A sincere proposal that may change all our lives.

[Guest guest]

There have been suggestions that we integrate with the western way.

 

But I ask, why would we want to integrate with a business franchise whose

own journal suggests that they are the third killer in the states?

 

As far as chronic disease goes, the " Western " approach kills people. We

do not. Clear and simple. There is something fundamentally wrong with

wanting to integrate ourselves with these people.

 

Let us stand apart, as healers. Let us talk about the wonders of the

western way of treating trauma. Let us also talk about the death and pain of

their attempt at controlling chronic disease.

 

When a rational mind looks at the option of treating their personal

chronic illness with philosophies stemming from an illness manufacturing

business,

or our way of reestablishing balance, they will choose the balanced approach.

 

The problem we are up against is that most of us see no other alternative

than to join with a group of unknowing killers, because they have such a

strong hold on the medical treatment market.

 

The drug companies have brain washed our society into thinking what they

do is science and proven to cure. Unfortunately that is far from the truth.

Western illness control is a business that creates new illness to treat with

more drugs that create more illness, ect. ect..

 

Fortunately the statistics are against western medicine as a treatment

for chronic illness and science is now saying their models are causing more harm

than good AND that there are cheap effective remedies for most of the illness

out there.

 

We need to educate the world about this fact so the public can make a

reasonable choice.

 

If we try to embrace the current system, we are done for. The best

approach for true freedom in our society is to tear down the veil of illusion

created by the drug companies, and educate those that will hear of our viable

alternative.

 

We have the option of helping to change the fundamental approach to

treating illness in the world. Let's take a stand for health and freedom and

teach

people the truth. The current model is a farce that kills. We offer a

system of health that preserves the quality and longevity of life.

 

Those simple truths will change the tide of health care.

 

Sincerely,

 

Chris

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

You have lumped all of Western Medicine together. I will partially agree that

pharmaceutical companies are big business and think more about the bottom line

than improving life.

 

However, most of the physicians that I have met either professionally or

personally

are working extremely hard and doing the best that they can to help people

improve

their health and their lives. In every profession, including ours, there are

people who

are trying to make a buck, feed their ego or just passing time.

 

I think that one reason to try and work with people in Western Medicine is to

educate

them to recommend TCM earlier rather than later, before pills or surgery. If

that is all

we accomplish, we will have done a lot.

 

Deb

[Guest guest]

I agree with Deb. It's no good attacking the whole field of WM. There not

all bad, money grabbing power freaks. There's a few of those in the TCM

field, that's for sure. It's all swings and roundabouts.

 

We need to have a balanced outlook towards our position with WM. We need to

educate them aswell as the public and politicians as to what we can do

aswell as improve our understanding of WM so we can argue our case for more

inclusion in primary healthcare. As a start some of us can lobby our

politicians, others can write to mainstream magazines and newspapers

pointing out what we can treat whilst others can advise MDs of our role in

the healthcare system other than lower back pain!

 

To summarise we need to fight aswell as work with those in WM, like a push

and pull system of workmanship until we're accepted.

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio

 

<traditional_Chinese_medicine>

traditional_Chinese_medicine

 

 

meridians_acupuncture [meridians_acupuncture]

12 May 2004 05:26

Chinese Medicine

Re: A sincere proposal that may change all our lives.

 

 

You have lumped all of Western Medicine together. I will partially agree

that

pharmaceutical companies are big business and think more about the bottom

line

than improving life.

 

However, most of the physicians that I have met either professionally or

personally

are working extremely hard and doing the best that they can to help people

improve

their health and their lives. In every profession, including ours, there are

people who

are trying to make a buck, feed their ego or just passing time.

 

I think that one reason to try and work with people in Western Medicine is

to educate

them to recommend TCM earlier rather than later, before pills or surgery. If

that is all

we accomplish, we will have done a lot.

 

Deb

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

very well said.

 

thank you,

maria k.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

All you say is correct, and the economic connections among hospitals, insurance

providers, and surgical/pharmacuetical houses and the media, so clouds the issue

of whether people are well served by this failed muderous system, that the good

we do outside of their protocols never makes much of a sound beyond the thanks

of the people whose lives are made more livable. peace, fran

 

Musiclear wrote: There have been suggestions that we integrate with

the western way.

 

But I ask, why would we want to integrate with a business franchise whose

own journal suggests that they are the third killer in the states?

 

As far as chronic disease goes, the " Western " approach kills people. We

do not. Clear and simple. There is something fundamentally wrong with

wanting to integrate ourselves with these people.

 

Let us stand apart, as healers. Let us talk about the wonders of the

western way of treating trauma. Let us also talk about the death and pain of

their attempt at controlling chronic disease.

 

When a rational mind looks at the option of treating their personal

chronic illness with philosophies stemming from an illness manufacturing

business,

or our way of reestablishing balance, they will choose the balanced approach.

 

The problem we are up against is that most of us see no other alternative

than to join with a group of unknowing killers, because they have such a

strong hold on the medical treatment market.

 

The drug companies have brain washed our society into thinking what they

do is science and proven to cure. Unfortunately that is far from the truth.

Western illness control is a business that creates new illness to treat with

more drugs that create more illness, ect. ect..

 

Fortunately the statistics are against western medicine as a treatment

for chronic illness and science is now saying their models are causing more harm

than good AND that there are cheap effective remedies for most of the illness

out there.

 

We need to educate the world about this fact so the public can make a

reasonable choice.

 

If we try to embrace the current system, we are done for. The best

approach for true freedom in our society is to tear down the veil of illusion

created by the drug companies, and educate those that will hear of our viable

alternative.

 

We have the option of helping to change the fundamental approach to

treating illness in the world. Let's take a stand for health and freedom and

teach

people the truth. The current model is a farce that kills. We offer a

system of health that preserves the quality and longevity of life.

 

Those simple truths will change the tide of health care.

 

Sincerely,

 

Chris

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

There are certainly two heads to the western medicine dilemma.

We can point to ill equipped holistic practitioners not finding true

pathologies. It is a shame. There are people who think all you need is wheat

juice to cure what ails ya.

 

 

I don't think anyone is condemning legitimate western testing. That is

one of the western strengths. I know when I was in school, it was pounded into

our heads the idea of referring out for tests when it looked like they might

be relevant.

 

On the flip side to your example, a friend of mine has premature baby

with neurological problems. The drugs the Docs mandated were killing her. It

wasn't until law suits were suggested that the parents could take the baby home

remove the drugs and care for the baby.

Her condition improved immediately and continues to improve. She was on

the edge of death while on the drugs. She has not had any episodes since.

You can go on with stories on either side all day long.

 

A point is that in our current drug model of health care, the choice of

the people is limited. Personal responsibility is being taken away and the

choices are getting even more limited because of the influence of the drug

companies in the political arena.

 

There will be few of us who could diagnose brain tumors using pulse. We

get to refer out to western technology. It is incredible what can be found.

 

The point I am trying to make is DRUG therapy for symptom control is a

failed approach.

 

Please do not confuse this with viable technologies.

 

The policy of using drugs to treat chronic illness and now the use of

drugs to " prevent " future illness is murderous. The drug companies know this.

We know this and soon the rest of the world will know this.

 

We cannot lump all of western medicine into one category. Doing so, only

confuses the issue.

 

Drugs, prescribed correctly, taken correctly, are the third killer in the

US. The numbers are similar in the rest of the world. According to JAMA.

 

This does not mean we should scorn the MRI or other valuable tests. It

means we need to promote a very real alternative to the drug model and fight to

have the truth known.

 

Chris

 

 

 

In a message dated 5/14/2004 9:01:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

kampo36 writes:

Chinese Medicine , mystir

<ykcul_ritsym>

wrote:

>> whether people are well served by this failed muderous system,

 

This kind of talk really frosts my a**. i'm now holding my son who would be

long

dead if not for WM. my mother who wasted a year on homeopathy had to have a

lung

removed d/t pulmonary adenocarcinoma. i won't even start on my brother's hx,

with

Von Hippel - Lindau who tried a year and a half with a chiropractor for

chronic

headaches before an internist with real diagnostic skills figured out he had

multiple

brain tumors, renal cancer, etc. He is alive 12 years later and his then

infant son has

had a father all that time because of caring talented surgeons, physicians,

nurses, pt,

etc, etc.

 

I am no proponent of integration; i worked for years in a busy rheumatology

practice

with physicians and i quit because i thought i could render much better care

in a more

private setting. i think integration (at least the way it has come about in

the US) is the

wrong path. But it is pure hubris to demand equal scope of practice with

MD's. Wait

til people start dying under our care and the malpractice hammer really comes

down.

As has been stated here much more eloquently before, characterizing WM as a

malevolent force is a pretty lame offense and a non-existent defense when it

comes

to our regulatory status.

 

I could go on but i'll quit here.

 

robert hayden

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Now after all my mouthing off, a really hard question to answer, because

it is to me, as complex as the problem.

 

In a word, yes. And in another word, it depends.

 

Given the fact that we are trained to ask the right questions, and given

the fact that we will treat closer to the root of these complex chronic

internal cases, a large number symptoms would only need some education,

lifestyle

changes, nutrition or herbs or Acumoxa.

 

Of course, part of what I am suggesting is that a large part of our

societies problems stems from false information and the resulting drug taking to

cure what wasn't broken.

 

The fact that we could treat the large majority of cases naturally, as

the education of this spreads, means there will be far fewer deaths from drugs,

and people would be much more healthy in general. Because of this, there will

be far fewer complex internal cases.

 

This does not mean that I think all cases should be treated our way.

Drugs clearly have a role in health car. Just not the indiscriminate money

above

all else way they have been prescribed.

 

Sure there will be people who will die with the best holistic care, who

may have been saved with drug therapy, but in the end, I guarantee, to the

degree that our society shifts from drug based medicine to a natural based

medicine, is the degree you will see death decline and health improve.

 

Many of teh illnesses in the world are caused by concepts that were

promoted to be healthy by the powers at large. Science is now proving many of

the

long held holistic concepts to hold far reaching health benefits.

 

By initiating preventive holistic care, instead of preventative drug

care, many of the people who would become sick will not. The need for

additional

drugs for side effects becomes nonexistent. The additional deaths and illness

from over drug use falls away.

 

So, to answer you question, there are professionals within our groups who

are quite capable of dealing with very complex internal problems. There are

those of us who are not.

 

I personally would rather have the option of choosing my therapy, rather

than have the drug therapy forced on me as the only option. To me a very big

part ofl life has to do with personal choice. Not a mandate from a profit

oriented drug company.

 

If we show, that inexpensive holistic therapies are better at specific

symptom control, and have a wide range of other health benefits, we can

potentially have these added to Gov. programs. I think that although the

Governments

have been swayed by corporate donations, there is still great influence the

people have in changing the direction of legislation.

 

As education of healther more cost effective therapies progresses, more

and more people will choose wisely. The control of the drug companies will go

away.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 5/14/2004 10:46:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

kampo36 writes:

 

Chris, in your honest opinion, do you think our profession in the US is

adequately

prepared to successfully manage complex chronic internal cases with acumoxa

and

herbal medicine?

 

robert

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , mystir <ykcul_ritsym>

wrote:

>> whether people are well served by this failed muderous system,

 

This kind of talk really frosts my a**. i'm now holding my son who would be

long

dead if not for WM. my mother who wasted a year on homeopathy had to have a

lung

removed d/t pulmonary adenocarcinoma. i won't even start on my brother's hx,

with

Von Hippel - Lindau who tried a year and a half with a chiropractor for chronic

headaches before an internist with real diagnostic skills figured out he had

multiple

brain tumors, renal cancer, etc. He is alive 12 years later and his then infant

son has

had a father all that time because of caring talented surgeons, physicians,

nurses, pt,

etc, etc.

 

I am no proponent of integration; i worked for years in a busy rheumatology

practice

with physicians and i quit because i thought i could render much better care in

a more

private setting. i think integration (at least the way it has come about in the

US) is the

wrong path. But it is pure hubris to demand equal scope of practice with MD's.

Wait

til people start dying under our care and the malpractice hammer really comes

down.

As has been stated here much more eloquently before, characterizing WM as a

malevolent force is a pretty lame offense and a non-existent defense when it

comes

to our regulatory status.

 

I could go on but i'll quit here.

 

robert hayden

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , Musiclear@a... wrote:

>> We cannot lump all of western medicine into one category. Doing so, only

> confuses the issue.

 

thank you for clarifying this -- clarity is important in this issue.

 

i can't argue with a lot of what you've written, certainly.

 

>

> Drugs, prescribed correctly, taken correctly, are the third killer in the

> US. The numbers are similar in the rest of the world. According to JAMA.

>

> This does not mean we should scorn the MRI or other valuable tests. It

> means we need to promote a very real alternative to the drug model and fight

to

> have the truth known.

 

Chris, in your honest opinion, do you think our profession in the US is

adequately

prepared to successfully manage complex chronic internal cases with acumoxa and

herbal medicine?

 

robert

>

>

>

> In a message dated 5/14/2004 9:01:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> kampo36 writes:

> Chinese Medicine , mystir

> <ykcul_ritsym>

> wrote:

> >> whether people are well served by this failed muderous system,

>

> This kind of talk really frosts my a**. i'm now holding my son who would be

> long

> dead if not for WM. my mother who wasted a year on homeopathy had to have a

> lung

> removed d/t pulmonary adenocarcinoma. i won't even start on my brother's hx,

> with

> Von Hippel - Lindau who tried a year and a half with a chiropractor for

> chronic

> headaches before an internist with real diagnostic skills figured out he had

> multiple

> brain tumors, renal cancer, etc. He is alive 12 years later and his then

> infant son has

> had a father all that time because of caring talented surgeons, physicians,

> nurses, pt,

> etc, etc.

>

> I am no proponent of integration; i worked for years in a busy rheumatology

> practice

> with physicians and i quit because i thought i could render much better care

> in a more

> private setting. i think integration (at least the way it has come about in

> the US) is the

> wrong path. But it is pure hubris to demand equal scope of practice with

> MD's. Wait

> til people start dying under our care and the malpractice hammer really comes

> down.

> As has been stated here much more eloquently before, characterizing WM as a

> malevolent force is a pretty lame offense and a non-existent defense when it

> comes

> to our regulatory status.

>

> I could go on but i'll quit here.

>

> robert hayden

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Your last comment makes me chuckle as you are absolutely right. As a

society we are our own enemy. In many ways, ignorance is bliss, because the way

it is now, people don't need to be responsible for making health care choices.

 

People have a tendency to want to believe that a little purple pill, and

a green on, and an orange one and one for sex too, is all we need to live

healthy and happily. But things are changing as information flows into self help

books.

 

Luckily, reasonable diet advise is flowing freely these days and people are

taking heed. More and more people are paying attention to the quality of

fats, protein and carb ratios, added sugars and healthy meats ;-))

 

One of the key ingredients to making a healthy society are the science

based options that we are not told about.

 

Things similar to by taking proline and lycene and some mineral

ascorbates, we can reverse heart disease, and reduce the tendency for blood

clots and

improve skin tone, and improve adrenal function and reduce the chances of

alzhimers, and sleep better, and lower inflamation and reduce allergies and

solve a

myriad of other potential problems at the same time.

 

AND IT COSTS LESS THAN DEADLY DRUGS!!!

 

What we are told is that taking cholesterol lowering drugs is good for

us. But they don't say that there are negative complications including the

lowering of a vital kreb cycle component that is vital for heart function,

CoQ10.

 

We are also told that allergies are caused by nasty things in nature and

we have to suppress out immune system to fight them. But, if all you wanted

to do is reduce histamine release, you could take a number of bioflavinoids

that not only relive your symptom, but actually improve your metal clarity,

stabilize eye circulation and lower the incident of cataracts and macular

degeneration and a host of other potential problems.

 

Given the backing of science and free choice what would you choose?

 

I have a dream, that we because the municipalities want to save money and

because the people would really rather be healthy, that the recommendation

for heart disease starts with the above protocol and watch buildup dissolve

away. For irregular heart beat we check into magnesium and other electrolytes

along with CoQ10 first, then possibly drugs.

 

For a host of problems, a natural approach is suggested FIRST.

 

If people knew that by taking lipitor they may actually be increasing

their chances of death by a circulatory incident, and they were given a truly

healthy alternative,,, I think people may actually go for it. Then tell their

friends how much better they feel as other symptoms seem to disappear.

 

The issue of freedom of information is key. Right now in the market

place, the only ones who have the authority to dispense information about what

to

take for symptoms, are the only ones who honestly don't want you to be well.

The drug companies.

 

That is inherently wrong.

 

 

Chris

 

 

 

In a message dated 5/14/2004 12:10:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

kampo36 writes:

 

But really, isn't there already a lot of information on disease prevention

that doesn't

get heeded by the general public? How many people are getting gastric bypass

(or

even acupuncture) when it's been common knowledge that reduced caloric intake

and

increased physical activity are the keys to successful weight loss? I see

information on

diet, exercise, green tea, what-have-you on the news virtually every night.

Yes it's in

between Levitra commercials but people are exposed to it. I think you are

right,

education is what's needed, but the reality that i'm seeing is that the

public is

conditioned to want a quick and simple solution to a long-time complex

problem.

 

We're up against greed, no question, but we're also up against human nature.

We

have met the enemy and he is us.

 

robert

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi All, & Chris, & Robert,

 

In response to Chris's rejection of a " failed murderous system " ,

Robert wrote:

> i'm now holding my son who would be long dead if not for WM. my

> mother who wasted a year on homeopathy had to have a lung removed

> d/t pulmonary adenocarcinoma. i won't even start on my brother's

> hx, with Von Hippel - Lindau who tried a year and a half with a

> chiropractor for chronic headaches before an internist with real

> diagnostic skills figured out he had multiple brain tumors, renal

> cancer, etc. He is alive 12 years later and his then infant son

> has had a father all that time because of caring talented

> surgeons, physicians, nurses, pt, etc, etc. I am no proponent of

> integration; i worked for years in a busy rheumatology practice

> with physicians and i quit because i thought i could render much

> better care in a more private setting. i think integration (at

> least the way it has come about in the US) is the wrong path. But

> it is pure hubris to demand equal scope of practice with MD's.

> Wait til people start dying under our care and the malpractice

> hammer really comes down. As has been stated here much more

> eloquently before, characterizing WM as a malevolent force is a

> pretty lame offense and a non-existent defense when it comes to

> our regulatory status. robert hayden

 

I agree 100% with most of this. But my concept of Integrative

medicine is NOT the miserable facade that exists today. It is

based on true RESPECT for the skills and methods of colleagues

in the different modalities, + REAL undergraduate exposure to the

methods, strengths and weaknesses of all the available disciplines.

 

I also agree that such development will NOT be easy; it may not

even be attainable. But we MUST try, otherwise Goliath will bury us

all in regulations, red-tape, law suits, etc.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , Musiclear@a... wrote:

>

> Now after all my mouthing off, a really hard question to answer, because

> it is to me, as complex as the problem.

>

> In a word, yes. And in another word, it depends.

 

I'll answer my own question here, too... IMO there is no question acumoxa and

herbs

can treat/manage a large number of chronic conditions. After years of teaching

and

practice I am reluctant to say that most practitioners are adequately prepared

to treat

them. I believe the population is largely overmedicated but I can't quite say

we are

ready as a profession to step in and take over their care.

 

>

> Given the fact that we are trained to ask the right questions, and given

> the fact that we will treat closer to the root of these complex chronic

> internal cases, a large number symptoms would only need some education,

lifestyle

> changes, nutrition or herbs or Acumoxa.

 

But really, isn't there already a lot of information on disease prevention that

doesn't

get heeded by the general public? How many people are getting gastric bypass

(or

even acupuncture) when it's been common knowledge that reduced caloric intake

and

increased physical activity are the keys to successful weight loss? I see

information on

diet, exercise, green tea, what-have-you on the news virtually every night. Yes

it's in

between Levitra commercials but people are exposed to it. I think you are

right,

education is what's needed, but the reality that i'm seeing is that the public

is

conditioned to want a quick and simple solution to a long-time complex problem.

 

We're up against greed, no question, but we're also up against human nature. We

have met the enemy and he is us.

 

robert

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " "

<@e...> wrote:

> Hi All, & Chris, & Robert,

>

> In response to Chris's rejection of a " failed murderous system " ,

> Robert wrote:

>>I am no proponent of

> > integration; i worked for years in a busy rheumatology practice

> > with physicians and i quit because i thought i could render much

> > better care in a more private setting. i think integration (at

> > least the way it has come about in the US) is the wrong path.

 

>

> I agree 100% with most of this. But my concept of Integrative

> medicine is NOT the miserable facade that exists today. It is

> based on true RESPECT for the skills and methods of colleagues

> in the different modalities, + REAL undergraduate exposure to the

> methods, strengths and weaknesses of all the available disciplines.

>

 

your vision is a beautiful one! At my old job, " integration " meant the patient

would

come to see me right after the cortisone injections. Right now it's all about

marketing

because the consumers want some complementary therapies... but seldom is the

protocol " try acumoxa first " for conditions which may respond well to it.

Usually it's

" try acumoxa if nothing else is working " or " throw it in with everything else " .

 

First, of course, we need to figure out which cases are most appropriate for any

given

modality and then present some kind of convincing evidence for the people who

write

the checks. That in and of itself may take years...

 

robert hayden

[Guest guest]

Phil, Robert, Emmanuel, Attilio,

 

Many of the posts, perhaps including my own, have been a bit

strident lately. As often happens with e-mail we are thinking and/or

dreaming out loud. So I am going to restate my position.

 

In the West, we are still in the early years of our profession.

This precludes in-patient or traumatic care, and many other things as

well. Clearly there are issues that are better addressed by modern

medicine than CM. The reasons for this are complex.

 

Many illnesses are the result of lifestyle and radical changes in

the environment, such as pollution, industrial development, and

degradation of the food supply. Most patients have absorbed the credo

that the body is a machine that needs a refit when it breaks down, so

personal responsibility for health is not a given for many people.

Extremes of lifestyle, poor diet, and abuses of medications, both

prescription and recreational sometimes need more extreme interventions

than Chinese medicine can provide.

Also, there are clearly areas, that Robert points out so well, where

Western medicine is necessary.

 

We clearly are not ready to be put on the same mantle with Western

medicine. We need to take a long view, i.e. generations, to establish

ourselves in the West, not just socio-economically, but in terms of our

knowledge base. We need to greatly enrich our knowledge base by

learning medical Chinese, developing computer databases of herbal

medicine, acupuncture and case histories, and translation. As Paul

Unschuld points out, a true profession owns its own knowledge.

 

Chinese medicine is as much a way of life as a professional

medicine, and we are also encouraged by our tradition to educate our

patients in ways to safeguard and maintain health. We have not taken

enough advantage of this calling card, as true preventative medicine

could greatly relieve the burden on the present health care system.

 

There are two levels where integration happens. One is top down,

from the structures and hierarchies of the present health care

monolith, where we will be assimilated. This doesn't mean we cannot

work in mainstream health care facilities. It simply means we need to

watch our backs.

Integration also happens at the grassroots level, through

cooperation of health care professionals in different fields. Not only

biomedical, but homeopathic, Ayurvedic, chiropractic, naturopathic,

etc. Building unselfish, personalized, broad-based health care groups

from the ground up.

 

My feeling is that integration into mainstream health care is the

child bride syndrome. We are still too green, without a strong

knowledge base to support us. Let's develop long-term vision and

plans, and walk softly forwards.

 

 

 

On May 14, 2004, at 5:58 AM, kampo36 wrote:

 

> Chinese Medicine , mystir

> <ykcul_ritsym>

> wrote:

> >> whether people are well served by this failed muderous system,

>

> This kind of talk really frosts my a**.  i'm now holding my son who

> would be long

> dead if not for WM.  my mother who wasted a year on homeopathy had to

> have a lung

> removed d/t pulmonary adenocarcinoma.  i won't even start on my

> brother's hx, with

> Von Hippel - Lindau who tried a year and a half with a chiropractor

> for chronic

> headaches before an internist with real diagnostic skills figured out

> he had multiple

> brain tumors, renal cancer, etc.  He is alive 12 years later and his

> then infant son has

> had a father all that time because of caring talented surgeons,

> physicians, nurses, pt,

> etc, etc.

>

> I am no proponent of integration; i worked for years in a busy

> rheumatology practice

> with physicians and i quit because i thought i could render much

> better care in a more

> private setting.  i think integration (at least the way it has come

> about in the US) is the

> wrong path.  But it is pure hubris to demand equal scope of practice

> with MD's.  Wait

> til people start dying under our care and the malpractice hammer

> really comes down. 

> As has been stated here much more eloquently before, characterizing

> WM as a

> malevolent force is a pretty lame offense and a non-existent defense

> when it comes

> to our regulatory status.

>

> I could go on but i'll quit here.

>

> robert hayden

>

>

>

> Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear,

> religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear.

>

> To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link

> page,  http://babel.altavista.com/

>

>

> and

> adjust accordingly.

>

> If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop

> being delivered.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Amen to that, Robert...

 

 

> We're up against greed, no question, but we're also up against

human nature. We

> have met the enemy and he is us.

>

> robert

[Guest guest]

Hi Robert!

 

I personally prefer to work *with* the western docs, I always recommend

that my patients select one MD to be part of their health team, and a

chiropractor also in addition to seeing me.

 

At 08:58 AM 5/14/2004, you wrote:

>Chinese Medicine , mystir

><ykcul_ritsym>

>wrote:

> >> whether people are well served by this failed muderous system,

>

>This kind of talk really frosts my a**. i'm now holding my son who would

>be long

>dead if not for WM.

 

Regards,

 

Pete