as an

> alternative or

> complementary system.

>

> I believe deeply that these well-meaning colleagues

> are completely

> wrong; that their refusal to work towards an

> Integrative medicine is

> potentially lethal to the system that they honestly

> and sincerely

> want to flourish.

Best regards,

>

> Email: <

>

> WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave.,

> Dublin 4, Ireland

> Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic:

> 0]

>

> HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

> Tel : 353-; [in the Republic:

> 0]

> WWW :

> http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SBC - Internet access at a great low price.

http://promo./sbc/

[Guest guest]

Emmanuel,

 

I am honored that you include me in your vision of an American CM

hospital; and I agree that such an institution could offer much that is

sorely lacking - not only in services to its clientele, but in

accelerating the achievement of a glorious future for health care

world-wide.

 

A hospital, however, is not precisely the project I'd prefer to jump in

on just now. A spa, maybe; or a school, or a summer camp. A place

where people learn how to not need hospitals.

 

The words 'alternative' and 'complementary', when applied to Chinese

Medicine, imply that there is another, primary modality whose market

share and mindshare are more or less uncontested. Even the word

'integrative' begs the question, as Z'ev points out, as to who is

integrating whom - and as such the word tends to mask its real meaning,

'assimilative'. When we allow the language, terminology, or frame of

reference of those who as yet do not understand us to define us, we

forfeit our right to define ourselves.

 

In essence I love the word 'integrative', because it evokes and demands

integrity. That's a much bigger challenge, and IMO a more fruitful

pursuit, than securing venture capital, 'proving' the ineffable, or

seeking the authoritative approval of narrow minds. Those would be, I

think, necessary steps toward establishing a CM hospital on American

soil in the near future. If there are those among us who possess the

patience and the pragmatism to get that done, then more power to'em.

As for me, I'm inclined to forego the current obsession with so-called

'evidence-based' medicine. I believe the smart money is on that which

is not yet evident.

 

With warm regards,

Simcha Gottlieb

 

On Friday, May 14, 2004, at 03:30 AM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote:

 

> Z'ev,

>  

> Your point is well taken.  The physical and economic infrastructure

> belongs to WM.  The question is when is Bob Felt, Ken Rose, you and

> Simcha going to build a hospital?  Dr. Kang thinks of such things. 

> It's part of why he wants to bring Chinese professors to America to

> start a branch of Shanghai University of TCM ... he'd like to create a

> TCM hospital.  It would be the flip side of Kaiser Hospital in

> Vallejo, CA with it's alternative clinic.  I can very much envision a

> TCM hospital that includes an MD and/or an MSN practitioner staff. 

> The American TCM colleges around the U.S. have clinics, pharmacies and

> professors fully trained in acute care in most or many cases.  There

> is simply not at this time the economic and physical infrastructure to

> have the patient census access acute care ... that would take venture

> capital. 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Amen. The man is right. WM is great for acute and

infectious troubles, and some MDs are good friends of

OM, but let's not kid each other- the drug cos. are a

CARTEL, and they'd rub out ALL alt med modalities if

given a chance. The men who run the CARTEL are NOT the

Girl Scouts.

JG

--- Musiclear wrote:

>

> I respectfully disagree. The Goliath has no

> interest in giving up it's

> share of the pie. There is no sharing and there

> will be no patience from them.

> Any perception of this will undoubtedly be a stall

> tactic while they mount

> their defenses elsewhere.

> This is about power and money. And they want

> all of it.

>

> I wish we could all just get along. I wish the

> drug company, Goliath's

> really wanted people to be well. But,,,, their

> consistent actions show, they

> want to engender a society where symptoms are

> treated by drugs. And where the

> fear of getting symptoms requires the prescription

> of drugs.

>

> The drug companies, or Goliath's, are not big

> docile beings who strive

> for world peace and harmony.

>

> There is no playing fair with them.

>

> I wish it were otherwise, but to ignore these

> " facts " will provide even

> more difficult times for us and people who believe

> their only choice is to take

> drugs.

>

> Chris

>

>

>

> In a message dated 5/14/2004 9:49:54 AM Eastern

> Daylight Time,

> writes:

> If we really want our modalities to have major

> national and

> international impact, the little Davids must become

> respected

> friends of Goliath. That will take much work, PR and

> political

> manoevering over the next 50 years. A few of " our "

> hospitals will

> make little impact on national healthcare, esp if

> Goliath ignore us

> and refuses to refer patients to us.

>

>

> Best regards,

>

> Email: <

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SBC - Internet access at a great low price.

http://promo./sbc/

[Guest guest]

.... One bit of good news. Maybe.

I just been asked to go and give a few lectures next year on Chinese

medicine and Acupuncture to the first year of medical school, to give them

some knowledge of the use of TCM. It will be part of their curriculum.

 

May

[Guest guest]

This is ongoing.

 

I've lectured to several groups of physicians at UC San Diego and UC

Irvine, and I'm sure lots of other people on this list have done so as

well.

 

 

On May 14, 2004, at 9:43 AM, May Lucken wrote:

 

> ... One bit of good news. Maybe.

> I just been asked to go and give a few lectures next year on Chinese

> medicine and Acupuncture to the first year of medical school, to give

> them

> some knowledge of the use of TCM. It will be part of their curriculum.

>

> May

>

>

>

> Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear,

> religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear.

>

> To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link

> page,  http://babel.altavista.com/

>

>

> and

> adjust accordingly.

>

> If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop

> being delivered.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Simcha,

Thank you for your thoughts. Perhaps someday we will help develop

these visions. If not, I hope we develop a stable profession with a

new generation of practitioners who will.

 

 

On May 14, 2004, at 7:35 AM, Simcha Gottlieb wrote:

 

> Emmanuel,

>

> I am honored that you include me in your vision of an American CM

> hospital; and I agree that such an institution could offer much that

> is

> sorely lacking - not only in services to its clientele, but in

> accelerating the achievement of a glorious future for health care

> world-wide.

>

> A hospital, however, is not precisely the project I'd prefer to jump

> in

> on just now.  A spa, maybe; or a school, or a summer camp.  A place

> where people learn how to not need hospitals.

>

> The words 'alternative' and 'complementary', when applied to Chinese

> Medicine, imply that there is another, primary modality whose market

> share and mindshare are more or less uncontested.  Even the word

> 'integrative' begs the question, as Z'ev points out, as to who is

> integrating whom - and as such the word tends to mask its real

> meaning,

> 'assimilative'.  When we allow the language, terminology, or frame of

> reference of those who as yet do not understand us to define us, we

> forfeit our right to define ourselves.

>

> In essence I love the word 'integrative', because it evokes and

> demands

> integrity.  That's a much bigger challenge, and IMO a more fruitful

> pursuit, than securing venture capital, 'proving' the ineffable, or

> seeking the authoritative approval of narrow minds.  Those would be, I

> think, necessary steps toward establishing a CM hospital on American

> soil in the near future.  If there are those among us who possess the

> patience and the pragmatism to get that done, then more power to'em. 

> As for me, I'm inclined to forego the current obsession with so-called

> 'evidence-based' medicine.  I believe the smart money is on that which

> is not yet evident.

>

> With warm regards,

> Simcha Gottlieb

>

> On Friday, May 14, 2004, at 03:30  AM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote:

>

> > Z'ev,

> >  

> > Your point is well taken.  The physical and economic infrastructure

> > belongs to WM.  The question is when is Bob Felt, Ken Rose, you and

> > Simcha going to build a hospital?  Dr. Kang thinks of such things. 

> > It's part of why he wants to bring Chinese professors to America to

> > start a branch of Shanghai University of TCM ... he'd like to

> create a

> > TCM hospital.  It would be the flip side of Kaiser Hospital in

> > Vallejo, CA with it's alternative clinic.  I can very much envision

> a

> > TCM hospital that includes an MD and/or an MSN practitioner staff. 

> > The American TCM colleges around the U.S. have clinics, pharmacies

> and

> > professors fully trained in acute care in most or many cases.  There

> > is simply not at this time the economic and physical infrastructure

> to

> > have the patient census access acute care ... that would take

> venture

> > capital. 

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Emmanual,

 

My father has worked within several hospital groups in Boston for the

past 15 years. He helped numerous hospitals restructure air flow and treatment

to improve disease control within hospitals. He did a lot of Doctor training

in regard to, believe it or not, proper tool use, and does a lot of energy

consulting.

We have had many conversations regarding hospital management. As it

turns out, most hospitals are run by Doctors. Unfortunately, this has been

disastrous in Boston.

Doctors know how to treat, but virtually none of them has sufficient

training to run organizations like this.

I am suggesting that if you are able to get your venture capitalist idea

into practice, that you make sure there are business men involved with your

Doctors in making business decisions. You may find venture capitalist to

require that anyway.

My father and I have watched different hospital groups throw away

millions year after year, because of poor business practice that MBA's would

have

known how to fix. This money had nothing to do with patient care, just so you

know.

These groups were often on the verge of collapse, and yet they were not

able to make decent business decisions. They were doctors, not business

people. This is the norm by the way. Wonder why so many hospitals are

strapped.

There is a lot more going on than limited pay from underfunded people.

I believe it is important to have good physicians making decisions for

their patients. From my conversation with my Dad, there should be trained

business people making sure the hospital stays viable.

 

Chris

 

In a message dated 5/14/2004 7:49:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

susegmen writes:

Big Pharm owns the profits. MDs are dancing at the ends of many strings.

That's partly why I am promoting the idea of venture capitalists buying defunct

hospitals and putting MDs and OMDs in charge of them. For the moment, WM is

not in charge of anything here.

 

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Phil,

As Emmanuel points out, Chinese medicine is already a 'stand-alone'

medicine, having proceeding WM by a few thousand years and apparently

doing a fine job taking care of a large population in China and other

Asian countries.

While I have no problem with interactions and interfaces between

Chinese and Western medicine, or any other medical system, it should

not be at the expense of what is unique in Chinese medicine. There is

a difference between practitioners of different forms of healing

working together and watering down the foundations of Chinese medical

theory to appeal to those who refuse to study it in depth.

 

 

On May 14, 2004, at 6:46 AM, wrote:

 

> Unfortunately, there are opponents to an Integrative medicine within

> our own ranks. Some (maybe many) believe that their preferred

> medical system should " stand alone " as an alternative or

> complementary system.

>

> I believe deeply that these well-meaning colleagues are completely

> wrong; that their refusal to work towards an Integrative medicine is

> potentially lethal to the system that they honestly and sincerely

> want to flourish.

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil,

 

I'm about to leave work here, but I wanted to post a brief impression that is a

partial response. Here in America we've entered a realm unlike anything I could

have anticipated in my 1980s version of medical training. I was always told

that " we're a team " ... which meant that I shouldn't worry about my inadequate

skills. Just refer the patient on up the ladder of expertise. Well a good

buddy of mine who owns a company just east of San Francisco (some of you may

know who I'm talking about), partially cut off his left thumb on a Friday night

on his table saw. He paid for Kaiser insurance and thus went to the local

Kaiser hospital. Bear in mind that world class microsurgery happens in San

Francisco at the Davies Hospital campus of CPMC. The surgeon on duty at that

Kaiser was not able to refer out of his system. He was not a skilled

microsurgeon and did not have an O.R. setup for saving my friend's thumb. He

amputated.

 

So, Phil, when you talk about hospital referrals where you live, that horse left

the barn in the 1990s around here. The MDs are in as bad shape as the patients,

IMHO. They've lost their profession as regards their infrastructure. The

insurance industry owns the infrastructure. Big Pharm owns the profits. MDs

are dancing at the ends of many strings. That's partly why I am promoting the

idea of venture capitalists buying defunct hospitals and putting MDs and OMDs in

charge of them. For the moment, WM is not in charge of anything here.

 

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

 

-

Chinese Medicine

Friday, May 14, 2004 6:46 AM

Re: Integrative Medicine v Alternative Medicine

 

 

Hi Emmanuel, Z'ev, & All,

 

Emmanuel, re setting up TCM hospitals ... and venture capital: Of course that

development would be great. In the homeopathic field, specialist homeopathic

hospitals were built (and still function) in London and Glasgow. But such

hospitals are a fleabite in the total hospital system, and make relatively

little impact on the delivery of healthcare to the UK public.

 

Medicine is such a wide area that few hospitals can provide the total range of

services and expertise needed to handle all cases. Therefore, we have huge

variation in those services, BETWEEN HOSPITALS, even WITHIN a country.

 

For example, small rural hospitals can handle routine fractures, A & E, etc, but

cannot handle, say obstetrics, oncology, radiotherapy, neurosurgery, or critical

care. For those services, patients are referred to the specialist hospitals.

 

Of course I would welcome even small numbers of specialist

hospitals that service one or more of the individual modalities needed in an

Integrative medical system. But, FAR MORE IMPORTANT, IMO, is the need to foster

the concept of Integrative medicine at UNDERGRADUATE level in all medical

training disciplines.

 

Graduates in ANY one of the disciplines are more likely to refer to ANOTHER

discipline if they UNDERSTAND and RESPECT the strengths and expertise of that

system. That CANNOT happen on a large scale unless there is a great development

of the Integrative concept across ALL of its component medical training centres.

 

Like it or not, warts and all, WM is the Goliath and we are little Davids. If

we really want our modalities to have major national and international impact,

the little Davids must become respected friends of Goliath. That will take much

work, PR and political manoevering over the next 50 years. A few of " our "

hospitals will make little impact on national healthcare, esp if Goliath ignore

us and refuses to refer patients to us.

 

 

Best regards,

Email:

 

 

[Guest guest]

can we have a chance to talk your father.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil!

 

Do you really want to make this metaphor? If I recall correctly, David

*killed* Goliath, I'm not sure we want to send *that* message . . . <g>

 

At 09:46 AM 5/14/2004, you wrote:<snip>

 

WM is the Goliath and we are little

>Davids.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Hi John!

 

I don't understand the " It's planned that way " part. What do you mean by that?

 

At 10:04 AM 5/14/2004, you wrote:

>That's right; nothing is better for infection and

>traumatic (acute) care than WM. Absolutely. But, WM

>has failed terribly in dealing with chronic illnesses.

>It's planned that way.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Are you kidding?

--- Pete Theisen <petet wrote:

> Hi John!

>

> I don't understand the " It's planned that way " part.

> What do you mean by that?

>

> At 10:04 AM 5/14/2004, you wrote:

> >That's right; nothing is better for infection and

> >traumatic (acute) care than WM. Absolutely. But, WM

> >has failed terribly in dealing with chronic

> illnesses.

> >It's planned that way.

>

> Regards,

>

> Pete

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SBC - Internet access at a great low price.

http://promo./sbc/

[Guest guest]

Emmanuel wrote:

 

<<<So, Phil, when you talk about hospital referrals where you live, that horse

left the barn in the 1990s around here. The MDs are in as bad shape as the

patients, IMHO. They've lost their profession as regards their infrastructure.

The insurance industry owns the infrastructure. Big Pharm owns the profits.

MDs are dancing at the ends of many strings. That's partly why I am promoting

the idea of venture capitalists buying defunct hospitals and putting MDs and

OMDs in charge of them. For the moment, WM is not in charge of anything

here.>>>

 

 

Emmanuel,

 

You've hit an important issue here. We are not solely at the mercy of

pharmaceutical companies, but of the watered-down care offered through HMO's,

and insurance company restrictions that tie even the best doctors' hands with

miles of red tape. At the top of the offender's list, IMHO, is Kaiser

Permanente, particularly in California, where money and politics often win out

over patient care.

 

A few cases in point...

 

My mother had abnormal mammograms in 1996 and again in 1999, the results of

which were concealed from her by her Docs at the Stockton Kaiser. Also in '99,

she went to the ER for COPD complications, but her Kaiser doctor authorized her

release before she was even treated (later acknowledging that he didn't know why

he released her). She was rushed back to the ER by ambulance that evening and

nearly died. A week later, when she was released from the hospital, we got her

out of Kaiser for good.

Two years later, in 2001, after experiencing increasing pain in her left breast

that radiated down her arm, she was diagnosed with breast cancer after. She had

another mammogram (this time thankfully outside of the Kaiser system), and a 2

1/2 cm mass was quickly discovered. A radical mastectomy was performed within a

matter of weeks. After managing to obtain her Kaiser records, we discovered the

abnormal radiology reports from '96 & '99, revealing " benign appearing

calcifications of the breast " that she never knew about. (And how can

calcifications appearing on a mammogram be labeled as " benign " without proper

testing?) Six months later her other breast was removed. It took seven

surgeries, two gluing procedures, and three years for the bleeding and lymph

fluid to finally cease and healing to begin. If Kaiser had informed her of the

abnormal results in 1996, or even in 1999, it is very likely the surgeries would

have never been indicated.

 

Likewise, a friend's wife was " misdiagnosed " at the same Kaiser for two years.

In frustration, they went to up to Sacramento and refused to leave until someone

ran the proper diagnostics. Within a week she was diagnosed with stage 4

(terminal) breast cancer. She died a year later, in 2001, at the age of 36.

 

My roommate's ulcerative colitis was also misdiagnosed at the same Stockon

Kaiser for nearly three years as " hemorrhoids. " After months of demanding the

proper diagnostic procedure be performed, they finally performed a sigmoidoscopy

last year. He's now been on disability seven of the last nine months. The

outrageously expensive medications are only partially working.

 

In a day and age where HMO's, insurance company restrictions and pharmaceutical

companies dominate, any alternative that could allow proper care without miles

of red tape would be greatly welcomed. When the doctors start lying to their

patients to keep their jobs, something has got to change. I hope your visions

for the future come to fruition, Emmanuel. I, for one, would certainly be on

board.

 

Kindest regards,

 

Andrea

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Emmanuel,

 

> ... a good buddy of mine ... partially cut off his left thumb ...

> went to the local Kaiser hospital.... surgeon ... was not able to

> refer out ... and did not have an O.R. setup for saving my

> friend's thumb. He amputated. ... So, Phil, when you talk about

> hospital referrals where you live, that horse left the barn in the

> 1990s around here.

 

Emmanuel, sorry about your friend. That is a grim story. It is

doubly grim that US hospitals cannot refer to specialist hospitals

when necessary. Is that widespread, or does it apply only to some

insurance-run hospitals?

 

I agree that referrals between WM and Integrative disciplines would

be as rare as hens' teeth, unless mutual respect could be built

between the different professional groups.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

[Guest guest]

Phil,

 

I think as Andrea suggested that this is mostly a problem with HMOs like Kaiser.

But I'd have to check with other surgeon friends to get the low down on this.

 

For anyone living in the San Francisco Bay area with a slightly severed

appendage, get a ride to the ER at Davies Hospital campus of CPMC at Duboce and

Castro. They'll take you, and you stand the best chance of keeping what you've

got.

 

My sense, Phil, is that under a national healthcare system referrals between

hospitals is normal. Here in the U.S., we are the last of the developed nations

to lack a national healthcare system.

 

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

 

-

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, May 16, 2004 4:25 PM

Re: Integrative Medicine v Alternative Medicine

 

 

Hi Emmanuel,

 

> ... a good buddy of mine ... partially cut off his left thumb ...

> went to the local Kaiser hospital.... surgeon ... was not able to

> refer out ... and did not have an O.R. setup for saving my

> friend's thumb. He amputated. ... So, Phil, when you talk about

> hospital referrals where you live, that horse left the barn in the

> 1990s around here.

 

Emmanuel, sorry about your friend. That is a grim story. It is

doubly grim that US hospitals cannot refer to specialist hospitals

when necessary. Is that widespread, or does it apply only to some

insurance-run hospitals?

 

I agree that referrals between WM and Integrative disciplines would

be as rare as hens' teeth, unless mutual respect could be built

between the different professional groups.

 

 

Best regards,

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

 

Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious,

spam messages,flame another member or swear.

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

delivered.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Phil-

Send that message!!! The Irish are the best!!!!

Happy Early Bloomsday!!!!! John G.

--- < wrote:

> Hi Pete

>

> > Hi Phil! Do you really want to make this metaphor?

> If I recall

> > correctly, David *killed* Goliath,

>

> Yes, but IMO, he had the Luck of the Irish behind

> him when he

> loosed the stone from its sling!

>

> > I'm not sure we want to send *that* message . . .

>

>

> On the contrary! Unless we can procure deadly

> accurate slings,

> the odds against the little Davids (AP/TCM, & the

> other disciplines

> of Integrative Medicine) succeeding against the

> Pharma-Goliaths

> are massive.

>

> Where do we get those slings? And even if we get

> them, today's

> Goliaths sleep with one eye open and have their

> guards on the

> alert. David probably could not even come within

> range to loose the

> stone today.

>

>

>

>

> Best regards,

>

> Email: <

>

> WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave.,

> Dublin 4, Ireland

> Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic:

> 0]

>

> HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

> Tel : 353-; [in the Republic:

> 0]

> WWW :

> http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SBC - Internet access at a great low price.

http://promo./sbc/

[Guest guest]

Hi Simcha,

 

Yes, I resonate strongly with what you suggest, " A place where people learn how

to not need hospitals. " This is the most glorious future indeed for CM in

America. ... especially considering the current conditions of our hospitals. I

also have always agreed with the notion you present that evidence-based medicine

is both obsessive and highly distracting from the work of CM. For this reason,

I believe that integration between CM and WM would be a rather poor marriage and

maybe even an abusive partnership. Being neighbors is perhaps already difficult

enough. I will cease and desist from such suggestions.

 

Respectfully,

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

 

 

Emmanuel,

 

I am honored that you include me in your vision of an American CM hospital;

and I agree that such an institution could offer much that is sorely lacking -

not only in services to its clientele, but in accelerating the achievement of a

glorious future for health care world-wide.

 

A hospital, however, is not precisely the project I'd prefer to jump in on

just now. A spa, maybe; or a school, or a summer camp. A place where people

learn how to not need hospitals.

 

The words 'alternative' and 'complementary', when applied to ,

imply that there is another, primary modality whose market share and mindshare

are more or less uncontested. Even the word 'integrative' begs the question, as

Z'ev points out, as to who is integrating whom - and as such the word tends to

mask its real meaning, 'assimilative'. When we allow the language, terminology,

or frame of reference of those who as yet do not understand us to define us, we

forfeit our right to define ourselves.

 

In essence I love the word 'integrative', because it evokes and demands

integrity. That's a much bigger challenge, and IMO a more fruitful pursuit, than

securing venture capital, 'proving' the ineffable, or seeking the authoritative

approval of narrow minds. Those would be, I think, necessary steps toward

establishing a CM hospital on American soil in the near future. If there are

those among us who possess the patience and the pragmatism to get that done,

then more power to'em. As for me, I'm inclined to forego the current obsession

with so-called 'evidence-based' medicine. I believe the smart money is on that

which is not yet evident.

 

With warm regards,

Simcha Gottlieb

 

On Friday, May 14, 2004, at 03:30 AM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote:

 

 

Z'ev,

 

Your point is well taken. The physical and economic infrastructure belongs

to WM. The question is when is Bob Felt, Ken Rose, you and Simcha going to

build a hospital? Dr. Kang thinks of such things. It's part of why he wants to

bring Chinese professors to America to start a branch of Shanghai University of

TCM ... he'd like to create a TCM hospital. It would be the flip side of Kaiser

Hospital in Vallejo, CA with it's alternative clinic. I can very much envision

a TCM hospital that includes an MD and/or an MSN practitioner staff. The

American TCM colleges around the U.S. have clinics, pharmacies and professors

fully trained in acute care in most or many cases. There is simply not at this

time the economic and physical infrastructure to have the patient census access

acute care ... that would take venture capital.