Herniated disc surgery causing scarring pressing on nerve

May 10, 2004

I have a patient that had a herniated disc at L4-L5 and then had

surgery and now he's in worse shape---the docs say that it is from

scar tissue pressing on the nerve and there's nothing they can do.

His pain is across the back but worse on the left (I guess it was

herniated to the left) and then he has FRONT thigh pain and is numb

from the knee down on his left leg.

I've tried a number of different acupuncture treatments and none have

helped at all---and one made him much worse for a few days.

So, I'm wondering about herbs. I questioned whether the pain really

was from actual scar tissue, or if that was how they explained it for

lack of a better answer. However, he said that he was shown an x-ray

showing a lot of scarring. I am getting the impression that needling

anywhere near the area makes him worse---perhaps because there is so

much scarring.

Anyone have any ideas for an herbal formula for deep scarring? Any

acupuncture ideas would be welcome too, but I've tried a lot and

haven't gotten any results. Yunnan Paiyao plasters don't even help

him.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks, Laura

May 11, 2004

Hi Laura,

You describe a typical scenario of the reductionist aproach of WM the

assumption that pain is only a mechanical issue.

your patient probably as a result of long term stress has distorted,

compressed his structure to the point that he has herniated the lumbars. Yet

that is the end product not the cause. The operation, and I have come across

this many times, will not deal with the compresses ,distorted muscles,

facia etc., To blame the lack of success on the scar tissue is common.

As an acupuncturist, to be efective, you need to stay focussed on cause.

This means accurate diagnosis, otherwise what happens is that the patient 's

stress will be compunded by the indiscrimiante acupuncture and you will then

up up saying things like

>>>I've tried a number of different acupuncture treatments and none have

>helped at all---and one made him much worse for a few days<<<

If you focus on the scarring then you are been seduced by WM narrow outlook.

As you say, one of your treatments made him much worse. OK, then discover

which meridians are responsible and you'll make him much better.

salvador

www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

>I have a patient that had a herniated disc at L4-L5 and then had

>surgery and now he's in worse shape---the docs say that it is from

>scar tissue pressing on the nerve and there's nothing they can do.

>His pain is across the back but worse on the left (I guess it was

>herniated to the left) and then he has FRONT thigh pain and is numb

>from the knee down on his left leg.

>

>I've tried a number of different acupuncture treatments and none have

>helped at all---and one made him much worse for a few days.

>

>So, I'm wondering about herbs. I questioned whether the pain really

>was from actual scar tissue, or if that was how they explained it for

>lack of a better answer. However, he said that he was shown an x-ray

>showing a lot of scarring. I am getting the impression that needling

>anywhere near the area makes him worse---perhaps because there is so

>much scarring.

>

>Anyone have any ideas for an herbal formula for deep scarring? Any

>acupuncture ideas would be welcome too, but I've tried a lot and

>haven't gotten any results. Yunnan Paiyao plasters don't even help

>him.

>

>Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!

>

>Thanks, Laura

>

>Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious,

>spam messages,flame another member or swear.

>

>http://babel.altavista.com/

>

> and adjust

>accordingly.

>

>If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

>delivered.

>

May 11, 2004

Hi Salvador,

Those are some really great points that I need more experience and

confidence to get through my thick head. So much of the time I am

able to get improvement with pain after the first visit. Therefore I

think that I tend to expect that, and therefore I set up my patients

to expect it and be disappointed when it doesn't happen. I often

wonder whether to stick with my original diagnosis/plan or to try

something new at that point. I know that in many cases things will

not improve unless I continue along the same path for awhile. But

when they are not improving its very hard to keep the faith! Any

advice on how to think about this would be helpful. Unfortunately,

in this case, the patient came 3 or 4 times and quit and decided to

try massage. Perhaps if I'd been able to communicate hope with him

better he would have stuck around, but its challenging as a new

practitioner when you aren't seeing results with someone.

Thanks for your response!

Laura

Chinese Medicine , " salvador march "

<salvador_march@h...> wrote:

> Hi Laura,

>

> You describe a typical scenario of the reductionist aproach of WM

the

> assumption that pain is only a mechanical issue.

>

> your patient probably as a result of long term stress has

distorted,

> compressed his structure to the point that he has herniated the

lumbars. Yet

> that is the end product not the cause. The operation, and I have

come across

> this many times, will not deal with the compresses ,distorted

muscles,

> facia etc., To blame the lack of success on the scar tissue is

common.

>

> As an acupuncturist, to be efective, you need to stay focussed on

cause.

> This means accurate diagnosis, otherwise what happens is that the

patient 's

> stress will be compunded by the indiscrimiante acupuncture and you

will then

> up up saying things like

>

> >>>I've tried a number of different acupuncture treatments and none

have

> >helped at all---and one made him much worse for a few days<<<

>

> If you focus on the scarring then you are been seduced by WM narrow

outlook.

> As you say, one of your treatments made him much worse. OK, then

discover

> which meridians are responsible and you'll make him much better.

>

> salvador

> www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

>

> >I have a patient that had a herniated disc at L4-L5 and then had

> >surgery and now he's in worse shape---the docs say that it is from

> >scar tissue pressing on the nerve and there's nothing they can do.

> >His pain is across the back but worse on the left (I guess it was

> >herniated to the left) and then he has FRONT thigh pain and is numb

> >from the knee down on his left leg.

> >

> >I've tried a number of different acupuncture treatments and none

have

> >helped at all---and one made him much worse for a few days.

> >

> >So, I'm wondering about herbs. I questioned whether the pain

really

> >was from actual scar tissue, or if that was how they explained it

for

> >lack of a better answer. However, he said that he was shown an x-

ray

> >showing a lot of scarring. I am getting the impression that

needling

> >anywhere near the area makes him worse---perhaps because there is

so

> >much scarring.

> >

> >Anyone have any ideas for an herbal formula for deep scarring? Any

> >acupuncture ideas would be welcome too, but I've tried a lot and

> >haven't gotten any results. Yunnan Paiyao plasters don't even help

> >him.

> >

> >Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!

> >

> >Thanks, Laura

> >

> >Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear,

religious,

> >spam messages,flame another member or swear.

> >

> >To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link

page,

> >http://babel.altavista.com/

> >

and adjust

> >accordingly.

> >

> >If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop

being

> >delivered.

> >

May 12, 2004

Hi Laura,

Before you abandon AP in this case, what AP points did you use?

Did you try LI04 + GB34 + LV03 + BL60?

Did you identify any especially sensitive points in or near the scar?

Did you try lasering the scar, or TENS?

Best regards,

Phil

> I have a patient that had a herniated disc at L4-L5 and then had

> surgery and now he's in worse shape---the docs say that it is from

> scar tissue pressing on the nerve and there's nothing they can do.

> His pain is across the back but worse on the left (I guess it was

> herniated to the left) and then he has FRONT thigh pain and is numb

> from the knee down on his left leg. I've tried a number of

> different AP treatments and none have helped at all---and one made

> him much worse for a few days. So, I'm wondering about herbs. I

> questioned whether the pain really was from actual scar tissue, or

> if that was how they explained it for lack of a better answer.

> However, he said that he was shown an x-ray showing a lot of

> scarring. I am getting the impression that needling anywhere near

> the area makes him worse---perhaps because there is so much

> scarring. Anyone have any ideas for an herbal formula for deep

> scarring? Any AP ideas would be welcome too, but I've tried a lot

> and haven't gotten any results. Yunnan Paiyao plasters don't even

> help him. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Laura

Best regards,

Email: <

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

May 13, 2004

In addition to Phil's excellent suggestions, I'd offer Tuina to this

patient as well. Tuina has some excellent protocols for lower back

pain, lumbar disk protrusion, and chronic lumbar pain caused by

scarring, strain, bone spurs, and other causes. In cases such as

you're describing dealing with possible sciatia-caused numbness,

Tuina can help with circulation and sensation, as well as relive pain

and loosen adhesions.

Best Wishes,

Kathy Kerr

AOMA

Chinese Medicine , " "

<@e...> wrote:

> Hi Laura,

>

> Before you abandon AP in this case, what AP points did you use?

> Did you try LI04 + GB34 + LV03 + BL60?

>

> Did you identify any especially sensitive points in or near the

scar?

> Did you try lasering the scar, or TENS?

>

> Best regards,

> Phil

>

> WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4,

Ireland

> Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

>

> HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

> Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

> WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

May 15, 2004

Laura:

> I have a patient that had a herniated disc at L4-L5 and then had

> surgery and now he's in worse shape---the docs say that it is from

> scar tissue pressing on the nerve and there's nothing they can do.

> His pain is across the back but worse on the left (I guess it was

> herniated to the left) and then he has FRONT thigh pain and is numb

> from the knee down on his left leg.

>

Herniation is a SP phenomenon.

Radiation to thigh front is a ST manifestation.

While it is tempting to needle Earth points, hold your hand and look for a

deeper imbalance:

a. Check shoulder height, maybe one is higher than another. This would skew

the hip and precipitate herniation and pain.

b. Check GB 21 bilaterally to see if one is harder or indurate, one would

guess the

L would be. If + ve this could have precipitated pain at L 4 and 5.

b. Check spine to see if one is there is scoliosis or kypho-lordosis. Check

esp

a small segment at T 3 4 5 for a small bend. If + ve this can have caused

the

pain.

In the same manner exclude disparate sternomastoid muscles, brachial reflex,

neck reflexes, certainly a skewed sphenoid bone [think cranio-sacral but in

acupuncture terms].

If any of these seen, correcting these would resolve pain.

In short, heal, but not by addressing the pain.

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

May 16, 2004

Phil

I have seen it often as you say and treated accordingly. Lower lumbar with

upper lesions contralateral and certainly SECONDARY as the upper can be cleared

in one treatment. The lower lumbosacral being more often than not the PRIMARY

not to forget that the low back is usually more in weakness and harder to

resolve.

Richard

In a message dated 5/16/2004 7:52:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

writes:

Hi Holmes & All,

Homes wrote:

> Herniation is a SP phenomenon. Radiation to thigh front is a ST

> manifestation. While it is tempting to needle Earth points, hold

> your hand and look for a deeper imbalance: (a) Check shoulder

> height, maybe one is higher than another. This would skew the hip

> and precipitate herniation and pain. (b) Check GB 21 bilaterally to

> see if one is harder or indurate, one would guess the L would be.

> If + ve this could have precipitated pain at L4 and L5. © Check

> spine to see if one is there is scoliosis or kypho-lordosis. Check

> esp a small segment at T 3 4 5 for a small bend. If + ve this can

> have caused the pain. In the same manner exclude disparate

> sternomastoid muscles, brachial reflex, neck reflexes, certainly a

> skewed sphenoid bone [think cranio-sacral but in acupuncture

> terms]. If any of these seen, correcting these would resolve pain.

> In short, heal, but not by addressing the pain. Holmes

Interesting comments, but are you sure that upper lesions /

changes are not SECONDARY to the lumbar pain, and its

consequential " guarding " , and taking weight off the affected leg?

In horses, as assessed by reaction to pressure palpation, pain in

the low lumbar to coccygeal area is very common. IMO, this is

mainly muscular, as midline (dorsal) palpation (even heavy) of the

vertebral spines and intervertebral spaces rarely elicits a pain

response. The affected rump muscles usually are in spasm. If left

untreated, some local muscular atrophy often occurs in 1-3 weeks,

due to " lazy use " of the affected leg.

Circa 70% of these horses show hypersensitivity to pressure

palpation of the contralateral neck, especially in the muscles

directly overlying the cervical vertebraal bodies (esp C4-C7).

Most horse vets with experience of AP diagnosis (by palpating the

BL and other Channels) put the HIND problem as the PRIMARY

and the contralateral FRONT problem as the SECONDARY.

For example, horses not " pushing enough " with the RIGHT HIND,

compensate by " pulling too much " with the LEFT FORE. This

usually causes overstrain in the lower left neck (or, rarely, in the

left scapular muscles).

Acupuncture of the NECK or scapular muscles of these horses

usually does NOT help the contralateral rump pain, and vice-versa.

BOTH the front and hind ends must be treated to get the best

results.

Could it be that human sciatica-type pain (as in low lumbar or

sacroiliac invlvement, herniated lumbar disc, etc) is the PRIMARY

and the thoracic, cervical, or sphenoid problems are only

compensatiory.SECONDARIES?

May 17, 2004