RE: a little rant :) on prescriptive acupuncture, weight loss and intention

[Guest guest]

IF I may be allowed to use the simili of acupuncture points and electric

light switches. It would follow that it would be quite irelevant who flicked

the switch wether it was a scientist versed in the latest theories or an

aborigeni that had never been out of the desert. nor would a beleif system

in 'electricity' make a diference to the flicking of the switch and the

coming on of the light.

 

The same principle applies with acupuncture points. It is quite irrelevant

what I beleive. IF my intention is to tonify LIV Blood XU (having

appropratedly ascertained the individual need) and my action is to place a

needle anticlockwise in LIV-2 and I leave it in for 20 mins. then my patient

is going to be in trouble.

 

Having said that I have no doubt that the power / coherence of my own bio

energetic field will interact and affect my patient. he hee. (depending

who is healthier it could go the other way)

 

Lately there has been a lot of prescriptive acupuncture discussed on this

forum. How can 10 people with a frozen shoulder all be treated with the

same points? Many acupuncture books say sedate ST-38 . This is simplistic

and erroneus acupuncture methodoly. There are many reasons originating in

diferent meridians that will lead to the outcome of a frozen shoulder.

 

The same applies to obesety. Some may have an underactive thyroid, some may

have sugar adddiction, some may eat too much as a means of stuffing feelings

down, some may lead extremely sedentary lives, some may be eating the wrong

foods for their constitution and energetic matrix.

 

Prescriptive acupuncture is DANGEROUS for it takes no account of individual

needs. Now this may agitate those of ou members who are still finding their

feet in terms of diagnosis, But as I have said before I am more than happy

to prove to anyone that all acupuncture points have an effect on our

muscular / organ / homonal system.

 

Many acupuncturist rely on it and do get good results ,but I think good

results is a relative term. For example if I do 'prescriptive' and fix you

shoulder but then you get IBS or excema or fungal infections, or twitching

eyes after 10 sessions then I have fixed something but am now responsible

for something else. This happens quite commonly but we tend not to make the

connection between our individually diagnostically wrong treatments and the

untowads effects on ou patients.

 

 

Whilst I am ranting 'I will go the whole hog'. The use of DU-20 with needle

and moxa as was suggested a while back 'prescriptevely' for anal fissures

is to be approached with caution I have many experiences of disturbing my

patients by tonifying DU-20 in the past.

 

The same applies to the 'presciptive' use of AE treatments - blatant

sedation of back shu points is to be approached with caution (regarless of

the depth of needle insertion). Yes, you can have good effects, but what

happens when you sedate an organ that needs tonifying? well i'll tell you,

as it has happened to me in my early days quite a lot. People would lose

consciousness, and one particular one wee'd herself all over my couch.

 

with regards to needle order I have heard all manner of theories over the

years for which i have yet to find any substance. My bottom line is that

specific acupuncture points are disturbed / stuck at any particular time in

specific meridians. I have yet to notice any particular efect on which

points I go for first. Though for elegance sake I sedate 1st and tonify 2nd

and I will open stuck points in the order of flow of the meridian

 

salvador

www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

 

_

 

 

>Hi Phil,

>

>I believe that symbolism is a fundamental aspect in ALL situations

>and not just religious and can be effectively used in medicine. The

>weight lost points, punctured in order I gave, produces the

>Christian cross. If you use the symbol with the intent, i.e. you

>know the symbol your using and what it means to you, then it can be

>an effective tool. Yes, symbols mean different things to different

>people, but it's the intent you put into it and your interpretation

>of that symbol when used that's important.

>

>Attilio

>

> " " <@e...> wrote:

> > Attilio, in some situations I also accept the power (significance

>for me and the patient) of symbols. However, I am not sure that the

> > ORDER of needling is important because from any given pattern of

> > points, the SAME SYMBOL can be made whatever the ORDER of

> > the needling! IMO, choosing correct points is more important than

> > the order of needling in most cases.

>

>

 

_______________

Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo

[Guest guest]

Hi Salvador,

I think that some things also need to be borne in mind which I would like to

mention.

After thousands and thousands of treatments our intention or ability to

focus intention does become somewhat refined then becoming a powerful

tool/ability within any therapeutic interaction.

I also have noticed at times the phenomenon of doing the so called " wrong

point/s " according to the classics or text books but still mysteriously

helped the patient significantly as Matthew has mentioned in his post,I have

concluded that it does matter who flicks the switch.This is perhaps where

the whole area of placebo comes in which led to debate some time ago on this

list,now that was a can of worms opened.......Perhaps it is not what we

believe " but what we " know to be true " at least for ourselves that makes the

difference,after thousands of treatments we do develop " knowings " It is

possible and I think highly likely that when we are told that ST38 is for

frozen shoulder for example,those amazing practitioners before us intended

to pass on their human laboratory experience by simple stating that they

noticed that " many " patients with FS also have a sore point somewhere midway

down the tibialis muscle and its worth having a look.Modern day

practitioners call this point ST 38 but it could be around and about so

palpation is important.

I have found that acive or sore spots are more effective distal points than

the actual textbook location if they are not sore or tender or responsive in

any way,this I think is because the body is linked by zones rather than thin

meridians floating in a vacuum,joined by dots known as points.

An aborigine may be able to flick the switch but can he/ she change the

bulb?

With Regards

Ray Ford

----

 

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, 24 April 2004 5:38:55 PM

Chinese Medicine

RE: a little rant on prescriptive acupuncture, weight loss

and intention

 

IF I may be allowed to use the simili of acupuncture points and electric

light switches. It would follow that it would be quite irelevant who flicked

 

the switch wether it was a scientist versed in the latest theories or an

aborigeni that had never been out of the desert. nor would a beleif system

in 'electricity' make a diference to the flicking of the switch and the

coming on of the light.

 

The same principle applies with acupuncture points. It is quite irrelevant

what I beleive. IF my intention is to tonify LIV Blood XU (having

appropratedly ascertained the individual need) and my action is to place a

needle anticlockwise in LIV-2 and I leave it in for 20 mins. then my patient

 

is going to be in trouble.

 

Having said that I have no doubt that the power / coherence of my own bio

energetic field will interact and affect my patient. he hee. (depending

who is healthier it could go the other way)

 

Lately there has been a lot of prescriptive acupuncture discussed on this

forum. How can 10 people with a frozen shoulder all be treated with the

same points? Many acupuncture books say sedate ST-38 . This is simplistic

and erroneus acupuncture methodoly. There are many reasons originating in

diferent meridians that will lead to the outcome of a frozen shoulder.

 

The same applies to obesety. Some may have an underactive thyroid, some may

have sugar adddiction, some may eat too much as a means of stuffing feelings

 

down, some may lead extremely sedentary lives, some may be eating the wrong

foods for their constitution and energetic matrix.

 

Prescriptive acupuncture is DANGEROUS for it takes no account of individual

needs. Now this may agitate those of ou members who are still finding their

feet in terms of diagnosis, But as I have said before I am more than happy

to prove to anyone that all acupuncture points have an effect on our

muscular / organ / homonal system.

 

Many acupuncturist rely on it and do get good results ,but I think good

results is a relative term. For example if I do 'prescriptive' and fix you

shoulder but then you get IBS or excema or fungal infections, or twitching

eyes after 10 sessions then I have fixed something but am now responsible

for something else. This happens quite commonly but we tend not to make the

connection between our individually diagnostically wrong treatments and the

untowads effects on ou patients.

 

 

Whilst I am ranting 'I will go the whole hog'. The use of DU-20 with needle

and moxa as was suggested a while back 'prescriptevely' for anal fissures

is to be approached with caution I have many experiences of disturbing my

patients by tonifying DU-20 in the past.

 

The same applies to the 'presciptive' use of AE treatments - blatant

sedation of back shu points is to be approached with caution (regarless of

the depth of needle insertion). Yes, you can have good effects, but what

happens when you sedate an organ that needs tonifying? well i'll tell you,

as it has happened to me in my early days quite a lot. People would lose

consciousness, and one particular one wee'd herself all over my couch.

 

with regards to needle order I have heard all manner of theories over the

years for which i have yet to find any substance. My bottom line is that

specific acupuncture points are disturbed / stuck at any particular time in

specific meridians. I have yet to notice any particular efect on which

points I go for first. Though for elegance sake I sedate 1st and tonify 2nd

and I will open stuck points in the order of flow of the meridian

 

salvador

www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

 

_

 

 

>Hi Phil,

>

>I believe that symbolism is a fundamental aspect in ALL situations

>and not just religious and can be effectively used in medicine. The

>weight lost points, punctured in order I gave, produces the

>Christian cross. If you use the symbol with the intent, i.e. you

>know the symbol your using and what it means to you, then it can be

>an effective tool. Yes, symbols mean different things to different

>people, but it's the intent you put into it and your interpretation

>of that symbol when used that's important.

>

>Attilio

>

> " " <@e...> wrote:

> > Attilio, in some situations I also accept the power (significance

>for me and the patient) of symbols. However, I am not sure that the

> > ORDER of needling is important because from any given pattern of

> > points, the SAME SYMBOL can be made whatever the ORDER of

> > the needling! IMO, choosing correct points is more important than

> > the order of needling in most cases.

>

>

 

_______________

Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In my opinion Du 20 is best approached with caution but as it is (along

withdu14)such a powerfully yang point it an excellent point to relieve xs

yang and wind often used with sedation technique,I can imagine why tonifying

it could cause problems.

Regards

Ray Ford

 

----

 

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, 24 April 2004 5:38:55 PM

Chinese Medicine

RE: a little rant on prescriptive acupuncture, weight loss

and intention

 

IF I may be allowed to use the simili of acupuncture points and electric

light switches. It would follow that it would be quite irelevant who flicked

 

the switch wether it was a scientist versed in the latest theories or an

aborigeni that had never been out of the desert. nor would a beleif system

in 'electricity' make a diference to the flicking of the switch and the

coming on of the light.

 

The same principle applies with acupuncture points. It is quite irrelevant

what I beleive. IF my intention is to tonify LIV Blood XU (having

appropratedly ascertained the individual need) and my action is to place a

needle anticlockwise in LIV-2 and I leave it in for 20 mins. then my patient

 

is going to be in trouble.

 

Having said that I have no doubt that the power / coherence of my own bio

energetic field will interact and affect my patient. he hee. (depending

who is healthier it could go the other way)

 

Lately there has been a lot of prescriptive acupuncture discussed on this

forum. How can 10 people with a frozen shoulder all be treated with the

same points? Many acupuncture books say sedate ST-38 . This is simplistic

and erroneus acupuncture methodoly. There are many reasons originating in

diferent meridians that will lead to the outcome of a frozen shoulder.

 

The same applies to obesety. Some may have an underactive thyroid, some may

have sugar adddiction, some may eat too much as a means of stuffing feelings

 

down, some may lead extremely sedentary lives, some may be eating the wrong

foods for their constitution and energetic matrix.

 

Prescriptive acupuncture is DANGEROUS for it takes no account of individual

needs. Now this may agitate those of ou members who are still finding their

feet in terms of diagnosis, But as I have said before I am more than happy

to prove to anyone that all acupuncture points have an effect on our

muscular / organ / homonal system.

 

Many acupuncturist rely on it and do get good results ,but I think good

results is a relative term. For example if I do 'prescriptive' and fix you

shoulder but then you get IBS or excema or fungal infections, or twitching

eyes after 10 sessions then I have fixed something but am now responsible

for something else. This happens quite commonly but we tend not to make the

connection between our individually diagnostically wrong treatments and the

untowads effects on ou patients.

 

 

Whilst I am ranting 'I will go the whole hog'. The use of DU-20 with needle

and moxa as was suggested a while back 'prescriptevely' for anal fissures

is to be approached with caution I have many experiences of disturbing my

patients by tonifying DU-20 in the past.

 

The same applies to the 'presciptive' use of AE treatments - blatant

sedation of back shu points is to be approached with caution (regarless of

the depth of needle insertion). Yes, you can have good effects, but what

happens when you sedate an organ that needs tonifying? well i'll tell you,

as it has happened to me in my early days quite a lot. People would lose

consciousness, and one particular one wee'd herself all over my couch.

 

with regards to needle order I have heard all manner of theories over the

years for which i have yet to find any substance. My bottom line is that

specific acupuncture points are disturbed / stuck at any particular time in

specific meridians. I have yet to notice any particular efect on which

points I go for first. Though for elegance sake I sedate 1st and tonify 2nd

and I will open stuck points in the order of flow of the meridian

 

salvador

www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

 

_

 

 

>Hi Phil,

>

>I believe that symbolism is a fundamental aspect in ALL situations

>and not just religious and can be effectively used in medicine. The

>weight lost points, punctured in order I gave, produces the

>Christian cross. If you use the symbol with the intent, i.e. you

>know the symbol your using and what it means to you, then it can be

>an effective tool. Yes, symbols mean different things to different

>people, but it's the intent you put into it and your interpretation

>of that symbol when used that's important.

>

>Attilio

>

> " " <@e...> wrote:

> > Attilio, in some situations I also accept the power (significance

>for me and the patient) of symbols. However, I am not sure that the

> > ORDER of needling is important because from any given pattern of

> > points, the SAME SYMBOL can be made whatever the ORDER of

> > the needling! IMO, choosing correct points is more important than

> > the order of needling in most cases.

>

>

 

_______________

Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Ray, Love your analogy of the bulb

 

I wholeheartedly agree that intention is a powerful force, this is the inner

teaching Of Taiji Chuan. My power to affect the switching on of a point is

now consideably greater than when I started. however, regadless of one's

power the light will still come on/off. In fact the more ability whe have

to focus our intention the greater the need for accurate diagnosis.

 

afew months back I was treating 2 brother one of whom I had stopped seeing

some months previous. I was in a hurry and it was late in the evening. I

had already decided that I wanted to work on the back shu points. got his

folder and tonified the point. The lad had a sudden very visible muscle

spasm along the inne shu point aproxx 6 inches long. I was very confused as

I knew that such a result was unthinkable as I had treated him many times

and was clear on my diagnosis.

 

I happened to look at the folder and realized my mistake I had taken his

brother's folder. I altered my treatment and attempted to undo my mistake.

but the lad still had a bit of a rough time for about a week.

 

so, intention is all well and good but we still have to flick the right

switch in the right direction.

 

One of my students mention a japanese woman that diagnosed via the

tenderness in the Fire points. so I have been experimenting. I had one the

othe day who before treatment for excess LI was quite tender in ST-41 fire

point. after sedating LI tenderness was gone from ST-41. this will tie in

with your concept of zones, as I see the meridians as myofacial connections

that encompass muscles ,tendons, ligaments across the whole body linking

meridians like 2 end s of a stick.

 

However. in my experience one still has to treat the 'right end of the

stick'

Salvador

www.meridian-qi-acupuncture.com

________

> Hi Salvador,

>I think that some things also need to be borne in mind which I would like

>to

>mention.

>After thousands and thousands of treatments our intention or ability to

>focus intention does become somewhat refined then becoming a powerful

>tool/ability within any therapeutic interaction.

>I also have noticed at times the phenomenon of doing the so called " wrong

>point/s " according to the classics or text books but still mysteriously

>helped the patient significantly as Matthew has mentioned in his post,I

>have

>concluded that it does matter who flicks the switch.This is perhaps where

>the whole area of placebo comes in which led to debate some time ago on

>this

>list,now that was a can of worms opened.......Perhaps it is not what we

>believe " but what we " know to be true " at least for ourselves that makes the

>difference,after thousands of treatments we do develop " knowings " It is

>possible and I think highly likely that when we are told that ST38 is for

>frozen shoulder for example,those amazing practitioners before us intended

>to pass on their human laboratory experience by simple stating that they

>noticed that " many " patients with FS also have a sore point somewhere midway

>down the tibialis muscle and its worth having a look.Modern day

>practitioners call this point ST 38 but it could be around and about so

>palpation is important.

>I have found that acive or sore spots are more effective distal points than

>the actual textbook location if they are not sore or tender or responsive

>in

>any way,this I think is because the body is linked by zones rather than

>thin

>meridians floating in a vacuum,joined by dots known as points.

>An aborigine may be able to flick the switch but can he/ she change the

>bulb?

>With Regards

>Ray Ford

 

_______________

It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today!

http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

[Guest guest]

I hesitate to belabor this point, but xie4 Ýõ shouldn't be translated as

sedate. Xie4 means to drain, to eliminate repletion. No Chinese

dictionary, medical or otherwise, translates xie4 as sedate. Sedate

means to put to sleep. Sedation would be an accurate description of

injecting procaine chloride into a point, numbing the area.

 

 

On Apr 24, 2004, at 8:03 AM, rayford wrote:

 

> In my opinion Du 20 is best approached with caution but as it is (along

> withdu14)such a powerfully yang point it an excellent point to

> relieve xs

> yang and wind often used with sedation technique,I can imagine why

> tonifying

> it could cause problems.

> Regards

> Ray Ford

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hey Zev,

I do see what you mean point taken,sedation in this case does mean to me

drain "

Sedation,tonifying etc are terms which hark back to my Western training.I

know that Bob Flaws,Wiseman etc want a different standardised approach such

as the term repletion and vacuity I guess I am a slow learner.

Regards Ray Ford

 

----

 

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, 25 April 2004 4:39:20 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: RE: a little rant on prescriptive acupuncture, weight

loss and intention

 

I hesitate to belabor this point, but xie4 $B]u(B shouldn't be translated

as

sedate. Xie4 means to drain, to eliminate repletion. No Chinese

dictionary, medical or otherwise, translates xie4 as sedate. Sedate

means to put to sleep. Sedation would be an accurate description of

injecting procaine chloride into a point, numbing the area.

 

 

On Apr 24, 2004, at 8:03 AM, rayford wrote:

 

> In my opinion Du 20 is best approached with caution but as it is (along

> withdu14)such a powerfully yang point it an excellent point to

> relieve xs

> yang and wind often used with sedation technique,I can imagine why

> tonifying

> it could cause problems.

> Regards

> Ray Ford

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Zev, Ray,

 

This is a new concept to me. I have no problem with the word 'Sedate'.

having made an accurate diagnosis and chosen point specifically to that

person I find that when I leave needles in anticlockwise the person

invariably 'mellows, relaxes, like a weight is been taken off them, feels

sleepy esp if they haven't had enough sleep.

 

you mention the word 'repletion' instead of ton. which i can more or less

connect with I am struggling with the defenition of 'vacuity' can you

tell me more?

 

salvador

 

__________

>

>Hey Zev,

>I do see what you mean point taken,sedation in this case does mean to me

>drain "

>Sedation,tonifying etc are terms which hark back to my Western training.I

>know that Bob Flaws,Wiseman etc want a different standardised approach such

>as the term repletion and vacuity I guess I am a slow learner.

>Regards Ray Ford

>

>----

>

>Chinese Medicine

>Sunday, 25 April 2004 4:39:20 PM

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: RE: a little rant on prescriptive acupuncture, weight

>loss and intention

>

>I hesitate to belabor this point, but xie4 $B]u(B shouldn't be translated

>as

>sedate. Xie4 means to drain, to eliminate repletion. No Chinese

>dictionary, medical or otherwise, translates xie4 as sedate. Sedate

>means to put to sleep. Sedation would be an accurate description of

>injecting procaine chloride into a point, numbing the area.

>

>

>On Apr 24, 2004, at 8:03 AM, rayford wrote:

>

> > In my opinion Du 20 is best approached with caution but as it is (along

> > withdu14)such a powerfully yang point it an excellent point to

> > relieve xs

> > yang and wind often used with sedation technique,I can imagine why

> > tonifying

> > it could cause problems.

> > Regards

> > Ray Ford

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Salvador,within the framework of 5 element acupucture as I was taught

years ago,the mother point was called the first tonification point ie Liv 8

is the first tonification point of the liver as it is the water point the

grandmother/father point was called the second tonification point ie the

metal point for wood(or contolling point on the ke cycle)The fire point for

wood the first sedation point and the earth the second sedation point ie

Liv2 and 3 respectively.The terms tonifiction and sedation became engraved

at this time.Nigel Wiseman has declared these terms to be wrong and maybe

they are but many many practitioners were taught them so it has become a

habit.The term vacuity is used instead of empty or xu this is an attempt by

Nigel to get everyone to use the same language and make these terms standard

(vacuity,i presume from the word vacuum).

Other scholars disagree such as Deadman and Maciocia both who still use the

terms empty and deficiency in all their writings.Wisemans term 5 phases is

also avoided by scholars like Maciocia who told me recently that he doesnt

think 5 phases is any better so wont use it as everyone knows what he means

by 5 elements even though he knows 5 elements isnt the perfect translation

for wu xing he doesnt think 5 phases is any better and I am literally

quoting him here.

My point is that even translators of Chinese texts disagree with each other

so its hard to prove who is the 'more correct " Unschuld uses 5 phases but

others do not so the problem with these terms is that many of the Western

scholars " cant agree so the debate goes on.

Regards Ray Ford

 

----

 

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, 25 April 2004 6:54:19 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: RE: a little rant on prescriptive acupuncture, weight

loss and intention

 

Hi Zev, Ray,

 

This is a new concept to me. I have no problem with the word 'Sedate'.

having made an accurate diagnosis and chosen point specifically to that

person I find that when I leave needles in anticlockwise the person

invariably 'mellows, relaxes, like a weight is been taken off them, feels

sleepy esp if they haven't had enough sleep.

 

you mention the word 'repletion' instead of ton. which i can more or less

connect with I am struggling with the defenition of 'vacuity' can you

tell me more?

 

salvador

 

__________

>

>Hey Zev,

>I do see what you mean point taken,sedation in this case does mean to me

>drain "

>Sedation,tonifying etc are terms which hark back to my Western training.I

>know that Bob Flaws,Wiseman etc want a different standardised approach such

>as the term repletion and vacuity I guess I am a slow learner.

>Regards Ray Ford

>

>----

>

>Chinese Medicine

>Sunday, 25 April 2004 4:39:20 PM

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: RE: a little rant on prescriptive acupuncture, weight

>loss and intention

>

>I hesitate to belabor this point, but xie4 $B]u(B shouldn't be translated

>as

>sedate. Xie4 means to drain, to eliminate repletion. No Chinese

>dictionary, medical or otherwise, translates xie4 as sedate. Sedate

>means to put to sleep. Sedation would be an accurate description of

>injecting procaine chloride into a point, numbing the area.

>

>

>On Apr 24, 2004, at 8:03 AM, rayford wrote:

>

> > In my opinion Du 20 is best approached with caution but as it is (along

> > withdu14)such a powerfully yang point it an excellent point to

> > relieve xs

> > yang and wind often used with sedation technique,I can imagine why

> > tonifying

> > it could cause problems.

> > Regards

> > Ray Ford

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Ray ,

 

 

many thanks, your are extremely clear, laguage is important and needs to be

precise. Unfortunately the microcosm of the acupuncture community is a

reflection of the Tower of Babel that appears to be our collective worldwide

experience.

 

 

No surprises there In fact re reading the mail I note that I have

understood nothing as my first association on reading the concept of

repletion was to do with Ton. and Vacuity with Sedation. So I understood the

concepts in reverse!. So on the streght of that, I will stay witht the

meanings that are generally understood.

 

Salvador

 

__

 

 

>Hi Salvador,within the framework of 5 element acupucture as I was taught

>years ago,the mother point was called the first tonification point ie Liv 8

>is the first tonification point of the liver as it is the water point the

>grandmother/father point was called the second tonification point ie the

>metal point for wood(or contolling point on the ke cycle)The fire point for

>wood the first sedation point and the earth the second sedation point ie

>Liv2 and 3 respectively.The terms tonifiction and sedation became engraved

>at this time.Nigel Wiseman has declared these terms to be wrong and maybe

>they are but many many practitioners were taught them so it has become a

>habit.The term vacuity is used instead of empty or xu this is an attempt

>by

>Nigel to get everyone to use the same language and make these terms

>standard

>(vacuity,i presume from the word vacuum).

>Other scholars disagree such as Deadman and Maciocia both who still use the

>terms empty and deficiency in all their writings.Wisemans term 5 phases is

>also avoided by scholars like Maciocia who told me recently that he doesnt

>think 5 phases is any better so wont use it as everyone knows what he means

>by 5 elements even though he knows 5 elements isnt the perfect translation

>for wu xing he doesnt think 5 phases is any better and I am literally

>quoting him here.

>My point is that even translators of Chinese texts disagree with each other

>so its hard to prove who is the 'more correct " Unschuld uses 5 phases but

>others do not so the problem with these terms is that many of the Western

>scholars " cant agree so the debate goes on.

>Regards Ray Ford

>

>----

>

>Chinese Medicine

>Sunday, 25 April 2004 6:54:19 PM

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: RE: a little rant on prescriptive acupuncture, weight

>loss and intention

>

>Hi Zev, Ray,

>

>This is a new concept to me. I have no problem with the word 'Sedate'.

>having made an accurate diagnosis and chosen point specifically to that

>person I find that when I leave needles in anticlockwise the person

>invariably 'mellows, relaxes, like a weight is been taken off them, feels

>sleepy esp if they haven't had enough sleep.

>

>you mention the word 'repletion' instead of ton. which i can more or less

>connect with I am struggling with the defenition of 'vacuity' can you

>tell me more?

>

>salvador

>

>__________

> >

> >Hey Zev,

> >I do see what you mean point taken,sedation in this case does mean to me

> >drain "

> >Sedation,tonifying etc are terms which hark back to my Western training.I

> >know that Bob Flaws,Wiseman etc want a different standardised approach

>such

> >as the term repletion and vacuity I guess I am a slow learner.

> >Regards Ray Ford

> >

> >----

> >

> >Chinese Medicine

> >Sunday, 25 April 2004 4:39:20 PM

> >Chinese Medicine

> >Re: RE: a little rant on prescriptive acupuncture,

>weight

> >loss and intention

> >

> >I hesitate to belabor this point, but xie4 $B]u(B shouldn't be

>translated

> >as

> >sedate. Xie4 means to drain, to eliminate repletion. No Chinese

> >dictionary, medical or otherwise, translates xie4 as sedate. Sedate

> >means to put to sleep. Sedation would be an accurate description of

> >injecting procaine chloride into a point, numbing the area.

> >

> >

> >On Apr 24, 2004, at 8:03 AM, rayford wrote:

> >

> > > In my opinion Du 20 is best approached with caution but as it is

>(along

> > > withdu14)such a powerfully yang point it an excellent point to

> > > relieve xs

> > > yang and wind often used with sedation technique,I can imagine why

> > > tonifying

> > > it could cause problems.

> > > Regards

> > > Ray Ford

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

--- salvador march <salvador_march

wrote:

> This is a new concept to me. I have no problem with

> the word 'Sedate'.

 

Hi Salvador. My personal problem with the word sedate

are the connotations of sedated people having dull

minds and weak wills. For example, we sedate bears to

tag them, and sedate mentally disturbed people to keep

them from acting.

Draining replete fire will cause a " manic " person to

feel calm, sleepy perhaps, and much more clear-headed

and well-intentioned than before. This doesn't seem

like the word sedate to me.

Thanks for reading,

Hugo

 

 

> having made an accurate diagnosis and chosen point

> specifically to that

> person I find that when I leave needles in

> anticlockwise the person

> invariably 'mellows, relaxes, like a weight is been

> taken off them, feels

> sleepy esp if they haven't had enough sleep.

>

> you mention the word 'repletion' instead of ton.

> which i can more or less

> connect with I am struggling with the defenition of

> 'vacuity' can you

> tell me more?

>

> salvador

>

> __________

> >

> >Hey Zev,

> >I do see what you mean point taken,sedation in

> this case does mean to me

> >drain "

> >Sedation,tonifying etc are terms which hark back to

> my Western training.I

> >know that Bob Flaws,Wiseman etc want a different

> standardised approach such

> >as the term repletion and vacuity I guess I am a

> slow learner.

> >Regards Ray Ford

> >

> >----

> >

> >Chinese Medicine

> >Sunday, 25 April 2004 4:39:20 PM

> >Chinese Medicine

> >Re: RE: a little rant on

> prescriptive acupuncture, weight

> >loss and intention

> >

> >I hesitate to belabor this point, but xie4 $B]u(B

> shouldn't be translated

> >as

> >sedate. Xie4 means to drain, to eliminate

> repletion. No Chinese

> >dictionary, medical or otherwise, translates xie4

> as sedate. Sedate

> >means to put to sleep. Sedation would be an

> accurate description of

> >injecting procaine chloride into a point, numbing

> the area.

> >

> >

> >On Apr 24, 2004, at 8:03 AM, rayford wrote:

> >

> > > In my opinion Du 20 is best approached with

> caution but as it is (along

> > > withdu14)such a powerfully yang point it an

> excellent point to

> > > relieve xs

> > > yang and wind often used with sedation

> technique,I can imagine why

> > > tonifying

> > > it could cause problems.

> > > Regards

> > > Ray Ford

> > >

> >

> >

> >[Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >Membership requires that you do not post any

> commerical, swear, religious,

> >spam messages,flame another member or swear.

> >

> >To change your email delivery settings,

> http://groups.

> >comChinese Medicine/ click ‘edit

> my membership' on the

> >right hand side and adjust accordingly.

> >

> >If you , it takes a few days for the

> messages to stop being

> >delivered.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> My point is that even translators of Chinese texts

> disagree with each other

 

Wu Xing almost literally means 'five walk', or

perhaps five steps, or perhaps five movements. In any

case, I think most, if not all of us, can agree that

the Wu Xing are about a constantly changing dynamic

rather than five fixed non-interacting points.

 

Bye,

Hugo

 

 

 

 

 

__________

Messenger - Communicate instantly... " Ping "

your friends today! Download Messenger Now

http://uk.messenger./download/index.html

[Guest guest]

While there may be some debate about choice of terms in cases of wu

xing/five phase and the like, tonification and sedation are clearly

wrong, and have no relationship to the original Chinese.

 

 

On Apr 25, 2004, at 3:08 AM, rayford wrote:

 

>

> My point is that even translators of Chinese texts disagree with each

> other

> so its hard to prove who is the 'more correct " Unschuld uses 5 phases

> but

> others do not so the problem with these terms is that many of the

> Western

> scholars " cant agree so the debate goes on.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I couldn't agree more with you, Hugo. 'Elements' gives the impression

of something fixed, where xing has the quality of movement and

activity. Years ago, Michio Kushi the macrobiotic teacher refused to

use the term 'element' for this reason, choosing 'five transformations'

instead.

 

These subtle differences in translation can make a world of difference

in how we understand basic concepts.

 

 

 

 

On Apr 25, 2004, at 7:48 AM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

 

> > My point is that even translators of Chinese texts

> > disagree with each other

>

> Wu Xing almost literally means 'five walk', or

> perhaps five steps, or perhaps five movements. In any

> case, I think most, if not all of us, can agree that

> the Wu Xing are about a constantly changing dynamic

> rather than five fixed non-interacting points.

>

> Bye,

> Hugo

>

>

>      

>      

>            

> __________

> Messenger - Communicate instantly... " Ping "

> your friends today! Download Messenger Now

> http://uk.messenger./download/index.html

>

>

> Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear,

> religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear.

>

> To translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link

> page,  http://babel.altavista.com/

>

>

> and

> adjust accordingly.

>

> If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop

> being delivered.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well Z'ev,

 

I would say that the term Ton. and Sed. are neither right nor wrong. If

every one who reads this when they see the word Ton. understand that it

refers to a process of turning a needle clockwise and then removing it then

the word is effective. if on the other hand you wish to highlight

different energetic states and ascrive terms to them to allow you to

differentiate a diagnostic modality then you may have a point.

 

From my perspective I find that I do very well in my practice by the simple

expedient of finding out which meridian is going to be Def (I will turn the

needle clockwise and immediately remove) and which will be in Excess ( I

insert a needle turn anticlockwise and remove after approx 15 - 20 min). I

am a country bumkin, I have not written a book (yet), I am not versed in

the classics, I don't read chinese, yet I have a consistent healing success

in the 90% + and this is what it boill down to at the end of the day.

 

salvador

www.meridian-qi-acupucnture.com

 

___________

 

>While there may be some debate about choice of terms in cases of wu

>xing/five phase and the like, tonification and sedation are clearly

>wrong, and have no relationship to the original Chinese.

>

>

>On Apr 25, 2004, at 3:08 AM, rayford wrote:

>

> >

> > My point is that even translators of Chinese texts disagree with each

> > other

> > so its hard to prove who is the 'more correct " Unschuld uses 5 phases

> > but

> > others do not so the problem with these terms is that many of the

> > Western

> > scholars " cant agree so the debate goes on.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

If you define 'success' as by what you achieve, it does little to

define a profession, or communicate what it is you do to others.

Without accurate terminology or a medical literature that accurately

communicates what the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans or we practice, there

is no way to assure that we know what it is what are studying or

talking about.

 

 

On Apr 25, 2004, at 11:25 AM, salvador march wrote:

 

>

> Well Z'ev,

>

> I would say that the term Ton. and Sed. are neither right nor wrong. 

> If

> every one who reads this when they see the word Ton. understand that

> it

> refers to a process of turning a needle clockwise and then removing

> it then

> the word is effective.  if on the other hand  you wish to highlight

> different energetic states and ascrive terms to them to allow you to

> differentiate a diagnostic modality then you may have a point.

>

> From my perspective I find that I do very well in my practice by the

> simple

> expedient of finding out which meridian is going to be Def (I will

> turn the

> needle clockwise and immediately remove) and which will be in Excess

> ( I

> insert a needle turn anticlockwise and remove after approx 15 - 20

> min). I

> am a country bumkin,  I have not written a book (yet), I am not

> versed in

> the classics, I don't read chinese, yet I have a consistent healing

> success

> in the 90% + and this is what it boill down to at the end of the day.

>

> salvador

> www.meridian-qi-acupucnture.com

>

> ___________

>

> >While there may be some debate about choice of terms in cases of wu

> >xing/five phase and the like, tonification and sedation are clearly

> >wrong, and have no relationship to the original Chinese.

> >

> >

> >On Apr 25, 2004, at 3:08 AM, rayford wrote:

> >

> > >

> > >  My point is that even translators of Chinese texts disagree with

> each

> > > other

> > >  so its hard to prove who is the 'more correct " Unschuld uses 5

> phases

> > > but

> > >  others do not so the problem with these terms is that many of the

> > > Western

> > >  scholars " cant agree so the debate goes on.

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Zev,

the point you keep missing,intentionally or not is that this profession

cannot decide whose translations are in fact the " best " to use, you see

there are so many people saying this is the only way ,so many experts but

still no agreement.

Ray Ford

 

 

----

 

Chinese Medicine

Monday, 26 April 2004 5:11:44 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: RE: a little rant on prescriptive acupuncture, weight

loss and intention

 

If you define 'success' as by what you achieve, it does little to

define a profession, or communicate what it is you do to others.

Without accurate terminology or a medical literature that accurately

communicates what the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans or we practice, there

is no way to assure that we know what it is what are studying or

talking about.

 

 

On Apr 25, 2004, at 11:25 AM, salvador march wrote:

 

>

> Well Z'ev,

>

> I would say that the term Ton. and Sed. are neither right nor wrong.

> If

> every one who reads this when they see the word Ton. understand that

> it

> refers to a process of turning a needle clockwise and then removing

> it then

> the word is effective. if on the other hand you wish to highlight

> different energetic states and ascrive terms to them to allow you to

> differentiate a diagnostic modality then you may have a point.

>

> From my perspective I find that I do very well in my practice by the

> simple

> expedient of finding out which meridian is going to be Def (I will

> turn the

> needle clockwise and immediately remove) and which will be in Excess

> ( I

> insert a needle turn anticlockwise and remove after approx 15 - 20

> min). I

> am a country bumkin, I have not written a book (yet), I am not

> versed in

> the classics, I don't read chinese, yet I have a consistent healing

> success

> in the 90% + and this is what it boill down to at the end of the day.

>

> salvador

> www.meridian-qi-acupucnture.com

>

> ___________

>

> >While there may be some debate about choice of terms in cases of wu

> >xing/five phase and the like, tonification and sedation are clearly

> >wrong, and have no relationship to the original Chinese.

> >

> >

> >On Apr 25, 2004, at 3:08 AM, rayford wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > My point is that even translators of Chinese texts disagree with

> each

> > > other

> > > so its hard to prove who is the 'more correct " Unschuld uses 5

> phases

> > > but

> > > others do not so the problem with these terms is that many of the

> > > Western

> > > scholars " cant agree so the debate goes on.

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

--- rayford <rford wrote:

> Zev,

> the point you keep missing,intentionally or not is

> that this profession

> cannot decide whose translations are in fact the

> " best " to use, you see

> there are so many people saying this is the only way

> ,so many experts but

> still no agreement.

 

Heterogeny and pluralism.

Probably some ignorance and politics in there as

well. I don't really mind, generally, that peopel have

differing definitions. I admit that I don't believe in

strict unmoving standards - that would contradict the

yin yang flux, I think. And I wouln't want to do that.

 

Hugo

 

 

 

 

 

__________

Messenger - Communicate instantly... " Ping "

your friends today! Download Messenger Now

http://uk.messenger./download/index.html

[Guest guest]

Ah-hem.

 

Only Nigel Wiseman has produced a dictionary and glossary of Chinese

medical terms. Terminology is based on dictionaries and glossaries, so

his texts win by default. Several of the examples you gave are from

authors who give little or no glossary, no references. So there is no

issue.

 

As far as deciding on translations, one has to have a certain base of

knowledge in order to make such decisions. If students and

practitioners have no background in medical Chinese, they are totally

dependent on the author's term choices, if there is no explanation

given.

 

I have no problem with some 'alternative' translations, such as Dan

Bensky's, but he accurately represents the Chinese terminology to the

best of my knowledge. You can tie his terms back to the Chinese, if

you have enough knowledge to do that.

 

There are variant English terms that can be attached to Chinese and

pinyin, but in the case of tonification and sedation, this is not at

all possible. They do not reflect the original Chinese terms in any

fashion whatsoever. They are simply wrong.

 

 

 

 

On Apr 25, 2004, at 5:54 PM, rayford wrote:

 

> Zev,

> the point you keep missing,intentionally or not is that this

> profession

> cannot decide whose translations are in fact the " best " to use, you

> see

> there are so many people saying this is the only way ,so many experts

> but

> still no agreement.

> Ray Ford

>  

>

> ----

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Monday, 26 April 2004 5:11:44 AM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: RE: a little rant on prescriptive acupuncture,

> weight

> loss and intention

>

> If you define 'success' as by what you achieve, it does little to

> define a profession, or communicate what it is you do to others.

> Without accurate terminology or a medical literature that accurately

> communicates what the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans or we practice, there

> is no way to assure that we know what it is what are studying or

> talking about.

>

>

> On Apr 25, 2004, at 11:25 AM, salvador march wrote:

>

> >

> > Well Z'ev,

> >

> > I would say that the term Ton. and Sed. are neither right nor

> wrong. 

> > If

> > every one who reads this when they see the word Ton. understand that

> > it

> > refers to a process of turning a needle clockwise and then removing

> > it then

> > the word is effective.  if on the other hand  you wish to highlight

> > different energetic states and ascrive terms to them to allow you to

> > differentiate a diagnostic modality then you may have a point.

> >

> > From my perspective I find that I do very well in my practice by the

> > simple

> > expedient of finding out which meridian is going to be Def (I will

> > turn the

> > needle clockwise and immediately remove) and which will be in Excess

> > ( I

> > insert a needle turn anticlockwise and remove after approx 15 - 20

> > min). I

> > am a country bumkin,  I have not written a book (yet), I am not

> > versed in

> > the classics, I don't read chinese, yet I have a consistent healing

> > success

> > in the 90% + and this is what it boill down to at the end of the

> day.

> >

> > salvador

> > www.meridian-qi-acupucnture.com

> >

> > ___________

> >

> > >While there may be some debate about choice of terms in cases of wu

> > >xing/five phase and the like, tonification and sedation are clearly

> > >wrong, and have no relationship to the original Chinese.

> > >

> > >

> > >On Apr 25, 2004, at 3:08 AM, rayford wrote:

> > >

> > > >

> > > >  My point is that even translators of Chinese texts disagree

> with

> > each

> > > > other

> > > >  so its hard to prove who is the 'more correct " Unschuld uses 5

> > phases

> > > > but

> > > >  others do not so the problem with these terms is that many of

> the

> > > > Western

> > > >  scholars " cant agree so the debate goes on.

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

On Apr 25, 2004, at 1:53 AM, salvador march wrote:

 

> Hi Zev, Ray,

>

> This is a new concept to me. I have no problem with the word 'Sedate'.

> having made an accurate diagnosis and chosen point specifically to that

> person I find that when I leave needles in anticlockwise the person

> invariably 'mellows, relaxes, like a weight is been taken off them,

> feels

> sleepy esp if they haven't had enough sleep.

 

It is only new because sedate became a 'standard' term choice by

default. It is still a poor choice, because it has nothing to do with

the original Chinese term.

 

While in some cases, the patient may relax or mellow, in other cases,

drainage is used to relieve physical feelings of distention, pain,

swelling, discomfort or blockage. To 'sedate' these symptoms would

hardly be correct, as no change in blockages occurs in sedation, just

loss of awareness about it.

>

> you mention the word 'repletion' instead of ton. which i can more or

> less

> connect with I am struggling with the defenition of 'vacuity' can

> you

> tell me more?

 

Repletion simply means fullness or strength, as opposed to excess,

which means too much.

 

Vacuity is a vacuum, a lack of substance, presence, or weakness.

 

 

>

>

>

> __________

>>

>> Hey Zev,

>> I do see what you mean point taken,sedation in this case does mean

>> to me

>> drain "

>> Sedation,tonifying etc are terms which hark back to my Western

>> training.I

>> know that Bob Flaws,Wiseman etc want a different standardised

>> approach such

>> as the term repletion and vacuity I guess I am a slow learner.

>> Regards Ray Ford

>>

>> ----

>>

>> Chinese Medicine

>> Sunday, 25 April 2004 4:39:20 PM

>> Chinese Medicine

>> Re: RE: a little rant on prescriptive acupuncture,

>> weight

>> loss and intention

>>

>> I hesitate to belabor this point, but xie4 $B]u(B shouldn't be

>> translated

>> as

>> sedate. Xie4 means to drain, to eliminate repletion. No Chinese

>> dictionary, medical or otherwise, translates xie4 as sedate. Sedate

>> means to put to sleep. Sedation would be an accurate description of

>> injecting procaine chloride into a point, numbing the area.

>>

>>

>> On Apr 24, 2004, at 8:03 AM, rayford wrote:

>>

>>> In my opinion Du 20 is best approached with caution but as it is

>>> (along

>>> withdu14)such a powerfully yang point it an excellent point to

>>> relieve xs

>>> yang and wind often used with sedation technique,I can imagine why

>>> tonifying

>>> it could cause problems.

>>> Regards

>>> Ray Ford

>>>

>>

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

Zev,

You have no problem with Bensky others do some have no problem with Unschuld

seeing him as a unique authority, others still disagree,I can see now that

you have a particular barrow to push(Wiseman) and as you are coming across

as extremely elitist constantly letting us know what YOU approve of I will

leave it there thanks

 

Ray Ford

----

 

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, 27 April 2004 10:46:09 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: RE: a little rant on prescriptive acupuncture, weight

loss and intention

 

Ah-hem.

 

Only Nigel Wiseman has produced a dictionary and glossary of Chinese

medical terms. Terminology is based on dictionaries and glossaries, so

his texts win by default. Several of the examples you gave are from

authors who give little or no glossary, no references. So there is no

issue.

 

As far as deciding on translations, one has to have a certain base of

knowledge in order to make such decisions. If students and

practitioners have no background in medical Chinese, they are totally

dependent on the author's term choices, if there is no explanation

given.

 

I have no problem with some 'alternative' translations, such as Dan

Bensky's, but he accurately represents the Chinese terminology to the

best of my knowledge. You can tie his terms back to the Chinese, if

you have enough knowledge to do that.

 

There are variant English terms that can be attached to Chinese and

pinyin, but in the case of tonification and sedation, this is not at

all possible. They do not reflect the original Chinese terms in any

fashion whatsoever. They are simply wrong.

 

 

 

 

On Apr 25, 2004, at 5:54 PM, rayford wrote:

 

> Zev,

> the point you keep missing,intentionally or not is that this

> profession

> cannot decide whose translations are in fact the " best " to use, you

> see

> there are so many people saying this is the only way ,so many experts

> but

> still no agreement.

> Ray Ford

>

>

> ----

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Monday, 26 April 2004 5:11:44 AM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: RE: a little rant on prescriptive acupuncture,

> weight

> loss and intention

>

> If you define 'success' as by what you achieve, it does little to

> define a profession, or communicate what it is you do to others.

> Without accurate terminology or a medical literature that accurately

> communicates what the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans or we practice, there

> is no way to assure that we know what it is what are studying or

> talking about.

>

>

> On Apr 25, 2004, at 11:25 AM, salvador march wrote:

>

> >

> > Well Z'ev,

> >

> > I would say that the term Ton. and Sed. are neither right nor

> wrong.

> > If

> > every one who reads this when they see the word Ton. understand that

> > it

> > refers to a process of turning a needle clockwise and then removing

> > it then

> > the word is effective. if on the other hand you wish to highlight

> > different energetic states and ascrive terms to them to allow you to

> > differentiate a diagnostic modality then you may have a point.

> >

> > From my perspective I find that I do very well in my practice by the

> > simple

> > expedient of finding out which meridian is going to be Def (I will

> > turn the

> > needle clockwise and immediately remove) and which will be in Excess

> > ( I

> > insert a needle turn anticlockwise and remove after approx 15 - 20

> > min). I

> > am a country bumkin, I have not written a book (yet), I am not

> > versed in

> > the classics, I don't read chinese, yet I have a consistent healing

> > success

> > in the 90% + and this is what it boill down to at the end of the

> day.

> >

> > salvador

> > www.meridian-qi-acupucnture.com

> >

> > ___________

> >

> > >While there may be some debate about choice of terms in cases of wu

> > >xing/five phase and the like, tonification and sedation are clearly

> > >wrong, and have no relationship to the original Chinese.

> > >

> > >

> > >On Apr 25, 2004, at 3:08 AM, rayford wrote:

> > >

> > > >

> > > > My point is that even translators of Chinese texts disagree

> with

> > each

> > > > other

> > > > so its hard to prove who is the 'more correct " Unschuld uses 5

> > phases

> > > > but

> > > > others do not so the problem with these terms is that many of

> the

> > > > Western

> > > > scholars " cant agree so the debate goes on.

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

This kind of response is nothing less than slanderous. I have 'no

barrow to push' as I make nary a cent from my point of view.

 

You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

The issue is not necessarily which English terms are used, obviously

there may be more than one English equivalent for a Chinese term. The

issue is accurately interpreting the Chinese technical term, and

explaining one's term choices in a glossary, footnote or dictionary.

Chinese medicine has a technical language, and too many students and

practitioners still do not know this language.

 

Both Paul and Dan are very aware of Nigel Wiseman's work. Dan uses the

Wiseman dictionary in his program at the Seattle Institute of Oriental

Medicine, and Paul has collaborated with Nigel in recent years on

various projects. I have studied with both Paul and Dan, and while

there may be differences of choice in specific English terms, they are

both advanced medical Chinese language scholars, and I trust their term

choices.

 

Explain to me why you think tonification and sedation are correct term

choices for bu and xie.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Apr 28, 2004, at 4:57 PM, rayford wrote:

 

> Zev,

> You have no problem with Bensky others do some have no problem with

> Unschuld

> seeing him as a unique authority, others still disagree,I can see now

> that

> you have a particular barrow to push(Wiseman) and as you are coming

> across

> as extremely elitist constantly letting us know what YOU approve of I

> will

> leave it there thanks

>

> Ray Ford

>

> On Apr 25, 2004, at 5:54 PM, rayford wrote:

>

> > Zev,

> > the point you keep missing,intentionally or not is that this

> > profession

> > cannot decide whose translations are in fact the " best " to use, you

> > see

> > there are so many people saying this is the only way ,so many

> experts

> > but

> > still no agreement.

> > Ray Ford

> > 

> >

> > ----

> >

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Monday, 26 April 2004 5:11:44 AM

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Re: RE: a little rant on prescriptive acupuncture,

> > weight

> > loss and intention

> >

> > If you define 'success' as by what you achieve, it does little to

> > define a profession, or communicate what it is you do to others.

> > Without accurate terminology or a medical literature that accurately

> > communicates what the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans or we practice,

> there

> > is no way to assure that we know what it is what are studying or

> > talking about.

> >

> >

> > On Apr 25, 2004, at 11:25 AM, salvador march wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > Well Z'ev,

> > >

> > > I would say that the term Ton. and Sed. are neither right nor

> > wrong.

> > > If

> > > every one who reads this when they see the word Ton. understand

> that

> > > it

> > > refers to a process of turning a needle clockwise and then

> removing

> > > it then

> > > the word is effective.  if on the other hand  you wish to

> highlight

> > > different energetic states and ascrive terms to them to allow you

> to

> > > differentiate a diagnostic modality then you may have a point.

> > >

> > > From my perspective I find that I do very well in my practice by

> the

> > > simple

> > > expedient of finding out which meridian is going to be Def (I will

> > > turn the

> > > needle clockwise and immediately remove) and which will be in

> Excess

> > > ( I

> > > insert a needle turn anticlockwise and remove after approx 15 - 20

> > > min). I

> > > am a country bumkin,  I have not written a book (yet), I am not

> > > versed in

> > > the classics, I don't read chinese, yet I have a consistent

> healing

> > > success

> > > in the 90% + and this is what it boill down to at the end of the

> > day.

> > >

> > > salvador

> > > www.meridian-qi-acupucnture.com

> > >

> > > ___________

> > >

> > > >While there may be some debate about choice of terms in cases of

> wu

> > > >xing/five phase and the like, tonification and sedation are

> clearly

> > > >wrong, and have no relationship to the original Chinese.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >On Apr 25, 2004, at 3:08 AM, rayford wrote:

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >  My point is that even translators of Chinese texts disagree

> > with

> > > each

> > > > > other

> > > > >  so its hard to prove who is the 'more correct " Unschuld uses 5

> > > phases

> > > > > but

> > > > >  others do not so the problem with these terms is that many of

> > the

> > > > > Western

> > > > >  scholars " cant agree so the debate goes on.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

That you think I need to explain anything at all to you is the whole point

which you cannot/will not see,its futile so lets move on o.k.

Ray Ford

 

----

 

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, 29 April 2004 10:31:45 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: RE: a little rant on prescriptive acupuncture, weight

loss and intention

 

This kind of response is nothing less than slanderous. I have 'no

barrow to push' as I make nary a cent from my point of view.

 

You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

The issue is not necessarily which English terms are used, obviously

there may be more than one English equivalent for a Chinese term. The

issue is accurately interpreting the Chinese technical term, and

explaining one's term choices in a glossary, footnote or dictionary.

Chinese medicine has a technical language, and too many students and

practitioners still do not know this language.

 

Both Paul and Dan are very aware of Nigel Wiseman's work. Dan uses the

Wiseman dictionary in his program at the Seattle Institute of Oriental

Medicine, and Paul has collaborated with Nigel in recent years on

various projects. I have studied with both Paul and Dan, and while

there may be differences of choice in specific English terms, they are

both advanced medical Chinese language scholars, and I trust their term

choices.

 

Explain to me why you think tonification and sedation are correct term

choices for bu and xie.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Apr 28, 2004, at 4:57 PM, rayford wrote:

 

> Zev,

> You have no problem with Bensky others do some have no problem with

> Unschuld

> seeing him as a unique authority, others still disagree,I can see now

> that

> you have a particular barrow to push(Wiseman) and as you are coming

> across

> as extremely elitist constantly letting us know what YOU approve of I

> will

> leave it there thanks

>

> Ray Ford

>

> On Apr 25, 2004, at 5:54 PM, rayford wrote:

>

> > Zev,

> > the point you keep missing,intentionally or not is that this

> > profession

> > cannot decide whose translations are in fact the " best " to use, you

> > see

> > there are so many people saying this is the only way ,so many

> experts

> > but

> > still no agreement.

> > Ray Ford

> >

> >

> > ----

> >

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Monday, 26 April 2004 5:11:44 AM

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Re: RE: a little rant on prescriptive acupuncture,

> > weight

> > loss and intention

> >

> > If you define 'success' as by what you achieve, it does little to

> > define a profession, or communicate what it is you do to others.

> > Without accurate terminology or a medical literature that accurately

> > communicates what the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans or we practice,

> there

> > is no way to assure that we know what it is what are studying or

> > talking about.

> >

> >

> > On Apr 25, 2004, at 11:25 AM, salvador march wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > Well Z'ev,

> > >

> > > I would say that the term Ton. and Sed. are neither right nor

> > wrong.

> > > If

> > > every one who reads this when they see the word Ton. understand

> that

> > > it

> > > refers to a process of turning a needle clockwise and then

> removing

> > > it then

> > > the word is effective. if on the other hand you wish to

> highlight

> > > different energetic states and ascrive terms to them to allow you

> to

> > > differentiate a diagnostic modality then you may have a point.

> > >

> > > From my perspective I find that I do very well in my practice by

> the

> > > simple

> > > expedient of finding out which meridian is going to be Def (I will

> > > turn the

> > > needle clockwise and immediately remove) and which will be in

> Excess

> > > ( I

> > > insert a needle turn anticlockwise and remove after approx 15 - 20

> > > min). I

> > > am a country bumkin, I have not written a book (yet), I am not

> > > versed in

> > > the classics, I don't read chinese, yet I have a consistent

> healing

> > > success

> > > in the 90% + and this is what it boill down to at the end of the

> > day.

> > >

> > > salvador

> > > www.meridian-qi-acupucnture.com

> > >

> > > ___________

> > >

> > > >While there may be some debate about choice of terms in cases of

> wu

> > > >xing/five phase and the like, tonification and sedation are

> clearly

> > > >wrong, and have no relationship to the original Chinese.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >On Apr 25, 2004, at 3:08 AM, rayford wrote:

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > My point is that even translators of Chinese texts disagree

> > with

> > > each

> > > > > other

> > > > > so its hard to prove who is the 'more correct " Unschuld uses 5

> > > phases

> > > > > but

> > > > > others do not so the problem with these terms is that many of

> > the

> > > > > Western

> > > > > scholars " cant agree so the debate goes on.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Ray,

 

There is no need to pigeon hole people into what you perceive as their

character. We discuss TCM not other practitioner's character. Please reframe

from making any comments about other members that would cause offence.

 

Thank you

 

Attilio

 

(moderator)

 

 

rayford [rford]

29 April 2004 00:58

Chinese Medicine

Re: RE: a little rant on prescriptive acupuncture, weight

loss and intention

 

 

Zev,

you are coming across as extremely elitist

 

Ray Ford

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio, Ray and Z'ev,

 

Thanks for the peace making, Attilio. I'm quite interested in the discussion

that Z'ev presents. Getting some insight into the terms that Wiseman and Bensky

present is useful to me as I go forward in my understanding. While I've been a

college instructor for nearly two decades, I'm the first to take the position of

student in anyone else's classroom. Please carry on with the terminology

discussion. For those not intrigued by the presentation, it takes less time to

delete the messages than it does to write unkind comments to the professor.

Some of us actually want to be in this classroom.

 

With gratitude and respect,

Emmanuel Segmen

-

Attilio D'Alberto

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, April 28, 2004 10:06 PM

RE: RE: a little rant on prescriptive acupuncture, weight

loss and intention

 

 

Ray,

 

There is no need to pigeon hole people into what you perceive as their

character. We discuss TCM not other practitioner's character. Please reframe

from making any comments about other members that would cause offence.

 

Thank you

 

Attilio

 

(moderator)

 

rayford [rford]

29 April 2004 00:58

Chinese Medicine

Re: RE: a little rant on prescriptive acupuncture, weight

loss and intention

 

 

Zev,

you are coming across as extremely elitist

 

Ray Ford

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio,

My comment was that Zev was " coming across as... " not he is being placed in

any pigeon hole, I take your comments on board though and wholeheartedly

apologise to Zev ,Ill bow out of the discussion too as I dont think this is

a good forum to discuss this issue.

Regards Ray Ford

 

----

 

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, 29 April 2004 3:09:00 PM

Chinese Medicine

RE: RE: a little rant on prescriptive acupuncture, weight

loss and intention

 

Ray,

 

There is no need to pigeon hole people into what you perceive as their

character. We discuss TCM not other practitioner's character. Please reframe

from making any comments about other members that would cause offence.

 

Thank you

 

Attilio

 

(moderator)

 

 

rayford [rford]

29 April 2004 00:58

Chinese Medicine

Re: RE: a little rant on prescriptive acupuncture, weight

loss and intention

 

 

Zev,

you are coming across as extremely elitist

 

Ray Ford