Guest guest Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 ok any help is much apreciated. heres the case: female 22yrs, Chief complaint scanty menses History and symptoms Menarche at age11. 6 yrs ago the patient started taking the contraceptive pill, her periods prior to taking the pill were regular, lasting 4-6 days, with bright red blood. She would experience constipation and headaches, prior to the start of menstruation and body aches,especially in the lower legs and tender breasts. During her periods she would exsperiences diaorrhea and servere dysmenorreah. Whilst taking the pill the premenstural symptoms and dysmenohrea disappeared. However the premenstrual constipation and diarohea during the periods did not. The period became shorter lasing 3-5 days, blood became darker with at least 2 days of black purple blood and clots were almost always present. Recently the patient stoped taking the contraceptive pill. Her period arrived as normal for the first month and was of very good quality, lasting 4 days with bright red blood for all days. However she again experienced servere dysmenorreah. The following month there was no period at all. The most recent period was extreamly scanty, lasting 4 days with small amounts of black blood through out, no other symptoms were present. Other symptoms On waking her nose is blocked and mouth very dry, some mornings she coughs up small amounts of thick yellow phlegm, which is extreamly difficult to expectorate. Sleap is very good, but often finds it difficult to get up in the morning. Urine normal. Stools normal to sticky consistency, not as regular as she would like. Most of the time once a day, but can go up 4 days with out a movement. Medical History The patient also suffers from constipation predominant IBS, which is very much affected by diet, exercise and emotion. In the last year the patient has also developed a strong allergy to birch pollen and as a result can not eat a large number of fruits. Tongue inspection and pulse Swollen tongue with red tip and edges, slightly purple tongue body with echymossis spots, little or no coating at the front and a thick yellow coating at the root. Pulse is slippery and wiry on both sides ok so this is what it think the scanty periods are due to blood stasis, which is a result of phlegm damp acumulation. at the root is spleen qi deficiency, which over time has produced the phlegm. liver qi stagnation due to emotion has produced the spleen qi deficiency. with constitutional kidney deficiency. what do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Hi Alpha! Blood stasis? Has she any *sharp* pain? At 12:02 PM 4/27/2004, you wrote: >ok any help is much apreciated. <snip> > >ok so this is what it think the scanty periods are due to blood >stasis, which is a result of phlegm damp acumulation. at the root is >spleen qi deficiency, which over time has produced the phlegm. liver >qi stagnation due to emotion has produced the spleen qi deficiency. >with constitutional kidney deficiency. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 hi Pete there is sometimes a stabing pain associated with a hard mass in the left or right illiac fossa, which now leads me to liver qi stagnation, which as imaired the blood, disrupting the stomach and large intestine qi. with some internal heat and possible weakened lung qi. what you think? how would you treat? the root liver qi stag first? or the blood stasis? or since the constitution is goood all? Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen <petet@a...> wrote: > Hi Alpha! > > Blood stasis? Has she any *sharp* pain? > > At 12:02 PM 4/27/2004, you wrote: > >ok any help is much apreciated. <snip> > > > >ok so this is what it think the scanty periods are due to blood > >stasis, which is a result of phlegm damp acumulation. at the root is > >spleen qi deficiency, which over time has produced the phlegm. liver > >qi stagnation due to emotion has produced the spleen qi deficiency. > >with constitutional kidney deficiency. > > Regards, > > Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 hi do you ask patient that did she feel, aversion to or dislike the cold. slightly purple tongue indicate the cold. ache and pain can be cold obstruction in the channel? diarrhoe during menstraton also indicate (xu han) empty cold. liver qi stagnation also can caurse by the obstruction of the cold? cold can attracts dampness just the question joe alphatrion666 <magenta_seventy wrote: ok any help is much apreciated. heres the case: female 22yrs, Chief complaint scanty menses History and symptoms Menarche at age11. 6 yrs ago the patient started taking the contraceptive pill, her periods prior to taking the pill were regular, lasting 4-6 days, with bright red blood. She would experience constipation and headaches, prior to the start of menstruation and body aches,especially in the lower legs and tender breasts. During her periods she would exsperiences diaorrhea and servere dysmenorreah. Whilst taking the pill the premenstural symptoms and dysmenohrea disappeared. However the premenstrual constipation and diarohea during the periods did not. The period became shorter lasing 3-5 days, blood became darker with at least 2 days of black purple blood and clots were almost always present. Recently the patient stoped taking the contraceptive pill. Her period arrived as normal for the first month and was of very good quality, lasting 4 days with bright red blood for all days. However she again experienced servere dysmenorreah. The following month there was no period at all. The most recent period was extreamly scanty, lasting 4 days with small amounts of black blood through out, no other symptoms were present. Other symptoms On waking her nose is blocked and mouth very dry, some mornings she coughs up small amounts of thick yellow phlegm, which is extreamly difficult to expectorate. Sleap is very good, but often finds it difficult to get up in the morning. Urine normal. Stools normal to sticky consistency, not as regular as she would like. Most of the time once a day, but can go up 4 days with out a movement. Medical History The patient also suffers from constipation predominant IBS, which is very much affected by diet, exercise and emotion. In the last year the patient has also developed a strong allergy to birch pollen and as a result can not eat a large number of fruits. Tongue inspection and pulse Swollen tongue with red tip and edges, slightly purple tongue body with echymossis spots, little or no coating at the front and a thick yellow coating at the root. Pulse is slippery and wiry on both sides ok so this is what it think the scanty periods are due to blood stasis, which is a result of phlegm damp acumulation. at the root is spleen qi deficiency, which over time has produced the phlegm. liver qi stagnation due to emotion has produced the spleen qi deficiency. with constitutional kidney deficiency. what do you think? Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 the patient has no particular like or dislikes to cold or hot climates, but prefers drinks to be warm ie not hot and not cold. she also has a constant feeling of internal warmth Chinese Medicine , joesun gee <joesungee> wrote: > hi > > do you ask patient that did she feel, aversion to or dislike the cold. slightly purple tongue indicate the cold. ache and pain can be cold obstruction in the channel? diarrhoe during menstraton also indicate (xu han) empty cold. liver qi stagnation also can caurse by the obstruction of the cold? cold can attracts dampness > just the question > joe > > alphatrion666 <magenta_seventy@h...> wrote: > ok any help is much apreciated. > > heres the case: > > female 22yrs, > > > Chief complaint > scanty menses > > History and symptoms > Menarche at age11. > > 6 yrs ago the patient started taking the contraceptive pill, her > periods prior to taking the pill were regular, lasting 4-6 days, with > bright red blood. She would experience constipation and headaches, > prior to the start of menstruation and body aches,especially in the > lower legs and tender breasts. During her periods she would > exsperiences diaorrhea and servere dysmenorreah. > > Whilst taking the pill the premenstural symptoms and dysmenohrea > disappeared. However the premenstrual constipation and diarohea > during the periods did not. The period became shorter lasing 3-5 > days, blood became darker with at least 2 days of black purple blood > and clots were almost always present. > > Recently the patient stoped taking the contraceptive pill. Her > period arrived as normal for the first month and was of very good > quality, lasting 4 days with bright red blood for all days. However > she again experienced servere dysmenorreah. > > The following month there was no period at all. > > The most recent period was extreamly scanty, lasting 4 days with > small amounts of black blood through out, no other symptoms were > present. > > Other symptoms > > On waking her nose is blocked and mouth very dry, some mornings she > coughs up small amounts of thick yellow phlegm, which is extreamly > difficult to expectorate. > > Sleap is very good, but often finds it difficult to get up in the > morning. > > Urine normal. > > Stools normal to sticky consistency, not as regular as she would > like. Most of the time once a day, but can go up 4 days with out a > movement. > > Medical History > > The patient also suffers from constipation predominant IBS, which is > very much affected by diet, exercise and emotion. In the last year > the patient has also developed a strong allergy to birch pollen and > as a result can not eat a large number of fruits. > > > Tongue inspection and pulse > Swollen tongue with red tip and edges, slightly purple tongue body > with echymossis spots, little or no coating at the front and a thick > yellow coating at the root. > > Pulse is slippery and wiry on both sides > > > ok so this is what it think the scanty periods are due to blood > stasis, which is a result of phlegm damp acumulation. at the root is > spleen qi deficiency, which over time has produced the phlegm. liver > qi stagnation due to emotion has produced the spleen qi deficiency. > with constitutional kidney deficiency. > > > what do you think? > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > > and adjust accordingly. > > If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Hi Alpha! I would start with liver qi stagnation, and toss in a few ashi points if there were any. I always prescribe herbal pills as well, keeping some 400 varieties on hand. I use the new Fratkin book and select the pills in the 20 minutes while the patient is retaining the needles, basing my selection in part on how the patient reacted to the needles. At 07:54 AM 4/28/2004, you wrote: >hi Pete > >there is sometimes a stabing pain associated with a hard mass in the >left or right illiac fossa, which now leads me to liver qi >stagnation, which as imaired the blood, disrupting the stomach and >large intestine qi. with some internal heat and possible weakened >lung qi. > >what you think? > >how would you treat? the root liver qi stag first? or the blood >stasis? or since the constitution is goood all? Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Hi According to the book of Obstetrics & Gynecology in written by Giovanni Maciocia, he differentiate 5 possible diagnosis of scanty periods. 1. Blood Deficiency 2. Kidney-yang deficiency 3.Kidney-yin deficiency 4.Stasis of blood 5.Phlegm obstructing the Uterus IMO this patient more likely relate to Stasis of blood and disharmonious of Chong mai and Ren Mai. Joe Pete Theisen <petet wrote: Hi Alpha! I would start with liver qi stagnation, and toss in a few ashi points if there were any. I always prescribe herbal pills as well, keeping some 400 varieties on hand. I use the new Fratkin book and select the pills in the 20 minutes while the patient is retaining the needles, basing my selection in part on how the patient reacted to the needles. At 07:54 AM 4/28/2004, you wrote: >hi Pete > >there is sometimes a stabing pain associated with a hard mass in the >left or right illiac fossa, which now leads me to liver qi >stagnation, which as imaired the blood, disrupting the stomach and >large intestine qi. with some internal heat and possible weakened >lung qi. > >what you think? > >how would you treat? the root liver qi stag first? or the blood >stasis? or since the constitution is goood all? Regards, Pete Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2004 Report Share Posted April 29, 2004 Hi Alpha and Joe! Well, Alpha, there you have two approaches - Joe's and mine. I hope this is not confusing! At 01:21 PM 4/28/2004, you wrote: >Hi >According to the book of Obstetrics & Gynecology in >written by Giovanni Maciocia, he differentiate 5 possible diagnosis of >scanty periods. > >1. Blood Deficiency >2. Kidney-yang deficiency >3.Kidney-yin deficiency >4.Stasis of blood >5.Phlegm obstructing the Uterus > >IMO this patient more likely relate to Stasis of blood and disharmonious >of Chong mai and Ren Mai. > >Joe Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2004 Report Share Posted April 29, 2004 Additional patterns: Liver qi depression Liver kidney yin vacuity Spleen qi vacuity On Apr 28, 2004, at 7:20 PM, Pete Theisen wrote: > Hi Alpha and Joe! > > Well, Alpha, there you have two approaches - Joe's and mine. I hope > this is > not confusing! > > At 01:21 PM 4/28/2004, you wrote: > >Hi > >According to the book of Obstetrics & Gynecology in > >written by Giovanni Maciocia, he differentiate 5 possible diagnosis > of > >scanty periods. > > > >1. Blood Deficiency > >2. Kidney-yang deficiency > >3.Kidney-yin deficiency > >4.Stasis of blood > >5.Phlegm obstructing the Uterus > > > >IMO this patient more likely relate to Stasis of blood and > disharmonious > >of Chong mai and Ren Mai. > > > >Joe > > Regards, > > Pete > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link > page, http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop > being delivered. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2004 Report Share Posted April 29, 2004 Sorry, if I haven't been a pain lately but hotmail has decided it doesn't want to download the forum to my email box I want to play and i'd like to give my opinion too! Could you send the date of birth of this patient to me off line? Salvador __________ > heres the case: > > female 22yrs, > > > Chief complaint > scanty menses > > History and symptoms > Menarche at age11. > > 6 yrs ago the patient started taking the contraceptive pill, her > periods prior to taking the pill were regular, lasting 4-6 days, with > bright red blood. She would experience constipation and headaches, > prior to the start of menstruation and body aches,especially in the > lower legs and tender breasts. During her periods she would > exsperiences diaorrhea and servere dysmenorreah. > > Whilst taking the pill the premenstural symptoms and dysmenohrea > disappeared. However the premenstrual constipation and diarohea > during the periods did not. The period became shorter lasing 3-5 > days, blood became darker with at least 2 days of black purple blood > and clots were almost always present. > > Recently the patient stoped taking the contraceptive pill. Her > period arrived as normal for the first month and was of very good > quality, lasting 4 days with bright red blood for all days. However > she again experienced servere dysmenorreah. > > The following month there was no period at all. > > The most recent period was extreamly scanty, lasting 4 days with > small amounts of black blood through out, no other symptoms were > present. > > Other symptoms > > On waking her nose is blocked and mouth very dry, some mornings she > coughs up small amounts of thick yellow phlegm, which is extreamly > difficult to expectorate. > > Sleap is very good, but often finds it difficult to get up in the > morning. > > Urine normal. > > Stools normal to sticky consistency, not as regular as she would > like. Most of the time once a day, but can go up 4 days with out a > movement. > > Medical History > > The patient also suffers from constipation predominant IBS, which is > very much affected by diet, exercise and emotion. In the last year > the patient has also developed a strong allergy to birch pollen and > as a result can not eat a large number of fruits. > > > Tongue inspection and pulse > Swollen tongue with red tip and edges, slightly purple tongue body > with echymossis spots, little or no coating at the front and a thick > yellow coating at the root. > > Pulse is slippery and wiry on both sides > > > ok so this is what it think the scanty periods are due to blood > stasis, which is a result of phlegm damp acumulation. at the root is > spleen qi deficiency, which over time has produced the phlegm. liver > qi stagnation due to emotion has produced the spleen qi deficiency. > with constitutional kidney deficiency. > > > what do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2004 Report Share Posted April 29, 2004 Hi Z'ev do you mean Liver qi depression is ( Gan qi yu jie ) which is commonly described as Liver qi stagnation or ( Gan qi xu ) Liver qi deficiency? regard joe <zrosenbe wrote: Additional patterns: Liver qi depression Liver kidney yin vacuity Spleen qi vacuity On Apr 28, 2004, at 7:20 PM, Pete Theisen wrote: > Hi Alpha and Joe! > > Well, Alpha, there you have two approaches - Joe's and mine. I hope > this is > not confusing! > > At 01:21 PM 4/28/2004, you wrote: > >Hi > >According to the book of Obstetrics & Gynecology in > >written by Giovanni Maciocia, he differentiate 5 possible diagnosis > of > >scanty periods. > > > >1. Blood Deficiency > >2. Kidney-yang deficiency > >3.Kidney-yin deficiency > >4.Stasis of blood > >5.Phlegm obstructing the Uterus > > > >IMO this patient more likely relate to Stasis of blood and > disharmonious > >of Chong mai and Ren Mai. > > > >Joe > > Regards, > > Pete > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link > page,?http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop > being delivered. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2004 Report Share Posted April 29, 2004 Gan qi yu jie is " liver qi binding depression " . So that is correct. Not liver qi deficiency. Z'ev On Apr 29, 2004, at 6:21 AM, joesun gee wrote: > Hi Z'ev > > do you mean Liver qi depression is ( Gan qi yu jie ) which is > commonly described as Liver qi stagnation > or ( Gan qi xu ) Liver qi deficiency? > > regard > > joe > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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