RE: Point Location and selection of the best points to use

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio, Brian & All,

 

Erwin Westermayer DVM (died circa 1994), one of my first mentors

in AP, was uncanny in 6th-sense diagnosis. He often did this (with

incredible accuracy) while several kilometers from the subject.

 

Erwin would visualise the subject, and " fit " himself inside it: " My

eyes are his eyes ... my ears are his ears, ... my elbow is his

elbow... " etc. Then he would scan his own body systematically for

sensations that reflected those in the sujbect, be it a human,

horse, calf, etc. Then he would go to the farm and examine the

subject conventionally.

 

To find the best points for Tx, he would run his hand about 1-2cm

above the skin. He had " programmed himself " to feel an itch or

tickle in the palm of his hand as he passed over the relevant

point(s). I saw many times that the animal buckled when he

pressed the sensed point.

 

I am not able to find points in that way ( " programmed tickle/itch " ),

but occasionally I use a pendulum to divine them if I cannot locate

them in more conventional ways.

 

My clinical results of needling points divined by pendulum are

mixed - often great but sometimes disappointing.

 

Colleague Are Thoresen (Norway) also uses Pulse Dx to confirm

the best Channel(s) and/or point?(s) for Tx. However, Are uses his

OWN pulse, or the pulse of a surrogate, rather than the subject's

pulse. I have believed for years that Pulse Dx is mainly subjective

(6th sense) Dx, rather than objective (physical) reality that can be

confirmed by several other pulse-takers.

 

There are many ways to the top of the mountain. The proof that one

has succeeded is the verifiable clinical result!

 

Best regards,

Phil

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Brian wrote:

> Attilio, Generally, I think feeling the points is important. After

> a while I'll perceive a point to have certain characteristics. For

> isntance, some points seem to be in a hole (like SP6), others

> always seem to have a knot in them (like SI11). ... a couple of

> methods ... are useful to determine point location. (10 Use the

> pulse to determine point selection/location (only works if the

> patient is supine). While feeling the pulse touch around the point

> you have in mind to use. If the pulse doesn't change you're not on

> the point. If the pulse changes you're on the point. You have to

> decide whether the pulse feels better or worse while you're on the

> point. If the pulse is better, use the point, otherwise try a

> different one. For instance, using this method I find KI03 is

> closer to the medial malleolus than the textbook definition, and it

> will bring up the KI pulse if it was weak to begin with. And if I

> needle the textbook definition it doesn't always affect the pulse.

> But it always does if I use the position that is confirmed by the

> pulse. Using this method you atleast won't have to guess at which

> one of the many KI06 variations will be good for a particular

> patient. (2) Use qigong to find the location. Relax, center

> yourself, use your favorite abdominal breathing technique, and take

> a 1.5 inch metal needle and hold it an inch or so above and

> pointing towards the point. Then see where the needle is drawn to.

> If you quiet yourself the location and direction of insertion will

> emerge. You (and the patient, but you can't always trust what the

> patient says) should get different sensations when you're on a

> point and when you're off the point, and that's how you know. It

> gets easier the more you practice qigong. But that implies it's not

> necessarily a fast track method. (3) And then there's using AhShi

> points. I'm pretty sure an AhShi point is a point that's open at

> that moment, but there can be alot of AhShi points in a small area,

> not all of which may be relevant to the current treatment. So I

> generally think of this as less reliable although I certainly use

> it, especially for treating TPs. brian

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

[Guest guest]

Brian,

 

What you wrote concerning using the patients pulse for

point prescription is very interesting. What can this

literature be found? I am not familiar with this

concept.

 

David

 

 

 

--- < wrote:

> Hi Attilio, Brian & All,

>

> Erwin Westermayer DVM (died circa 1994), one of my

> first mentors

> in AP, was uncanny in 6th-sense diagnosis. He often

> did this (with

> incredible accuracy) while several kilometers from

> the subject.

>

> Erwin would visualise the subject, and " fit " himself

> inside it: " My

> eyes are his eyes ... my ears are his ears, ... my

> elbow is his

> elbow... " etc. Then he would scan his own body

> systematically for

> sensations that reflected those in the sujbect, be

> it a human,

> horse, calf, etc. Then he would go to the farm and

> examine the

> subject conventionally.

>

> To find the best points for Tx, he would run his

> hand about 1-2cm

> above the skin. He had " programmed himself " to feel

> an itch or

> tickle in the palm of his hand as he passed over the

> relevant

> point(s). I saw many times that the animal buckled

> when he

> pressed the sensed point.

>

> I am not able to find points in that way

> ( " programmed tickle/itch " ),

> but occasionally I use a pendulum to divine them if

> I cannot locate

> them in more conventional ways.

>

> My clinical results of needling points divined by

> pendulum are

> mixed - often great but sometimes disappointing.

>

> Colleague Are Thoresen (Norway) also uses Pulse Dx

> to confirm

> the best Channel(s) and/or point?(s) for Tx.

> However, Are uses his

> OWN pulse, or the pulse of a surrogate, rather than

> the subject's

> pulse. I have believed for years that Pulse Dx is

> mainly subjective

> (6th sense) Dx, rather than objective (physical)

> reality that can be

> confirmed by several other pulse-takers.

>

> There are many ways to the top of the mountain. The

> proof that one

> has succeeded is the verifiable clinical result!

>

> Best regards,

> Phil

>

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>

> Brian wrote:

> > Attilio, Generally, I think feeling the points is

> important. After

> > a while I'll perceive a point to have certain

> characteristics. For

> > isntance, some points seem to be in a hole (like

> SP6), others

> > always seem to have a knot in them (like SI11).

> ... a couple of

> > methods ... are useful to determine point

> location. (10 Use the

> > pulse to determine point selection/location (only

> works if the

> > patient is supine). While feeling the pulse touch

> around the point

> > you have in mind to use. If the pulse doesn't

> change you're not on

> > the point. If the pulse changes you're on the

> point. You have to

> > decide whether the pulse feels better or worse

> while you're on the

> > point. If the pulse is better, use the point,

> otherwise try a

> > different one. For instance, using this method I

> find KI03 is

> > closer to the medial malleolus than the textbook

> definition, and it

> > will bring up the KI pulse if it was weak to begin

> with. And if I

> > needle the textbook definition it doesn't always

> affect the pulse.

> > But it always does if I use the position that is

> confirmed by the

> > pulse. Using this method you atleast won't have to

> guess at which

> > one of the many KI06 variations will be good for a

> particular

> > patient. (2) Use qigong to find the location.

> Relax, center

> > yourself, use your favorite abdominal breathing

> technique, and take

> > a 1.5 inch metal needle and hold it an inch or so

> above and

> > pointing towards the point. Then see where the

> needle is drawn to.

> > If you quiet yourself the location and direction

> of insertion will

> > emerge. You (and the patient, but you can't always

> trust what the

> > patient says) should get different sensations when

> you're on a

> > point and when you're off the point, and that's

> how you know. It

> > gets easier the more you practice qigong. But that

> implies it's not

> > necessarily a fast track method. (3) And then

> there's using AhShi

> > points. I'm pretty sure an AhShi point is a point

> that's open at

> > that moment, but there can be alot of AhShi points

> in a small area,

> > not all of which may be relevant to the current

> treatment. So I

> > generally think of this as less reliable although

> I certainly use

> > it, especially for treating TPs. brian

>

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

> Best regards,

>

> Email: <

>

> WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave.,

> Dublin 4, Ireland

> Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic:

> 0]

>

> HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

> Tel : 353-; [in the Republic:

> 0]

> WWW :

> http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2'

http://movies./showtimes/movie?mid=1808405861

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

> There are many ways to the top of the mountain. The proof that one

> has succeeded is the verifiable clinical result!

>

> Best regards,

> Phil

>

 

Yes, I agree. My own path is through qigong and taiji. Taiji has two

aspects - one is the forms through which I have learned to feel qi

flow within and outside my body - and how to merge the two into one

large spiraling wave of energy. It feels like a swirling wave within

an ocean. Push hands taught me how to connect the waves of two people

in order to create one - and by doing this I learn to " listen " better

and understand the qi energies. Qigong is a way of quieting myself to

feel the waves of qi that surround me. But I do many other things -

such as photography, singing, tennis to create general " awareness " . I

think each person finds their own way.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

David,

 

I haven't seen any written material on it, although I suspicion a

description of it is buried in a sentence in the classics somewhere I

haven't gotten around to reading yet. There were two instructors who

did their acupuncture treatments based on a pulse feedback system at

the school I went to - southwest acupuncture college in santa fe, new

mexico. Jeff Meyer and Roddey Cohn. Roddey uses the touching the

point method while jeff intuits the points and treats them and re-

confirms with the pulse the points he's selected. He also takes the

carotid as well as radial pulses. They both come from very different

backgrounds but describe the sensations they look for in the pulse

very similarly so I tended to believe them.

 

Jeff studied with the kototama inochi institute which is no longer

around. Roddey credits Dr. Richard Tan with alot of what she does,

although I've never seen anyone else who's studied with him use this

technique. Jeff Nagel teaches the qigong non-insertion method. Ted

Hall also went to the inochi institute and I believe teaches at yo

san college in santa monica. The toyohari school someone described

earlier sounds similar as well.

 

The basic underlying theory that you have to buy into is that if the

pulse is balanced, the body is in a state best able to heal itself.

And if it's not balanced there's a point or points or channel in the

body that need to be addressed. If touching a point brings the pulse

into better balance then treat it. Initially treat 1,2, or 3 points

based upon what seems to stand out the most from the pulse and then

leave the patient a few minutes to see how they respond. When you

take the pulse again add the next layer of points to the treatment.

There are many different strategies you can use for helping to come

up with possible treatment points (since no one has time to test all

of them) from simply using a point on the same channel as the

corresponding pulse position, to using horary clock relationships or

mother-child and control sequence cycles, or channel intersection

points to try and address more and use less needles. Or you can just

trace along the channel with your finger and feel what happens. You

can use this as a root treatment and add symptom points as well.

 

It's pretty cool to feel a fast pulse and to touch a point that

immediately slows it down. Or something that takes the feisty edge

off. It's nice to get some method of feedback that you're on some

right track. Most of the time it seems to correlate with the patient

feeling better. Sometimes it doesn't but at this point I attribute

that to my lack of experience and that I wasn't able to come up with

a more effective point combination.

 

--brian

 

Chinese Medicine , David Razo

<ozar14> wrote:

> Brian,

>

> What you wrote concerning using the patients pulse for

> point prescription is very interesting. What can this

> literature be found? I am not familiar with this

> concept.

>

> David

>

>

[Guest guest]

HI all,

 

I realize that a large proprortion of the group is based in america

and out of my sphere of influence (unless I can find someone to

arrange for me to lecture over there) Yet this part of what I

practice and teach in Meridian Qi Acupuncture.

 

When a patient comes to us we may be effective in a number of ways

often from our theoretical framework we treat points that are

beneficial and the person responds well. Just as often we get mixed

results and we don't quite know why and occasionally we are just

plain wrong and we don't even know it at the time.

 

With Meridian Qi Acupuncture I have developed a theoretical

framework that gives consistent results and that when we do

something that appears to make no sense can , with a little thought,

be explained and made sense of within the Theory.

 

More than the Theory though, important though it is, I show and

teach how one may use Qi energy in specific ways plus other

physiological changes to find out which meridians are disturbed

within a patient. This same energetic process can then be used to

identify individual points within a given meridian.

 

The results are often consistently profound and been human when I

make a mistake not only do I know I have made a mistake but which

direction to go onto rectify and go back on track.

 

Sorry to keep going on about my way of treating ( I hate appearing

arrogant)but I now posses a System that is truly elegant, effective

and relatively easy to master and that a large number of you, would

in my opinion, greatly benefit from.

 

Salvador

www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

 

 

_______________________

 

> --- <@e...> wrote:

 

> > To find the best points for Tx, he would run his

> > hand about 1-2cm

> > above the skin. He had " programmed himself " to feel

> > an itch or

> > tickle in the palm of his hand as he passed over the

> > relevant

> > point(s). I saw many times that the animal buckled

> > when he

> > pressed the sensed point.

> >

> > I am not able to find points in that way

> > ( " programmed tickle/itch " ),

> > but occasionally I use a pendulum to divine them if

> > I cannot locate

> > them in more conventional ways.

> >

> > My clinical results of needling points divined by

> > pendulum are

> > mixed - often great but sometimes disappointing.

> >

> > Colleague Are Thoresen (Norway) also uses Pulse Dx

> > to confirm

> > the best Channel(s) and/or point?(s) for Tx.

> > However, Are uses his

> > OWN pulse, or the pulse of a surrogate, rather than

> > the subject's

> > pulse. I have believed for years that Pulse Dx is

> > mainly subjective

> > (6th sense) Dx, rather than objective (physical)

> > reality that can be

> > confirmed by several other pulse-takers.

>/movie?mid=1808405861

[Guest guest]

Hi Salvador!

 

Wonderful, I take my hat off to you and all that. However, although I and

perhaps others have asked you more than once to describe your system on the

list in greater detail, all of a sudden you get a little quiet whenever we

ask that.

 

Is your elegant system a secret?

 

I realize that you offer a chart for seven UK pounds the last time I looked

at your website. I emailed you as to how much seven pounds was US and you

never even replied to that? I might even buy your chart from you if it

fully explains the system and if I can afford seven pounds, when I finally

find out how much that is. How much for the chart in USD and does the chart

fully explain the system?

 

At 06:04 AM 5/13/2004, you wrote:<snip> I now posses a System that is

truly elegant, effective

>and relatively easy to master and that a large number of you, would

>in my opinion, greatly benefit from.

>

>Salvador

>www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete,

 

More often than not I have given a link to my web site and the other

day I gave a link to details of my forthcoming workshop. I feel that

The information I already provide on my web site is more than enough

for people to gain some insight as to what my system offers

 

So why don't I share all to the group? is my system a secret? Not

at all.

I have gone through a process of idealism and very little confidence

in myself after all how can I challenge perceived wisdom, how dare I

compare myself to the likes of J.R. Worsley. and other giants of the

acupuncture world? After all, I am still so ignorant in so many

areas.

 

If something is truly valuable then it is worth paying for. There

was a time when I wanted to give it to the acupuncture community. (

I still do) But I have realized my idealism was based on a lack of

self worth.

 

 

Now, I realize, that what I offer is a means of making an average

acupuncturist into an excellent acupuncturist within a short period

of time. Some of what I offer has to be shown and there is no short

cut to clinical observation. I do not want want what I offer to be

confused or cheapened by lack of understanding based on insuficient

information.

 

This is why I will not sell the charts any more but will give them

away as part of training with me. (will update my website shortly).

 

 

I am not even charging exorbitant amounts of money to teach what is

in effect a new symplified and extremely effective set of diagnostic

tools and theoretical understanding.

 

I read what I write and I sound over the top. The fact is that I

get people that have been treated by other acupuncturists and

herbalists in the past and I do for them what others have not. And

listen to this one Over this past few weeks I have diagnosed a horse

and a dog for a couple of patients by accurately assesing likely

symptoms knowing nothing of the animals apart from date of birth! my

system appears to be applicable to animals too. surprising but not

really.

 

I also read what many have written on this forum and I get dismayed

by what I perceive to be innapropriate understanding. I truly do

have something to offer.

 

I was never an academic so I am not so good at writting my views and

I expect I don't come across as someone to be taken seriously.

 

At the end of the day If I can increase your skill level to the

point that you will be that much more effective and earn that much

more money why should I give my years of experience and faily unique

insights away?

 

I have in fact shared a lot info on this forum in the past but I

have a sense that I am not really taken seriously . Of course Pete

you are far away in America so why wet your appetite for something

you may never get?

 

I'd like to think that at some stage someone will invite me over to

lecture.

 

salvador

www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

 

 

_________________________

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen

<petet@a...> wrote:

> Hi Salvador!

>

> Wonderful, I take my hat off to you and all that. However,

although I and

> perhaps others have asked you more than once to describe your

system on the

> list in greater detail, all of a sudden you get a little quiet

whenever we

> ask that.

>

> Is your elegant system a secret?

>

> I realize that you offer a chart for seven UK pounds the last time

I looked

> at your website. I emailed you as to how much seven pounds was US

and you

> never even replied to that? I might even buy your chart from you

if it

> fully explains the system and if I can afford seven pounds, when I

finally

> find out how much that is. How much for the chart in USD and does

the chart

> fully explain the system?

>

> At 06:04 AM 5/13/2004, you wrote:<snip> I now posses a System

that is

> truly elegant, effective

> >and relatively easy to master and that a large number of you,

would

> >in my opinion, greatly benefit from.

> >

> >Salvador

> >www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

>

> Regards,

>

> Pete

[Guest guest]

How would us poor souls here in the states learn your method. Have you

considered doing a video or dvd tape with notes to purchase.

Thanks....

 

salvador_march <salvador_march wrote:

Hi Pete,

 

More often than not I have given a link to my web site and the other

day I gave a link to details of my forthcoming workshop. I feel that

The information I already provide on my web site is more than enough

for people to gain some insight as to what my system offers

 

So why don't I share all to the group? is my system a secret? Not

at all.

I have gone through a process of idealism and very little confidence

in myself after all how can I challenge perceived wisdom, how dare I

compare myself to the likes of J.R. Worsley. and other giants of the

acupuncture world? After all, I am still so ignorant in so many

areas.

 

If something is truly valuable then it is worth paying for. There

was a time when I wanted to give it to the acupuncture community. (

I still do) But I have realized my idealism was based on a lack of

self worth.

 

 

Now, I realize, that what I offer is a means of making an average

acupuncturist into an excellent acupuncturist within a short period

of time. Some of what I offer has to be shown and there is no short

cut to clinical observation. I do not want want what I offer to be

confused or cheapened by lack of understanding based on insuficient

information.

 

This is why I will not sell the charts any more but will give them

away as part of training with me. (will update my website shortly).

 

 

I am not even charging exorbitant amounts of money to teach what is

in effect a new symplified and extremely effective set of diagnostic

tools and theoretical understanding.

 

I read what I write and I sound over the top. The fact is that I

get people that have been treated by other acupuncturists and

herbalists in the past and I do for them what others have not. And

listen to this one Over this past few weeks I have diagnosed a horse

and a dog for a couple of patients by accurately assesing likely

symptoms knowing nothing of the animals apart from date of birth! my

system appears to be applicable to animals too. surprising but not

really.

 

I also read what many have written on this forum and I get dismayed

by what I perceive to be innapropriate understanding. I truly do

have something to offer.

 

I was never an academic so I am not so good at writting my views and

I expect I don't come across as someone to be taken seriously.

 

At the end of the day If I can increase your skill level to the

point that you will be that much more effective and earn that much

more money why should I give my years of experience and faily unique

insights away?

 

I have in fact shared a lot info on this forum in the past but I

have a sense that I am not really taken seriously . Of course Pete

you are far away in America so why wet your appetite for something

you may never get?

 

I'd like to think that at some stage someone will invite me over to

lecture.

 

salvador

www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

 

 

_________________________

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen

<petet@a...> wrote:

> Hi Salvador!

>

> Wonderful, I take my hat off to you and all that. However,

although I and

> perhaps others have asked you more than once to describe your

system on the

> list in greater detail, all of a sudden you get a little quiet

whenever we

> ask that.

>

> Is your elegant system a secret?

>

> I realize that you offer a chart for seven UK pounds the last time

I looked

> at your website. I emailed you as to how much seven pounds was US

and you

> never even replied to that? I might even buy your chart from you

if it

> fully explains the system and if I can afford seven pounds, when I

finally

> find out how much that is. How much for the chart in USD and does

the chart

> fully explain the system?

>

> At 06:04 AM 5/13/2004, you wrote:<snip> I now posses a System

that is

> truly elegant, effective

> >and relatively easy to master and that a large number of you,

would

> >in my opinion, greatly benefit from.

> >

> >Salvador

> >www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

>

> Regards,

>

> Pete

 

 

 

Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam

messages,flame another member or swear.

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

delivered.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Salvador!

 

When will you be touring the states?

 

At 02:25 PM 5/13/2004, you wrote:<snip>

 

>I'd like to think that at some stage someone will invite me over to

>lecture.

>

>salvador

>www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Hi Salvador!

 

When will you be touring the states?

 

At 02:25 PM 5/13/2004, you wrote:<snip>

 

>I'd like to think that at some stage someone will invite me over to

>lecture.

>

>salvador

>www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

 

Regards,

 

Pete

 

 

 

Hi Pete,

 

At the moment I see myself like a little cinder that is gently

starting to get blown into a flame by the people that have

experienced my workshops and had acupuncture from me. I don't know

how long it will take for a spark of that flame to blow over to

america if ever. It is out of my hands. I'll tour the states when it

is arranged for me.

 

salvador

www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Salvador!

 

The large organizations are your market, then. AAOM and the like.

 

At 03:02 AM 5/14/2004, you wrote:

 

I'll tour the states when it

>is arranged for me.

>

>salvador

>www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " salvador_march "

<salvador_march@h...> wrote:

> I don't know

> how long it will take for a spark of that flame to blow over to

> america if ever. It is out of my hands. I'll tour the states when it

> is arranged for me.

>

 

G_d helps them what helps themselves.

 

My advice, FWIW: write and publish a book, and/or hire someone to do some

marketing for you. America is all about marketing.

 

Example: NAET