Development of new software for TCM Dx and Tx, esp in CHM

[Guest guest]

Hi Z'ev, & All,

 

As Todd and Z'ev said, access to powerful TCM/CHM databases

would be a quantum leap for practitioners and researchers.

 

In the 1980s, a Med School (Harvard, I think) developed diagnostic

software for physicians. Initially, many professors and consultants

were outraged - how could a machine have the knowledge or

decision-making capacity of an expert?

 

The answer is simple: if the system has accurate and fairly

complete data, the computer can pick up any pattern matches,

and score their degrees of fit. The benefits for novice doctors are

abvious. They could quickly shortlist the most probable Dxs, and

double-check their probabiliy by other means. Through regular use,

novices honed their diagnostic skills much more quickly than they

would have done without the software.

 

FREE online diagnostic software is available today for vets - see

the Cornell Consultant. It is great but NOT perfect, because some

of its data are incomplete, or ignore some causes for specific

S & Ss that non-USA vets KNOW to be valid in their countries.

 

Jim Skoien, our main teacher at the IVAS-BeVAS TCM herb

course, taught that accurate Dx (esp Pattern DIfferentiation) was

the key to effective selection of herbs or formulas.

 

I have >30 years experience of using AP in humans and animals,

but I am a relative newcomer to CHM In my experience, AP is far

easier to learn and to use than CHM.

 

IMO, there are two main types of human memory: " link memory "

and " photographic memory " . IMO, if one cannot use digital

memories, those with the strongest personal " link memories " make

better acupuncturists than herbalists. IMO, this is because good

AP does not require as much knowledge of the minutiae of

classical Pattern Differentiation as good CHM does, .

 

I know that many CHAers look down on Cookbook AP, but it works

very well for many cases, esp those with few S & Ss and in

functional rather than serious organic diseases. That said, (and

although it has not been adequately researched in clinical trials),

IMO, the more one knows of TCM & Pattern Differentiation, the

better one's results may be.

 

In contrast CHM requires enormously powerful " photographic "

memory. That is probably why I am so slow to begin using herbs;

my memory for the minutiae is simply not good enough, especially

if I forget to take my Ginkgo!

 

Many years ago I saw the potential of IT (based on powerful

Boolean search engines) and good computer databases in

advancing CAM (homeopathy, CHM, AP, etc). Computers are ideal

for complex " pattern recognition " . Indeed they are far more powerful

that most human brains at this task; they can be programmed with

data - millions of pages - that we could not read, let alone

assimulate and retrieve effectively, in a lifetime.

 

Unfortunately, computers work on the GIGO Principle - Garbage In

= Garbage Out! The data entered into the software would have to

be acceptable to an international panel of experts. Alternatively,

each data statement would need a " weighting score " (1-10), where

1=claimed but dubious, and 10=total agreement of the expert panel.

 

IMO, the ideal database for CHM would have the following

components, all updateable as new data emerge:

 

1. THESAURUS + DICTIONARY: A searchable list of all terms and

synonyms used in the database.

 

Where possible, the language in the main databases [(2) to (5),

below].should be " standardised " to the most commonly used term

for each concept.

 

2. SYNDROMES: All the main Syndromes listed in the classical

texts and in modern commentaries and clinical articles should be

included. Each essential characteristic of the Syndrome should be

listed. Occasional (non-essential) characteristics and variants

should be listed also. The listings should include S & Ss, Pulse,

Tongue and other diagnostically useful info, for example as in

Roger Wicke's (RMHI) software.

 

3. SINGLES Database: with all relevant data, including dosage,

indiactions, contraindications, etc

 

4. FORMULAS Database:with all relevant data, including dosage,

indiactions, contraindications, etc

 

5. Herb-Drug interactions and Cautions / Contraindications

Database.

 

6. A powerful DATA ENTRY Page, with extensive Drop Down

Menus to guide users through the relevant questions on present

and past S & Ss, likes & dislikes, psychological/mental profile, etc

from WM AND TCM viewpoints

 

Use of buttons and tick-boxes would obviate the need for

unnecessary typing (and spelling errors).

 

7. FInally, the software would need a powerful Boolean Search

Engine to enable data entry that might not be covered adequately

in the drop-down menus (6, above).

 

The Engine would pick up spelling errors and prompt alternatives

automatically. It would then pick up the synonyms from the

Thesaurus. Then it would display the DATA from (6) and (7) for

tweaking before doing its search of databases (2 to 5), above.

 

The HITS for Syndromes, Singles and Formulas, respectively,

would be scored (1-100), where 1 = 1% fit and 100=100% fit.

 

Development of such comprehensive software will require huge

investment of time, money, but especially, professional and

international expertise. It will require cooperation from authors and

publishing houses, some way to satisfy copyright laws and

royalties, etc. I am prepared to help others who want to progress

this. It has been a dream of mine for many years, and I have

assembled some data (much not edited properly yet) from WWW

and other sources. They could act for starters.

 

Roger Wicke has discussed his idea of having " action vectors " with

a numerical score for each, for each SINGLE and FORMULA.

Roger's data could be of great value in constructing formulas from

scratch to meet any combination of data entered into the system.

Roger, would you cooperate in a larger, more international,

development of such software? Jim Skoien has HUGE amounts of

data on his personal database. Jim, would you cooperate? Any

other takers?

 

IMO, if permission were to be granted from authors / publishers, we

have MORE than enough data available in English to develop such

software now, especially if Roger and others, who have much data

digitised already, were to cooperate.

 

We would need a panel of experts to vet the data on the way in and

to agree on the terminology and synonyms in the thesaurus /

dictionary. It would be great if the Wiseman & Ye's PD could be a

main part of the system.

 

Many TCM/CHM purists deride these ideas. IMO they need not do

so. Each user will still retain the FINAL decision on Dx and Tx. The

software is only a prompt to the user to consider possibilities that

he/she might not have considered otherwise. Also, the initial

software would NOT be immutable; it would merely be a first

attempt, a beginning in the CHM revolution. The software could be

updated regularly, as new or conflicting data emerge.

 

Maybe the task is too complex and practically impossible to do.

But if it could be done, it would put EXPERT CHM at the fingertips

of many more practitioners for a long time to come.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

[Guest guest]

HI Phil,

 

You forgot intuition in relation to memory. Something which I feel is alot

more important than 'link' and 'photographic'.

 

Like most databases, what you put in is what you get out and that's a major

draw-back with any healthcare program. Sometimes a patient won't tell you

about something either in their past or in their emotional present and here

any PC program will fall flat on its face.

 

As you know, I'm also interested in all things electronic and also believe

that a program can be built and will be built that can offer a basic level

of guidance to a TCM practitioner. It can be based upon the main complaint

with a series of drop down menus to isolate the pattern within the first

page(s). The next page(s) can deal with the modifications to tailor make the

syndrome. Subsequent pages can offer pictures of tongues and a list of

pulses to further determine the syndrome differentiation. Then the database

will come into its own and be able to utilise it's extensive files of herbs

and formulas which a normal practitioner would have trouble doing, to create

an almost 'perfect' formula. Of course variations would have to be inputted

for race, sex and age in relation to the dosage (another hot topic). But

nevertheless it is possible.

 

If it would be any good, we can only wait and see. Anyway, I would be more

than willing to participate in any future venture in creating a program such

as this.

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio

 

<traditional_Chinese_medicine>

traditional_Chinese_medicine

 

 

[]

13 May 2004 09:54

; chvm

Cc: vBMA; traditional_Chinese_Medicine

Development of new software for TCM Dx and Tx, esp in CHM

 

 

Hi Z'ev, & All,

 

As Todd and Z'ev said, access to powerful TCM/CHM databases

would be a quantum leap for practitioners and researchers.

 

In the 1980s, a Med School (Harvard, I think) developed diagnostic

software for physicians. Initially, many professors and consultants

were outraged - how could a machine have the knowledge or

decision-making capacity of an expert?

 

The answer is simple: if the system has accurate and fairly

complete data, the computer can pick up any pattern matches,

and score their degrees of fit. The benefits for novice doctors are

abvious. They could quickly shortlist the most probable Dxs, and

double-check their probabiliy by other means. Through regular use,

novices honed their diagnostic skills much more quickly than they

would have done without the software.

 

FREE online diagnostic software is available today for vets - see

the Cornell Consultant. It is great but NOT perfect, because some

of its data are incomplete, or ignore some causes for specific

S & Ss that non-USA vets KNOW to be valid in their countries.

 

Jim Skoien, our main teacher at the IVAS-BeVAS TCM herb

course, taught that accurate Dx (esp Pattern DIfferentiation) was

the key to effective selection of herbs or formulas.

 

I have >30 years experience of using AP in humans and animals,

but I am a relative newcomer to CHM In my experience, AP is far

easier to learn and to use than CHM.

 

IMO, there are two main types of human memory: " link memory "

and " photographic memory " . IMO, if one cannot use digital

memories, those with the strongest personal " link memories " make

better acupuncturists than herbalists. IMO, this is because good

AP does not require as much knowledge of the minutiae of

classical Pattern Differentiation as good CHM does, .

 

I know that many CHAers look down on Cookbook AP, but it works

very well for many cases, esp those with few S & Ss and in

functional rather than serious organic diseases. That said, (and

although it has not been adequately researched in clinical trials),

IMO, the more one knows of TCM & Pattern Differentiation, the

better one's results may be.

 

In contrast CHM requires enormously powerful " photographic "

memory. That is probably why I am so slow to begin using herbs;

my memory for the minutiae is simply not good enough, especially

if I forget to take my Ginkgo!

 

Many years ago I saw the potential of IT (based on powerful

Boolean search engines) and good computer databases in

advancing CAM (homeopathy, CHM, AP, etc). Computers are ideal

for complex " pattern recognition " . Indeed they are far more powerful

that most human brains at this task; they can be programmed with

data - millions of pages - that we could not read, let alone

assimulate and retrieve effectively, in a lifetime.

 

Unfortunately, computers work on the GIGO Principle - Garbage In

= Garbage Out! The data entered into the software would have to

be acceptable to an international panel of experts. Alternatively,

each data statement would need a " weighting score " (1-10), where

1=claimed but dubious, and 10=total agreement of the expert panel.

 

IMO, the ideal database for CHM would have the following

components, all updateable as new data emerge:

 

1. THESAURUS + DICTIONARY: A searchable list of all terms and

synonyms used in the database.

 

Where possible, the language in the main databases [(2) to (5),

below].should be " standardised " to the most commonly used term

for each concept.

 

2. SYNDROMES: All the main Syndromes listed in the classical

texts and in modern commentaries and clinical articles should be

included. Each essential characteristic of the Syndrome should be

listed. Occasional (non-essential) characteristics and variants

should be listed also. The listings should include S & Ss, Pulse,

Tongue and other diagnostically useful info, for example as in

Roger Wicke's (RMHI) software.

 

3. SINGLES Database: with all relevant data, including dosage,

indiactions, contraindications, etc

 

4. FORMULAS Database:with all relevant data, including dosage,

indiactions, contraindications, etc

 

5. Herb-Drug interactions and Cautions / Contraindications

Database.

 

6. A powerful DATA ENTRY Page, with extensive Drop Down

Menus to guide users through the relevant questions on present

and past S & Ss, likes & dislikes, psychological/mental profile, etc

from WM AND TCM viewpoints

 

Use of buttons and tick-boxes would obviate the need for

unnecessary typing (and spelling errors).

 

7. FInally, the software would need a powerful Boolean Search

Engine to enable data entry that might not be covered adequately

in the drop-down menus (6, above).

 

The Engine would pick up spelling errors and prompt alternatives

automatically. It would then pick up the synonyms from the

Thesaurus. Then it would display the DATA from (6) and (7) for

tweaking before doing its search of databases (2 to 5), above.

 

The HITS for Syndromes, Singles and Formulas, respectively,

would be scored (1-100), where 1 = 1% fit and 100=100% fit.

 

Development of such comprehensive software will require huge

investment of time, money, but especially, professional and

international expertise. It will require cooperation from authors and

publishing houses, some way to satisfy copyright laws and

royalties, etc. I am prepared to help others who want to progress

this. It has been a dream of mine for many years, and I have

assembled some data (much not edited properly yet) from WWW

and other sources. They could act for starters.

 

Roger Wicke has discussed his idea of having " action vectors " with

a numerical score for each, for each SINGLE and FORMULA.

Roger's data could be of great value in constructing formulas from

scratch to meet any combination of data entered into the system.

Roger, would you cooperate in a larger, more international,

development of such software? Jim Skoien has HUGE amounts of

data on his personal database. Jim, would you cooperate? Any

other takers?

 

IMO, if permission were to be granted from authors / publishers, we

have MORE than enough data available in English to develop such

software now, especially if Roger and others, who have much data

digitised already, were to cooperate.

 

We would need a panel of experts to vet the data on the way in and

to agree on the terminology and synonyms in the thesaurus /

dictionary. It would be great if the Wiseman & Ye's PD could be a

main part of the system.

 

Many TCM/CHM purists deride these ideas. IMO they need not do

so. Each user will still retain the FINAL decision on Dx and Tx. The

software is only a prompt to the user to consider possibilities that

he/she might not have considered otherwise. Also, the initial

software would NOT be immutable; it would merely be a first

attempt, a beginning in the CHM revolution. The software could be

updated regularly, as new or conflicting data emerge.

 

Maybe the task is too complex and practically impossible to do.

But if it could be done, it would put EXPERT CHM at the fingertips

of many more practitioners for a long time to come.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Phil,

 

That is certainly an adventurous undertaking and IMO one that will be

undertaken by someone in the future. Especially since it's one of the

few things that have not yet been integrated into the existing

acupuncture programs. I think it would be easier to implement for

chinese herbs because they tend to get used more uniformly. An analog

attempt at this has been made by henry lu in his book " Chinese

Natural Cures " . It's very simplistic compared to what you're

proposing here but he assigns different weights to symptoms which add

to give an overall score to each syndrom. Then you can look at the

top few which emerge and the relevant formulas. The single herbs &

formulas from bensky are all on cd at this point and maybe a deal

could be worked out with them to tap in to their database. I've got

some software development experience and would be willing to help out

some with this.

 

--brian

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil!

 

I have been working on a system like this for nine years. A group of

programmers is helping me, but it is very complex and requires either a lot

of time or a lot of money. I have a lot of data entered from my TCM school

notes for the content. A lot of people have helped, but some of those who

could have helped refused to do so unless they were paid a lot of money

up-front. Perhaps you or some others on the list would like to contribute?

 

I have an organizational structure to support this effort called the Sun

Health Foundation, Inc. The Sun Health Foundation, Inc. is organized in the

State of Florida (USA) and registered with the IRS as a 501 © (3)

non-profit, money contributions are tax deductible, but time and work are

not deductible. The Sun Health Foundation, Inc. has a 6 person board of

directors consisting of two computer techs, a retiree patient, an auto

repair facility receptionist, a nursing home program specialist and myself

as chairperson. No one has contributed any money to this for a long time,

but we don't actively solicit donations.

 

If you could talk those people you mentioned into contributing their

databases or permission for us to convert their work to databases, we would

be able to include these in our project. If anyone wants to contribute

money, well, if we could raise $50 grand we could probably finish the Beta

version in a year. There is one programmer I could hire to work full time

if I could pay her. She has been contributing a lot of her spare time as it

is, but she has to give most of her time to another job to make a living.

 

Once the project was completed I wanted to distribute it as follows: A free

site-license with whatever support I can manage over email to every TCM

school; a student version as a free download (no support); a beginning

practice version for say, $50 (pay per call support); and a full

professional version for maybe $1500 (pay per call support) or maybe an

annual subscription option for the full professional version. The full

version would support more practice management features, keep patient

records on line, this sort of thing. All practice versions would contribute

case studies to a central database - the full case of each patient without

personal id information - and this data would serve as the basis for

ongoing TCM empirical research.

 

I hope there would be enough money and data coming in eventually to support

the research that would once-and-for-all validate TCM.

 

At 04:53 AM 5/13/2004, you wrote:

>Hi Z'ev, & All,

>

>As Todd and Z'ev said, access to powerful TCM/CHM databases

>would be a quantum leap for practitioners and researchers.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio!

 

ROFL! I know you didn't mean this as a joke, but you have just explained

the disproportion of women and, uh, " alternative lifestyle guys " in TCM

practice!

 

At 07:01 AM 5/13/2004, you wrote:

>HI Phil,

>

>You forgot intuition

 

Regards,

 

Pete