Guest guest Posted May 10, 2004 Report Share Posted May 10, 2004 Hi all, A hot topic is always the location of acupoints. I find that getting the Qi when needling isn't always as easy as it looks. Points seem to be mysterious little things that are difficult to pin down. Are they really fixed and fit the measurement of the textbooks? I don't know, I had a doctor today tell me that the location of acupoints is often different with every patient. An example of this is Baihui (DU20). Apparently experience shows it is not always 5 cun from the hairline, instead it can be found in the major depression on the apex of the head. What do other more experienced members say about this? Another instance where location is different is Quchi (LI11). The doctor explained that the arm should be at a 90 degree angle when locating this point. The point is in the middle of the crease rather than at the end of it. Also, a lot of points I've seen recently are very `off' from the textbook location. There are a few instances of this, where experience is the key. In terms of safety I can understand. An example is Fengchi (GB20). The doctor stated that for safety, puncture the needle 1 cun below the actual point and towards the mouth rather than the nose. Should we really follow the textbook to the letter? Or should be allow our point location to be in a dynamic state of flux like our syndrome differentiation? If so, how are we to find the points, by experience alone? Alot of patients may suffer or rather not get the treatment they deserve until we get that experience. Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2004 Report Share Posted May 10, 2004 Hi Attilio, Chinese Medicine , " Attilio DAlberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > Hi all, > > A hot topic is always the location of acupoints. I find that getting > the Qi when needling isn't always as easy as it looks. Points seem > to be mysterious little things that are difficult to pin down. While my own experience in this matter is limited, I did notice very early on in my training that acupoints did not seem to be in exact points on the body (which at first surprised me though I shouldn't have been surprised) but instead seem to roam and change. I asked my own Chinese doctor who has been practicing for 30 years in China and he explained that each human body was quite different - the meridians being an internal structure to what manifests as the outer physical body. The meridians themselves can change in size and placement in the body as can the acu-poiunts - which are simply qi gateways or relays. They are all " living " and therefore changing. In my own qigong and taiji practice, I can sense my meridians moving and changing over time. My doctor also pointed out that the body's energetic structure is far, far more complicated than the 12 channels and 8 extra channels that are sometimes utilized and that it is near impossible to chart the full body structure. It would be like using geographic charts that were plotted 10 years ago to navigate the earth. Bodies of waters, terrain, man-made structures are constantly changing the overall mapping of the earth and it takes actual visual and physical presence to understand the most current " topology " . One of the advantages I find in using palpation Tuina techniques is that I can utilize my own touch as well as the feedback from my client in order to find the correct location of a point. So whereas the general location is helpful, it is not essential to my practice. In fact, in a tuina session I will more like manipulate whole meridians of muscular and energy points which makes it less essential to find an specific single or multiple points. I just do it all based upon my client's feedback. Ultimately, I find, what I need to understand is my client's body and not the chart on a wall - though the chart is an excellent place to start. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2004 Report Share Posted May 10, 2004 This is a big topic. Personally, I do believe point location should be allowed to vary person to person as much as the diagnosis. I found myself confused in school because different instructors would have different locations for different points. I've heard three very different locations for LU7 and I'm sure there are others. Everybody seems to needle LI4 differently. Some japanese point locations differ slightly from chinese. I'm also sure that all these locations work for the people who use them, although for probably slightly different conditions. What made sense to me was using a system of feedback from the body to let it tell you what is right or not. Some people go with the AhShi point, some go with muscle testing, some go with the point that clears the abdomen, some people go with the point that gets the pulse to change in a positive fashion, and some use qigong to feel how the qi feels at an acupuncture point. If I come up with a point based on some body feedback methodology I atleast feel I'm not just stabbing my patients in the dark. This also takes into account points changing slightly from person to person, and sometimes only working on one side and not the other. CAM was written and decided by committee. To get these people to agree they had to compromise. So some inconsistencies will naturally arise due to different styles arriving at that compromise. I think an interesting thing to do is to sit down and compare nogier's ear chart with the ear chart that has been developed in china. From what I understand, china derived it's ear chart based on nogier's work. But while the two are mostly the same, they still have differences. And how they choose which side of the ear to treat is different. Which is right? They're probably both right some, but not all the time. That's when using a body feedback system can break the tie. Nogier used the pulse blip to verify ear points. Some points I believe are bigger than others and accuracy isn't as big a deal. Points on the fingers tend to be smaller. Some scalp points I do need pinpoint accuracy. ST36 for example, may be as big as a quarter. GB30 I think is as big as a fist, so I go with the AhShi point which varies from person to person. Sciatica demonstrates this because it can be due to a tight piriformis in some people. In order to get into the muscle you will have to needle higher than the textbook GB30, but the AhShi point should tell you exactly where it is. Instead of trying to remember all of the extra points in the gluts I just lump the similar ones all together. --brian > Should we really follow the textbook to the letter? Or should be > allow our point location to be in a dynamic state of flux like our > syndrome differentiation? If so, how are we to find the points, by > experience alone? Alot of patients may suffer or rather not get the > treatment they deserve until we get that experience. > > Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2004 Report Share Posted May 10, 2004 >When one of my teachers was asked about this exact same thing, his response was: " Finding qi on every point is not necessary, and neither is 'exact' location as qi will find the needle once it is there. " This seems to be true for me in my practice. Points vary from person to person, and whether or not I always get a qi response seems to be irrelevent. Another explanation by another teacher went like this: " The body very much wants to heal itself. The needles are tools to allow it to do so. If you give the body an inch it will want to grab a yard. " barbara This is a big topic. Personally, I do believe point location should > be allowed to vary person to person as much as the diagnosis. I > found myself confused in school because different instructors would > have different locations for different points. I've heard three very > different locations for LU7 and I'm sure there are others. Everybody > seems to needle LI4 differently. Some japanese point locations differ > slightly from chinese. I'm also sure that all these locations work > for the people who use them, although for probably slightly different > conditions. > > What made sense to me was using a system of feedback from the body to > let it tell you what is right or not. Some people go with the AhShi > point, some go with muscle testing, some go with the point that > clears the abdomen, some people go with the point that gets the pulse > to change in a positive fashion, and some use qigong to feel how the > qi feels at an acupuncture point. If I come up with a point based on > some body feedback methodology I atleast feel I'm not just stabbing > my patients in the dark. This also takes into account points changing > slightly from person to person, and sometimes only working on one > side and not the other. > > CAM was written and decided by committee. To get these people to > agree they had to compromise. So some inconsistencies will naturally > arise due to different styles arriving at that compromise. I think > an interesting thing to do is to sit down and compare nogier's ear > chart with the ear chart that has been developed in china. From what > I understand, china derived it's ear chart based on nogier's work. > But while the two are mostly the same, they still have differences. > And how they choose which side of the ear to treat is different. > Which is right? They're probably both right some, but not all the > time. That's when using a body feedback system can break the tie. > Nogier used the pulse blip to verify ear points. > > Some points I believe are bigger than others and accuracy isn't as > big a deal. Points on the fingers tend to be smaller. Some scalp > points I do need pinpoint accuracy. ST36 for example, may be as big > as a quarter. GB30 I think is as big as a fist, so I go with the > AhShi point which varies from person to person. Sciatica > demonstrates this because it can be due to a tight piriformis in > some people. In order to get into the muscle you will have to needle > higher than the textbook GB30, but the AhShi point should tell you > exactly where it is. Instead of trying to remember all of the extra > points in the gluts I just lump the similar ones all together. > > --brian > >> Should we really follow the textbook to the letter? Or should be >> allow our point location to be in a dynamic state of flux like our >> syndrome differentiation? If so, how are we to find the points, by >> experience alone? Alot of patients may suffer or rather not get the >> treatment they deserve until we get that experience. >> >> Attilio > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, > spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being > delivered. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2004 Report Share Posted May 10, 2004 I think there are a lot of problems with the Chinese ear acupuncture system and charts. As you've noted, the Chinese basically modified the Nogier chart and system, which was based on a consistent embryological view with the ear as a homonculus of the fetus in terms of anatomical locations in the fetus of vital organs and structures. The Chinese system was developed quickly, and by committee in a hurried manner. The Nogier system was clearly a product of biomedicine with a good dose of French terrain-based medicine. While it used needles originally to puncture the ear, it was not Chinese-based theoretically at all. The Chinese added points for triple burner, and superimposed Chinese medical concepts on functions of kidney, liver and other zang-fu to this. I think this is an uneasy melding of two approaches to the human mind and body, the Chinese and Western, On May 10, 2004, at 9:07 AM, briansbeard wrote: > I think > an interesting thing to do is to sit down and compare nogier's ear > chart with the ear chart that has been developed in china. From what > I understand, china derived it's ear chart based on nogier's work. > But while the two are mostly the same, they still have differences. > And how they choose which side of the ear to treat is different. > Which is right? They're probably both right some, but not all the > time. That's when using a body feedback system can break the tie. > Nogier used the pulse blip to verify ear points. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2004 Report Share Posted May 10, 2004 Hi Barbara, > > " The body very much wants to heal itself. The needles are tools to allow > it to do so. If you give the body an inch it will want to grab a yard. " > > barbara > I very much agree. The body can get the " point " or miss the point - depending " where the mind is at " , not the needle. :-) Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2004 Report Share Posted May 10, 2004 I agree that intention is important. It sets your focus and mindset for the task at hand, so you're not thinking about the whatever happened the night before. But it doesn't necessarily mean that it will guarantee the body can figure out what to do with the needles you've just inserted. There are scalp points I use to treat pain which require exact accuracy. If I'm more than 1/4-3/8 inch off they won't work. Then if I re-evaluate the position and get it right they can bring 80-90% relief. Believe me, my mind is as focused on helping the patient in both cases. I agree the body takes only an inch to grab a yard, but 80-90% of relief is a yard compared to the one to three needles that are inserted. Another issue associated with having different point locations on different people is the further compication for performing western studies on acupuncture. --brian Chinese Medicine , " Rich " <rfinkelstein@a...> wrote: > Hi Barbara, > > > > " The body very much wants to heal itself. The needles are tools to > allow > > it to do so. If you give the body an inch it will want to grab a yard. " > > > > barbara > > > I very much agree. The body can get the " point " or miss the point - > depending " where the mind is at " , not the needle. :-) > > Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Hi Brian, Rich and all, It seems that like most things in TCM, the location of points is very much related to personal experience, insight and intuition. I find this interesting and somewhat challenging but also frustrating. Is there anything in TCM that is straight-forward. I feel like by the time I have enough experience and gained enough insight into TCM it will be my time to retire. I'm sure quite a few students share my fears. Of course, you can by-pass the time by finding a good master which will involve either cash or being damm lucky, both of which I'm running short on. Does anyone have any advise on how to find the fast track path to gaining the necessary insight into, amongst other things, point location? Kind regards Attilio <Chinese Traditional Medicine> Chinese Traditional Medicine briansbeard [brian_s_beard] 10 May 2004 17:08 Chinese Medicine Re: Point Location This is a big topic. Personally, I do believe point location should be allowed to vary person to person as much as the diagnosis. I found myself confused in school because different instructors would have different locations for different points. I've heard three very different locations for LU7 and I'm sure there are others. Everybody seems to needle LI4 differently. Some japanese point locations differ slightly from chinese. I'm also sure that all these locations work for the people who use them, although for probably slightly different conditions. What made sense to me was using a system of feedback from the body to let it tell you what is right or not. Some people go with the AhShi point, some go with muscle testing, some go with the point that clears the abdomen, some people go with the point that gets the pulse to change in a positive fashion, and some use qigong to feel how the qi feels at an acupuncture point. If I come up with a point based on some body feedback methodology I atleast feel I'm not just stabbing my patients in the dark. This also takes into account points changing slightly from person to person, and sometimes only working on one side and not the other. CAM was written and decided by committee. To get these people to agree they had to compromise. So some inconsistencies will naturally arise due to different styles arriving at that compromise. I think an interesting thing to do is to sit down and compare nogier's ear chart with the ear chart that has been developed in china. From what I understand, china derived it's ear chart based on nogier's work. But while the two are mostly the same, they still have differences. And how they choose which side of the ear to treat is different. Which is right? They're probably both right some, but not all the time. That's when using a body feedback system can break the tie. Nogier used the pulse blip to verify ear points. Some points I believe are bigger than others and accuracy isn't as big a deal. Points on the fingers tend to be smaller. Some scalp points I do need pinpoint accuracy. ST36 for example, may be as big as a quarter. GB30 I think is as big as a fist, so I go with the AhShi point which varies from person to person. Sciatica demonstrates this because it can be due to a tight piriformis in some people. In order to get into the muscle you will have to needle higher than the textbook GB30, but the AhShi point should tell you exactly where it is. Instead of trying to remember all of the extra points in the gluts I just lump the similar ones all together. --brian > Should we really follow the textbook to the letter? Or should be > allow our point location to be in a dynamic state of flux like our > syndrome differentiation? If so, how are we to find the points, by > experience alone? Alot of patients may suffer or rather not get the > treatment they deserve until we get that experience. > > Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Thank you...Robert for the Live Point location article. Coming back to the anatomical aspect of location...what most forget or many never clearly understood and what is not emphasized enough in schools is that every point is located BETWEEN two muscles or between a muscle and a bone. Yes...we always hear that the point is in a xue or depressiopn but who remembers to palpate or sense clearly enough that other than ahshi points or muscle spasm or trigger points.... the needle is NOT supposed to be inserted into the muscle? In some areas it is more difficult than in others to palpate the 'between'. I am sure someone can quote the chapter and verse of Nei Jing where this is stated explicitly. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Attilio, I certainly share your fear. And part of my concern with graduating was finding a way to continue to learn when my favorite instructors are not there to provide guidance. Appropriate guidance certainly cuts down on fumble time. Well, at this point I can only provide a very mundane answer to your philosophical question but perhaps it may help. Generally, I think feeling the points is important. After a while a I'll perceive a point to have certain characteristics. For isntance, some points seem to be in a hole (like SP6), others always seem to have a knot in them (like SI11). There are a couple of methods I've found useful to determine point location. The first is using the pulse to determine point selection/location (only works if the patient is supine). While feeling the pulse touch around the point you have in mind to use. If the pulse doesn't change you're not on the point. If the pulse changes you're on the point. You have to decide whether the pulse feels better or worse while you're on the point. If the pulse is better, use the point, otherwise try a different one. For instance, using this method I find KD3 is closer to the medial malleolus than the textbook definition, and it will bring up the KD pulse if it was weak to begin with. And if I needle the textbook definition it doesn't always affect the pulse. But it always does if I use the position that is confirmed by the pulse. Using this method you atleast won't have to guess at which one of the many KD6 variations will be good for a particular patient. The second is using qigong to find the location. Relax, center yourself, use your favorite abdominal breathing technique, and take a 1.5 inch metal needle and hold it an inch or so above and pointing towards the point. Then see where the needle is drawn to. If you quiet yourself the location and direction of insertion will emerge. You (and the patient, but you can't always trust what the patient says) should get different sensations when you're on a point and when you're off the point, and that's how you know. It gets easier the more you practice qigong. But that implies it's not necessarily a fast track method. And then there's using AhShi points. I'm pretty sure an AhShi point is a point that's open at that moment, but there can be alot of AhShi points in a small area, not all of which may be relevant to the current treatment. So I generally think of this as less reliable although I certainly use it, especially for treating trigger points. --brian Chinese Medicine , " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > Hi Brian, Rich and all, > > It seems that like most things in TCM, the location of points is very much > related to personal experience, insight and intuition. I find this > interesting and somewhat challenging but also frustrating. Is there anything > in TCM that is straight-forward. > > I feel like by the time I have enough experience and gained enough insight > into TCM it will be my time to retire. I'm sure quite a few students share > my fears. Of course, you can by-pass the time by finding a good master which > will involve either cash or being damm lucky, both of which I'm running > short on. Does anyone have any advise on how to find the fast track path to > gaining the necessary insight into, amongst other things, point location? > > Kind regards > > Attilio > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Brian- If the KD pulse is weak upon first palpation, I like to include the KD/HT line intx. It's Du4, BL23,52, and Du11, BL15, BL44. These points strengthen the Kidneys while subduing and strenghtening the Heart. I only do it the first 3 treatments. JG --- briansbeard <brian_s_beard wrote: > Attilio, I certainly share your fear. And part of my > concern with > graduating was finding a way to continue to learn > when my favorite > instructors are not there to provide guidance. > Appropriate guidance > certainly cuts down on fumble time. Well, at this > point I can only > provide a very mundane answer to your philosophical > question but > perhaps it may help. > > Generally, I think feeling the points is important. > After a while a > I'll perceive a point to have certain > characteristics. For isntance, > some points seem to be in a hole (like SP6), others > always seem to > have a knot in them (like SI11). > > There are a couple of methods I've found useful to > determine point > location. The first is using the pulse to determine > point > selection/location (only works if the patient is > supine). While > feeling the pulse touch around the point you have in > mind to use. If > the pulse doesn't change you're not on the point. If > the pulse > changes you're on the point. You have to decide > whether the pulse > feels better or worse while you're on the point. If > the pulse is > better, use the point, otherwise try a different > one. For instance, > using this method I find KD3 is closer to the medial > malleolus than > the textbook definition, and it will bring up the KD > pulse if it was > weak to begin with. And if I needle the textbook > definition it > doesn't always affect the pulse. But it always does > if I use the > position that is confirmed by the pulse. Using this > method you > atleast won't have to guess at which one of the many > KD6 variations > will be good for a particular patient. > > The second is using qigong to find the location. > Relax, center > yourself, use your favorite abdominal breathing > technique, and take a > 1.5 inch metal needle and hold it an inch or so > above and pointing > towards the point. Then see where the needle is > drawn to. If you > quiet yourself the location and direction of > insertion will emerge. > You (and the patient, but you can't always trust > what the patient > says) should get different sensations when you're on > a point and when > you're off the point, and that's how you know. It > gets easier the > more you practice qigong. But that implies it's not > necessarily a > fast track method. > > And then there's using AhShi points. I'm pretty sure > an AhShi point > is a point that's open at that moment, but there can > be alot of AhShi > points in a small area, not all of which may be > relevant to the > current treatment. So I generally think of this as > less reliable > although I certainly use it, especially for treating > trigger points. > > --brian > > Chinese Medicine , > " Attilio > D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > > Hi Brian, Rich and all, > > > > It seems that like most things in TCM, the > location of points is > very much > > related to personal experience, insight and > intuition. I find this > > interesting and somewhat challenging but also > frustrating. Is there > anything > > in TCM that is straight-forward. > > > > I feel like by the time I have enough experience > and gained enough > insight > > into TCM it will be my time to retire. I'm sure > quite a few > students share > > my fears. Of course, you can by-pass the time by > finding a good > master which > > will involve either cash or being damm lucky, both > of which I'm > running > > short on. Does anyone have any advise on how to > find the fast track > path to > > gaining the necessary insight into, amongst other > things, point > location? > > > > Kind regards > > > > Attilio > > > > > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes./careermakeover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 an old article i wrote on point location: http://jabinet.net/livept.html > > > Should we really follow the textbook to the letter? Or should be > > allow our point location to be in a dynamic state of flux like our > > syndrome differentiation? If so, how are we to find the points, by > > experience alone? Alot of patients may suffer or rather not get the > > treatment they deserve until we get that experience. > > > > Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Other than the formal training in the TCM school, I found my initial qigong master through referral of friends (and ended up being the only student remaining out of ~20). For my initial tuina and acupuncture/herbal masters by self introduction. According to them (they told others behind me years afterwards), they took me because of the genuine interest and good intuition (Wu Xing). I have paid no dollars to the latter two masters, but continue to get them gifts on occassions. I have also met a couple of other masters who volunteered to teach me but I couldn't take them due to time limitation and my own availability. My belief is, keep up the faith you will encounter the right ones for you some day. Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto wrote: Hi Brian, Rich and all, It seems that like most things in TCM, the location of points is very much related to personal experience, insight and intuition. I find this interesting and somewhat challenging but also frustrating. Is there anything in TCM that is straight-forward. I feel like by the time I have enough experience and gained enough insight into TCM it will be my time to retire. I'm sure quite a few students share my fears. Of course, you can by-pass the time by finding a good master which will involve either cash or being damm lucky, both of which I'm running short on. Does anyone have any advise on how to find the fast track path to gaining the necessary insight into, amongst other things, point location? Kind regards Attilio Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at HotJobs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Hi Brian, Rich, Emmanuel and Robert, Thank you all for your input. I can see a path developing with the use of palpating points whilst taking the pulse. Qigong and intuition is also a vital if not more important tool in the location of points. This is not a fast track path, but then it doesn't need to be. I've been developing my intuition for some years and hopefully it will help me to some degree in the location of the points. I was never taught to palpate acupoints whilst taking the pulse in my course, which is a shame, but I'll certainly use it as I grapple point location in the future. With everything in TCM, I'll just have to have more patience. Kind regards Attilio <traditional_Chinese_medicine> traditional_Chinese_medicine briansbeard [brian_s_beard] 11 May 2004 17:00 Chinese Medicine Re: Point Location Attilio, I certainly share your fear. And part of my concern with graduating was finding a way to continue to learn when my favorite instructors are not there to provide guidance. Appropriate guidance certainly cuts down on fumble time. Well, at this point I can only provide a very mundane answer to your philosophical question but perhaps it may help. Generally, I think feeling the points is important. After a while a I'll perceive a point to have certain characteristics. For isntance, some points seem to be in a hole (like SP6), others always seem to have a knot in them (like SI11). There are a couple of methods I've found useful to determine point location. The first is using the pulse to determine point selection/location (only works if the patient is supine). While feeling the pulse touch around the point you have in mind to use. If the pulse doesn't change you're not on the point. If the pulse changes you're on the point. You have to decide whether the pulse feels better or worse while you're on the point. If the pulse is better, use the point, otherwise try a different one. For instance, using this method I find KD3 is closer to the medial malleolus than the textbook definition, and it will bring up the KD pulse if it was weak to begin with. And if I needle the textbook definition it doesn't always affect the pulse. But it always does if I use the position that is confirmed by the pulse. Using this method you atleast won't have to guess at which one of the many KD6 variations will be good for a particular patient. The second is using qigong to find the location. Relax, center yourself, use your favorite abdominal breathing technique, and take a 1.5 inch metal needle and hold it an inch or so above and pointing towards the point. Then see where the needle is drawn to. If you quiet yourself the location and direction of insertion will emerge. You (and the patient, but you can't always trust what the patient says) should get different sensations when you're on a point and when you're off the point, and that's how you know. It gets easier the more you practice qigong. But that implies it's not necessarily a fast track method. And then there's using AhShi points. I'm pretty sure an AhShi point is a point that's open at that moment, but there can be alot of AhShi points in a small area, not all of which may be relevant to the current treatment. So I generally think of this as less reliable although I certainly use it, especially for treating trigger points. --brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Palpation of points and channels is, of course, a large part of the practice of Japanese acupuncture. My young colleague, Jason Robertson, has just finished a year's study in Beijing with a Nan Jing master acupuncturist who palpates the channels as his major tool of diagnosis. Interestingly, the term mai can be translated as either vessel or pulse. Paul Unschuld translates mai as " movement in the vessels. " To further elaborate, in Shigehisa Kuriyama's fascinating text, " The Expressiveness of the Body " , the author states that the Chinese were never interested in the vessel itself, but in the flow of qi and blood under the fingers of the diagnostician. One could easily palpate the flow of qi and blood in the channels at points along the channel as in the radial pulse, according to the view of Jason' s teacher Dr. Wang. Finally, in the Su Wen, the pulses were not only palpated at the cunkou/wrist position, but on individual channel points as well, such as ren ying/St. 9, or fu yang/St 42. On May 11, 2004, at 7:18 PM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > Hi Brian, Rich, Emmanuel and Robert, > > Thank you all for your input. I can see a path developing with the > use of > palpating points whilst taking the pulse. Qigong and intuition is > also a > vital if not more important tool in the location of points. This is > not a > fast track path, but then it doesn't need to be. I've been developing > my > intuition for some years and hopefully it will help me to some degree > in the > location of the points. I was never taught to palpate acupoints whilst > taking the pulse in my course, which is a shame, but I'll certainly > use it > as I grapple point location in the future. With everything in TCM, > I'll just > have to have more patience. > > Kind regards > > Attilio > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " " < zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Finally, in the Su Wen, the pulses were not only palpated at the > cunkou/wrist position, but on individual channel points as well, such > as ren ying/St. 9, or fu yang/St 42. > > > Most Yuan points on Yin channels are places where a pulse can be palpated: LU9, LR3, K3, HT7, then of course there's ST42. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2004 Report Share Posted May 12, 2004 Hi Attilio! I find that the points vary quite a bit from patient to patient, as does the location of the pulse on the wrist come to think of it. I have a rule about points: If I can't get the patient to feel qi sensation on the point, I must have missed it, even if I am where the point is *supposed* to be. Of course, some patients have neuropathy and will not feel qi no matter what . . . Hope things start looking up for you. At 08:08 AM 5/11/2004, you wrote: >Hi Brian, Rich and all, > >It seems that like most things in TCM, the location of points is very much >related to personal experience, insight and intuition. I find this >interesting and somewhat challenging but also frustrating. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2004 Report Share Posted May 15, 2004 The Japanese school, influenced by the Blind Healers, often place points away from traditional Chinese locations. LU 5 - draw an imaginary line some 3 cm long parallel to the biceps tendon, with half of it above, and half below the cubital crease. The point may be found in one of 3 positions, above, at and below the crease, located by palpation and the degree to which a reflex is released. Often in cases of damp, or congealed phlegm, the point is significantly palpable than the surrounding tissue. As often it is tender, and as Matsumoto puts it, 'gummy'. Jing-Well LV 1 - this can be found on dorsum of great toe, in midline, .2 cm superior to nail bed; or at the traditional location, or .2 cm superior to it. the correct location will release a reflex stagnation at R LV 14 or subcostally. In this system it is critical to find the point and the trajectory correctly, sometimes to even withdraw and reintroduce needle. Payback is tremendous, one could level out an aberrant SGPT etc level and obtain a normal level, or create a euthyroid situation, or release the Dai, or settle the disparate-height shoulder. I am working greatly with this approach and find the points in this system differed in location about 20% of times, with great clinical advantage. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2004 Report Share Posted May 15, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " Dr. Holmes Keikobad " <acuheal@e...> wrote: > The Japanese school, influenced by the Blind Healers, often place points > away > from traditional Chinese locations. > Which Japanese school? I studied with (even taught for) Toyohari association -- an association primarily for the blind-- and the location for LU5 was not as you describe. > LU 5 - draw an imaginary line some 3 cm long parallel to the biceps tendon, > with half of it above, and half below the cubital crease. The point may be > found > in one of 3 positions, above, at and below the crease, located by palpation > and > the degree to which a reflex is released. > I was taught to locate LU5 close to the vessel, didn't matter if it was on the radial or ulnar side of the tendon, since actual insertion wasn't done (or at least wasn't done beyond about 2mm). Interestingly, Shudo sensei teaches two different locations for LU5 dpending if it being used for root tx or symptom control. The usual (TCM) location is used for symptoms, the location for root tx is toward the radial end of the crease, not far from LI11. Point location also differs depending on the technique used -- so I use different locations for LR3 for example depending on whether I'm supplementing, draining, or doing direct moxibustion, magnets, etc. robert hayden http://jabinet.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2004 Report Share Posted May 16, 2004 Attilio: Does anyone have any advise on how to find the fast track path > > Shut your eyes and slide our fingers alomg the channel pathway. Nine times out of 10 you will find the point by interactive energetics. This is the style of the Blind Acupuncturists of Japan. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video. NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2004 Report Share Posted May 16, 2004 Attillio I was a apprentice student and dear friend of Dr. Robert C. Sohn from 1976 until his passing in 1997. Early on he advised to take a thin stick of incense and run it approximately 1 inch above the skin surfcae. Just enough to feel the warmth...not enough to burn. When at an AP point the heat is sucked into the point and it feels much hotter. Try it some time. Richard In a message dated 5/15/2004 7:10:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, acuheal writes: Attilio: Does anyone have any advise on how to find the fast track path > > Shut your eyes and slide our fingers alomg the channel pathway. Nine times out of 10 you will find the point by interactive energetics. This is the style of the Blind Acupuncturists of Japan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2004 Report Share Posted May 16, 2004 Hi, > Does anyone have any advise on how to find the fast track path > > I do not know of any fast track path, but I can recommend a path that increases general Awareness - and therefore greater awareness of body energy - over time. All of Chinese medicine manifests itself from a fundamental understanding of life, i.e. that from Wuji (the beginning) comes Yin/Yang (the waves of life). This transformation is called Taiji. The motion of Yin/Yang creates Qi which is vibrating waves of Yin and Yang is the stuff of the universe that we see (this would be analogous to Superstrings or Quanta). To study this, to experience this, and to undertand this - i.e., to become Aware of this) is a lifelong process but each step is a step toware greater Awareness of Everything - and this would include the human waves of energy channels that are called meridians and acu-points. All of Chinese medicine is based upon the free flow of these energy channels. As the heart/mind (Shen) relaxes and becomes aware of these energy channels then it is possible to more easily feel them as they flow through the human body. But it takes time - like learning art. Where to start? I would suggest the books " Who Can Ride the Dragon " by Zhang, " The Book of Changes and the Unchanging Truth " by Hua-Ching Ni (the beginning part), and any (or all) of the books by Mark Seem. It takes time - but " listening " and " sensitivity " takes time. Ir requires the heart/mind to forsake its manifested Ego so that it can " See " more. :-) Hope this makes some sense, Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2004 Report Share Posted May 17, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: >Does anyone have any advise on how to find the fast track path to > gaining the necessary insight into, amongst other things, point location? > My 2 cents: First, you need to have a good idea about the standard location of a given point. I would say to start, you should choose a handful of points that you know very well. Palpate them and the area around them on everybody who will let you (so Ren 1 would not be a good one to start with). Here's the key: FOCUS. PAY ATTENTION to tissue changes, puffiness, elasticity, surface tension, temperature, etc, and note anything that you might find -- don't try to prejudge anything, just palpate, not with any intention to needle or anything else -- you might not even use this point in tx. Notice the breathing of the patient, listen for peristalsis, notice changes in your own breathing, or any other cues. Watch the patient's face as you palpate... I studied with blind practitioners of Toyohari Igakukai but I figure G_d has given me the gift of sight so I should use it... does she look more relaxed, does he wince? Start on the surface and palpate successively deeper. Notice differences between layers of tissue, between adjacent areas of tissue, etc. The whole procedure should be fairly brief, don't spend to much time thinking about it. If you don't feel anything at first, don't worry about it . Just work on getting experience in palpating, and remember the sensations you feel. Soon you'll start to notice that your hand will start moving toward areas that need attention. Another useful practice is to correlate the tissue changes with the other signs & sx that the patient presents. Then you can get a better idea of the role the channels and points play in manifesting pathology. I have given up hope of ever reaching the level of the people who taught me; but that doesn't mean I've stopped trying. One time, during some clinic visits in Tokyo, the group I was with decided to ask each master practitioner if they did any personal cultivation, qigong, etc, to achieve their very impressive skills. None of them really did; their advice was to practice point location and needle technique as much as possible --- " renshu renshu renshu " ( " practice practice practice " ) was their constant refrain. Toyohari association has a unique method of study called Kozato hoshiki which is a group method of determining point location, needle technique, pathology, etc, largely by real-time pulse palpation. I found it very helpful; it is something you might consider, though the method is particularly linked with some very specialized needle techniques which may or may not be to your liking. Anyway, don't give up, even though it is a lifelong pursuit. In Japan, even masters with 40 years experience still get together and study point location on their days off. robert hayden http://jabinet.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2004 Report Share Posted May 17, 2004 Hi Robert, > group I was with decided to ask each master practitioner if they did any personal > cultivation, qigong, etc, to achieve their very impressive skills. None of them really > did; their advice was to practice point location and needle technique as much as > possible --- " renshu renshu renshu " ( " practice practice practice " ) was their constant > refrain. > I like your advice. It is very similar to the way I practice Tuina and Shiatsu. I palpate and observe and I let the " qi " quide me. I do not start with any pre-conceived idea of how to treat - everyone is different and everyone holds something different in their heart. Instead I just observe the new " terrain " and let it guide me. In regards to outside practice, I have found that activities such as Taiji and Qigong - and even singing and dancing - have helped me develop better " listening sensitivity " as well as cultivate Qi. As my Qi " mixes " with the Qi of my client, I feel the harmonization - sort of like two violins tuning each other or two pendulums coming naturally synchronizing. It is true that harmonization can be elicited using acupuncture and herbs, but I believe that there is something special about the human touch - and the mind that manifests it - that produces a special kind of harmonization that is deeper, faster, and ultimately curing. At least this is what my experience has been over the last 15 years. The human touch is indeed something different. Thanks for relating your experiences. I very much enjoyed reading about them. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2004 Report Share Posted May 17, 2004 Thank you Richard and Robert for your tips. I'll certainly take heed of these practices you both talk of. To become a competent person in any field, its just gonna take time, patience and practice. I see there an't no fast track way. Kind regards Attilio <Chinese Traditional Medicine> Chinese Traditional Medicine kampo36 [kampo36] 17 May 2004 00:32 Chinese Medicine Re: Point Location Chinese Medicine , " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: >Does anyone have any advise on how to find the fast track path to > gaining the necessary insight into, amongst other things, point location? > My 2 cents: First, you need to have a good idea about the standard location of a given point. I would say to start, you should choose a handful of points that you know very well. Palpate them and the area around them on everybody who will let you (so Ren 1 would not be a good one to start with). Here's the key: FOCUS. PAY ATTENTION to tissue changes, puffiness, elasticity, surface tension, temperature, etc, and note anything that you might find -- don't try to prejudge anything, just palpate, not with any intention to needle or anything else -- you might not even use this point in tx. Notice the breathing of the patient, listen for peristalsis, notice changes in your own breathing, or any other cues. Watch the patient's face as you palpate... I studied with blind practitioners of Toyohari Igakukai but I figure G_d has given me the gift of sight so I should use it... does she look more relaxed, does he wince? Start on the surface and palpate successively deeper. Notice differences between layers of tissue, between adjacent areas of tissue, etc. The whole procedure should be fairly brief, don't spend to much time thinking about it. If you don't feel anything at first, don't worry about it . Just work on getting experience in palpating, and remember the sensations you feel. Soon you'll start to notice that your hand will start moving toward areas that need attention. Another useful practice is to correlate the tissue changes with the other signs & sx that the patient presents. Then you can get a better idea of the role the channels and points play in manifesting pathology. I have given up hope of ever reaching the level of the people who taught me; but that doesn't mean I've stopped trying. One time, during some clinic visits in Tokyo, the group I was with decided to ask each master practitioner if they did any personal cultivation, qigong, etc, to achieve their very impressive skills. None of them really did; their advice was to practice point location and needle technique as much as possible --- " renshu renshu renshu " ( " practice practice practice " ) was their constant refrain. Toyohari association has a unique method of study called Kozato hoshiki which is a group method of determining point location, needle technique, pathology, etc, largely by real-time pulse palpation. I found it very helpful; it is something you might consider, though the method is particularly linked with some very specialized needle techniques which may or may not be to your liking. Anyway, don't give up, even though it is a lifelong pursuit. In Japan, even masters with 40 years experience still get together and study point location on their days off. robert hayden http://jabinet.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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