Is ORDER of needling important in clinical outcome in acupuncture?

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio, Vito & All,

 

Re the order of acupuncturing points for weight loss, I wrote:

> I doubt if the ORDER of needling has anything to do with the

> clinical outcome. Have other Listers comments on whether or not

> ORDER of needling influences results?

 

Attilio replied:

> I don't believe that ... the ... acupuncturist specialist ... would

> say puncturing the points in the order that she did, has any

> particular benefit to the patient. However, I believe that they do.

> I also believe in symbolism as a powerful tool ... in medicine. ...

> using powerful symbols in AP ... can have a strong positive benefit

> to patients. If you puncture CV12, CV10, CV06, CV04, SP15, ST24,

> ST26] in that order makes a cross. Another example is to puncture

> needles so that a triangle is made, a very useful and powerful tool

> which I've seen used to great benefit in clinical practice.

 

Attilio, in some situations I also accept the power (significance for

me and the patient) of symbols. However, I am not sure that the

ORDER of needling is important because from any given pattern of

points, the SAME SYMBOL can be made whatever the ORDER of

the needling! IMO, choosing correct points is more important than

the order of needling in most cases.

 

As regards building correct points into symbols, different symbols

have different significance for different cultures and traditions.

 

A single point (Unity), straight line (2 or more points), triangle,

cross (<|>-), X, circle (Infinity, no beginning, no end), and the Greek

symbols for Alpha and Omega may have good significance for

Christians. However, those symbols may have less, no, or adverse

significance for non-Christians. A 6-point star (Star of David) and a

5-point star (Pentagram and symbol of the 5-Phases) probably

have very different significance for Jewish people and those

interested in Wicca or Druidism. Points in the shape of a spiral,

snake-, eagle feather-, square, rectangle, etc can have significance

for different traditions.

 

Vito replied:

> I use a certain order of needling in case of Shi or Xu in a certain

> part of the body. For instance, in a stress syndrome with excess

> (GB Qi Shi, or LV Qi Shi) in upper part, I use FIRST acupoints like

> GB34 in order to Descend Qi, and THEN acupoints like TH06 and/or

> HT07.

 

Vito, I know that some practtioners and texts say that order of

needling is important. For example, in 5-Phase theory, one could

balance a case with LV Yang Shi, SP Xu, ST Shi and LU Xu as

follows:

 

1. Reinforce SP Wood Pt (SP01 ) to draw the excess from LV via

the Ko Cycle; This balances LV and SP.

 

2. Reinforce LU Earth Pt (LU09) to fill LU from SP via the Sheng

Cycle. This balances LU but drains SP.

 

3. Reinforce SP at its Luo-Passage Pt (SP04). This balances the

induced SP Xu by draining the excess from ST, thus balancing ST.

 

However, one can get the same result by:

 

1. Reinforce SP at its Luo-Passage Pt (SP04). This balances the

SP Xu by draining the excess from ST, thus balancing ST.

 

2. Reinforce LU Fire Pt (LU10). This balances LU by draining from

HT via the Ko Cycle. This creates a temporary HT Xu.

 

3. Reinforce HT Wood Pt. This balances HT and LV by draining the

excess from LV.

 

> I think that this order of needling influences results.

 

I do not doubt the sincerity of your opinion, or that of other

practitioners who feel that way.

 

May I ask the BASIS for that opinion, i.e. have you seen many

cases where a different order of needling gave poor results, and

when you changed the order [using the SAME POINTS] the result

was clearly better?

 

The reason for my question is that I have not seen any controlled

research that confirms the claim that order of needling points is

important.

 

Does any other Listers know of such research? If yes, can you give

references?

 

..

Best regards,

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Phil,

 

I believe that symbolism is a fundamental aspect in ALL situations

and not just religious and can be effectively used in medicine. The

weight lost points, punctured in order I gave, produces the

Christian cross. If you use the symbol with the intent, i.e. you

know the symbol your using and what it means to you, then it can be

an effective tool. Yes, symbols mean different things to different

people, but it's the intent you put into it and your interpretation

of that symbol when used that's important.

 

Attilio

 

" " <@e...> wrote:

> Attilio, in some situations I also accept the power (significance

for me and the patient) of symbols. However, I am not sure that the

> ORDER of needling is important because from any given pattern of

> points, the SAME SYMBOL can be made whatever the ORDER of

> the needling! IMO, choosing correct points is more important than

> the order of needling in most cases.

[Guest guest]

Attilio

 

Doesn't this mean that the symbol is actually irrelevant, as it is

the intention used when needling that is important.

 

Mark Burrows

 

Chinese Medicine , " Attilio

DAlberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

> Hi Phil,

>

> I believe that symbolism is a fundamental aspect in ALL situations

> and not just religious and can be effectively used in medicine.

The

> weight lost points, punctured in order I gave, produces the

> Christian cross. If you use the symbol with the intent, i.e. you

> know the symbol your using and what it means to you, then it can

be

> an effective tool. Yes, symbols mean different things to different

> people, but it's the intent you put into it and your

interpretation

> of that symbol when used that's important.

>

> Attilio

>

[Guest guest]

No because the symbol increases or magnifies the intent.

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio

 

<Chinese Traditional Medicine>

Chinese Traditional Medicine

 

 

mark_burrows_01 [markburrows]

22 April 2004 12:29

Chinese Medicine

Re: Is ORDER of needling important in clinical outcome in

acupuncture?

 

 

Attilio

 

Doesn't this mean that the symbol is actually irrelevant, as it is

the intention used when needling that is important.

 

Mark Burrows

 

Chinese Medicine , " Attilio

DAlberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

> Hi Phil,

>

> I believe that symbolism is a fundamental aspect in ALL situations

> and not just religious and can be effectively used in medicine.

The

> weight lost points, punctured in order I gave, produces the

> Christian cross. If you use the symbol with the intent, i.e. you

> know the symbol your using and what it means to you, then it can

be

> an effective tool. Yes, symbols mean different things to different

> people, but it's the intent you put into it and your

interpretation

> of that symbol when used that's important.

>

> Attilio

>

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Attilio

 

Not for me

 

Mark

 

Chinese Medicine , " Attilio

D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

> No because the symbol increases or magnifies the intent.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Attilio

>

> <Chinese Traditional Medicine>

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>

>

> mark_burrows_01 [markburrows@s...]

> 22 April 2004 12:29

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Is ORDER of needling important in clinical

outcome in

> acupuncture?

>

>

> Attilio

>

> Doesn't this mean that the symbol is actually irrelevant, as it is

> the intention used when needling that is important.

>

> Mark Burrows

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Attilio

> DAlberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

> > Hi Phil,

> >

> > I believe that symbolism is a fundamental aspect in ALL

situations

> > and not just religious and can be effectively used in medicine.

> The

> > weight lost points, punctured in order I gave, produces the

> > Christian cross. If you use the symbol with the intent, i.e. you

> > know the symbol your using and what it means to you, then it can

> be

> > an effective tool. Yes, symbols mean different things to

different

> > people, but it's the intent you put into it and your

> interpretation

> > of that symbol when used that's important.

> >

> > Attilio

> >

>

>

>

>

> Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear,

religious,

> spam messages,flame another member or swear.

>

> To change your email delivery settings,

> Chinese Medicine/

click 'edit my

> membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

>

> If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop

being

> delivered.

>

>

>

>

> _____

>

>

[Guest guest]

Surely intent matters to the practitioner as a check and balance for

the purpose of the treatment - if the practitioner verbalizes the

intent then the patient may also add to the intent and subsequent

outcome.

 

For symbols to add to the outcome of treatment - they would surely

have to have the same relevance for both practitioner and patient -

otherwise they may be counterproductive!

 

The sequence of needling for the weight loss - seems to me to be of

import as it follows the digestive process and supports the

transformation and transportation of the spleen. As with 4 needle

protocols, surely practicality, process and logic have relevance in

point sequence?

 

Kayte

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " mark_burrows_01 "

<markburrows@s...> wrote:

> Attilio

>

> Not for me

>

> Mark

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Attilio

> D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

> > No because the symbol increases or magnifies the intent.

> >

> > Kind regards

> >

> > Attilio

> >

> > <Chinese Traditional Medicine>

> > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> >

> >

> > mark_burrows_01 [markburrows@s...]

> > 22 April 2004 12:29

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Re: Is ORDER of needling important in clinical

> outcome in

> > acupuncture?

> >

> >

> > Attilio

> >

> > Doesn't this mean that the symbol is actually irrelevant, as it

is

> > the intention used when needling that is important.

> >

> > Mark Burrows

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , " Attilio

> > DAlberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

> > > Hi Phil,

> > >

> > > I believe that symbolism is a fundamental aspect in ALL

> situations

> > > and not just religious and can be effectively used in

medicine.

> > The

> > > weight lost points, punctured in order I gave, produces the

> > > Christian cross. If you use the symbol with the intent, i.e.

you

> > > know the symbol your using and what it means to you, then it

can

> > be

> > > an effective tool. Yes, symbols mean different things to

> different

> > > people, but it's the intent you put into it and your

> > interpretation

> > > of that symbol when used that's important.

> > >

> > > Attilio

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear,

> religious,

> > spam messages,flame another member or swear.

> >

> > To change your email delivery settings,

> > Chinese Medicine/

> click 'edit my

> > membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

> >

> > If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop

> being

> > delivered.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > _____

> >

> >